  Detroitman Member Username: Detroitman Post Number: 1026 Registered: 06-2004 |
Commuter route gets support Amtrak, Norfolk Southern willing to discuss service from Detroit to Ann Arbor for transit authority's market test. Andy Henion / The Detroit News http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20061218/M ETRO/612180334/1003 | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2004 Registered: 10-2003 |
I wonder if Chicago's Metra still has rail cars available for $1 each.... | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 666 Registered: 09-2005 |
bump (to let the other thread die) | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 572 Registered: 04-2006 |
$1 rail cars?? I've been on their rolling stock, as my sis lives in a rail suburb. I can just imagine the crap they want to sell for a buck! That stuff is not ADA compliant, and has problems with doors flying open in the passenger cars as it is so the out of service stuff has to be really bad. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2005 Registered: 10-2003 |
Well, Virginia Railway Express, among others, seemed to think they were okay to put into service. But I guess you know better.... | ||
Apbest Member Username: Apbest Post Number: 347 Registered: 03-2006 |
ridership will be much lower without transport from station in new center to downtown | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 705 Registered: 02-2006 |
I ride Metra daily. The cars are in great shape. Not sure where (or when) you were riding. They are definitely ADA compliant, as I've personally been delayed by a obese woman in a scooter...though not on the upper level obviously. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1939 Registered: 10-2004 |
"ridership will be much lower without transport from station in new center to downtown" ??? Buses come by there every few minutes--both directions. Were you expecting free cabs to transfer to or something? | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 573 Registered: 04-2006 |
I typically ride the Harvard line. I've yet to ride one that is not a rattle trap. Maybe they can be reconditioned, but if these were such a good deal, why would METRA not recondition them themselves instead of buying new rolling stock? Certainly Chicago is seeing the same increase in transit demand that the rest of the country is, not a decrease. Transit in Chicago is showing a huge deficit right now, its ot like they have the extra money to buy new equipment they don't need. I would liken purchasing this as purchasing a $1 used car. You're buying headaches that the old owner don't want anymore. BTW if they were ADA equipped correctly you would not have been delayed by scooter! | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 144 Registered: 10-2006 |
Livernoisyard, the more different systems that you have to use in public transit, the longer it takes: e.g. bus to train to bus. Ideally at some point in the future there could be a connection to downtown. This current plan is just to prove to the feds. that there will be enough riders to make the future billion dollar project viable. So I was wondering with this Amtrak plan, if people would be able to use the Ann Arbor to Detroit Line if they are arriving at metro airport? Possibly a rhetorical question, but I would think that between DTW and Detroit there would be scores more riders than between Ann Arbor and Detroit. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1942 Registered: 10-2004 |
Because the cost estimates aren't in, I doubt that Detroit will get much for only a $1 billion. One estimate in the paper for light-rail suggested it might run $8 billion which would cost at least $3.2 billion, if the Feds would kick in something like 60% of the capital costs. In addition, proponents of boondoggles usually try to low-ball a project. Then 100% or more cost overruns can easily occur. The original money runs out, and then they say that in order to get it completed, then you must PAY and PAY. Happens much of the time. Besides, the city's bonded debt is just a bit over $2 billion and rising. The taxpayers and whoever lives in Detroit for the next generation will have to pay off the city's debts at some time and not incur more debt that Detroit cannot easily pay at the present. After more taxpayers leave, the taxes will become even more intolerable. So consider that whenever any serious rapid-transit planning happens. There's just no money! | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2006 Registered: 10-2003 |
What does one get for that money, i.e. how many miles? How does it correlate to the current study? Or are you just trying to make things up to scare people again? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1943 Registered: 10-2004 |
Come on, Danny! Nobody's scared. The main reason why rapid transit is such a yawner over here is that any serious plan which costs bucks is known to be DOA. All you proponents do is talk up a dead-horse of a project, and NEVER do you guys mention how the city or the state can afford it. That means: Where's the money? Without that necessity of securing funding, I repeat, it's DOA. BTW, it's not necessary for me or others who don't want more taxes to do your job. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 11025 Registered: 10-2003 |
