  Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 1791 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=2006605240414 | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4185 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 141.217.173.162 |
Dispicable!!! All Unions DOESN'T discriminate against any minorities. Capitalists, Imperialists and Non-Unions do. (Message edited by danny on May 24, 2006) | ||
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 2641 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.167.58.162 |
A key sentence. "We have 'facts' on unions, but not on us." | ||
Mthouston Member Username: Mthouston Post Number: 86 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 63.77.247.130 |
Take a look here http://www.sourcewatch.org/ind ex.php?title=Center_for_Union_ Facts This will tell you who is behind the web site. This guy Rick Berman is in bed with some interesting characters. A who's who of anti-worker groups. | ||
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine Post Number: 1072 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 198.208.159.18 |
according to this, http://www.sourcewatch.org/ind ex.php?title=Rick_Berman , he opposed the American Disabilities Act, wtf! | ||
Gambling_man Member Username: Gambling_man Post Number: 742 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 199.178.193.5 |
What's wrong with opposing the American Disabilities Act? Is every person here a complete communist? Why do you want the government to tell you what to do all the time? Does that make you feel more comfortable? That big brother is watching you? I just don't get it....... | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 2563 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 68.230.22.99 |
Voice from behind curtain: "Do not discuss unions! No objections allowed! Be positive! No negatives! You must belong!" My favorite quote: "This guy Rick Berman is in bed with some interesting characters." There's plenty of blame to go around on both sides here, but I suggest heading over to the Hoffa thread and noting how many times the word "union" is used. Gosh, a little competition and discourse that allows union members to listen and decide for themselves - we certainly can't have that! Big brother knows what's best for the little guy, he's too ignorant to think thru anything except his job. Thought police & censorship = more trouble & less jobs for Michigan. | ||
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine Post Number: 1073 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 198.208.159.18 |
are you f'ing serious? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 742 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Forbes had a listing yesterday of the ten hottest jobs predicted for the next 20 years, the ten jobs that wouldn't be around in 20 years, and the ten that are timeless. Union leader and construction workers are two that are expected to be long gone, robot mechanics and soldiers would be hot, and politicians are prostitutes are timeless... (Message edited by LivernoisYard on May 24, 2006) | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 757 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 68.60.177.56 |
It really is a despicable pack of lies. They've been running their crap in the NYTimes for a couple of months now, this is their first movement locally. Lying. Scumbags. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7445 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
Karl - While many of us are left leaning you would be very surprised to know that there are a decent number of posters here that do not support the unions. | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 1796 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
There is just as much corruption in unions as there is in Corp. America and if you don't believe that take your rose colored glasses off. In fact a union official just got convicted this week in MI because he prolonged a strike because the company wouldn't hire a friend or relative. Greed exists in everywhere, why the hell do you think unions were started. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 2565 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 68.230.22.99 |
Jt1 - perhaps. The fact remains that until the elephant in the living room is dealt with, areas of the country that require workers to be members of unions will flounder. When auto companies & many workers were centralized in one place (with no competition except amongst themselves) unions served a real and viable role. Later, we've seen that fat pensions and cradle-to-grave healthcare for all (non-union as well) is unsustainable in a truly competitive market unless very carefully crafted and funded for the future (not yet attained & proven long-term in any company or country) As a result, startups and established companies (now much more willing and able to move and relocate) do what they've always done: minimize costs, maximize profits. Always have, always will - one of the hallmarks of this great country. Whining workers (union or not) are left in their cribs while companies look for the best, brightest, and most willing to work. As an employer in the short term, I could care less if my workers are unionized, as long as the work gets done and I'm profitable. It is the long term that is the concern - increased competition from companies with lower costs (unionized or not) are the nightmare. Companies have found that in the long run, being free to change with the times overrides any desire to work with unions unless the unions can be as flexible as the market requires. Jt1, I would not be surprised if you know and perhaps agree with these issues. It is the classic marketplace, but with trends & cycles running at a much faster pace and a broader workforce from which to choose. Along with "workers, unite" we must now say "workers, compete." | ||
