  Realitycheck Member Username: Realitycheck Post Number: 329 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 68.41.173.240 |
Highly recommended essay by Clare Pfeiffer Ramsey and Walter Wasacz was posted this morning at Model D: http://www.modeldmedia.com/fea tures/talent47.aspx Vividly written and illustrated combo of a pep talk and vision statement. | ||
Naturalsister Member Username: Naturalsister Post Number: 678 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.255.167.138 |
Reminds me of the Florida philosphy. later - naturalsister | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 1851 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 129.9.163.106 |
The only thing that matters is the jobs. Nobody's going to come to Detroit without a job. Cool city or not if you can't find work you can't live there. Stop trying to create cool cities. A city becomes cool when it has real paying entry level jobs for the recent grads to work at. Something the US auto industry and Michigan hasn't had much of in over 30 years. | ||
Cjdb16 Member Username: Cjdb16 Post Number: 124 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 198.109.49.243 |
They want me to stay put huh? I want them to lower my taxes and/or provide schools my child could get an education from.... It's good to want things. | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 5985 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 208.27.111.125 |
Not to pile on, but I am getting a little tired of hearing about the importance of the "creative class." I'm told that I'm part of it and still think that the term is overused. | ||
Tetsua Member Username: Tetsua Post Number: 609 Registered: 01-2004 Posted From: 68.42.78.219 |
You hit the nail on the head Ndavies. When I was forced to leave the D (I've returned since) I went to the NY area, and met a few Detroiters anxious to return ... if they could find jobs here. People are turned off by what seems like lack of opportunity in the Detroit region. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 187 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 209.220.229.254 |
^^ Tetsua, did you ever go to the bar called something like "Motor City" on the Lower East Side? It always feels bizzare to be all the way in NYC and be surrounded by Detroit memorabilia. | ||
Sfdet Member Username: Sfdet Post Number: 77 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 160.83.73.15 |
bravo, ND. well said. and a large number of jobs won't show up in the D (without tax subsidies) until the city's overall business tax burden becomes competitive with the suburbs and surrounding states. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1742 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.68 |
For every person like those that Tetsua and NDavies speak of, there are 200 Michigan natives that high-tail it to Chicago or elsewhere and never even consider Detroit a possibility. That is why the jobs aren't here. I'm of the opinion that this will turn around when we are able to start building a respectible transit system. So much has already been done that this is the final piece in the puzzle. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2191 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.72.7 |
Jsmyers..... you're tempting fate for a Trainman post on this thread, aren't you?  | ||
Dabirch Member Username: Dabirch Post Number: 1512 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 208.44.117.10 |
Just because you can photoshop does not mean that you are part of the creative class. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 1853 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 129.9.163.106 |
Sorry, if there were good entry jobs here people would be moving here. They would easily outpace the number of people leaving for the cooler destinations. There are constantly people leaving Portland, Chicago, Seattle, Boston and California to get someplace they think is cooler. The inflow just outpaces the outflow because there are jobs to keep people. We have created a noncompetitive business environtment between the taxes, regulation and union pressures. Startup business succeed where the regulations, taxes and monetary backing favor growth. | ||
Eric_c Member Username: Eric_c Post Number: 754 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.76.202.10 |
...actually, Jeff, I believe I said 'Special Class'... | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 771 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Is the "artist" crowd really productive, or are they just living off the disposable excesses of the Mildred Drysdale types (of the Beverly Hillbillies)?? | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 5987 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 208.27.111.125 |
Milburn Drysdale's wife was "Margaret." | ||
Dabirch Member Username: Dabirch Post Number: 1513 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 208.44.117.10 |
Mildred Gaddis was on the Beverly Hillbillies? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 772 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
My bad, I guess. I don't have cable and haven't watched TBH in eons... (Message edited by LivernoisYard on May 30, 2006) | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1743 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.68 |
I wouldn't call engineers, architects, and young finance people to be part of the artist crowd, but they are exactly who the Model D article is about. Read the article before you post about it! I don't disagree with you NDavies, but you are missing a lot with your argument. Startup businesses also exceed where they can get suitable employees fast (either because they are here, or because they want to move here). Monetary backing is also more likely to exist where there is both/either "buzz" about a place or industry, and/or when investors have confidence in the industry or place's ability to sustain itself. Attracting talent is a big part of that. Startup businesses also are born when people with matching ideas and talents get together. Right now SE Michigan has those people, but they are largely strewn all over from Ann Arbor to Hamtramck. Of those who are involved with WSU, how many times have you heard about collaboration with UofM? Vis Versa. "Taxes, regulation and union pressures" are only a part of the business environment. A supportive community, viable land use and transportation, and many other things are factors too. I'm not talking about "cool," I'm talking about liveable and workable. In many ways, SE Michigan is not, and I believe that quality transit is a big part of what we are missing. We have the educational institutions. We have parks, lakes, winter sports, high culture, sports. What we don't have is an attractive central city (though you and I love it) or a reliable and attractive way to get around other than a car. The things you mention are problems, but they are not the only problems. Furthermore, if you look at the places you mention (Portland, Chicago, Seattle, Boston and California) and look at your list of problems (taxes, regulation, union pressures,and monetary backing) I bet you find some negative correlations. | ||
Rustic Member Username: Rustic Post Number: 2505 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 130.132.177.245 |
The actress who played Mrs Drysdale had horrible teeth. Watch some of the color episodes of Beverly Hillbillies and you will see what I mean --- seriously it looks like something drawn by Basil Wolverton. | ||
Jfried Member Username: Jfried Post Number: 842 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.190 |
good points jsmeyers. transit, lack of jobs, taxes, regulations, union pressures are all pieces of the problem, but none of these problems exist in a vaccum, and each deserve equal attention. no one expects the state to give out free coupons for goatees, put on indie rock shows, or any other "cool" things, but there are several policy issues and programs that directly affect our quality of life (transit, mixed-use zoning, etc.) and we should expect our leaders to deal with these issues. I have a lot of friends, from all walks of life who left here to be somewhere "cooler," and not a single one of them left because they couldn't find a job. today, a well educated person call live anywhere they want. I don't think anyone believes that we should focus all our efforts on keeping/attracting "cool" people, but it definitely makes sense to promote a diverse economic development program that addresses everything from job creation, to taxes, to parks, to overall quality of life, etc, etc. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 1854 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 129.9.163.106 |
This whole creative class thing is political bullshit. It's a smokescreen put out by the politicians. They don't want to suck up to the real truth. They need to downsize their business and get the hell out of the way of what really would make the economy go. We've pissed away the advantage we had during the late 40's, 50's and 60's. We taxed our startup businesses out of existance. We were left with the only industry that at the time could support the high tax rates we had. We killed or chased away all the small companies that could have left us with a cool city. We were "the coolest city in the country" in the late 40's, 50's, 60's and into the 70's. This was the place to move to. We had the best cultural attractions, the best sport teams, the highest tech industry there was and we had the premier jobs. Every one was moving here. It still didn't save us from the state and local governments bungling. We are now living with the messed up economy those continuing bad policy decisions have left us. SE Michigan will never ever be cool without a growing Job base. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1744 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.68 |
It is not that simple Ndavies. Without the government, there would be no UofM or Wayne State, there would be no transportation past your own 2 feet (probably bikes too). I hear that there isn't a whole hell of a lot of government or taxes in Antarctica. You might be right about the 40s-1970, the problem was that we were lazy. We didn't create much of anything new. We milked the music and auto things, but when the industries changed, SE Michigan was SOL and without a hope. Again, I'm not disagreeing with you, but I'd like you to acknowledge that outlawing decent transit and subsidizing suburban area spread are part of the "continuing bad policy decisions." | ||
Detourdetroit Member Username: Detourdetroit Post Number: 214 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
