Discuss Detroit Archives - Beginning January 2006 Rock rumors are a-swirlin' Previous Next
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Apbest
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Username: Apbest

Post Number: 72
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 68.40.65.66
Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 2:02 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I keep hearing these rumors about "reliable sources" saying that Rock deal is done with. However, the Crains article seemed to indicate that it was pretty much a done deal and we were deciding between Statler and Woodward...whats the deal? and maybe as much source info as possible, if its dead why?

As we count the days...exactly 29 before redico has to announce the Woodward block
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Detroitstar
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Username: Detroitstar

Post Number: 53
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 35.8.144.6
Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 2:22 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Do you mean "done with" like "not happening" or "done with" like "decision made".
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Apbest
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Username: Apbest

Post Number: 73
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 68.40.65.66
Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 4:24 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

done with as in not happening
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Dabirch
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Username: Dabirch

Post Number: 1523
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 208.44.117.10
Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 4:38 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

By "keep hearing rumors" do you mean motorcitymayor and Ndavies posts?

Or are their actually people at the watercooler talking about Rock's potential move?
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Apbest
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Username: Apbest

Post Number: 75
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 68.40.65.66
Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 6:01 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

well im referring to forum members, who have been saying they have credible sources regarding the demise of the HQ in Detroit...I believe those are the 2 that posted regarding it. I just wanted people who claim to have credible sources for such information to explain more what they know
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The_rock
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Username: The_rock

Post Number: 1276
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.42.251.225
Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 6:05 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Don't knock the Rock
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Motorcitymayor2026
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Username: Motorcitymayor2026

Post Number: 853
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 24.231.189.137
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 12:52 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Without giving away the name, some of you may be able to figure out who I am talking about...

The head of this Southfield development and real estate firm specifically said that he was in on the discussions, and that it was a dead deal. While he wouldnt go into the specifics of why it was a no-go, he firmly believed that Rock would not be moving downtown.

This guy deals daily with Detroit, mostly the suburbs though, and some may remember him as he nearly purchased the Broderick Tower a few years back...
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Wolverine
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Username: Wolverine

Post Number: 163
Registered: 04-2004
Posted From: 24.231.201.120
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 2:10 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Enough of the stupid rumors. Post when there are solid facts in writing from credible sources.
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Eric
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Username: Eric

Post Number: 466
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 35.11.210.161
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 3:07 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I disagree this forum does have a good track record with inside information I see no reason wait around for the fishwraps. Some here would consider Ndavies a credible source the fact he back up MCM2026 certainly lends weight to the rumor.
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Machoken
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Username: Machoken

Post Number: 1264
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.85.155.145
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 5:44 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You guys just ruined my day. I missed Ndavies and the future mayor's previous posts about this being a dead deal.
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1953
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Username: 1953

Post Number: 845
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 209.104.146.146
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 9:16 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Funny, I know a planning and development director who seems to think this deal is a done deal, as in going to happen.
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Rjlj
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Username: Rjlj

Post Number: 54
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 63.171.81.135
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 9:35 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Broderick Tower was never for sale though there were offers made for it because they thought the owner would give it up cheaply which was not the case. Take everything you read on this board with a grain of salt.
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Ndavies
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Username: Ndavies

Post Number: 1863
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 129.9.163.233
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 9:37 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, That P&D director needs to go talk to the people working the deal. As of Tuesday night, my source says the deal is being put in severe jeopardy due to the meddling of a third party. Not quite dead yet, but in serious trouble.
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Rjlj
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Username: Rjlj

Post Number: 55
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 63.171.81.135
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 9:45 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think I can figure out who the 3rd party is based on other posts.
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Itsjeff
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Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 6002
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 208.27.111.125
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 9:50 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rasputin?
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Dabirch
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Username: Dabirch

Post Number: 1526
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 208.44.117.10
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 9:55 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

...due to the meddling of a third party...Rasputin?




Damn that crazy monk.