Southwestmap Member Username: Southwestmap Post Number: 476 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 64.79.90.206 |
Merchant - there is certainly corruption in unions as there is in any human endeavor. But union soidarity has a high aspirational goal and it is that goal that makes me support union efforts even when there is venality and weakness. And, just to show my true colors: I am Irish- Catholic, a professional and no one in my family back at least three generations has worn a blue collar or belonged to a union. My support is ethical and philsophical, not motivated by personal gain. You once mentioned, I believe, that you were educated in a Catholic school. You should check the Church teaching on union organizing. The Church has taught that workers have a right and duty to organize. See "Rerum Novarum." | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7451 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
Karl - If you check in the archives you will see that the two of us (kinda scary) agree on unions and their debilitating effects on thier respective industries. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 949 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.221.93.11 |
Ah, Jt1 and Karl, Why don't you two get a room where you can spoon and coo together...preferably a nonunion hotel. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 2569 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 68.230.22.99 |
Jt1 - I'll hafta take your word for it, I'm afraid the reality of that might do me in. I'm told by those on these threads that I'm old, ya know. I'm gonna let it slowly sink in and try to consider it an honor  | ||
Mthouston Member Username: Mthouston Post Number: 87 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 63.77.247.130 |
"Companies have found that in the long run, being free to change with the times overrides any desire to work with unions unless the unions can be as flexible as the market requires." Karl your are right. Unions do need to be flexable, but the problem seems to be these days is that the unions are taking the blame and being forced to give up pay and benefits because of bad decision by Managment. Just look at Northwest, GM, Delphi, Ford, DTE Energy. Unions just work with the tools they are given. | ||
Johnnny5 Member Username: Johnnny5 Post Number: 255 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 71.227.95.4 |
"Greed exists in everywhere, why the hell do you think unions were started." Are you suggesting that workers formed unions because they were "greedy"? | ||
Warriorfan Member Username: Warriorfan Post Number: 368 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 68.43.81.191 |
Remember when the UAW wouldn't let United States Marines (whose recruiting depot was next door) park in a UAW parking lot if they were driving a foreign car or had a "pro-Bush" bumper sticker on their car? The Unions aren't always the good guys, they can cross the line of greed and selfishness just like big business and they have frequently done just that in the last 4-5 years or so. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 950 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.221.93.11 |
Not letting foreign cars park in a UAW lot is a bad thing? I'd crucify them if they allowed it. Let's get off the idea that anyone who puts on a uniform is automatically a saint. Please. A soldier can be held accountable for using his money in an unpatriotic way just as much as anybody. And please, save your breath on the "who can tell where a car is from" posts. Don't bother. If it isn't an American car company, the profits go to Japan, or Europe, or Korea. | ||
Track75 Member Username: Track75 Post Number: 2357 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 12.75.21.56 |
You know something's wrong with unions when venerable liberal George McGovern writes an op-ed about unions going too far these days. http://detroitnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20060524/O PINION01/605240308/1008 | ||
Warriorfan Member Username: Warriorfan Post Number: 369 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 68.43.81.191 |
Pffft, Your post is the reason why anti-union mentality exists. I have no problem with the UAW excluding foreign cars from their parking lots, but they could make an exception for Marines. You know, those flawed, imperfect guys who put on a uniform and are ready to fight and die at a moment's notice so guys like you don't have to? The day that you take a job where you might have to shed your blood on some foreign battlefield is that day that you can diminsh what those men do. It's called respect. In your world, it is "unpatriotic" to drive a foreign car but it's perfectly OK to take a dump on United States Marines because you don't approve of their choice of automobile or their political affiliation. Of course, the UAW didn't see a problem with it just like you didn't see a problem with it, until they realized that public opinion (as well as many of the rank and file UAW) was completely against them and they were forced to reverse their policy. Good wages and working conditions are no longer the concern of unions, they are more concerned with politics and using their labor monopoly to extort more and more and more until the companies they are extorting from go bankrupt or just pack up and leave. Delphi's next on the union chopping block, I guess in Pffft's world, $64 an hour in wages and benefits is a "fair wage" for somebody with just a high school diploma doing an unskilled manual labor job. But that's fine, Union greed will only put themselves out of a job. Co-pays and $20-$25 an hour is fair for turning screws and tightening bolts, but the Unions would rather strike than settle for anything less than the upper-middle class lifestyle that they have become accustomed to, how could they possibly make payments on their Hummer H2s if they take a paycut? | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 951 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.221.93.11 |