I don't necessarily disagree with NDavies either about jobs, but I think that a big part of the argument that's missing (besides transit - praise be!!!) is that we need to awaken the creative spark and do for ourselves. All those college grads need a job – yes. But a certain percentage of them need the place and the ethos to create opportunities for themselves. It’s incredible that one hundred years ago, Detroit was a hotbed of creativity and ingenuity – with residential, commercial and industrial uses in close proximity and a comprehensive streetcar system. Young (ish) people figured shit out and ****ing just did it! We’ve got to recreate a class of shopkeeper and businessperson. We’ve got to recreate the entrepreneur. We’ve got to tap into that Bloomfield and GPF wealth and Reinvest in our heart, our core, and not send that money to venture funds in NYC and SF. It’s sad because Detroit has additionally dug itself into a hole by decentralizing and demolishing many of the vessels that have served this purpose elsewhere…NEW IDEAS NEED OLD BUILDINGS MF-er (I think I heard Samuel L. Jackson deliver this line in a movie). Of course there needs to be jobs, but a big part of what we're missing is the density of ideas and opportunities and in place districts with the transit options to support the exchange that creates a new industry. We’ve got the grid and the infrastructure to realize an incredible urban vision here, but we lack the leadership and targeted investment to understand the potential of our own back yard… | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1746 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.68 |
I think it might have been Jane Jacobs, but something isn't quite right about that quote. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1502 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
I beg to differ greatly with Ndavies. Look at all the areas to which people are moving from Michigan. Places like California, Chicago, New York, DC, and Massachusetts all generally have higher taxes than SE Michigan, but still have much higher job growth and higher incomes. It doesn't appear that there is a direct correlation between low taxes, and job and income growth. I think the problem is a bit the other way around, that is, entrepreneurs are attracted to an area because of the ability to find suitable workers in that area. The young, educated, and talented seek out a certain quality of life when venturing into the "real" world, and employers tend to follow them. Is this the only ingredient for creating a thriving city? Absolutely not, but it does play a large role. Low tax rates don't mean anything if you're not making any money. | ||
Darwinism Member Username: Darwinism Post Number: 512 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.209.164.233 |
It's all about being able to put food on the table, people. I have lost about 4 friends just within the past 8-9 months to other cities. The reason - unanimously jobs. They are diverse in many ways; male and female, Black - White and Asian, age range from early-20s to mid-30s and professionals in a variety of fields ranging from engineering, health-care, finance to art, education, retail. Jobs, jobs, jobs - without good, stable jobs, we are losing people faster than we can say J-O-B ! Without jobs, nobody can buy these $250,000 Midtown lofts. Are you kidding me ? If you are not at least making $50,000 for a single professional, is it realistic and sensible to take on such a mortgage burden. Even if one were to realistically and sensibly afford such a mortgage, how much dispensable income is left to spend in the city of Detroit ? I sometimes wonder about the financial logic that these young college graduates have ..... is there concern about medical needs, is there concern about future family commitment/expenses, is there concern about sudden/unexpected job loss or other catasthrophic events ?? Just because it is 'cool' doesn't mean it passes the common sense test. Make sure the job is stable and secure. My friends did the exact same thing, regretted deeply and ended up with huge financial losses when they had to sell their homes and liquidate their belongings to ease their relocation process. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1503 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Having a good-paying job is "cool". | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 775 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Again the mass transit zealots believe that they are Detroit's Saviors and will be key to its Resurrection. Again more of the same nonsense. Get real, train/bus people! Businesses don't and shouldn't give a rat's ass if some wannabe "workers" live a county away without cheap cars for commuting when there are literally dozens of tens of thousands of unemployed who would gladly work there and not continually bitch about getting to/from work. Those un- and underemployed in Detroit who refuse to chase down ready employment elsewhere foolishly engage in that nonsense at their own peril. (Message edited by livernoisyard on May 30, 2006) | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 776 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Duh! What time zone does this forum use--CDT give or take a minute or two? Has its time been that inaccurate for a while? | ||
Eric_c Member Username: Eric_c Post Number: 755 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.76.202.10 |
Sounds like Livernoisyard owns a car... | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 3426 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.219.119.68 |
"Creative Class"? 15-20 years ago the CBD was loaded with galleries and "illegal" lofts where artists lived and worked. They were here because no one else wanted to be here. I'm not buying into the current generation's obsession with their lofts (apartments with high ceilings and exposed duct-work), until I see them raise families and not head off to a suburban home the moment the pregnancy test shows positive. (And I have no issues with anyone who chooses a suburban home to raise a family) | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3811 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 24.11.154.56 |
I must say, that while I have nothing else to add to this discussion, this has been very informative and civil, something rarely seen on internet forums such as these, and especially this one in particular. Keep up the great information and opinion sharing, everyone! | ||
Billpdx Member Username: Billpdx Post Number: 3 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 71.34.99.141 |
There are certainly plenty of people in this world who are perfectly willing to live and/or work in a suburban environment. Due to their surroundings growing up, it’s entirely possible that many never even consider the fact that there would be any alternative. Oakland County is great for these people. But for many of the brightest college grads this sort of situation is unacceptable. These are the people SE Mich are losing to Chicago, Boston and Seattle, etc… in large numbers. I really want to clarify this: I think that when people say this ‘creative class’ wants urban lofts, it is really over-simplifying things. From my experience, the typical person representing this loosely defined ‘creative class’ (at least in Portland, Oregon – where I live) arrives into town after graduation and moves into an urban apartment building – often within walking distance (or a short bike ride) to a grocery store, a coffee shop, and hopefully a park. They save up their money (hopefully) and in a few years buy a little pre-war bungalow (or maybe a mid-century ranch) in the city that they can fix up. (Yes - even to raise their families) Sure – some move into lofts downtown – they are building plenty of them here. But a majority seem to prefer the community of an older neighborhood (and the better price per square foot), and a little piece of yard they can call their own. In the long run, this is what Detroit should focus the most on – its hundreds of square miles of neighborhoods. By the way, as an aside – these same 'creative class' people wouldn’t be caught dead in a suburban office park – it’s a downtown job, or nothing... Better stop knocking down those nice old buildings. Unfortunately, Detroit is not currently set up for a lot of what these people want. The new lofts might be sexy, but the backbone of the city really will reside in its homes. From what I have found through internet research, there is little in the way of thriving neighborhood commercial areas, and sadly many of the public amenities like parks and such are either abandoned or extremely under maintained. This turns a potential positive into a huge negative. I am looking at moving my family back to my home state of Michigan, but even if I were to overlook these problems I’ve already mentioned, the Detroit city taxes are an absolute killer, and I think for many, the ultimate deal breaker. So even if I wanted to, there is absolutely no incentive to ‘buy Detroit’, real estate wise. (what the hell do those taxes buy for me anyway? Casino subsidies?) Mass transit would certainly be a good start – a couple train lines with some solid bus service feeding into it… but that is only part of the solution. One big thing (new ballpark, new casino, new parking garage, new train) will never make people want to move back to Detroit. Many small things (safer streets, clean parks, neighborhood stores, reasonable taxes) will go a ton farther – not only toward convincing people to move back, but to make life better for the citizens who already live here. I still like the idea of settling in Detroit, but due to all of the dis-incentives, it’s very likely we’ll end up in Ann Arbor instead. We’ll see, I guess. | ||
Dabirch Member Username: Dabirch Post Number: 1518 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 208.44.117.10 |
It has nothing to do with putting food ont he table. The people who are moving are not the ones struggling to put food on the table. People who struggle to put food on the table are not the ones that build an area, are not the ones that create business and wealth. The people who are moving are the ones who are excited about the future, what it has in store for them, and are looking for a palce to apply what they have learned through school and life experience. We don't need a region of people who are looking to put food on the table. That is what the unions were for. | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 8511 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.71.57.39 |
How can NDavies be wrong? Would you move to a place that didn't have jobs? Of course not! You wouldn't be able to buy a house, pay for your car(s), your big screen TV's... Jobs are number one in importance when it comes to relocating. If they weren't no one would move. | ||
Gambling_man Member Username: Gambling_man Post Number: 748 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 199.178.193.5 |
DaninDC, do yourself and us a favor, and stick to architecture or urban planning, or whatever it is you do.......Leave the economics to those who know a little something about it. | ||
