Discuss Detroit Archives - Beginning January 2006 Greektown Casino Update Previous Next
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Bvos
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Username: Bvos

Post Number: 1481
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.238.170.40
Posted on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 12:31 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here's a new rendering of Greektown and an update on their troubles.

It looks OK, but the parking ramp looks like a parking ramp. I can't believe they couldn't design it in a way that looked more like a building and less like a parking ramp.

http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060602/BIZ/606020399

(Message edited by BVos on June 02, 2006)
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 1644
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 71.144.81.93
Posted on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 12:58 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You can never tell what the real materials will look like on the finished product (especially in terms of colors). This looks pretty good, and will add a lot of the eastern edge of the skyline. I don't mind the parking garage looking like a parking garage, because the first two stories don't, and the retail in there will effectively extend Greektown another block.

I hope the first story of the casino turns out as shown--red brick with stone accents, to make what you see at street level blend with the rest of Monroe St.
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Leidio
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Username: Leidio

Post Number: 8
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 69.208.245.52
Posted on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 1:04 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

the building is a tasteless eyesore with no empathy to its surroundings. oh wait, that's exactly what the detroit casinos are.
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 1645
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 71.144.81.93
Posted on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 1:06 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm not so sure you could contend that about Greektown, but definitly for the other two, which have created spread-out fortresses outside of the central city.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 2233
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 4.229.3.85
Posted on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 1:41 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well now that I have had a few weeks to mull over the design....

That is the same old photo from a few weeks ago. The tower is (IMHO) butt ugly, and in no way relates to the rest of Greektown. The parking structure isn't too bad, but I detest those glass towers in front of them (stair wells?).

Mackinaw... true the first floor may blend in with the rest of Greektown... but it will be dwarfed by the other 32 floors which will stand out like a sore thumb.

Greektown has a LOT of warmth to its' architecture, the orange brick, the classic details... but this building has no warmth at all. Just cold modern architecture. I don't mind it being modern, but it doesn't have to be "cold and modern" all at the same time. Just more glass and steel....

The only warmth that this building shows is in the parking structure... and that doesn't say much.
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Naturalsister
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Username: Naturalsister

Post Number: 700
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.255.167.138
Posted on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 3:28 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What angle is that. I can't tell.

later - naturalsister
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Hamtramck_steve
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Username: Hamtramck_steve

Post Number: 2982
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 136.181.195.17
Posted on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 3:36 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You're standing at Loco's and looking toward Old St. Mary's.
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 1652
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 71.144.81.93
Posted on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 3:40 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Looking NE. If you were near the current valet area, looking towards the new site. There is the outline of the church that would obstruct you shown in that rendition.

Gistok--it's far from perfect; I look at this from two aspects though. One, the streetscape view. It better blend with the late Victorian Greektown to some extent. Any architectural ignoramus can pick up the neat pattern of the buildings in Greektown. The other aspect is the skyline view, because this will be big enough and in a particular location that will be widely seen. I don't mind an attention grabbing tower for this purpose, but it can't be too quirky. While the tall structure will loom over Greektown, I don't think it will detract too much, because of the sight-lines created by the narrowness of Monroe St.

I think their going in the right direction with this concept. Blending the first couple stories with the rest of Monroe is paramount, though.
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Matt_the_deuce
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Username: Matt_the_deuce

Post Number: 643
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.14.248.252
Posted on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 3:59 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm not that bummed about the glass design, it can work as a nice contrast to the surrounding buildings. I like the fact that the height will shoot upward out of the neighborhood. I much prefer high rises popping up every now and then filled in by lower building heights around them. You can see the buildings better. They don't get lost in a crowd and look better from a distance too. My one beef with NYC is that there are so many buildings with similar heights that you can't really get a good look at any of them, unless they have their space. I also have another beef and that's that I think that there are a ton of non descript/ugly ass buildings in Manhattan, but that's another thread.

As for the Greektown Casino, I would like to think of the John Hancock tower in Copley Square, Boston as a big brother comparison.

pic
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Dialh4hipster
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Username: Dialh4hipster

Post Number: 1638
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 75.6.255.129
Posted on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 4:06 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't hate it, and I sure like it more than the MGM plan. Overall, a pretty good effort, given the obstacles and the commitment to working in that area.
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Matt_the_deuce
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Username: Matt_the_deuce

Post Number: 644
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.14.248.252
Posted on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 4:08 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

another

pic
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 1657
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 71.144.81.93
Posted on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 4:25 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That has to be the tallest in Boston.