Putting on a uniform does not preclude you from the world of ethics and morality. People in uniform have done great things, and terrible things. This post-Gulf War mentality that, as soon as you see a uniform, all sense goes out the window baffles me. People in previous generations understood that there are all manner of humanity who wear the uniform of our military, some heroic, some much less so. Being a Marine should not exempt you from the ethical standards the rest of us live by, sorry. Ah, George McGovern. A loser in 1972, and now the right-wingers are trotting him out as some hero of the left? They'll have to do better than that. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 952 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.221.93.11 |
p.s. With all their faults, unions are still the best way for the average working person to have any sort of level playing field against the massive international corporations that employ him or her. You can come up with reports of malfeisance against unions and corporations, but it's unions that fight for the countless, faceless minions. Daddy Corporation is going to try to lowball you, cut your benefits and throw your job to India. | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 1798 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
Pfft what does that have to do with buying a foreign car? Your idiotic thinking is why unions are a thing of the past. There is nothing unethical or immoral about buying a foreign car. The only thing that is unethical or immoral is your thinking. Just so you know I have never owned a foreign car. | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 1799 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
You want to level the playing field how about obtaining a useful skill that is needed. It works for millions of people everyday. | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 313 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 129.9.163.234 |
time for the "look for the Union label" jingle commercials to run again. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1044 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 69.129.146.186 |
Merchant will gladly let you clean the shit off his toilet for $6/hr (or $6/day if you don't have your green card) | ||
Warriorfan Member Username: Warriorfan Post Number: 372 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 68.43.81.191 |
I had no idea what he was trying to say either, Merchantgander. What "ethics and morality" have to do with what type of car you drive is beyond me, these union guys live in some kind of fantasy world where they are single-handedly keeping the U.S. from adopting feudalism. Nevermind that fact that 88% of the American workforce is non-union, and that over the past 40 years, the percentage of union workers in America has gone down while the average wage of blue-collar American workers keeps going up (and that's WITH taking inflation into account). Nevermind the fact that we have labor laws now that guarantee the things that unions were created to fight for, like workplace safety laws, child labor laws, 40-hour work week and overtime laws, etc. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7459 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
Given Warrior's numbers above I wonder how much the cost of specific consumer items are raised due to pay being above market for union employments. Based upon that all consumers pay more to subsidize the higher pay of 12% of workers. Doesn't seem too fair to me. Pfffft - Do you make sure to research every purchase to be certain that you are only supporting pro-union businesses? | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 953 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.221.93.11 |
Riiiight, tell those nonunion Walmart workers that they have "rights" to overtime, a 40-hour work week, etc. Maybe they can get the NLRB to help them (laughing hysterically) ... | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7460 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
Wal Mart seems to be doing very well in Michigan, the land of unions. Are there perhaps some union people supporting Wal Mart? ** I personally refuse to enter Wal Mart due to the wages they pay and the model they run their business on. I don't support Wal Mart but I also don't support the other extreme. | ||
Esd Member Username: Esd Post Number: 16 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 160.109.103.190 |
Perhaps Pffft believes that there should be no special rules for people in uniform, what the hell this has to do with unions I have no fucking idea. Perhaps this is how the union brain works? | ||
7milekid Member Username: 7milekid Post Number: 26 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 68.41.222.28 |
Yes there is something unethical about buying a foriegn car, the fact that it takes the sale away from one american company, employing american workers, IN AMERICA. You people that don't understand this disgust me, you are so filled up with government propeganda saying oh hey toyota employs 93 workers in hicksville tennesee and plans on investing more soon. F THAT, Ford rouge used to employ 110,000 in one location but thanks to communists like merchantgander who want to blame the worker for everything i guess its something we are just going to have to deal with. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7462 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