Foiled one more rascist plot for the man to come and reclaim the city.
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3rdworldcity
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Username: 3rdworldcity

Post Number: 247
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 69.212.45.63
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 10:39 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As of Tuesday afternoon, the State of Michigan and other undisclosed but necessary parties were still massaging a large incentive package to make the deal work and the possibility of Rock moving here was very much alive then, and is today.
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E_hemingway
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Username: E_hemingway

Post Number: 702
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.42.176.123
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 10:52 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ndavies: We'd all love to hear who the meddling third party is, but if you can't name that party can you tell us its motivation or how it is meddling?

I sincerly hope this deal is alive, well and progressing.
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Merchantgander
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Username: Merchantgander

Post Number: 1831
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 150.198.150.244
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 10:54 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My guess is the meddling 3rd party has allot of empty office space in Southfield they want to lease.
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Ndavies
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Username: Ndavies

Post Number: 1865
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 129.9.163.106
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 11:24 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Follow the money. The City owns 100% of the Hudson's site. What about the other site? How much extra money does the city and state have to come up with to buy the rest of the land on the other site? Who's pocket will that direct city/state subsidy end up in?
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Motorcitymayor2026
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Username: Motorcitymayor2026

Post Number: 856
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 24.231.189.137
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 11:27 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh, now its clear...

So if that were to be cleared up, Rock itself is still very interested in moving downtown?
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Rocket_city
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Username: Rocket_city

Post Number: 39
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 141.217.214.203
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 11:57 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The whole Rock Financial fiasco has a 50-50 chance at happening, given our awareness of the move/expansion.

It should come as no surprise if the company does not move downtown, despite positive dialogue in the past. Bottom line is, they have not made a decision public yet.

Sure it would be a disappointment, but certainly not a surprise...given there's only two possible options (move downtown or not move downtown).
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Supersport
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Username: Supersport

Post Number: 10141
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 64.118.137.226
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 12:30 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I heard that David Hall is currently deciding between a place in either 1001 Woodward or atop the Book Cadillac. He was overheard by a reliable source stating "I want to live close to work."
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Rjlj
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Username: Rjlj

Post Number: 57
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 63.171.81.135
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 12:34 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is not D. Hall's decision.
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Motorcitymayor2026
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Username: Motorcitymayor2026

Post Number: 857
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 24.231.189.137
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 12:39 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

it is D. Hall's decision as to where he wants to live :-)
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Ndavies
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Username: Ndavies

Post Number: 1866
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 129.9.163.106
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 12:40 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, but sport's just full of shit.
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Motorcitymayor2026
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Username: Motorcitymayor2026

Post Number: 858
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 24.231.189.137
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 12:42 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh I know, mocking me most likely...hence the :-)
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 7499
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.159.19
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 12:48 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Follow the money. The City owns 100% of the Hudson's site. What about the other site? How much extra money does the city and state have to come up with to buy the rest of the land on the other site? Who's pocket will that direct city/state subsidy end up in?




Mr. Pieroni (If I recall his name correctly)? The owner of the AAA building trying to charge a ridiculous sum for his building putting the Statler site in jeopardy.

Just a guess. If I am wrong I offer my apologies to Mr. Pieroni (again, If I recall his name correctly)
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Gmich99
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Username: Gmich99

Post Number: 100
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 24.208.243.207
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 1:15 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My source could beat up your source!
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Deputy_mayor_2026
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Username: Deputy_mayor_2026

Post Number: 59
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 1:47 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

MCM was trying to post something he had heard. I see it done here all the time. No one claimed anything for sure, and it should have been taken for what it is worth and nothing more. There is no need to squabble over it for days in typical Dyes fashion!
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 2219
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 4.229.90.29
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 1:59 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Anthony Pieroni (principal owner of the Michigan and AAA Buildings) has a tenant (AAA) paying a 99 year lease, probably for another decade. And he has a lawsuit against folks involved with the Statler demo. Yeah I can sorta see why folks would think of that as being an impediment.

But as he stated on this forum, "It is in his own best interest to NOT be an impediment to redevelopment of the Statler site" (since it would enhance the value of his Michigan Building next door).

He also stated that he wanted to be a "participant" in the development of that site. Sounds fair to me!