Some visually pleasing angles there, and it certainly illustrates the point of new next to old.
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Jasoncw
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Username: Jasoncw

Post Number: 164
Registered: 07-2005
Posted From: 67.149.141.170
Posted on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 5:44 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think the building is very vivid and busy, which imo isn't bad for an entertainment type district. And it looks like the shiny glass at the bottom tilts down, so it will reflect the street and whatever motion and busyness is going on there, as well as the colors.

I think it's ok although it could be better.
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Naturalsister
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Username: Naturalsister

Post Number: 702
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.255.167.138
Posted on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 6:02 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks, Ham_steve,

I thought so, sort of, then I put the other church in the background. The one being fingered by the BCBS' new garage. Thought it may have been the view from 375 and Macomb n- except I new the church was too far to the right for that view.

Thanks.

later - naturalsister
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 3819
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 24.11.154.56
Posted on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 12:45 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That rendering is weeks old, but it's still miles ahead of the things being put up at MGM and MotorCity. Those are pretty terrible designs in comparison.

Designs aside (as they have been discussed to death), the actual article (http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20060602/B IZ/606020399) is very hard on Greektown. The whole gist seems to be that since Greektown has to be creative with a smaller footprint that it is somehow inferior to the other casinos. It keeps drilling the point that it is the smallest of the casinos with the least money. IMO, that's what makes it much better than either MGM or MotorCity. It's the intimacy and how it actually fits into its district that makes it the more attractive of the three. Bigger is not always better, and particularly in terms of casinos. The article acts as if this should be some lavish, Las Vegas mega-resort which is exactly what I think the Detroit casinos shouldn't be aiming for. They should strive to be part of the entertainment scene, not the entertainment scene. I really think Greektown is doing a great job, considering that it is, after all, a casino (not exactly attractive developments, ever).
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Royce
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Username: Royce

Post Number: 1624
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 69.209.174.169
Posted on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 8:34 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Exactly how is Greektown Casino behind schedule as it relates to the article that came out weeks ago, which showed the artist's rendering being discussed? The first thing that needed to be done was to tear down the municipal parking deck on Monroe. Were they supposed to demo this deck any soon than when they originally said they would?

This article appears to just be a rehash of old news. I expected that after reading the initial thread entries and the article that some new news was being presented. Must have been a slow news day over at the Detroit News.
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Toog05
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Username: Toog05

Post Number: 19
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 68.61.197.58
Posted on Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 2:30 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dont know if this was posted or not but Greektown Casino started its construction on Friday...

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/06 0609/def002.html?.v=52
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 3845
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 24.11.154.56
Posted on Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 3:27 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't consider site preparation work technically construction, but this shows they are moving foward.
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Broken_main
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Username: Broken_main

Post Number: 1118
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 69.222.11.226
Posted on Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 12:07 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think the Greektown rendering is excellent for the area. It keeps with the tradition of the neighborhood(with the brick on the lower levels) and it gets energetic with the glass on the upper floors. Itlooks like it bwill have a very intimate feel in the neighborhood it is in.

In addition they are keeping with the commitment that they are going to stay in the same area.

By the way...has anyone seen the final rendering of the Motor City Casino. It just seems like they are keeping it out of the publics view for some reason.
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Royce
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Username: Royce

Post Number: 1628
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 69.220.34.39
Posted on Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 2:59 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This line from the Yahoo article really makes me laugh. "The casino resort is within easy walking distance from Ford Field..., and Comerica Park...." Yet the casino, which is within walking distance of the soon-to-be-constructed hotel, will have a movable skywalk to and from the casino and hotel. I know it's for security reasons, but it's just funny that Greektown casino is worried that people won't do business with them because their hotel won't be connected to the casino, despite the fact that the distance between the two would only be a half a block.

Also, it seems a bit sacrilegious(from a preservation standpoint) to slice into the St. Mary's School with a movable skywalk. Regardless of how Greektown Casino folks spin it, this skywalk will horribly disfigure the school building. Propose to do that to the David Whitney mansion and people would be up in arms.

Tear the school building down or move the school building to say the spot where the apartment building is located at Monroe and I-375, but don't disfigure it with a movable skywalk cutting through it. That's just tacky.