I understand your argument 7mile but I suspect that many people only apply that mentality to cars. Do you go out of your way to check the history/product locations of all of your purchases? DO you buy imported food? Food or electrical items that are made by international conglomerates? People make that argument with respect to cars but rarely follow through with any other purchases. Proud owner of an American Car but do not buy the 'ethical' argument. | ||
Hardhat Member Username: Hardhat Post Number: 125 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.38.22.185 |
When my buying a GM, Ford or DCX vehicle means that I am keeping more Americans at work, damn right "ethics and morality" enter into it. Yes, I think it is ethically the right thing to do to support my countrymen when I spend my money. Here's a new website that sheds some light on how important it is to buy American. It's an economic lesson that applies to Marines as well. http://www.levelfieldinstitute .org/ | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7463 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
I love the talk of ethcis and morality mixed in with comments like
Buying a foreign car is immoral but crucifying someone that does is fine. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 955 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.221.93.11 |
(Sigh) Do they teach metaphor and simile when they home school you, Jt1? | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7465 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
As long as you weren't being literal. Some of the acts I have seen by union members that were sticking up for the union have been pretty bad. Never know how far someone is willing to go to support their 'brothers and sisters' Proudly taught by a union teacher even though I know very few teachers who support their union. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 956 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.221.93.11 |
What is with this bipolar stuff, you're proud to be taught by a union teacher, but of course few people you know support the teacher's union, you drive a union-made car, but you don't think it's an ethical choice. Is guilt entering the picture here, you keep touting these union credentials as if it's going to offset your anti-union ramblings. Doesn't impress me. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7468 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
I don't support the unions. I support the domestic auto companies to keep the profits and jobs here. I want jobs to stay in the US and that is why I support the domestic companies. I however believe that the unions are just as much a part of their decline as poor management. The teacher comment was just me being a smart ass to point out that I know very few teachers that support the teachers unions. Not trying to impress you as we will never see eye to eye on unions. I have seen and dealt with too many petty grievances and seen the worst of union protectionism. I have seen the millions of dollars paid out for the non-sense grievances. The UAW is anti-auto maker and pro union. I know all too many people that seem to believe that they work for the union, not the company that actually pays them. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 957 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.221.93.11 |
Oh, jt1, you're such a smart ass, I guess I was supposed to laugh, huh? Well I know a lot of teachers who support their union. It's in part because teachers are the only ones left these days with decent health insurance. Just please, leave your "union credentials" at home, it subverts your message. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7469 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
Just so all of the pro UAW people have no excuses: Here is a link from the UAW of UAW made goods. I sure hope that you are not buying anything that is not on this list. http://uaw.org/uawmade/index.c fm For those that like beer I hope that you are not drinking anything but the following: Miller Lite Miller Genuine Draft Miller Genuine Draft Light Miller High Life Miller High Life Light Milwaukee’s Best Milwaukee’s Best Light Milwaukee’s Best Ice Leinenkugel’s Sharp’s (non alcoholic) Mickey’s Malt Mickey’s Ice Hamm’s Hamm’s Draft Hamm’s Light Icehouse Miller Lite Ice Red Dog Olde English 800 Henry Weinhard’s Private Reserve Henry Weinhard’s Blue Boar Pale Ale If you are as pro union as you claim then you should not be drinking any beer that is not on this list. (Message edited by jt1 on May 24, 2006) | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 958 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.221.93.11 |
Try for those "who" like beer. Didn't spend enough time with that union teacher, I guess. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7470 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
A sure sign that someone has lost an argument is the old correct spelling/grammar tactic. What do you think of the UAW's following claim: "First, the U.S. economy is facing the most sustained period of long-term unemployment since the 1930s." http://uaw.org/barg/03/index.c fm Now I would expect them to at least accurately report the facts. Feel free to correct the spelling and grammar if you have no rebuttal. | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1368 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.220.230.150 |