FYI, you can get free cab vouchers at most of the local hospitals, it simply takes a bit of effort to weezle them out of one. As long as you are persistent and don't give up, you'll get your free ride. Just tell them that you know Platy. | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 292 Registered: 04-2006 |
quote In addition, proponents of boondoggles usually try to low-ball a project. Then 100% or more cost overruns can easily occur. The original money runs out, and then they say that in order to get it completed, then you must PAY and PAY. Happens much of the time. end of quote This is exactly why SMART left Livonia. It's good that I'm not the only one who knows the TRUth. If we could just keep what we have and promote mass transit, I'm sure light rail will work very well. I'm sure many would be very happy to ride a bus to the rail line and transfer on to it. Most people like maybe 99 percent will just hop on the freeway and in minutes will be in AA or Detroit or the airport without connecting bus service. We need good clean safe public bus service to connect to the rail, first. Or, the NO build option is the best solution. | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 1477 Registered: 11-2003 |
This is the logical next step after coming up with the 5 original estimates for the too-expensive/overkill AA-Detroit service. (Those estimates were for service something like every 20-25 minutes, with special connectors to the airport and downtown, etc.) I'm a little concerned that they may go too far in the other direction with this, though, and make it too bare-bones. At the public hearing they were talking about possibly starting with 4 or 6 trips per day at a minimum. If it's that few, that will effectively remove its usefulness as a link to metro airport from either city, which was a big part of the original line. I'm just not sure there are that many AA-Detroit commuters to make it stand alone as only a commuter rail line, and then the ridership numbers would be too low to make any progress. Ideally, if they could come up with something in between the two extremes, say trips once per hour or so, and a shuttle bus to the airport, that might be a good starter. I guess that depends on how they can squeeze into Norfolk Southern's schedule. TRU makes a similar point in some commentary on its website: http://www.detroittransit.org/ cms.php?pageid=23 | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1945 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hourly service would definitely require multiple trains and would need parallel trackage. Amtrak, at present, is a one-track pony-show in the Conrail SAA. I doubt if the freight operators there (the four major railroads--NS, CSX, CN, and the CP--would want their business adversely affected. After all, they're trying to make a buck, too. I've talked to the crew parked at Ferrous a few times when they had to wait for over 30 minutes or so for the Amtrak coming from Pontiac to clear their track so that they could move a mile to their next destination. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on December 18, 2006) | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 667 Registered: 09-2005 |
What is Detroit's New Center Amtrak station like? When was it built? 1980s? 1990s? | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 150 Registered: 10-2006 |
Livernoisyard said, "The main reason why rapid transit is such a yawner over here is that any serious plan which costs bucks is known to be DOA. All you proponents do is talk up a dead-horse of a project, and NEVER do you guys mention how the city or the state can afford it. That means: Where's the money? " What he/she forgets is that even the large ROAD projects require funds from city or the state. If we can afford to keep improving/widening them, why can't we improve public transit? | ||
Milwaukee Member Username: Milwaukee Post Number: 396 Registered: 08-2006 |
This sounds cool. So there's a station at New Center and not downtown or the other way around? If there isn't one downtown, then just spend 500 mil on restoring the MCS into a great commuter center and offices/condominiums. By the way, the MCS was just wishful thinking. | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 151 Registered: 10-2006 |
MCS is too far from downtown, that's why it didn't work in the first place. You can't walk from MCS to anywhere downtown. | ||
Milwaukee Member Username: Milwaukee Post Number: 398 Registered: 08-2006 |
Really? I thought MCS was only a couple maybe 4 blocks away from downtown? If not that, then make MCS corktown station, and build one down by the ren cen or grand circus park. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3265 Registered: 08-2004 |
MSC is approximately 2 1/2 miles west of downtown. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 708 Registered: 02-2006 |
Build a new station downtown, where to put the rails? They tore up the rails that used to to go the Ren Cen. There are no rails downtown proper. They're sure not going to build a tunnel. The current station is going to have to do. For better or worse, Chicago was built on the rails. Detroit was built on the roads. That history is evident when you look at the feasibility of downtown rail stations in each city (should neither station already exist in Chicago, obviously). (Message edited by focusonthed on December 19, 2006) | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1955 Registered: 10-2004 |