(Message edited by royce on June 10, 2006)
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 3848
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 24.11.154.56
Posted on Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 11:21 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Now, now, Royce. That's just being overly picky. :-) It's not like they are stripping the historic facade and modernizing it. The skybridge between One Woodward and the Guardian doesn't destroy the look of the Guardian.
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Fury13
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Username: Fury13

Post Number: 1103
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.14.122.204
Posted on Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 12:11 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

...it's just funny that Greektown casino is worried that people won't do business with them because their hotel won't be connected to the casino, despite the fact that the distance between the two would only be a half a block."

Again:

Gamblers are basically lazy, and do not like to have to walk too far from the hotel to gamble. They also never, ever want to leave the confines of the casino complex in general, even to eat. They want everything self-contained. They do not give a crap about contributing economically to surrounding restaurants and other businesses in the neighborhood. Casinos are designed they way they are on purpose, to keep all the money inside. And a casino that isn't designed that way will lose money because gamblers will choose to go somewhere else that feels more self-contained and insular.
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Royce
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Username: Royce

Post Number: 1629
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 69.220.34.39
Posted on Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 3:28 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lmichigan, the difference in skywalks is that you literally have to look up to notice the skywalk between the Guardian Building and One Woodward. The one for the Greektown Casino will be very obvious.
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Rbdetsport
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Username: Rbdetsport

Post Number: 112
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 68.61.11.146
Posted on Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 10:44 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think the skywalk will add some character over there.
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Tayshaun22
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Username: Tayshaun22

Post Number: 229
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 69.14.101.116
Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 12:46 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Royce, don't you think the skywalk will be convenient on a cold January night?
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Royce
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Username: Royce

Post Number: 1632
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 69.220.34.39
Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 1:57 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tayshaun22, of course the skywalk will be convenient on a cold January night. What would also be convenient for Greektown Casino visitors would be to have valets carry them the half a block they'd need to travel from the new hotel to the casino. Now that's really convenient. However, how much convenience does one need? Does convenience mean disfiguring a historic building with a damn skywalk just to take people a half a block? Well, not in my book.

Also, remember that this skywalk has to go both ways. That means it's going to be wider than your typical Greektown sidewalk. It will also have to have a cover. Now think about this "convenience" going into the school building into two places at that width and height. It won't be pretty.

(Message edited by royce on June 12, 2006)
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 3855
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 24.11.154.56
Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 2:01 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just can't believe you are complaining about this in particular, and don't buy for a minute that you'd rather it be torn down for nothing than to have take skywalks through it. That's your usual overdramatics. And, I thought I was bad. Considering that Greektown is finding a place to "fit into" the district, rather than demanding to "be" the district, I think they've done a helluva job with their campus. The slight altering of a rather small historic building just seems so incredibly tame in comparison to what they could have done.
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Royce
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Username: Royce

Post Number: 1633
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 69.220.34.39
Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 3:10 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What can I say, Lmichigan, it's the little things that piss me off. I guess the idea that a skywalk and its intrusion into a more than 110 year old building is needed just to get people a HALF A BlOCK is extreme to me. Call me crazy I guess.
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Fury13
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Username: Fury13

Post Number: 1104
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.14.122.204
Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 7:06 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Many gamblers may consider half a block way too far to walk.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 3858
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 24.11.154.56
Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 7:09 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Royce, your crazy. :-)
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Oliverdouglas
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Username: Oliverdouglas

Post Number: 24
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 69.209.164.246
Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 7:13 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In January, half of a block can be miserable. Additionally, I see alot of folks in wheelchairs or lugging oxygen tanks at the casinos.
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Gambling_man
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Username: Gambling_man

Post Number: 758
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 199.178.193.5
Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 7:31 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, Royce, and what MGM and Motor City are building are such New Urbanist Dreams?!? Why are you so down on Greektown Casino anyhow? I think considering your constant badgering of one particular casino, you should at least explain the prejudice.
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Hamtramck_steve
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Username: Hamtramck_steve

Post Number: 3007
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.255.162.207
Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 8:05 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think he's said before it's because the extra traffic adds another 3 seconds to his drive, much like the reason he dislikes Campus Martius.
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Royce
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Username: Royce

Post Number: 1634
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 69.208.124.76
Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 11:59 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gambling_man, I have explained my so called "prejudice" with you guys at Greektown Casino before. The fact is you guys are GREEDY. You got preferential treatment when it came to getting a casino bid. Then you are in the most popular area downtown and get a lot of feeder business, but you still aren't satisfied. Your sales are $335 million a year and you're complaining because the other two casinos make more.