We have to remember that Mr. Pieroni has been the only businessman to see value in doing business in that stretch of Bagley for over a decade, while others have given it up for dead.

I'd give him the benefit of the doubt....

(Message edited by Gistok on June 01, 2006)
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Mind_field
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Username: Mind_field

Post Number: 563
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.21.37.89
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 2:33 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well whoever is putting a downtown move by Rock in jeopardy should be shot or put in jail.
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Haydenth
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Username: Haydenth

Post Number: 68
Registered: 05-2005
Posted From: 67.107.50.35
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 2:50 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hmm. I think that's a bit extreme.
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Rjlj
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Username: Rjlj

Post Number: 58
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 63.171.81.135
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 3:01 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hmmm, 99 year lease???? Glad to see it is occupied and the tenant is using their money wisely. Nice tactic. He does know what he is doing and what he is doing is trying to get the most out of his investment. He is dealing with 3 players with very large wallets but he can also ruin it for all. Kind of like how the rest of downtown has remained stagnant over the years, people holding on to property thinking it is more valuable than it really is when others would love to put it to good use. Kind of like how the CC Bar sits at Cass & Columbia. Right in the middle of where the new hockey arena will be holding out for the right price.
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Ndavies
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Username: Ndavies

Post Number: 1870
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 129.9.163.106
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 3:02 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You guys are looking at the wrong side of the street.
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Gumby
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Username: Gumby

Post Number: 1203
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.60.143.186
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 3:11 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It seems to me like you are alluding to Ilitch Ndavies. I take it Rock wants to use the Tuller site as well and Mr. I is obstructing.
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Wazootyman
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Username: Wazootyman

Post Number: 57
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 68.75.220.9
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 3:11 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't understand why there's so much focus on Rock moving downtown. It's just one lousy corporation that is considering relocating.

Against the popular opinion of this board, I don't see benefit in a company moving downtown if it creates major vacancies in surrounding communities. I'd love to see downtown benefit, but I don't want to see my city suffer as a result. Yes, we're pure, uncut evil in Livonia, but I'm actually sympathetic to my community.

Besides, I'm not sure how solid of a company Rock is anyhow. Pure speculation on my part, I just know a few people who work there, and there are some things about the company that just don't settle well with me. They're pushy, they advertise way too much, and their so-called "mortgage experts" are often high school grads with a few weeks training under their belts. I don't dislike the company, I just don't think they're the Godsend that they're made out to be on this forum.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 7503
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 198.208.159.19
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 3:14 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Against the popular opinion of this board, I don't see benefit in a company moving downtown if it creates major vacancies in surrounding communities. I'd love to see downtown benefit, but I don't want to see my city suffer as a result.




If only people thought that way about Detroit for the last 50 years. Livonia and the surrounding areas have always been more than happy to lure business away from Detroit so I won't shed a single tear for any suburb that loses jobs and businesses to the city.

Turnabout is fair play.
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Detourdetroit
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Username: Detourdetroit

Post Number: 216
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 152.163.100.8
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 3:20 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree somehwat with Wazoot's assessment of Rock Financial, especially in this housing market and with their lending practices--thanks for the insight. And I understand Wazoot's Livonia bias.

However, I'm somewhat of an extremist in my Detroit/centrist bias. This region, including Livonia, will NEVER sustain without Detroit having a stabilized core. I would argue that dozens or hundreds of medium to large corporations should reinvest in downtown Detroit, possibly at the expense of their current location, even Rosedale Gardens, which was spared thanks to cooler heads during the recent invasion. Restore the Core. 'Nuff said.
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Quinn
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Username: Quinn

Post Number: 733
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 69.242.213.101
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 3:20 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Calm down everyone. Ndavies...as I've said before...D. Hall doesn't want to lease some old space out...no matter how great the deal.

QL and Rock fancy themselves as "cool" and "hip." Beleive me...it's going to happen (a move downtown). Let everyone try to get them deals elsewhere. It's not gonna screw up any Detroit move...