River_rat Member Username: River_rat Post Number: 131 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 68.166.44.44 |
------------------------------ ------------------------------ -------------------- quote: For Detroit to succeed, the city needs to build areas of creative density -– places where a critical mass of artists, designers, musicians, techno whizzes, entrepreneurs, and maybe even a few writers reside –- places economists say will spark the economy of the future. ------------------------------ ------------------------------ -------------------- Let's get real! Detroit has four major problems. In order of importance they are: 1. A corrupt, ineffective, unresponsive, incompetent, and incapable city government for decades who have saddled the city with high taxes. 2, Crime, crime and more crime. Police, judges, courts and citizenry who seem impotent to stand up for the law abiding citizens. 3. An undereducated, underskilled, overpaid workforce protected by a unions unwilling to see the changes in the last workplace over the last decades. 4. No viable transit system. (Due to #1.) Wake up Detroit, get rid of the incompetents at the top, stop crime and understand the labor market. Jobs and prosperity will return and then the "cool" artists will show up and the city will be viable again. the river rat waits for the outrage | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 192 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 209.220.229.254 |
To everyone saying there are plenty of good entry-level jobs here...why did I have to take a job last year that pays about $10,000 less than the local industry average, and about $15k-$20k less than in places like Chicago? Oh right, because everyone is downsizing here and there aren't any jobs. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1617 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 69.220.63.57 |
The most important part of #1 is the taxes. Corrupt people have run great cities throughout history. As I have not been afraid to say before, KK is taking us in the right direction with regards to economic policy. #4 is a little inaccurate. We have a transit system, just not a very respectable one. An increase in city revenue combined with regional cooperation (which is probably at least a generation away) will correct this. #3 is key, and really a metro-Detroit problem. #2 points out that there is too much crime, and not enough policing. However, the fear that some people have of the city is not completely justified. It's drugs and messed up households that drive the violent crime stats up and up. There are so many deep and sociological explanations for our issues. Crime will always exist everywhere. Our leaders can only try to decide what sort of strategy will make it decline; creating vibrant neighborhoods with people who watch out for one another is a good way to start. | ||
30th_street Member Username: 30th_street Post Number: 25 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
Can good jobs and mass transit solve the racial divide of the Metro Detroit area that has been a part of everything cool and not cool about this area from the begining of time. | ||
Jdkeepsmiling Member Username: Jdkeepsmiling Post Number: 98 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 208.50.91.234 |
I love that there are the people on here that claim that if we just cut taxes we would have tons of job creation and companies moving here left and right. That is just not true. The state out there with the lowest average corporate tax rate is Wyoming...done to help lure businesses...but you don't see people flocking to Montana for high tech startups...they have to give away land there just to get people to move there for God's sake. It has to be an an attractive place to live, play and raise a family, that is where we come up short. For those who are stuck on taxes let me point out the TAX that living in Metro Detroit puts on a young couple by having a sprawling metro area and no reliable mass transit. Me and my wife both 26 and college educated pay over $1000 per month for out transportation. This includes car payments (a cavalier and a impala), gas, insurance and upkeep. If we lived in Chicago we would be at $150 for two El Passes... lets say $250, assuming that you have to rent a car once a month for longer trips out of the city. This amounts to a TAX of $750 per month, straight up, there is no other way of defining it. So why don'y we work on this before worrying about a few dollars here or there and a quater percentage point on the income tax... get real and stop bitching about being taxed out of exsistence. I am not saying that taxes should not be looked at or that high taxes is a good thing, just that cutting taxes is not some pancea to solve all or problems. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 1856 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 129.9.163.233 |
It's not about the costs to individuals. It's about the costs placed on businesses. The taxes, as currently structured in Michigan, stop fledgeling businesses from growing. Companies rarely move across state lines. Most job creation comes from within. Startup companies need to be protected from over zealous regulation and high taxes. Fledgling businesses need access to low cost capital. The failure rate for Michigan based small businesses is abysmal. Mobius systems wanted to be in Detroit. They opened their headquarters there. They eventually were lured to California. The reason: access to venture capital. Not because of the lack of people, not because of racial issues, not because the city wasn't cool. They went to get access to huge amounts of venture capital that will help their company grow. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1504 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
If taxes were the major issue, then Delaware would be the most economically booming spot in the entire nation. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 1857 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 129.9.163.106 |
It's not high taxes that are the base of the problem. It's the way the single business tax is structured in Michigan. It is extremely punishing to job growth. The tax doesn't go up if you earn more profit. It goes up if you add employees or capital equipment. In most states taxes go down when you add the extra costs of employees or added equipment. The tax was designed to help the state absorb the up and downs associated with cyclical auto industry. It was meant to smooth out the peaks and valleys we used to get in the tax revenue streams in the 60's-80's. Unfortunately this tax has killed off business growth. (Message edited by ndavies on May 31, 2006) | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1505 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
I won't argue that point, Ndavies. The SBT is only a part of the problem. There are plenty of other factors currently hurting Michigan, and Detroit in particular, these days. It's overly simplistic, and a false sense of security, to blame everything on taxes, though. Most people (and hence businesses) don't mind paying taxes so much if they feel they get something in return. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 1859 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 129.9.163.106 |
Taxes and the provided services are the only things the government can effectively change. Do what every other business in the state has had to do over the last 6 years. Lower the cost of government. Provide more efficient services. Down size and get more efficient. | ||
Eastsidedog Member Username: Eastsidedog Post Number: 434 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 12.47.224.8 |
There's is way too much talk about what people want, want, want. It's so materialistic, so much talk about stuff, lofts, retail options, walkability, blah, blah, blah. Young people need to stop chasing a dream of a hip urban utopia that will define them and make them cool. I have to say that I like the Kid Rock quote in the ad: "I think what I've learned out of this lifetime is you should be proud of where you come from." Do not ask what your city can do for you, but what you can do for your city. By improving your place of origin you will be in a way improving yourself. Young people need to stop trying so hard to improve their image of themselves, and instead improve the world around themselves. We all die and rot away but places live on for new generations. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1623 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 69.220.63.57 |
Well said. | ||
Eastsidedog Member Username: Eastsidedog Post Number: 435 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 12.47.224.8 |
Thanks Mackinaw. | ||
Jfried Member Username: Jfried Post Number: 843 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.190 |
eastside - good points, but most people want what they want NOW. most of us stick around here because we love the place, have a desire to make it better, and have a sense of pride for doing so. but honestly, I can't fault people for leaving. it would be so easy to live in chicago, nyc, or any of the other cities where a lot of the hard work is already done - somewhere you don't have to be an activist just to enjoy the urban experience. why stay if the life you want already exists somewhere else? ndavies, you may have points about the sbt, but that is only part of the problem. 2/3 of businesses in that state don't pay the tax, and most of the small start ups you speak of never even heard of the tax until LBP started his petition drive. why is it so hard to understand that taxes, jobs, quality of life, etc., are only single pieces of the puzzle. we need a comprehensive strategy - no single issue being resolved will save michigan. | ||
Eastsidedog Member Username: Eastsidedog Post Number: 437 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 12.47.224.8 |
That's right Jfried. Where you live is a just fucking product, nothing more. Marketed, packaged, sold, and THROWN AWAY. To all the young people reading this: Go buy some Chicago. But to you it will only be a product. You may think that buying some of Chicago will make you a Chicagoan, and that by moving to San Franscisco you will be from the West Coast, but over the years, and in the end, you will realize that your inner Detroiter has withered away and you're just a consumer of places with no roots left. No family nearby, no places from your childhood, no childhood friends to run into at the store. You'll just be a consumer of places and the only way to escape the emptiness will be to find new places, to consume more and more and more. (Message edited by eastsidedog on May 31, 2006) | ||
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa Post Number: 852 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 208.39.170.90 |