Just maybe if the UAW would eliminate(even cut in half) its employee subsidies on cars, the marines could afford those American built cars instead of overpaying on a Grand Am so an UAW employee can get it for $99 a month. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 959 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.221.93.11 |
I guess we're living in a different Michigan, Jt1. Yours has no unemployment, I see lots. I see people defaulting on their mortgages at an unprecedented rate. Feel free to spread your propaganda to someone who's more amenable. Using grammatical English would make your anti-union argument a wee bit more impressive. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7471 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
The UAW claim was for the US, not Michigan. Michigan is hurting and a large part of it is due to the stranglehold that the UAW put on the auto makers. There is a valid reason that plants have migrated south. The UAW put the Big 3 in the situation that forced them to move jobs out of the State of Michigan. We are the most unionized State (I believe) and we have the highest unemployment. This certainly is not a coincidence. I will admit that the Big 3 management also takes some blame for approving such ridiculous contracts when times were better. Your argument that a point is lost due to grammatical flaws shows that you are really grasping at straws. The content is the same and the point is still very clear. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 960 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.221.93.11 |
Nah, Jt1, are you kidding? Companies are never to blame, unions are ALWAYS to blame. If the South is such a hot place to live, why not take the plunge? I hear you can buy a lot of Moon Pies on $5 an hour...NOT LOL... | ||
Bearinabox Member Username: Bearinabox Post Number: 16 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 69.209.136.191 |
What exactly is wrong with blue-collar jobs paying decent wages? Not everyone is cut out to be a professional or an executive, and if they were there wouldn't be nearly enough of those jobs for everyone in America. I think Americans tend to place far too strong an emphasis on a small number of career paths. For those who are competent in management jobs and stimulated by the challenges of that environment, there should be such jobs available, and for people who are more suited to working with their hands and making a product, those jobs should also be open. Why does there have to be a "lazy and stupid" stigma attached to lineworkers? Does your college degree really place you that far above them? We're all people, last time I checked, and we all eat food and pay for it with jobs. And, as much as the unions are flawed and could do with a healthy dose of internal reform, I still think they serve a necessary purpose in this time and place. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7473 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
So Michigan is suffering but you would rather stay here and have your home foreclosed than move and accept a wage that you believe is below you. What happens when the jobs bank and unemployment ends. I guess you can't take one of those low paying jobs. As a union member you are better than that. I have no dependancy upon a dying union. I stay in the area because my family is here. I can assure you that I would have no issues finding a job in any major market. Most of the well paying, professional jobs have moved to the other markets as it is. We can still rely on our unions here in Michigan. It is working so well for the State. The funny thing is that you seem to be of the common union mentality that you deserve a well paying union job and anything else is below you. That works in Michigan and parts of Ohio and Indiana. They are all booming right now, aren;t they? | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 962 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.221.93.11 |
Jt1, "never assume" is a good motto for you to repeat to yourself. I give good value and am paid for it, so I can choose to live in this great state, Michigan. Thank you for your concern, though. p.s. "Professional" and "union worker" are not mutually exclusive. So sorry you're unhappy living in our beautiful state. I think you would be happier eating Moon Pies and winging those non-union dimes you'd be making off a bridge in Tuscaloosa. | ||
Ron Member Username: Ron Post Number: 163 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 66.174.79.234 |
What about the fact that Michigan is TIED FOR 4TH PLACE (With NJ) for union membership (I'm assuming as a percentage of population). The other states are: New York, Hawaii and Alaska, with the following unemployment rates: NY: 4.7% HA: 2.8% AL: 7.0% NJ: 5.1% MI: 7.2% In fact, Hawaii has the nation's LOWEST unemployment rate. Seems as though the unions in MI may not be the sole reason for the state of our economy. Could it be our almost singular reliance on the auto industry? | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7476 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
I can't take this seriously since it is coming from someone who has made a few assumptions on this thread.
Glad to hear but I question how long that option may be there for you or your fellow workers.
It is not the state that I have issues with. I have issues with the SE Michigan region and the city-suburb thing. If the region could work together and bring in other businesses I would be happy to stay. The sad fact is that Michigan as a whole is collapsing. The driver is SE Michigan but the effects will be seen throughout the State. I have seen decent appreciation with my home but it does not compare to other regions of the country. I just do not see Michigan and SE Michigan getting any better.