What kind of PR shithead would let them yak about it for a year, dropping hints here and there in interviews, building up momentum and getting their employees (some of my best friends) all excited about it, holding sessions with Compuware employees to see what they thought of the move and how they adjusted and what CW could have done better (i could go on and on), only to crap all over it and say "we're moving to Northville?" ????

Get real and stop being overly dramatic. It's going to be great. It's going to be exciting. It's going to happen!
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Wazootyman
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Username: Wazootyman

Post Number: 58
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 68.75.220.9
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 3:20 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's all about who makes a better deal. I don't see much benefit for a company like Rock to move downtown except for the visual presence of a skyscraper.

I would say without a doubt that it's much, much cheaper for them to remain in Livonia, and moving downtown would be primarily a symbolic gesture.

Livonia loses business to places like Novi, Northville, Plymouth, Canton and Auburn Hills because land out there is cheaper and abundant. Look at an industrial park in Livonia, and the vacancy rates are quite high. However, I see constant expansion and new construction of office parks all over in the aforementioned cities. Sometimes it's all about the cheapest location to do business.

Edit - I totally agree though, a strong core is important. However, Livonia is becoming more and more of part of the core as sprawl continues to push westward.

(Message edited by wazootyman on June 01, 2006)
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Rjlj
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Username: Rjlj

Post Number: 59
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 63.171.81.135
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 3:23 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is good becuase there have not been any other large businesses looking at moving downtown. If they don't move downtown then who is next in line and who is going to bring people downtown? The festivals only happen a few weekends out of the year. Livonia will be fine with their new WallMart.
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E_hemingway
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Username: E_hemingway

Post Number: 706
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.42.176.123
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 3:27 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gotta agree with Jt1. Plus, Livonia loosing Rock won't have much of a ripple affect in that area. That office space will be fill up again. The suburbs that Compuware and Little Ceasars moved from didn't suffer. However, Rock moving downtown will have a huge impact on the city's core and overall positive affect on the metro area.

Also, I feel less worried if the Ilitch family is the meddling third party. That means its about money. I had daymares of someone with a personal or political agenda unreasonably meddling with the intention of screwing it all up. If it is the Ilitch family then it's more than likely the city and state will find a way to make it work for them. It will cost some tax dollars, but I would be fine with that if Rock moves downtown. Just make it work.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 2220
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 4.229.90.29
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 3:27 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No Ndavies, the surviving building on the Statler block is called the AAA Building. They also leased space in the United Artists Building, if that is what you were referring to?

As for a new Arena.... Rjlj.... it is called EMINENT DOMAIN. They couldn't use it for the casinos, but they could and DID use it for Comerica Park and Ford Field. So although recent court rulings in Connecticut and at the Michigan Supreme Court (in the case of the Poletown Plant) have made it harder to use Eminent Domain, I believe it can still be used for a new Arena.

And as for Mr. Pieroni being just a slumlord holding onto buildings hoping for a future jackpot.... let me just suffice to say that Mr. Pieroni is not a cash poor/building rich man like Mr. Higgins, and being a downtown building owner is not his major business interest.

And you won't see any piece of his building falling off the exterior onto the sidewalk (unlike his rich neighbor to the north).

I know Mr. Pieroni, so I am afraid I cannot say more. However, if he indeed "were allowed" to become a minority partner in a Statler site project, it would be of more substance that most here would expect.
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Ndavies
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Username: Ndavies

Post Number: 1871
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 129.9.163.233
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 3:44 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am talking about the UA and tuller sites. The Statler site is not big enough for Rock and the huge ass parking deck they need. The Statler, UA and tuller site are being marketed together by Olympia. How much money are you, the citizens of Detroit and the State of michigan, willing to pay Ilitch to have Rock financial move downtown. The city doesn't want to pay them the money either.

We would need to susidize Rock moving to the Hudson's block. We have to subsidize Rock, Ilitch and Pieroni to have Rock move to the Statler site.
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Mind_field
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Username: Mind_field

Post Number: 564
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.21.37.89
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 4:14 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rock will be subsidized in some form or another wherever they move to, that is just the corporate welfare games that companies can get away with playing these days. And if Ilitch ends up being the reason Rock decides against downtown, it will be official, Ilitch is the antichrist. Won't property taxes and the city income tax balance out any subsidy the city would have to pay for Rock to move to Detroit?