I don't run into childhood friends at the store. They've all moved to Chicago or Clinton Twp. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1625 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 69.220.63.57 |
I like the contrasts; Chicago...Clinton Twp...Chicago for the people who want their fix of urban living, and Clinton for the non-urban folks who want to 'stay loyal to the Detroit area.' Agreed again with what eastsidedag is saying, and yes, this is a throwaway society. Detroit started to get thrown away by so many people quite a while ago. The challenge is to make the entire city a place that almost everyone will care about (because you can never get all people to like a place). | ||
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa Post Number: 853 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 208.39.170.90 |
Clinton Twp for the girls who got married and preggers at 22 and need to stay close to home so their parents can babysit their 4 kids under 6 yrs old so they can get a double income to pay for the brand new house and SUV large enough to fit four car seats. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 198 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 209.220.229.254 |
I already don't have roots, I've moved 5 times, and went away to college and never went back home. I could give a shit, I can drive back to my roots whenever I feel like it. So give me a nice city to live in. "Because I've always lived here" is a piss-poor excuse to live somewhere. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1626 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 69.220.63.57 |
I can imagine, Susanarosa. | ||
Eastsidedog Member Username: Eastsidedog Post Number: 438 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 12.47.224.8 |
Focusonthed, that's too bad you have no roots. But it sounds like you're looking to put roots down in Detroit. Don't worry. Lots of people are working hard to make Detroit an attractive product to purchase. So far the marketing, branding and repackaging has focused on lofts and condos as the premier product but their is plenty more to be repackaged and sold to interested consumers. The MidtownTM brand name is a good purchase I hear. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2205 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.72.39 |
Well said Eastsidedog... it sorta reminded me of something that Frank Lloyd Wright once said: "Architecture is what future civilizations will judge our civilization by". It is so true that in this throwaway society of ours, we leave nothing for the future. So much of what is produced today is crap, in our lives and in our architecture.... | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 199 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 209.220.229.254 |
"Empty storefronts > commercialization" Apparently. I make this exaggeration, but it doesn't have to be one end of the spectrum or another. Just because places like Chicago have functioning, useful, niche businesses on every corner; or because they have the variety of yuppie residents with disposable income (imagine that, disposable income), that does not make those places any less organic or "real" than the utopian Detroit of your dreams. (Message edited by focusonthed on May 31, 2006) | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1506 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
This is an interesting, and surprisingly civil, thread. While I normally agree that we live in a disposable, throwaway culture, I resent the remark that those who seek greener pastures are merely seeking a commodity. I like that I can walk to the grocery store. I like that I don't need to own a car. I like that my three best friends live within a 10 minute walk, and that we know the bartenders at our neighborhood hangouts. I like that there are a mix of single people and families, white and black, young and old, in my neighborhood. Do you mean to tell me that's all just an "image"? A product that is marketed and sold? Not "real" enough? People in my generation, especially those of us who are perpetually restless, have spent enough time in suburbia. We lived a cookie cutter existence for 18+ years--why would we want our adult lives to be the same? Unfortunately, though, unless one is willing to make a sacrifice by being an urban pioneer, SE Michigan only offers the cookie cutter option--and good luck getting a job to boot. | ||
Darwinism Member Username: Darwinism Post Number: 513 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.215.30.34 |
Yes, to come to think of it ..... I do notice now that this thread has been rather civil and polite thus far. Perhaps the grumpy jerks that have been here for so long and frequently snap at others have moved to other forums. Good, DetroitYes doesn't need to be a rude environment after all. As much as I wish my friends had toughed it out and stayed in town, I can't fault them for moving elsewhere. The younger friends seek potential for upward career progress in their fields, whether they are in art/creative space or whether they are in a technical arena. No such opportunity for them here. Go ahead and hit up on Monster.com or Careerbuilder.com Those in the 30s tend to wish for better schools and a family life that is robust and comfortable. Unfortunately, my friends are tired of the constant pay cut, likely job loss and other stress factors. There are also those who were actually let go recently and unable to find work past 7-8 months. And you wonder why there is a homeless problem ? How many of you have a cash reserve to last more than 4-5 months ? There is going to be talent drain and brain drain in this region for a long time to come. There was a comment above regarding Wyoming and Montana not attracting people ..... well, how about Boise, Idaho - it was potato capital U.S.A. until the 80s and 90s when the tech boom made Boise, Idaho a hotbed and jobs mecca. I agree that Detroit needs to overhaul many things, simultaneously, in order to achieve tangible success. The question is, how long are we able to wait ? | ||
Dialh4hipster Member Username: Dialh4hipster Post Number: 1633 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 75.7.44.149 |
This is true, and not just in regard to our late 19th/early 20th century architecture. This has been gloomy reading today for me, first with the very Marriott Courtyard-style redo planned for the Ponch and then with the demo planned for Ford Auditorium. Why don't I view this as moving forward? The Hotel Pontchartrain was a focal point of swank style and sophistication when it opened. It is mentioned as a "landmark" in the article about the renovation. But instead of capitalizing on what it is that actually makes the hotel distinctive - they go for bland corporate decor. Contrast with the Royal Hotel in Copenhagen, which opened just a few years before the Pontchartrain. When it was renovated several years back, they completely embraced the modern heritage of the hotel and have created a five-star destination in the middle of Copenhagen. Radisson Info Page on the Royal Hotel with link to virtual tour PDF brochure with lots of interior pictures Ford Auditorium is another example. I realize not everyone is into the International Style, but like it or not it is difficult to deny that it's a valid and well-regarded architectural style. I know the acoustics are crap, but the building is a signifant part of the landscape downtown and COULD be magnificent along the river there. I think that a city with vision would capitalize on that, especially given the growing popularity and appreciation of mid-century architecture (if not here, at least in slightly more sophisticated cities). Having a throroughly contemporary revamp of the interior that uses technology to address the acoustical defects could result in a truly modern facility that could draw patrons the way the Max does now. And the kicker is that something like the demolition of Ford Auditorium is lauded, and all the new architecture cheered throughout the city is a fraction of the caliber. I am not stuck on either of these things going the way I'd like to see them go. What happens happens, and there are many factors contributing to the fates of either building. For me, however, it's a glaring example of the lack of vision in both political and business leadership. Detroit is not going to be "world class" because it is bland like the suburbs, full of chain restaurants and bland hotels and suburban architecture. Exciting things need to happen here, and people need to look outside their tiny little worlds and get inspiration from around the world ... look to industrial European cities for ways to embrace the past but look into the future. It's really possible, but it requires more energy and leadership. Which is exactly why I am beginning to despair that anything really exciting for someone like me could happen in Detroit anytime soon. Damn, I'm wordy. Sorry for the rant, but I've recently started thinking that I'm *not* part of the solution for Detroit. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1507 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
This is from today's Cleveland Plain Dealer. I decided to post it, because I thought it would be a good follow-up to DialH's post above. In the linked column, Architecture Critic Steven Litt discusses the need for excellence in design. The only difference would be that Detroit has a far more magnificent design heritage in Cleveland, and does have a fairly large local architecture powerhouse (SmithGroup, formerly SHG). Design Excellence a Necessity If Cleveland raises standards, city's image will improve Wednesday, May 31, 2006 http://www.cleveland.com/enter tainment/plaindealer/steven_li tt/index.ssf?/base/entertainme nt/114906435017700.xml&coll=2 | ||
Dabirch Member Username: Dabirch Post Number: 1524 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 208.44.117.10 |
It is actually because nobody has said anything glaringly stupid in this thread. Posts are reasoned and articulate. Differences of opinions has never really been what made the old folks grumpy -- it was the way in which an opinion was presetned as a fact, or how extreme conclusions are drawn from simple pieces of information and then treated as fact. This place can be civil when people are logical... | ||
Darwinism Member Username: Darwinism Post Number: 514 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.209.164.233 |
Dialh4hipster: I couldn't agree more. You hit the nail right on. That is EXACTLY the kind of words I hear so often from people who have eventually left after enduring for 8, 10, 15 years. They have tried and tried and tried as best as they could, but alas ..... realized that they are *not* going to be part of Detroit's solution. | ||
Eastsidedog Member Username: Eastsidedog Post Number: 439 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 12.47.224.8 |