"MSC is approximately 2 1/2 miles west of downtown." What's the MSC anyways? The MC depot is near 15th street and Vernor (just south of Michigan), but some say it's really 17th street. It's set back quite a bit. The street to the immediate west of it is called Newark, although its older name was Alexander or something. | ||
Jasoncw Member Username: Jasoncw Post Number: 309 Registered: 07-2005 |
MCS was built there because they figured that downtown would expand there in the future, and because of other mass transportation, it was still practical for it to be so far away. I don't think the new location will be bad, since it's still close to New Center, Tech Town, and Wayne State. MCS isn't really close to anything, and it's even farther from everything mentally. Some kind of light rail down Woodward would make it better, but there's still busses there. | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 1478 Registered: 11-2003 |
Mmm, it's closer to 1.7 miles west of the center of the CBD, and less than a mile west of the edge of the CBD (the Lodge). But yeah, it's definitely not "downtown". I usually think of Grand Blvd being about 2 1/2 miles outside downtown, so that didn't sound quite right for the MCS. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1961 Registered: 10-2004 |
Anybody who believes that 15th Street is 2 1/2 miles from Downtown just came from a pot circle. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 806 Registered: 11-2003 |
Jasoncw-- The location of the new Detroit River RR tunnel and its approaches dictated the MCS location. There was hope that downtown would expand, but that wasn't why the station was built away from downtown. Upinottawa-- Amtrak's New Center station opened in early 1994. Before that (since Jan. 88), it was in a tiny temporary building on Rose St. just to the west of the MCS. | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 4338 Registered: 10-2003 |
OK, 1 1/2 miles. http://maps.yahoo.com/index.ph p#mvt=m&q2=15th%20street&q1=De troit,MI,%20us&trf=0&lon=-83.0 84021&lat=42.329553&mag=5 | ||
Milwaukee Member Username: Milwaukee Post Number: 418 Registered: 08-2006 |
That's a good walk, but when that area becomes completely revitalized, the MCS should be renovated. If Michigan Ave was filled with shops and condominiums, the walk really wouldn't seem to long. Or if a light rail went down Michigan to Dearborn, people could just hop on at the end of the big lawn in front of MCS. | ||
Just_for_the_halibut Member Username: Just_for_the_halibut Post Number: 11 Registered: 06-2006 |
There is a service that runs from Milwaukee to Chicago and back (The Hiawatha???) that commuters use a lot, and it is all amtrak cars...they even had wireless access on it in one car. I really wish they would improve the rail transit situation around here. Airline prices are absurd, and rail fares seem pretty decent. I live in the 7th largest state (population wise) and we have one or two trains come through here but like in the dead of night. Totally under served around here, especially bad since the midwest has so many major cities within a few hundred miles of one another. I would love to be able to take public transit home (such as rail) for the holidays. I can't afford to fly home, so Im forced to drive. When I lived in Chicago it was so nice to park my car at the station and ride the Wolverine home to see my family. I can't do that now, unless I drive almost halfway home to get to a station. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 580 Registered: 04-2006 |
Actually it ia best to walk down Lafayette to get to downtown from the train station. It is much more direct. To walk Michigan it is side, angle side. Lafayette cuts the hypotenunse. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1965 Registered: 10-2004 |
This old saw goes back, supposedly, to the horse-and-buggy days and was extended to taxis and other modes of transportation: "Money talks and bull shit walks." (Message edited by LivernoisYard on December 19, 2006) | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 297 Registered: 04-2006 |
We already have the greatest mass transit system in the World. It's called the free enterprise system. The answer for this project is to let the transportation professionals do the job such as Conrail for example. It was Conrail and other companies such as Ford that kept SMART from going bankrupt in 1995. It's best to get the government out of the transportation industry as much as possible and let the free market prevail. Regional transit taxes have failed to work since 1995 when they first come to southeast Michigan. The break up of SMART and the lack of cooperation between city and suburban leaders is physical evidence of this. There is no evidence that raising county and local taxes will ever work to benefit the public as a whole. We need to restore state funding from the fuel tax and fire SMART officials if they do not come back to Livonia and bring our city back into the W.C.T.A. and cap their tax and only raise it by voting on the increase and not the whole amount. | ||
Jasoncw Member Username: Jasoncw Post Number: 311 Registered: 07-2005 |
gee, that sounds familiar. I think I've heard that... about 297 times, lol.  | ||
Busterwmu Member Username: Busterwmu Post Number: 328 Registered: 09-2004 |
We could feasibly put a downtown station at or near Joe Louis. The trench from MCS to the riverfront is still intact for the Freight tracks of the MC line which used to serve the freight stations on the Riverfront. Since we all know JLA is going to come down anyways... why not put a train station there instead? | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 598 Registered: 04-2006 |