And looks like Ndavies has replaced skulker as one of the forum's most valuable insiders, along with KDG and itsjeff.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 2222
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 4.229.90.29
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 4:27 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well if it's both Statler and Tuller blocks, then there's a 4th player.... a Mr. Harold Shapiro of Bloomfield Hills.

A few months back someone did some tax records investigations on the Tuller Block, and it seems that Mr. Shapiro owns the small parking lot located between the UA entrance, and the Tuller site.

He also owns a larger parking lot on the backside of the block at the corner of Adams and Clifford.

Hornwrecker posted an old map of the block (from the 1930's) showing that these 2 parcels have been empty for over 70 years.

And one other interesting fact is that the Tuller block is slightly larger than the Statler block.

(Message edited by Gistok on June 01, 2006)
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3rdworldcity
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Username: 3rdworldcity

Post Number: 249
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 69.212.45.63
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 4:28 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gistok: No chance of eminent domain in Michigan, certainly not in this case. Our Supreme Court so ruled last fall. In MI, it can be used only for true public purposes and not economic development purposes where one's land will be conveyed to another private party.

I know Pieroni and left a message at his office re: this thread.

Ndavies: You are truly clueless. Do you think that a Rock development on the Hudson's site would not involve a huge public subsidy? Do you proposed the City just give them the land? Surely you don't. That would make the subsidy even worse.
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Gumby
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Username: Gumby

Post Number: 1210
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.60.143.186
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 4:32 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Stop being an ass 3rdworldcity

quote:

We would need to susidize Rock moving to the Hudson's block. We have to subsidize Rock, Ilitch and Pieroni to have Rock move to the Statler site.



Ndavies clearly stated that there would be subsidation if they moved to the hudson's block.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 2223
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 4.229.90.29
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 4:37 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

3WC, looks like we both contacted him.... I emailed him earlier. He replied that he's going out of town, but will respond either today or tomorrow.

Also, my Eminent Domain response was only for an Arena in the west Foxtown area, not for the Statler/Tuller site. They can still use it for a new "publicly" owned arena, can't they?
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Tkelly1986
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Username: Tkelly1986

Post Number: 76
Registered: 01-2004
Posted From: 68.251.36.230
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 5:02 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If the Tuller Block is slightly larger, why has that block not been mentioned as a possible location? Does the city not own that one?
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Hamtramck_steve
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Username: Hamtramck_steve

Post Number: 2979
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.215.74.104
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 5:39 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No, they don't. Ilitch owns the Tuller parcel.
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Jasoncw
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Username: Jasoncw

Post Number: 159
Registered: 07-2005
Posted From: 67.149.141.170
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 5:45 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Even if it's not any of those sites, there are still plenty of other places around downtown they could build on.
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Ndavies
Member
Username: Ndavies

Post Number: 1872
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.227.216.90
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 5:45 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What's the matter 3rdworldcity? Is Someone cutting into your government subsidy.

Yes, as I said the Hudson block requires a subsidy. However they don't need to buy and demo 2 buildings, They don't need to build all new parking. Hudsons already has about a third of the needed parking built. They don't need to pay two or three major companies for their property.

So if the Hudon's site needs subsidies, how much more does it cost me as a tax payer to pay off all these multimillion dollar third parties to put Rock in downtown.

If Rock ends up on the statler site, Steve Wilson better be banging on all the doors around GCP, Lansing and east Jefferson. Us taxpayers will have been royally fleeced.

There's a superb site, a couple blocks down Woodward that is more suitable for Rock and costs less by at least all the cash that's going to speculators.
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Naturalsister
Member
Username: Naturalsister

Post Number: 690
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.255.167.138
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 5:53 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wazootywhatever-

If it's only the presence of a skyscraper, why do you not want them to leave Livonia?

You're full of S**T!!!!!!!!!!!!!

later - naturalsister
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Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 3818
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 24.11.154.56
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 6:01 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gistok, what exactly do you mean by "the Statler site is too small?" Do you mean that they don't want to build too tall? I've never heard of a corporation not choosing a site because it's two small in the middle of a downtown area.