Danindc, a home in new city to a transplant is just a commodity. It is as new and unfamiliar as a new book. Maybe you've read one like it but all books - and places - are different. Housing is sold AND THROWN AWAY like any other commodity nowadays whether you like it or not. It seems their was a time when housing was not thrown away until it was used up. But today we throw away housing long before it's totally worn out. We're throwing away product that's far from used up, like a car with 20,000 miles being driven off a cliff. On the other hand WHERE YOU ARE FROM cannot be bought or sold, whether it be a farm in Indiana or the Bronx. But people try to buy a new identity anyways. Where we grow up shapes who we are. Over time a place may feel more and more like where we're from but it never truly will be. Where we spend our most formative years, usually at least 20 years gives us a sense of who we are. Most metro areas, even Detroit, offer a bewildering variety of housing options. The city living that young people desire so deeply, to define themselves as different from their parents, to define themselves as "cool" is right here in Detroit. I've found it as have countless, countless others. Dialh4hipster, I would call the plans for the East riverfront exciting wouldn't you? high-density residential, state park and riverwalk? Sounds pretty exciting to me! Yes, others cities did the same ten years ago but still, it is Detroit's chance to outdo them all. I mean 4,000 units are planned for the Uniroyal site alone! I just want to say that I'm proud to be from a city as unique and as fascinating as Detroit. The mass transit and all the other lifestyle style stuff that other cities "offer"(<more marketing speech for ya) are great and all but when it reall comes down to it, it's all about the people, and the people in Detroit are awesome. (Message edited by eastsidedog on May 31, 2006) | ||
Dialh4hipster Member Username: Dialh4hipster Post Number: 1634 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 75.6.255.129 |
Hey Eastsidedog ... I do think that the east riverfront will be relatively exciting when it is done. I just think we are talking about different kinds of exciting. I am talking about architecturally significant, not just pleasant. I am talking about a cultural fast-forward for the city. I am saying that the only way Detroit will really be any better than the suburbs, let alone than other cities, is if it does something to make it different and interesting, and it needs to start looking to the future, not the past or even the present. What could be more amazing than a rust belt city with a shitty one-industry economy turning itself around into a modern cultural hub of the midwest. Why not do what Chicago has not and embrace the cutting edge? Why not capitalize on the fact that Detroit is the real deal, and create a more visible manifestation of the cutting edge that has previously been shown in industry and music? Just thoughts, and they aren't wholly original ideas. But it's not been done in the US to any great extent, and Detroit is the perfect place for it. | ||
Tomoh Member Username: Tomoh Post Number: 187 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.136.10.153 |
Somewhat in defense of the original article, there are many factors in varying degrees that come into play when people decide to move to another city. For some types of people, it's all about cash money, and that's how most of their friends also are. For some types it's all about the lifestyle and they envy their friends who have found jobs in exciting places like NYC or SF or even Chicago. I'm not sure what percentage of young people are the latter type and to what degree but it's certain that they are all over the metro and all over the global Detroit diaspora. There's a number of strategies that our governments should pursue simultaneously in order to retain talent in the region and I think state government ought to pursue those cheap yet effective ways that'll give certain young people, who'll live in many cities despite the schools or taxes or political corruption, yet another reason to stick around. This isn't to say that we shouldn't also work on all the other problems and reasons people and money are leaving the state. Just that it's wrong to discount a certain sentiment that many people do have. | ||
Eastsidedog Member Username: Eastsidedog Post Number: 440 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 12.47.224.8 |
Dialh4hipster, the Ren Cen was cutting edge when it was built and look where it got us. It was shiny and new, looked great on paper, even had premier shopping destinations at one point, but it did little to help downtown, let alone the rest of the city. Architecture as a savior is way over hyped. The great architechture comes after the success, hence all the incredible 1920's architecture in Detroit. Detroit won't see great new architecture until it has great economic success again in like 20-50 years. But we can still capitalize on and enjoy what we have which is indeed spectacular. (Message edited by eastsidedog on June 01, 2006) | ||
Dialh4hipster Member Username: Dialh4hipster Post Number: 1635 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 75.6.255.129 |
I'm not talking major buildings, necessarily, ESD, although in my opinion the Ren Cen has really come into its own, and it certainly had the odds stacked against it at the time it opened (and even more so in the intervening years). I'm talking about buildings that are already going to be built looking like something other than cookie cutter buildings from suburbia. Architecture isn't a savior necessarily, but it does create an identity. Detroit has so much outstanding older architecture, and it is only diminished when the buildings around it SUCK. Campus Martius could be ten times more exciting than it is. And frankly, I'm not only frustrated with the new development, although our adaptive reuse residential projects like Kales and Merchants Row are quite excellent. What frustrates me is really the attitude around here. It's the general population striving for mediocrity, and not even knowing or caring that they could and should expect more. | ||
Detourdetroit Member Username: Detourdetroit Post Number: 217 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
"What frustrates me is really the attitude around here. It's the general population striving for mediocrity, and not even knowing or caring that they could and should expect more." AMEN | ||
Eastsidedog Member Username: Eastsidedog Post Number: 442 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 12.47.224.8 |
Dialh4hipster, I think that folks in Detroit have been waiting soooo looong for a comeback that they'll take anything, even if it's ugly. People are desparate for a real comeback, not a fake 1 step forward, two steps back. IMO, the biggest change that has to take place in the mind of the citizenry is that Detroit needs to start modeling itself after OTHER MAJOR CITIES NOT THE SUBURBS. Shit, sometimes it seems like half my neighbors who are tranplants are from the east coast! I agree that Campus Martius could be better and that the old buildings are diminished buy "fugly" new ones (Compuware could be taller and less "campus-like" but overall it's not bad, but then again it's not great -- I HATE the back side of it, it's like they forgot buildings were three-dimensional objects). But hey, I just live here and I'm not an architect, so I'm not allowed to complain. I'm told that I should take what I can get or build something better myself. jk. ;) | ||
Davidmausolf Member Username: Davidmausolf Post Number: 5 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 65.35.52.59 |
Let me explain why I like Tampa better then Detroit. I wanted to startup a skimboarding contest in Tampa. All I had to do was stop by a skimboarding shop, talked to the owner, sent out a few emails to tampa bay times, and gulfster.com. I got 4-5 people on board who wanted to do something that's never happened before. A proffesional skimboarding contest in Tampa. We all fed off each others energy and as a result we've been doing quite well. Detroit has these people like myself and others, but if I want to do that same thing it would be impossibly hard to meet the other visionaries that share the same vision. Ann Arbor and Royal Oak are probably the closest that have these visionaries, but it's still incredibly more difficult. I guess you really have to be a 19 year old kid who wants to be a CEO of an automotive company, be an amateur surfer, own a skimboarding company, and have a lot of fun doing it all. I think my generation values above anything else is the experience. We're willing to sacrifice pay for a better job. | ||
Davidmausolf Member Username: Davidmausolf Post Number: 6 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 65.35.52.59 |
I think I'm the type of person Detroit is looking for. I'm only 19 years old, but already am holding proffesional Skimboarding contests (this is going to be huge in a few years) with progressive companies, Tampa Bay times, and local people, and I'm one of the top marketers for a local convience store chain. What is it that is keeping me out of detroit? I feel like Detroit has really let me down as a city. Id like to say that I love detroit, but it just doesn't seem to like me. I try to love it, but there's so many things missing. The first and most vital part is MASS TRANSPORTATION!!!!!!! I just typed that in caps so people hear it, I'm a college student/intern/organizer, but I don't have all the money in the world to spend on gas. Seconldy I grew up in the suburbs, the safe belt if you would as my parents generation might call it. I don't want a suburb type of living, I want a flat downtown, with packed cars on the street, I want to know my neighbors in the city, and I want young progressive kids like myself who are willing to try risky things. Detroit does have small pockets of this creativity and people like myself, but we're so disorganized and decentralized I don't know where to live( the best place I would say is Royal Oak, but thats not Detroit). When I go to downtown Detroit I don't see a wasted downtown, I see possiblities. I see mass transportation lines heading over me while driving, I see Rockwalls being built in some of the old skyscrapers, I see DETROIT STYLE food being made, I see protests, starbucks on the corner, fresh food markets that are cool and also help out the local economy, I see a riverfront that could be a great skimboarding area or kite surfing area, I see visionaries like Robert Lutz who still get it. Detroit is not like any other city, we never will be, Detroit has tryed to become something its not, and in the process alienated people like me. I can show you plenty of bright people who lived in Detroit, but have left along with me because of the lack of community. Ann Arbor should be a model for Detroit. I'm not saying I wouldn't come back to Detroit, but I'm not coming back there till I have my skimboarding company setup and my clothing business. I was talking to my twin who's about to leave Detroit and I think she stated it perfectly "the only way to make it in Detroit is if you're part of the automotive industry, some rich bridge owner, or have a lot of money". So when I've made my riches I'll come back to the city I love, but until theres mass transportation, and a trendy downtown area its not worth my time. My life isn't just about money, I want to live somewhere I enjoy, and with people I like, I don't care if Ford's willing to pay me $80,000/year, I'll take my $50,000 year job because there's creative people such as myself in the area. If you have any questions feel free to talk to me David Mausolf Email:Mausoldj@eckerd.edu Phone: (727)365-9552 p.s- hopefully some day I could be mayor of Detroit. | ||
