Discuss Detroit Archives - Beginning January 2006 Kilpatrick reaches deal with Unions Previous Next
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Bob
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Username: Bob

Post Number: 1002
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 152.163.100.8
Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 12:10 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kilpatrick reaches deal with unions.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20060523/NEW S11/60523007
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Bibs
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Username: Bibs

Post Number: 493
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.159.18
Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 12:20 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One of the perks of it this deal; Union members will have access to the red navigator on weekends! ;)
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Upinottawa
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Username: Upinottawa

Post Number: 380
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 198.103.184.76
Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 12:23 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have heard that those who ratify early will get their picture taken with that dancing Pistons kid....

Seriously: I hope this is more than just a bandage deal.
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Merchantgander
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Username: Merchantgander

Post Number: 1792
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 150.198.150.244
Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 8:50 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20060524/NEW S01/605240413

This should be interesting.
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Danny
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Username: Danny

Post Number: 4184
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 141.217.173.162
Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 9:07 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

KING KWAME signed the MAGNA CARTA for Detroit city unions. Put the on the Detroit News headlines.

(Message edited by danny on May 24, 2006)
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Wilus1mj
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Username: Wilus1mj

Post Number: 66
Registered: 05-2005
Posted From: 216.111.89.3
Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 9:44 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It still doesn't deal with the long term problem of the increasing costs of providing Pensions and Health Careto retirees. I don't understand why cities don't transition to 401K and Health Care Savings Plans.
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Merchantgander
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Username: Merchantgander

Post Number: 1793
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 150.198.150.244
Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 9:51 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

KK has been pushing for 401Ks.
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Ilovedetroit
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Username: Ilovedetroit

Post Number: 2288
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 63.149.5.130
Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 10:04 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Better deal than the deal Dennis Archer had where he gave everything away -including loweringthe pension vestment from 10 years to 8 so now more employees are vested and cost more money in the long run. He also bloated the workforce by having the highest hiring levels ever for a mayor to over 21,000.

We are moving the right way at least for now.
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Oldredfordette
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Username: Oldredfordette

Post Number: 758
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 68.60.177.56
Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 10:50 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's so much easier to rob retired workers with 401K's.
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Ndavies
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Username: Ndavies

Post Number: 1837
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 129.9.163.105
Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 12:57 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

It's so much easier to rob retired workers with 401K's.




Bullshit. It's much easier to rob people if they have pension plans. Ask the workers at great lakes steel where their pension plans went when the company went bankrupt. A 401K plan belongs to the worker, is controlled by the worker and cannot be taken away by the employer for any circumstances.
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Gambling_man
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Username: Gambling_man

Post Number: 746
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 199.178.193.5
Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 2:38 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I had asked myself that question for many years, a 401K belongs to the employee, can be moved, and gives them far greater flexibility.....so why haven't more cities adopted it? The answer is simple, my friends......Unions. A great deal of a union's power stems from their humongous pension funds, and their financing and influencing abilities from it(see political contributions/kickbacks/union construction/garbage contracts.....the list goes on).
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Southwestmap
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Username: Southwestmap

Post Number: 477
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 64.79.90.206
Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 3:05 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think there may be another pertinent reason why municipal unions oppose 401-K's as replacement for pensions: pensions are defined benefit plans and considerably more secure than 401K's. I have both. Although I am an educated person, I can't keep up very well with the market. I make poor decisions about my 401K. And sometimes the 401K people make poor decisions, as when they offered 20th century funds and those were sanctioned for some kind of cheating.

My pension will be the safeguard of my retirement. The 401K sometimes loses as much as 30% of the money I put into it.

So maybe its not pure evil greed that keeps the unions pro-pension. Maybe its partly their fiduciary concern for the members who hope to have a retirement account.
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Ndavies
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Username: Ndavies

Post Number: 1840
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 129.9.163.105
Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 3:20 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If your 401k plan took a 30 percent hit so did those pension plans. They both invest in exactly the same kind of plans. It's the reason so many pension plans became underfunded in the last 5 years.

Do you really trust the company you work for to do a better job of managing your investments than you can? I sure as hell don't.

Watch what happens to the air line and Delphi pensions before they come out of bankruptcy. They will be pawned off on the feds for pennies on the dollar. It happened in the steel industry, the mining industry and is now happening to the auto and airline industries.