At least jobs will be there for the future. More than I can say about the State of Michigan. Surely you can't be blind to the fact that the situation in Michigan will not get better for a long time. But why worry about the economic condition of the State when you have your union. Who cares if they continue to force businesses to locate elsewhere as long as you get what you deem a fair wage. | ||
Spartacus Member Username: Spartacus Post Number: 113 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 209.114.251.65 |
Anyone see the WSJ today? They compared wages at the GM Arlington plant with the Toyota San Antonio plant. GM's hourly labor cost (with Benefits) was $81.18 while Toyota's was $35.00. This means that the labor cost at Toyota is $1,000 less per vehicle. Pretty hard to compete under those circumstances. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1045 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 69.129.146.186 |
'AL' is Alabama, not Alaska ('AK', and Hawaii is 'HI') I suspect the error is yours? | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1371 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.220.230.150 |
The decent wage argument is lost when you pay a janitor 74k a year. The union mindset in this state is reason the economy in the state is in the shape it is. | ||
Warriorfan Member Username: Warriorfan Post Number: 373 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 68.43.81.191 |
Factoring in benefits, Union workers at Delphi make $76 an hour. http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20051126/BUS INESS01/511260313/1002/BUSINES S Now is this a "fair wage" for the work they are doing? This isn't brain surgery, anyone with a high school diploma can do this work. I don't hate unions, they serve a purpose, but this Delphi example is another case of Unions getting GREEDY and going too far. Must Delphi go bankrupt because the Unions don't want to compromise and accept anything less than $25 an hour and full benefits/pension to turn screws and tighten bolts? God forbid these Union guys have to take a paycut and forego getting that 60" flat-screen plasma they had their eye on, after all, they are "entitled" to that kind of lifestyle. Fair is fair, co-pays are fair, $20 an hour is fair, these Union guys don't want to settle for "fair", they always want "more." I used to live by a union hall, you'd be surprised at the number of Jags, Hummers H2s, new Corvettes, and other very expensive cars that you would see in the parking lot. Graduating from high school in SE Michigan and getting an unskilled manual labor job does not entitle you to live like a rock star out in Novi, people around here have been so spoiled for so long and now it's biting them in the ass. | ||
Johnnny5 Member Username: Johnnny5 Post Number: 256 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 71.227.95.4 |
"The union mindset in this state is reason the economy in the state is in the shape it is." I guess globalization (aka shipping American manufacturing jobs oversees to raise profit levels), massive increases in health care costs and an unprecedented rise in fuel costs have nothing to do with it. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 748 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Something is terribly out-of-kilter when bolters and snappers make more than engineers and other "skilled" workers at UAW plants. Yup! Seems like a union mindset to me when the UAW cost themselves out of the market when sensible employers entered the marketplace and turned out better products, cheaper. | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 3421 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.208.125.72 |
So who is behind it? They wont give up where they get the $$ from to fund this thing. | ||
7milekid Member Username: 7milekid Post Number: 27 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 68.41.222.28 |
Jt1, I actually do try my best to buy american when it comes too all products. However there are many htings such as clothing or electronics that it is simply impossible to do so. The reason that people often apply this mentality only to automobiles is because it is one of the few products where you have a straight up choice to either buy american or foreign. Yea yea all these fools are gonna come at me and say "oh no its not a straight choice becuase there are foriegn parts in domestics blah blah blah" Im so sick of hearing that. Like a million people have said before, the profits and the jobs stay here when you buy domestic. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7477 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 4.229.99.61 |
I respect your attempts to buy American when you can. | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 315 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 65.185.132.134 |
Years ago the unions stuck together and would boycott and picket any business that didn't hire their own. This was the one thing that got the owner's undivided attention. Shut off the money faucet and you will get their attention. The union members did as the rest of the country in the "me" decade and looked out for number one, and purchased all of the shit that modern life "requires" by shopping price. It became much easier to just strike your EMPLOYER and cause massive losses there to get your way. I work at a large concern here in the metro--all of the engineers and IT people are non-union contractors, and all of the janitors, carpenters,plumbers, millwrights (whatever they do)and "facilities" people are union, and work for the company. It's their way or not at all, everything is a silly f__ing game to get the simplest thing done. | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 1801 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
I think Pssst doesn't really mean buy American when he speaks. What he is really saying is buy union so I can keep my job and make as much money as possible who cares if you have to pay more so I can get more. Psst I only drive DaimlerChryslers is that considered buying American? Psst what is the difference between making a ford here in Michigan and building a Toyota in Alabama? | ||
Bongman Member Username: Bongman Post Number: 1092 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 198.111.56.128 |