BTW, I'm not even thinking about Livonia. They aren't even in the equation.
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Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok

Post Number: 2224
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 4.229.105.167
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 6:29 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I didn't say the Statler site is too small... all I said was the Tuller Block was slightly larger (based on one of Hornwreckers old maps of west GCP).

And to answer the question of whether they were to build on the Tuller vs. Statler block (for the office tower)... the Statler block fronts Washington Blvd. (in addition to GCP), a more prestigious street than Bagley, which is much narrower. And since Washington Blvd. is so very wide, many of the Washington Blvd. side office windows would also have GCP views. Bagley Ave. facing windows would have less spectacular views, especially of GCP.
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Gumby
Member
Username: Gumby

Post Number: 1213
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.60.143.186
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 6:29 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So it sounds to me that you are saying the Statler location is dead not the move to downtown. Hudsons sounds like it is still in the running.
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Ndavies
Member
Username: Ndavies

Post Number: 1876
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.227.216.90
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 6:44 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rock doesn't want to be on the Hudson's site due to the afore mentioned meddling.
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Gumby
Member
Username: Gumby

Post Number: 1218
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.60.143.186
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 6:47 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ahhhhh, my head is going to explode. I thought the third party meddling was Ilitch overcharging for the tuller site. Man this code speak sucks. Why can't someone just put it all down on one post?
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Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok

Post Number: 2226
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 4.229.105.167
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 6:53 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LOL... Gumby... I'm confused now as well!
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Hamtramck_steve
Member
Username: Hamtramck_steve

Post Number: 2980
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.215.74.104
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 6:58 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm confused, too. Thankfully, we have no rules against confused posting here. Could you imagine how few posts there would be if knowlege or wisdom were required?
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Machoken
Member
Username: Machoken

Post Number: 1265
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.85.155.145
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 8:57 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm confused as to how Ndavies, a professed engineer in the auto industry, allegedly has so much inside info.
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Gumby
Member
Username: Gumby

Post Number: 1219
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 204.39.224.180
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 9:32 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am guessing it has to do with the fact that he is a partner in the redevelopment of a prominant building and through this he probably has met a few people in the know.

(Message edited by gumby on June 01, 2006)
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Machoken
Member
Username: Machoken

Post Number: 1267
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.85.155.145
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 9:44 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, I was leaning towards that too, but nevertheless his statements regarding all this from what I've seen are too vague and too "I'm in the know and you aren't, nanner-nanner!" to make me even want to try to draw conclusions.
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Gumby
Member
Username: Gumby

Post Number: 1221
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 204.39.224.180
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 11:03 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah he does that sometimes. But I give him a pass and don't usually call him on it because he is a nice guy when you meet him in person. Now all you pricks I meet in person look out. lol.
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Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1

Post Number: 7505
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 4.229.99.186
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 11:12 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Rock doesn't want to be on the Hudson's site due to the afore mentioned meddling.




My apologies to Mr. Pieroni.
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Itsjeff
Member
Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 6018
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.242.213.167
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 11:16 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know Pieroni and left a message at his office re: this thread.

Heh. Let us know if he gets it.
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Bobj
Member
Username: Bobj

Post Number: 723
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.40.89.238
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 11:17 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would bet that with a deal this big, very few people are "in the know" and I doubt any of them are spending all this time posting on Detroityes. I have been on the edge of deals like this, not "in the know", and it usually comes down to a hand full of high level people that really know what's going on - I have not been one of them.
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Erikd
Member
Username: Erikd

Post Number: 636
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.242.214.106
Posted on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 2:24 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There are very few developments of this scale that happen without any second thoughts or temporary setbacks.

There have been many credible sources that have claimed that the Brush Park project was dead, the Harmonie Park Hilton was dead, the Kales project was dead, the Jefferson Village project was dead, the Merchants Row project was dead, the permanent casinos were dead, the Book Cadillac project was dead, etc...
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Merchantgander
Member
Username: Merchantgander

Post Number: 1841
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 150.198.150.244
Posted on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 7:53 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

And looks like Ndavies has replaced skulker as one of the forum's most valuable insiders, along with KDG and itsjeff.