The company you work for may go out of business before you can collect your almighty pension. This will totally gut your pension plan, leaving you with what's left of social security.
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Southwestmap
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Username: Southwestmap

Post Number: 478
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 64.79.90.206
Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 3:24 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I do trust the investment advisors. Actually, our pension is overfunded and will pay off for me.

As for those pensions you mentioned and the many others that have been devalued by corporate manipulation - to my mind they are the pay-offs for the anti-union sentiment you express, which has gutted union power to protect workers.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 7464
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.159.19
Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 3:29 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Southwest - If your union pension fund is over performing wouldn't you just want to move your 401K dollars into the same funds?

Granted that wouldn't make sense from a financial plan of diversification but if one is performing so well and the other is performing so poorly it may make sense for you.
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Southwestmap
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Username: Southwestmap

Post Number: 479
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 64.79.90.206
Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 3:29 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I remember this episode: the Board of my company was thinking of reorganizing our pension plan about ten years ago because it is over-funded. The ownership hoped to cash out the pension and get their hands on the money. A voice of reason was the Teamster member of the Board who refused to sanction that action. I have never forgotten that he stood up for the average guy working here. The others could only see the cash sitting in the pension fund (that's when the stock market was great) and really didn't care what happened to the workers. Afer all, we should all be as smart as them and employ our own personal financial advisors, shouldn't we!
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Southwestmap
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Username: Southwestmap

Post Number: 480
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 64.79.90.206
Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 3:30 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

401 K's only let you invest in the funds they buy. You can't just make the decisions yourself.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 7466
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.159.19
Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 3:35 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They more than likely have funds that target the same markets such as blue chip, moderate growth, foreign, etc.

Glad to hear that the union guy stuck up for the pension. Managment should not be able to take money out or shift pension funds.
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Gambling_man
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Username: Gambling_man

Post Number: 747
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 199.178.193.5
Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 4:40 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jt1, don't however, forget that in a "defined benefit plan" (there are also defined contribution plans as well-for southwest)...the benefit is defined.....which means that if the fund is "underfunded"....(either not enough contributions, or the investments they have made perform poorly), the company or municipalities have to make up for the shortfall.....I would say that if the fund is "overfunded", the municipality or company SHOULD be able to keep the money.
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Southwestmap
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Username: Southwestmap

Post Number: 481
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 64.79.90.206
Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 4:44 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sometimes the stock market is up and sometimes it is down. The company shouldn't be able to withdraw the overfunding when times are good.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 7475
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.159.19
Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 4:44 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Shouldn't there be consideration to the fact that there are ebbs and flows in pension funds. Taking out the extra when it is overfunded puts the fund in a bad situation when it is under funded.

I am just guessing but wouldn't they want to ensure that they do not put themselves in the situation of owing money when times get a little tighter. Similar in thought to the concept that companies and cities should look to cut costs when they are doing better than usual.
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Trainman
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Username: Trainman

Post Number: 36
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 152.163.100.8
Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 10:28 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

PRIVATIZE the Detroit Department of Transportation. Let the free market system work and serve the taxpayers instead of raising taxes for more gross incompetence and over paid top transit officials who do nothing but drive around in big cars.
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Mcp001
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Username: Mcp001

Post Number: 2185
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 69.14.135.95
Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 6:18 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Careful Trainman, those are fightin' words to some of the forumers here.
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Trainman
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Username: Trainman

Post Number: 38
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 9:44 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The DARTA agreement is presently anti-union. It is in the best interest of the vast majority of voters to reject county and local tax increases for mass transit at this time.

DARTA and its supporters have rejected industry supports that could pay for mass transit without tax increases should state and federal funds be protected.
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Dougw
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Username: Dougw

Post Number: 1160
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.73.202.124
Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 12:12 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One other advantage of 401Ks is that a person's fund is directly paid into. In other words, you can't have a situation where the current workers are paying for the current retirees pensions (which can be a disaster if a company shrinks in size).
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Trainman
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Username: Trainman

Post Number: 42
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 64.12.116.204
Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 9:36 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

EXACTLY, that's why the petition drive is to restore over $90 Million per in year in operating subsidies. But this is rejected as BULLSHIT by SEMCOG.

http://savethefueltax.org

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