Davidmausolf Member Username: Davidmausolf Post Number: 7 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 65.35.52.59 |
To the people that call me a traitor to the city, all I have to say is that I feel like I've given this city more then a fair shake, when people bad mouth the city I'm always defending it, but it just doesn't have what I need right now. I normally go back once a year and it does seem to be improving, but the things I listed is what the city really needs. I like Tampa because I can go to my friends place downtown, I can go for a business meeting 2 blocks from my house at an indian restaurant, I can talk german with the local german bakery, I can get my food fresh thats grown local (due in part to my work), and I'm right near the beach (about a 10 minute walk, but its good excercise). Can I get that in Downtown Detroit? (Message edited by davidmausolf on June 01, 2006) | ||
Eastsidedog Member Username: Eastsidedog Post Number: 443 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 12.47.224.8 |
Davidmausolf, let me know when you're running, oh and when you and you're rich friends decide you're ready to move in and fix what all of us are failing to do. Oh, and you're absolutely right, Detroit should not try to become something it's not, it should be like Ann Arbor. Sounds like you've got Detroit all figured out. I can't wait to vote for you. Thanks for the insight. I feel a moment of clarity washing over me....... | ||
Davidmausolf Member Username: Davidmausolf Post Number: 8 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 65.35.52.59 |
eastsidedog, That may not have been my most articulate piece of writing ever, but it's how I feel about Detroit sometimes. Love and Hate, thats the best I can hope for you to understand, we're two different people. Tell me where I'm wrong in my feelings, and I will gladly listen, "bitching" is often quite productive I've found. So please let me know. (Message edited by davidmausolf on June 01, 2006) | ||
Eastsidedog Member Username: Eastsidedog Post Number: 444 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 12.47.224.8 |
Seriously, I want to vote for you. You sound much better than me and everyone else in the city. So what's your platform? | ||
Davidmausolf Member Username: Davidmausolf Post Number: 9 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 65.35.52.59 |
Well when you want to actually discuss your ideas let me know. Two way streets are always much more productive. I would like to check out our current budget for right now, but I would try to push through subway system by offering more subsidies. I think this would help attract a lot of younger people to downtown detroit, espically those who don't have a car or can't afford to drive, and could be integrated into the existing transportation system as well as provide a place for travelers to go instead of just staying in Romulus for longer lay overs. This would also help bridge the Ann Arbor- Detroit gap which I think could attract yuppies to Downtown Detroit or at least make it more attractive for them to live in the lofts downtown with a few roommates and also at the same time provide that transportation to UofM where they might be taking their classes, and also allow Waye State and C.C.S students to go to ann arbor. I think l-trains and subway systems when properly planned are a gerat system. At the same time I'd also like to work on production of an ethanol production factory and it would be based on local michigan farmers which would help increase traffic flows to the downtown production refinery and force more workers at the plant to come downtown. This would also secondarily benefit the Big 3 which have been pushing ethanol. I'm a firm believer in supporting industries that support other local industries and this is a great way. Thirdly I'd like to continue focusing on expansion of food options and other service industries inside downtown detroit for new residents. Companies like rolling oats, wild oats, and other fresh food companies can often charge a premium on their food which would be another attractive feature for yuppies. This would also expand into adding more clothing stores such as urban outfitters and american apparel. These kinds of stores act as secondary image boosters, and I feel that if a worker was to choose between living in an area with creative stores such as these they might be more willing to live in this area. A great place to expand on in Detroit would be the Wayne State Campus which has had some progress in it's growth. I'd like to see a further increase in the Riverfront park to make it a much more relaxing environment. I think an enviromentally sound city really puts a premium on it. I would also like to expand tax credits for developers redeveloping apartments in the downtown area where possible, and in the budget. The city budget is a big iffy, I would really need to examine that issue, by seeing a breakdown of the 2006 budget gain/loss. One of my big parts of the proposal is a very focused plan on Development areas in Downtown Detroit that will have the main focus of all the police, and other resources. As the cities budget rises we can focus on expanding to other areas, but unfortunately I feel when push comes to shove it's going to be the developing areas that will get the money. Obviously its not all inclusive, but it's a start. | ||
Eastsidedog Member Username: Eastsidedog Post Number: 445 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 12.47.224.8 |
The solution according to Davidmausolf: Subways Yuppies Urban Outfitters American Apparel Health Food I think I'm going to puke. How about rapid bus service so poor city residents can get to jobs in the suburbs, and so walkable retail can be developed? How about cops walking beats and bicycling in the neighborhoods, particularly the denser areas which would cut down on petty theft and auto theft? How about gradually scaling back the income tax and replacing that revenue with an efficiently collected property tax? How about creating a fund to support more small business creation in the black community?
Yeah, your ideas are definitely aren't "all inclusive," but they definitely include the yuppies, Davidmausolf. The upper classes are important but truthfully they need the help the least. It sounds like your plans for Detroit are how to make Detroit better FOR YOU - not for Detroit as a whole. (Message edited by eastsidedog on June 01, 2006) | ||
Rosedaleken Member Username: Rosedaleken Post Number: 172 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 68.43.122.151 |
Davidmausolf, I think the only thing you said that I agree with is Mass Transit. The lack of a system here is a big reason why I accepted a job elsewhere. I hate driving, and I got a job with a company who helps design/renovate rail systems. True, people are leaving now, but I'm not worried about Detroit. Eventually, things will turn around. | ||
Lexdetroitman_07 Member Username: Lexdetroitman_07 Post Number: 10 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 74.131.204.36 |
Rosedaleken, I definitely hope that you are right about the turn around of this city. All we need are a few more good things to happen in the CBD and we are back in business, so to speak!! Lexdetroitman_07 | ||
Bearinabox Member Username: Bearinabox Post Number: 20 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 69.209.153.29 |
Davidmausolf, you hit the nail on the head when you said that the place in Michigan for people like you is Royal Oak. I personally don't much like Royal Oak the way it is now, because I feel like everyone is there to show off how far they've made it in the world rather than to genuinely enjoy themselves. The range of odd little independent shops that used to line Main Street has been replaced by overpriced, decidedly unoriginal restaurants, coffee shops, and chain stores, and the overall feel of the place is one dominated by those who strive too hard to buy into originality and kill it off in the process. Detroit is not and should not be like that. It has a vibe all its own. Although Detroit desperately needs more investment, it shouldn't come at the expense of the city's very identity. Agreed about the mass transit, though. (Message edited by BearInABox on June 01, 2006) | ||
Dialh4hipster Member Username: Dialh4hipster Post Number: 1636 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 75.6.255.129 |
Hey remember when this thread was civil? Nice going eastsidedog. | ||
Tomoh Member Username: Tomoh Post Number: 189 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.136.10.153 |