Itsjeff? The only subject he is an insider about is who was at the bar for the FSC. :-)

(Message edited by Merchantgander on June 02, 2006)
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1953
Member
Username: 1953

Post Number: 848
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 209.104.146.146
Posted on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 9:12 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You forgot to mention Danny. He always has things right on.
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Tony_pieroni
Member
Username: Tony_pieroni

Post Number: 10
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 64.53.238.2
Posted on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 12:01 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

For those interested:

In 2002 the Director of the DEGC during a telephone conversation (regarding another matter) asked me if I would be interested in selling the 139 Bagley building. I said I was not interested in selling. He said, "That's OK, the City does not have any money to purchase it." I went on to state that in the event the DEGC ever came up with a developer for the block I would be glad to discuss selling the property to the developer (assuming I controlled the real estate, which at the time I did not.) I also stated that for tax and other reasons, rather than selling, I may wish to participate in the development in some way if I thought it made sense to me. (Note: the Director now states he hardly remembers the conversation and disputes my recollection in some respects. He's wrong.)

What everyone agrees is that at no time did the City offer to buy my real estate nor did I ever express a willingness to even discuss a sale until a developer comes up with a plan.

I have never floated even a trial balloon price for the real estate to the City, the DEGC, or any potential developer. (I am not aware of any potential developers, including Rock, other than what I read in the papers.)

During a deposition on May 23, 2006, The Director of the DEGC stated under oath:

1. DEGC does not have a developer for the S-H site.

2. DEGC plans to market the S-H site for development AROUND the 139 Bagley building.

3. That (# 2 above) has always been the DEGC's plan and that is its current plan.

The Director also stated during the deposition on May 23d that he did not know the location of the Tuller Hotel site, thinking it was somewhere around the MGM development, and not until prompted did he recognize it was the land across the street from the S-H site and that it is owned by Ilitch.

Enough said.

(This forum apparently has many observers/posters as I have been contacted by several people who I know who have told me about this thread and asked me to tell them "what is going on," as if I know more than what I've stated above; I don't. My plan is to repair the fire damaged building at the conclusion of the fire related litigation unless there is very compelling reason not to do that, such as a viable plan to develop the S-H site in a way which requires my real estate, which according to the DEGC is not on the table.)
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Drm
Member
Username: Drm

Post Number: 962
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 70.236.173.151
Posted on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 2:00 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am soooooo important and so many people call me to tell me what's on the forum. Give me a break, you know why you know what's on the forum - you're on here everyday. It's obvious who you are. Get over yourself.
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Hamtramck_steve
Member
Username: Hamtramck_steve

Post Number: 2985
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.252.71.43
Posted on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 4:51 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"It's obvious who you are."

Is that because his screen name is "Tony_pieroni"?
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Jasoncw
Member
Username: Jasoncw

Post Number: 167
Registered: 07-2005
Posted From: 67.149.141.170
Posted on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 5:07 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

geeze Drm, don't be a jerk. Out of all of the business owners downtown, how many of them come here being so open about what they know? You should be happy.

So I guess that clears up some stuff about the Statler site then.
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Apbest
Member
Username: Apbest

Post Number: 78
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 68.40.65.66
Posted on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 9:07 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

what exactly does that mean in relation to Rock though?
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Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok

Post Number: 2239
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 4.229.72.89
Posted on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 11:09 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Drm, are you being rude to Mr. Pieroni because of this....

A few folks on this forum believe that 3rdworldcity is Anthony Pieroni. I shall set the rumor straight. That is NOT the case. I've received "business hours" Emails from both... they don't even have the same internet provider....

(Message edited by Gistok on June 03, 2006)
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Drm
Member
Username: Drm

Post Number: 965
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.212.52.213
Posted on Sunday, June 04, 2006 - 2:35 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Drm, are you being rude to Mr. Pieroni because of this....