Unions operate on very simple premises. There is no such thing as an employee who works for someone else making too much money. When that occurs, it is because of management mistakes, or an economic environment that is skewed to the side of the worker. That's what happened in the auto industry. The employees had too much power to negotiate due to many unique economic factors found in the auto industry. The current negative view of Unionism across this country will change, as it has many times thru the years. Unions have been here since before this country was formed, and are a necessary piece of the economic puzzle. Look at Baseball...before the MLPA, players were literally slaves to be bought and sold by rich people. They make millions a year now...so do the owners, and fans still pay the money to fill the parks. Everyone is happy. The process worked the same way in professional hockey when owner's profits evaporated. The system works. This area will be in an economic decline until wages paid are on a par with the rest of the country. Nothing is going to change that long-term reality. If it doesn't occur, the economy of SE Michigan is doomed. | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 1803 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20060525/BUS INESS07/605250340/1020/BUSINES S WJBK-TV doesn't run ad against unions | ||
7milekid Member Username: 7milekid Post Number: 37 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 68.41.222.28 |
merchantgander, the difference between building a ford in michigan and a toyota in alabama is nothing when it comes to the actual manufacturing process, kudos to toyota for creating jobs in the U.S. but there are many more aspects to automobile production than just assembly. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7485 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
One difference is that GM profits will more than likely stay doemstic where Toyota won't. Those making more money at the respective companies will buy larger items and spend more. Do you want the profits to be spent in Japan or the US? | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7486 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
One difference is that ford profits will more than likely stay doemstic where Toyota won't. Those making more money at the respective companies will buy larger items and spend more. Do you want the profits to be spent in Japan or the US? | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 1810 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
No shit 7milekid that wasn't my point. | ||
7milekid Member Username: 7milekid Post Number: 41 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 68.41.222.28 |
well what exaclty was your point, did you have one? | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 1811 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
Jt1 the profits go where they are need. Which means that it is just as likely that Honda and Toyota will reinvest hear in the US as Ford or GM. Honda and Toyota both have North American HQ in the US. GM and Ford also have HQ in other countries. In fact GM European unit has been doing very well lately but that hasn’t stop then form laying off workers here in the US. There is very little difference between the companies in today’s global economy. A lot parts that go into assembling cars in the US are made outside of the US. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 968 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.141.77.196 |
Honda and Toyota invest in the U.S.? How? They use more Japanese suppliers than American automakers use American suppliers. There is an intense loyalty there, with Japanese industry, plus the Japanese government gives its auto industry all sorts of economic boosts, meanwhile our government does nothing for out auto industry, our American suppliers get no favorite treatment in the U.S. and get shut out by the Asians, all the while we're screaming "open market" and having our lunch eaten. | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 1813 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
My point was that the U.S. citizen that is assembling the Toyota is no less important then the union person assembling the Ford. Sorry I should have been more specific for the slow people. | ||
7milekid Member Username: 7milekid Post Number: 44 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 68.41.222.28 |
ooh zinger! cricket.....cricket......crick et | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7488 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.19 |
I agree with you there Merchant. I was speaking more about the wealth created at the higher ranks and white collar. Much of those people have disposable income and will spend it in their respective economies. Whether that is the US or Japan is the question. At a worker level a job in the US regardless of who supplies it is a good thing. | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1375 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.220.230.150 |
Why it is not huting the rest of the country. Those manufacturing jobs are not leaving the country they are leaving the state to get away from the hard headed unions and they endless supply of demands for unskilled workers. Everyone and everywhere else has adjusted for the higher health care costs and the fuel costs, they may not like it. The union think it is immune from that and should recieve or stay t their current level of benefits and wages. Deplhpi current loses money on every spark plug it makes due to those outragoues benefits and pay. The union has to learn the one lesson many have failed to learn. To survive you have to change. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 969 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.141.77.196 |
You've got to be kidding...I don't know any industry or business that isn't reeling from out of control health costs. How do you "adjust" for something that eats that much of your profits? Not everybody in metro Detroit works for the auto-ers, and there's been a lot of pain to go around. You're utterly ignorant, sj, if you don't know the concessions most unions have had to agree to... The UAW has simply been the last union to have to do it, because they once had the most power, of all the unions. The old-fashioned, "Cadillac" health plan with no co-pays went the way of the do-do bird for 99%of unions long ago, and now the UAW has adjusted as well. This was all achieved in a civil way, at the bargaining table, as both sides realized the old way was too expensive. If you have no firsthand knowledge of what you're opining about, you're just making yourself look stupid. | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 1814 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