Actually, I don't think David's direction is totally off track. Perhaps we don't need a subway in Detroit, but we do need some form of rapid transit, most likely commuter rail and light rail. David, check out TRU to see their perspective on the issue. As ESD said, we also need more pedestrian-friendly storefront development to go along with transit. As ESD paraphrases, David wants yuppies in Detroit. I don't think this is a bad thing either -- to think so would be to say "let's not allow people who like urban living and who have money to live and shop in our city". Right now there's not really a place for yuppies, so-called, especially the johnny-come-latelys, in the city. It's a mistake to ignore or discourage them, but it's also a mistake to be seen as focusing only on that group. Ann Arbor already has American Apparel and Urban Outfitters. These came after Ann Arbor was cool, they certainly didn't make the city cool (nor cooler, really). Cityscape Detroit recently held a lecture session on why retailers look for in locations, I think some on this forum attended. They'll probably tell you that at the root of it, downtown Detroit needs more residents and workers. However, I do think there's a potentially powerful synergistic effect in placing more boutique shops in the Harmonie Park fashion district, making it more of a shopping destination. Detroit could definitely use more healthy food stores. In fact, it could use more grocery stores of every kind. ESD, there is a fund for creating small businesses in the black community according to this article from last friday: http://www.detnews.com/ap/ps/p bcs.dll/article?AID=/20060526/ BIZ/605260414/1001 It just happens to not be specifically limited to people of only one race, although most of them will naturally be black. Lastly, David you said "I like Tampa because I can go to my friends place downtown, I can go for a business meeting 2 blocks from my house at an indian restaurant, I can talk german with the local german bakery, I can get my food fresh thats grown local (due in part to my work), and I'm right near the beach (about a 10 minute walk, but its good excercise). Can I get that in Downtown Detroit?" Well, not every neighborhood is the same, but in downtown Detroit you could walk to your friend's place if you and they lived there, you could meet at an Indian restaurant to talk (there's one on Monroe), and you could go to a German restaurant. You could walk to the Eastern Market and buy food grown not just in southeast Michigan but in Detroit. You'd be right near the riverfront and you could bike or drive to nearby Belle Isle where there's even a small beach. Certainly, it's not the same, but this is more than most suburbanites have available. Anyways, I wish you the best of luck in getting rich. I hope Detroit isn't too gentrified by the time you return -- what would be the fun in that? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 782 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Let's see... Downtown Detroit has a (meaning one) CVS store and it's open a lot fewer hours than the CVS stores where they are any appreciable number of residents (meaning, not downtown). I reckon a subway, commuter or light rail would not put much of a dent in that (meaning one) store's business. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 209 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 24.192.25.47 |
What I think is funny is the people that complain about Royal Oak because of the lack of "odd little independant shops" on Main Street. They're on Washington and Lafayette Sts. now, have you bothered to look? Anyone that complains about the state of Royal Oak today is either: 1) a hipster elitist 2) been priced out of the market 3) jealous And hold your flaming, I don't live in Royal Oak. | ||
Billpdx Member Username: Billpdx Post Number: 4 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 198.107.48.11 |
It may not be as interesting to most people as new stadiums and casinos, but more Detroit-owned businesses, more career-type jobs for its residents, and a safer and cleaner city is getting at the heart of the problem. Detroit has more beautiful forgotten buildings covered in weeds and plywood than most places will ever build on their own. Subways are nice if you already have them, but an inefficient use of limited tax dollars if you don’t. Light rail, (maybe streetcars, too) and a solid bus system can shoulder the load in improving transit. If you make Detroit better for its current residents, you won’t be able to build a wall high enough to keep the yuppies out. (whether you like it or not) I think shooting for corporate pseudo-hip stores in Detroit is mixing up the cause and effect of rejuvenating an urban area. (I also think most people on this post already know this) Plus, I’d be much more interested in seeing what happens when Detroiters open their own stores. (If they had the capital and the business climate to do it right.) | ||
Bearinabox Member Username: Bearinabox Post Number: 23 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 69.209.153.29 |
Washington and Lafayette are a few years behind Main, but they seem to be going the same way. Granted, a few of those shops are left, and granted, they are not the only indicator of an interesting or enjoyable urban space, but I was exaggerating somewhat to make a point. I don't consider Royal Oak as it is today a particularly interesting place to spend time. It's great for what it is, but it isn't my kind of place, and I don't think striving to make Detroit the same way is necessarily the best goal to work toward. That is my opinion based on what I consider interesting. I'm not sure how that makes me ignorant or elitist. | ||
Illwill Member Username: Illwill Post Number: 68 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 71.194.123.139 |
IMHO I think Detroit is doing just fine especially looking at how far it's come within the past 5-7 years. Of course things can be MUCH better than they are but it's gonna take time. As trivial as this may seem we do need more retail shops, barber shops, grocery stores etc... Restaurants and nightclubs are great to have, but we need the small businesses that help us get by day to day as well. I view Detroit as a city that is starting over which just happens to have a great infrastructure already in place. These things will come in time. Detroit just like every other city in the country can never and will never be a mega-city like Chicago, New York or San Francisco. These three cities are absolutely untouchable by far because of their size, height and population density. We can only be Detroit and whether this means living within a population that may lack close density then so be it. We have Detroit style and attitude and this is what sets us apart from the rest but we need celebrate it. It would be amazing if all of Michigan could express how much we love our big city and accept the fact that Detroit is the hub of this state instead of constantly bagging on it. Again, back to the topic of being young in the city, youth is not always the answer...diversity is the answer(age, race, sexual orientation etc...). When in Chicago or New York you'll always see many old couples walking down the street going to the market, sitting on a park bench or walking a grand child in their stroller. This is something I don't always see in The "D". What I'm trying to say is that Detroit needs everyday people from all walks of life. Yuppies and artist alone will not constitute a "cool city." I say give Detroit time because it's being born again. P.S. Am I the only person who thinks that this Mass Transit discussion in metro Detroit is kinda moot? I just thinks we're already to sprawled out and it's to late. | ||
Billpdx Member Username: Billpdx Post Number: 5 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 198.107.48.11 |
Improved transit is NOT ‘kinda moot.’ 1. A large population in Detroit can’t afford reliable personal transportation, or the insurance to cover it. Why must all transit tax dollars go to benefit those who have the means to own a car? Is there an income requirement in American for people to count as real citizens? (on second thought, don’t answer that) If these people can take reliable transportation to potential jobs, that’s one big step better than where they were. 2. Train tracks bring investment. You put tracks down, and developers start seeing possibilities. So do the banks that lend them money. This has proven out by cities who have added light rail over the past 10-20 years. 3. It’s harder for developers to sell condos without neighborhood services. Build a grocery store with condos on top, and you’ve got built-in customers for the store, and the store acts as a built-in incentive to buy the condo in the first place. Better yet, now you’ve got an urban grocery store… AND you’re building density in the community at large. (seriously – this is done all the time these days, at least in towns with trains.) 4. Transit’s main users aren’t using it to go shopping on the weekend in home depot. They’re taking it downtown and back everyday when they commute for work, or when they are going to a big event, like a ball game. It’s less hassle, and cheaper than parking. More people not driving means less need for parking lots, and also less traffic to compete with for the rest of us. (or at the very least, another option to get where you are going without being forced to drive in traffic jams.) Choices are a nice thing. Plus – For God’s sake, We have enough roads. Adding tracks is a lot better investment than adding more lanes of gridlock. | ||
Davidmausolf Member Username: Davidmausolf Post Number: 10 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 65.35.52.59 |
Don't you need to be getting the people from the suburbs back downtown in the first place? Wouldn't you consider that the first step to rebuilding the population in downtown Detroit. I'll be the first to say that the downtown detroit population during the day has increased in my opinion fairly rapidly to say 5 years ago, and I think a connection with the proposed light rail system would help. It would also be nice to start relocating the financial services back downtown. A strong financial district would bring a lot of people downtown and provide mostly reliable jobs. Detroit has plenty of industries, but they're all scattered around, and if they were more concentrated it would make more financial sense for people to live in Detroit. We don't need 1 million people realistically to live downtown to be a productive city. There's plenty of small downtown's who are quite productive and if we have a steady finanically secure population downtown that would be a big tax booster. Campus Mauritus, and the Riverfront Development project have really helped out downtown detroit, but we still need more. (Message edited by davidmausolf on June 02, 2006) If we're going to build a downtown have it stop at Campus Mauritus, and find out where most of the employees are living who work downtown, trilocate that and build a station there, and also one to the airport and Ann Arbor. That would make it pay to live downtown or at the very least work downtown. (Message edited by davidmausolf on June 02, 2006) | ||
Eastsidedog Member Username: Eastsidedog Post Number: 446 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 68.20.140.8 |
I don't know about the other city dwellers on this forum but lately I've been feeling more and more that getting suburbanites to move into the city isn't the answer to Detroit's population problems. It seems to me that at least half (if not more than half) of the transplants that I meet in the city are from out of state, often east coast cities like NYC and Boston. It seems to me that out-of-state urban dwellers are more willing to invest in the city and give it a chance than people from Michigan. In Indian Village and West Village I have met dozens of folks, usually from out east who have relocated to Detroit, either because of a spouse or a job transfer. These people lived in the city out east and when they saw what they could get in Detroit for the money, they JUMPED at the opportunity (you're saying I can own a historic home or huge loft for $250k! Where do I sign up!). More and more, it seems to me that folks from Michigan just don't get urban living even 1%.