It's obvious that 3rdworldcity is Anothony Pieroni to any 4th grader. Nice job on outing him by the way.
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Rustic
Member
Username: Rustic

Post Number: 2522
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 71.234.183.131
Posted on Sunday, June 04, 2006 - 4:00 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Drm ... nonsense! Next yer gonna say that Danny isn't a street prophet but Ghettoman himself. Re-adjust your tinfoil hat that's just craaazy talk.
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Vandykenjefferson
Member
Username: Vandykenjefferson

Post Number: 3
Registered: 06-2006
Posted From: 68.40.195.233
Posted on Sunday, June 04, 2006 - 4:20 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think one major factor that some concerned people might be forgetting is that ultimately, the state has a lot more money, and thus power, in this transaction than any city involved. If you read this:

http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.d ll/article?AID=/20060524/OPINI ON03/605240369/1322

You'll see that he indeed does say that the state is in favor of the Detroit sites.
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Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok

Post Number: 2243
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 4.229.3.119
Posted on Sunday, June 04, 2006 - 12:34 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Drm... that 4th grade analogy is very good... because you really are clueless.... "My mind is already made up so don't bother confusing me with the facts"!

Well for the rest of you with at least half a wit.... they are not the same person. I've met Mr. Pieroni and he is a great guy, much nicer than 3WC. (Sorry 3WC!!)
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Drm
Member
Username: Drm

Post Number: 968
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.219.102.239
Posted on Sunday, June 04, 2006 - 1:00 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Drm... that 4th grade analogy is very good... because you really are clueless.... "My mind is already made up so don't bother confusing me with the facts"!


I haven't read any facts, only an assertion from a person on an Internet forum.
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Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok

Post Number: 2246
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 4.229.81.115
Posted on Sunday, June 04, 2006 - 8:16 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Drm, sorry to get so snippy.... but that rumor that you heard probably got started back on a early 2006 thread about either the Statler or Tuller/UA site when I tried subtly to ask (as though there is any subtlety on this forum)... I asked 3WC if he owned a "unique" parking structure. And he said no.

Well as we all know rumors take on a life of their own.... and since then I have become certain that it is not the case. But it probably made the rounds at the FSC watering hole.... and that's the stuff of urban legends.

So before you say "methinks he doth protest too much"... consider those facts.
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Drm
Member
Username: Drm

Post Number: 969
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.215.17.208
Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 10:09 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No ptoblem, Gistok, and it doesn't matter to me either way. I probably overreacted in my initial message on this thread.

For what its worth, if there was a rumor going around, I've never heard it.
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3rdworldcity
Member
Username: 3rdworldcity

Post Number: 250
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 69.212.45.63
Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 11:35 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gistok/drm: The debate continues. I love it. Pieroni is not nearly cynical enough to be me. (I've known him a long time.)

Gistok: You mentioned above that P and I "don't have the same internet provider." Mine is msn.com. But, how in the world can one person know who another person's internet provider is?
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Focusonthed
Member
Username: Focusonthed

Post Number: 221
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 209.220.229.254
Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 11:39 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Your IP address, though that doesn't necessarily PROVE anything, as one of you could be posting from an office, etc.
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Jasoncw
Member
Username: Jasoncw

Post Number: 171
Registered: 07-2005
Posted From: 67.149.141.170
Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 12:26 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

which is the number that is listed next to "posted from:" to the left.
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Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 799
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 9:31 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Those are a coded message from Captain Midnight to his Secret Squadron. Buy some Ovaltine and mail in its label with some money to get your secret decoder ring.

It probably says, "Drink more Ovaltine."



(Message edited by LivernoisYard on June 05, 2006)
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3rdworldcity
Member
Username: 3rdworldcity

Post Number: 252
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 68.255.246.18
Posted on Tuesday, June 06, 2006 - 10:35 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Livernoisyard: What great memories you've stirred up.

I, like every other kid at the time, got screwed by Captain Midnight and his decoder ring. I never drank Ovaltine again (it tasted lousy as I recall), but did sell my ring to a neighbor kid for a nickel.

The Captain is why I'm the cynic I am today. (Can't buy that kind of education.)

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