Pffft you never answered this question. I only drive DaimlerChryslers is that considered buying American? (Message edited by Merchantgander on May 25, 2006) | ||
7milekid Member Username: 7milekid Post Number: 46 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 68.41.222.28 |
yes a daimler chrysler vehicle is an american vehicle, most of its manufacturing and assembly are located here, the only thing in europe is the world headquarters, and the chrysler division is mostly the resposibility of the brains in auburn hills anyway. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 970 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.141.77.196 |
DCX is on the line, it's an interesting question to pose, MG. I too have driven DCX vehicles, feeling confident that I was driving American. But the co. uses German suppliers to such an extent, it really does act like a German co. in a lot of ways. I'm not saying I don't consider it buying American, but recently I've leaned more in the direction of feeling that buying Ford and GM has more of a benefit to Americans. But I'm not going to beef about anyone driving DCX, better than a Toyota or Honda. Buying DCX has more of a benefit to the U.S. than buying an Asian or European brand. | ||
7milekid Member Username: 7milekid Post Number: 49 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 68.41.222.28 |
name one dcx model that isnt built at at least one assembly plant located in the U.S. Many of the models are produced at numerous plants around the world but i cant think of one that isnt produced here at all. Name another dcx model that isnt comprised of at least 70% american parts. | ||
Johnnny5 Member Username: Johnnny5 Post Number: 259 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 71.227.95.4 |
"Why it is not huting the rest of the country. Those manufacturing jobs are not leaving the country they are leaving the state to get away from the hard headed unions and they endless supply of demands for unskilled workers. " Please tell me what state all the manufacturing jobs are moving to? ( I'll give you a hint, it's no in the United States). Many parts of the counrty have not been affected because they had little or no manufacturing jobs to begin with. | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 8480 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.71.57.39 |
Chrysler 300 and Charger are two. What about the Crossfire? More german parts than a nazi panzer division. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 971 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 70.141.77.196 |
7mile, I believe the PT Cruiser is only built in Mexico, by non-UAW members. | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 1816 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
Every year you can see more and more German influence in Chrysler products. | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 3397 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.212.125.241 |
Pt Cruiser plant: http://www.autointell.com/nao_ companies/daimlerchrysler/chry sler/pt-cruiser/chrysler-pt-cr uiser-make.htm | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1376 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.220.230.150 |
How are they coping, easy the retool their workforce and change health plans. Not demand more or demand the status quo has to be the norm. They survive by changing with the times. The unions have never changed with the times and forgot to tell its members in the 80s that the gains made in the 80s would be need to be reliquished in the 90s and 00s. What concessions, every concession is garbage and does no good to solving the problem. Ask the retirees how well those concessions are working for them. They are concessions to maintain the status quo and even Wall Street will tell you that those concessions are a START not an ending point. Civilized means are not violent strikes or attacking the ones without jobs who take there place during those strikes. The ability to adapt is the greater ability one can have. The modenr day unions have yet ot grab onto this belief and becuase of that these jobs are going elsewhere. The only ignorant person is the who thinks they are above others to call them names. Do you call people retards as well. (Message edited by _sj_ on May 25, 2006) | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1377 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.220.230.150 |
Manufacturing is growing current 3.8% per year, granted Manufacturing is a cycial business, but the average has been the same for the US for about 50 years. Manufacturing is stable. Just like with every industry better technology will lead to fewer jobs, but once again they are steady at around 14-16 million manfacutring jobs each year. | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 763 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 68.60.177.56 |
This discussion is making me nuts. Korean autoworkers are union. German autoworkers are union. The problem with the US auto industry is not their workers, but in the PRODUCT. People don't want the cars. If Ford, GM or DCX would make cars people want to buy, they would do better. If Ford, GM or DCX executives would back off from their unreasonable financial demands, things would be better. Union workers have given up concession after concession and it's never enough. Blaming the workers is bullshit and inaccurate. Having said that, I drive Ford cars. I have a Focus and it gets good gas mileage and is as reliable and cute as can be. I know where my bread is buttered. | ||
Track75 Member Username: Track75 Post Number: 2359 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 12.75.19.41 |
Domestic content for '06 models: http://www.freep.com/misc/fron tpage/06models_20060507.htm Domestic content for '05 models (more complete): http://www.freep.com/misc/fron tpage/05models_20060507.htm "Domestic" is defined as the US and Canada. I guess we bought 'em or something. While, on average, the "domestics" are more "domestic" than the "foreign" cars, there's a LOT of overlap. There's a bunch of Toyotas and Hondas in the 70% - 80% "domestic" range. I get the loyalty to "domestic" manufacturers in the Detroit area. What about the people who live near a transplant in OH, KY, SC, AL, MS or whereever? Should they have more loyalty to the Big 3, their local plant, just unionized plants or what? - track75, driving his Mexican-made Chevy today (61% "domestic") | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 1820 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 207.91.250.131 |
Oldredfordette DCX has been doing just fine. They are building cars people want. |