Sorry Dialh4hipster. When I read Davidmausolf's thread I just couldn't believe what I was reading (I'll move to Detroit when it has a "trendy downtown", Detroit should be just like Ann Arbor, wtf!). Talk about diametrically opposed viewpoints! I promise to be a good dog and get along from now on... | ||
Tomoh Member Username: Tomoh Post Number: 190 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.136.10.153 |
Illwill, is it really impossible for Detroit to do the things that Chicago has done in the past 20 years? I'm sure if you were sitting in the year 1980 and see Chicago of today, you might also think that it'd be impossible for the one city to become the other, that you'd see that city and Detroit in similar states. New York, San Francisco, nah, much different cities and culture (San Francisco, though, is a smaller city population-wise, and is somewhere between Detroit and Chicago as far as height). But Detroit as a smaller Chicago? I think that's an appropriate vision. As a recent Economist article about Chicago's rebirth ended: "If a ferris wheel and a putting green on stilts can draw twice as many visitors each year as the Grand Canyon, the possibilities for Detroit should be boundless." | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 210 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 209.220.229.254 |
Yeah, Chicago was not that great as little as 15 years ago. Go watch Blues Brothers...see Chicago in the 80s. | ||
Lexdetroitman_07 Member Username: Lexdetroitman_07 Post Number: 44 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 74.131.204.36 |
I believe that Detroit has endless possibility for change. It all depends on who is in charge and what people want to see. If we really want to see the change, it will happen. Just give it time and nurture all the good ideas and help out in any way possible! Lexdetroitman_07 | ||
Tomoh Member Username: Tomoh Post Number: 191 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.136.10.153 |
ESD, there's lots more suburbanites than there are people moving to the Detroit area right now. Even if the percentage of those suburbanites who would even consider the city is smaller than those East Coast migrants, I think the sheer numbers (potentially) are way higher. Also, remember how many of those people in fact were city dwellers just a generation ago. I think it's an easier task to change sentiments than to increase the number of jobs for East/West Coasters to come to. I wish we had some of the progressive policies that PDX had in place, we don't. However, Portland has more than its share of sprawl, yet it's actively combatting that as a region (with no help from Washington state). Portland city is less dense than Detroit city; Portland metro is less dense than Detroit metro. But Portland has corridors that are dense enough to support light rail and it has the neighborhoods that can be well-served by 'streetcar' as well. Illwill, there's going to be a huge swath of land in metro Detroit that will probably never be served by rail, but that doesn't mean there aren't corridors that should be. Again, I recommend reading through some of TRU's literature to begin with. | ||
Billpdx Member Username: Billpdx Post Number: 6 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 198.107.48.11 |
------------------------------ ------------------------------ ------------------------------ ------------------------------ --------------------------- quote: Don't you need to be getting the people from the suburbs back downtown in the first place? Wouldn't you consider that the first step to rebuilding the population in downtown Detroit. ------------------------------ ------------------------------ ------------------------------ ------------------------------ --------------------------- If you mean more detroit-based jobs to get them to work downtown, than yes. The more people that spend their time in Detroit in their daily lives, the more stake they will have in its future. If you mean convince them to give up their suburban lifestyles for a home in the city, then no. Most of the people in the suburbs are there by choice. The ones that don't like that choice either moved away to a city with better urban options, or bought in Royal Oak or similiar. How are you going to lure the other suburbanites into Detroit? With a cheesecake factories and olive gardens? It won't work, and that's not Detroit, anyway. I think spending capital trying to lure unwitting suburbanites into living in town is misplaced energy. The largest percentage of potential new residents are people who are coming in from other places for jobs (or cheap housing), college grads, and kids of current suburbanites who are fed up with that lifestyle. Spend the capital on the people who already live here. If they stuck through the past 40 years, and they deserve it. Just make Detroit a nice place. Clean up the parks, put in some trains. Get some jobs for these people. Stop tearing down nice things. people will move here. Do it right, and it'll happen faster than you think. Now how to get there? Hell. Does anyone know? by the way, how do people do those fancy quote reference things? Mine don't look right. | ||
Rrl Member Username: Rrl Post Number: 518 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 209.181.212.60 |
billpdx <---See "Formating Tips" over there... | ||
Billpdx Member Username: Billpdx Post Number: 7 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 198.107.48.11 |
a ha! Thanks, Rrl. | ||
Illwill Member Username: Illwill Post Number: 69 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 71.194.123.139 |
Tomoh, I remember traveling to Chicago 15 years ago and telling my girl that "we should have stayed in Detroit". Chicago was a very dead city back then but even when they had a decrease in population, the city was still very dense, they had the "el", the metra and many more multi-family tenaments unlike Detroit which has mostly single family homes. But you're right, it was only in recent years that Chicago realized what a gem they have and decided to take advantage of it. I still put Chicago in the same catagory as NYC no question about it. It's just to bad that such a great city has to be wasted on a bunch of losers(I'll probably get hammered for that comment...but oh well). | ||
Eastsidedog Member Username: Eastsidedog Post Number: 466 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 68.20.140.8 |
Tomoh, I think this is where we disagree. Most of the boomers who live in the suburbs (we're talking mainly about white boomers right?) will likely die there or in Florida. I don't think they will change their minds ever, at least about where they live. But they might visit downtown a bit more as it gets nicer. On the other hand, I'm guessing that some black boomers might move back into the city, into townhouses or other condos, once their kids are grown, if they don't move down south to be closer to family.
I think this analysis is absolutely true. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 212 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 209.220.229.254 |
mmmm yes, race. There it is. | ||
Lexdetroitman_07 Member Username: Lexdetroitman_07 Post Number: 54 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 74.131.204.36 |
I consider Detroit as my number one destination right now, not only for the appeal that it has in my eyes, but because of the history and traditon it has and the entertainment value that I hold in high regards. I feel if I get there, I will never leave!! Lexdetroitman_07 | ||
Tomoh Member Username: Tomoh Post Number: 193 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.136.10.153 |
Illwill, you're right on about Chicago having the multi-unit dense housing in abundance whereas Detroit has vast detached housing. Makes it even sadder seeing any of Detroit's remaining apartment buildings vacant and abandoned. I believe it's important that new apartment buildings, as mixed use buildings, need to be built in areas like Midtown. Whether we have an el or not, we still need for there to be some dense and diverse streets for people to live in who seek that. Also, people in Chicago are more than willing to admit that there are too many douchebags living there. Eastsidedog, I don't even disagree that most of the boomers will ride out their years near their current homes or in some retirement community in (ugh) Florida. But some small percentage will give the downtown Detroit lifestyle a chance and I think the percentage is on the rise. What percentage of them would equal 1000 new retirees per year? Same goes for those recent college grads, especially those who grew up knowing only suburbia and now seek a more exciting densely-packed life. | ||
Davidmausolf Member Username: Davidmausolf Post Number: 11 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 65.35.52.59 |
It may be true that there are a lot of out of staters moving to Detroit, but it's much more practical for someone to move to downtown Detroit if they're already living in Metro Detroit (don't think we're including ann arbor in this). If you have transit, food stores, security, and start up companies you have a great base for the starting of a community. I know I stress yuppies and we need to be open to a variety of groups, but I believe people who aren't already "settled down" would be much more likely to move then someone who already has their kids in school. Transit would also provide a much more reliable transport system then SMART, everything could be very well planned out which would help people better coordinate their scheldules, there's probably a huge amount of time lost on transportation times alone. When gas prices start creeping up to $3.50/gallon I think you'll see an even larger push for mass-transit as less people are able to afford the gas. At some point it makes sense to make the system, we just need to figure it out, so hopefully the ann arbor-detroit study can answer that. | ||
Tomoh Member Username: Tomoh Post Number: 194 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.136.10.153 |
I think that surveys have shown that pushing gas prices up a mere 50 cents isn't enough to make people change their driving situation (moving closer to work, taking transit). It just makes them more pissed off. We need $6 gas, we need it to be a certain price in the future, we need time to better plan for it to happen. | ||
Llyn Member Username: Llyn Post Number: 1555 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 68.61.197.206 |
I've dne my share of sidewalk chalk art. I want my cool cities grant now, please. |