When given the opportunity to match MGM and MotorCity in size, by purchasing the land at Gratiot and I-375, you guys back down, not willing to spend the additional $200 million to do the permanent casino the right way.

Instead you try nickel and dime moves that hinder the Greektown area instead of helping it. You build a valet parking garage at Fort and Beaubien, but don't even attempt to add ground floor retail. You're building a hotel tower that is twice the size of the nearest tallest building in the area( Blue Cross Blue Shield), without any consideration for scale. You plan to extend the current casino over Lafayette Avenue, forcing those waiting for their cars or those walking along that side of the street to take in all of the vehicle fumes from idling cars. Also, the extention will block the views of patrons at nearby restaurants and bars along Lafayette and Beaubien.

Now you Greektown Casino folks want a 3100 space parking deck and an above ground walking-sidewalk that will cut through a historic building just so that patrons don't have to walk a half a block in the cold or rain. Gambling_man, you call it being competitive. I call it being GREEDY.
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Apbest
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Username: Apbest

Post Number: 111
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 68.40.65.66
Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 12:09 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I happen to thing the height will be an addition to the neighborhood, and is a good looking building, and a far better design from the urban perspective and context than the other 2 casinos from a design standpoint
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Andyguard73
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Username: Andyguard73

Post Number: 75
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 64.25.200.14
Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 12:31 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Aside from the debate between Royce and GMan, I was just wondering if they started tearing down the garage yet.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 3860
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 24.11.154.56
Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 3:48 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Toog posted an answers to that on the 10th, Andy.
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E_hemingway
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Username: E_hemingway

Post Number: 744
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.42.176.123
Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 7:42 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Overall, I like the direction Greektown casino is heading. There is definitely room for improvement but it's doing a far better job than the other two casinos. My biggest gripe is they should have put groundfloor retail in that parking garage. That was a pretty dumb move. But I like the hotel and don't have a problem with the elevated crosswalk over Monroe. I say keep up the good work and retrofit that garage for a small retail space.
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Andyguard73
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Username: Andyguard73

Post Number: 76
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 64.25.200.14
Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 8:42 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Lmich. I've been following the thread but somehow skipped that one. It's good to hear its progressing.
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Focusonthed
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Username: Focusonthed

Post Number: 253
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 209.220.229.254
Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 1:33 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think it's hilarious that anyone would argue that a business should be satisfied with last place. LOL.

And geez, there is a difference between revenue and income, Royce! I suppose, to you, GM should be satisfied because they have $192 billion in revenue, huh? That sounds like enough. Until you see the $10 billion net loss.

(Message edited by focusonthed on June 13, 2006)
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Royce
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Username: Royce

Post Number: 1636
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 69.208.124.76
Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 6:45 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, Focusonthed, why is it that Greektown Casino keeps telling the media that their revenues are around $335 million a year? Why don't they tell us what their net profit is if they want people to feel sorry for them being in third place. I'm going with the numbers that are constantly put out there by them and the media.

I agree that no business should strive to be in third place. However, there are times when you settle for a piece of the pie, realizing that you're not going to get most of it. MGM Grand Casino has a very large slice of the gambling casino pie, and in 100 years Greektown Casino couldn't surpass them. Therefore, you settle for what you can get and try to maintain it.

Messing up the Greektown area in order to be more like MGM Grand is a foolhearted endeavor on the part of Greektown Casino. Again, they will never catch up or surpass MGM regarding gross revenues, so why hurt the Greektown area trying to do so?
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Rbdetsport
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Username: Rbdetsport

Post Number: 114
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 68.61.11.146
Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 6:49 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

With the hotel in such a great spot, they may get closer.
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Huggybear
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Username: Huggybear

Post Number: 231
Registered: 08-2005
Posted From: 70.236.160.161
Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 7:51 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Who hired the impotent demo contractors for the Greektown garage?

Over the weekend, I noticed what looked like a ritual "circumcision" - a stairwell knocked out. At least it struck me as so small it must have been intended to be symbolic.

But an entire day of pounding has made hardly a dent on the reinforced cement decks. Man, that sucker was made to last.
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Huggybear
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Username: Huggybear

Post Number: 234
Registered: 08-2005
Posted From: 70.236.160.161
Posted on Wednesday, June 14, 2006 - 8:44 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Looked again today - three full days later, not much progress. And how did they decide to put so much rebar in that structure?
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Erikd
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Username: Erikd

Post Number: 643
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.242.214.106
Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 12:45 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Parking garages require much more effort to demolish than most other structures. The Opera House Garage demo was the same way.

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