Buster, the JLA garage was built to accomodate a train station along its northern side. Check it out some day. One of the major things done to build JLA and WC3 was to remove those tracks. The ROW still exists though. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1274 Registered: 11-2003 |
Progress http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20061222/U PDATE/612220449 | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 602 Registered: 04-2006 |
go SEMCOG ! | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 298 Registered: 04-2006 |
Go Go Go SEMCOG I'm sure we can all dig just a little deeper into our pockets and pay yet another (fourth since 1995)mass transit tax increase for this project. Why bother to get industry to pay for this? When you can just keep shutting down public bus service all over to force people to drive? And now you want rail service? The answer is NO from me and anyone else who believes in God and has good moral values. Unless you restore basic public handicapped accessible bus service first. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 813 Registered: 11-2003 |
Detroitplanner wrote, "One of the major things done to build JLA and WC3 was to remove those tracks. The ROW still exists." To clarify, three separate but adjacent rights of way ended at Third Street. North to south: Fort Street Union Depot Company's elevated line, the Wabash Detroit Spur, and the MC line. The east ends of them were all abandoned circa 1972. What finally killed any chance of Amtrak using the Joe Louis Arena was that the clearance of the People Mover structure wasn't sufficient. This is what an Amtrak agent who once worked in Detroit told me. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 616 Registered: 04-2006 |
Huh? The train station in the JLA Parking garage is nowhere near crossing under the People Mover. To get to the track, one must cross over the Lodge using the 'Habitrail'. This site incidentally was a playground for me as a pre-teen. My father worked on the pedestrian links between the arena and the parking. I can remember him pointing this out. While in college I found the people mover plan which identified this site as a train depot location. Page 14 of one of SEMCOG's alternatives in the recent Detroit to An Arbor transit projects mentions this station. http://www.annarbordetroitrapi dtransitstudy.com/news/pdfs/ap pendix_b.pdf Please get down there and look at the area of the garage on the WC3 side of the building. You will see how you can follow the line up and out of the area. | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 12 Registered: 12-2006 |
Trainman, at least on the SMART buses, there IS handicapped service. At least look at both services instead of just one. And when you say that if you have good moral values, you wont take rail transportation. Ok then, join the thousands of other idiots who use their cars whenever possible. And who says that people who believe in God can't differ from your point of view. Its not like everyone who disagrees with you is wrong. | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 3444 Registered: 10-2003 |
Ummmmm DDOT busses ARE handicap accessible... I see it in a daily basis... | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 617 Registered: 04-2006 |
No kidding, and both DDOT and SMART offer paratransit services that can be arranged to pick up handicapped persons at their door and drop them off where they need to go. | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 13 Registered: 12-2006 |
I only take SMART so I wouldn't have known about DDOT. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 814 Registered: 11-2003 |
Any tracks built to the JLA parking garage from the tunnel cut would still have to overcome the clearance problems of the bridge and/or fill of the Riverfront apartments access road. | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 301 Registered: 04-2006 |
Scs100 You don't seem to see my point at all. Our state is shutting down handicapped buses and using the exact same money for expanding freeways and rail service. It is not wrong to vote in higher taxes as long as we pay for the handicapped and protect all essential transportation needs first and treat everyone fair which was not the case with the Livonia opt out, but you can disagree if you want to. It makes no difference how we pay or how much we pay as long as everyone gets served the same. This is the law and this is exactly why the federal government will not give grants to projects that have no support to pay for the costs to operate. The federal government does not support the build it first and they will come anymore which is why many people want to pass taxes to pay for the operating costs of SMART. This is why Livonia residents should not decide on their own behalf and why people want regional government. Public bus service should be decided on the state level or at least on the county level according to almost everyone including most members of the Transportation Riders United to the best of my opinion. I'm totally agreeable to this but I want the taxpayers to get a very good mass transit system that can bring jobs to the Detroit area and can get more industry support at the fare box. You seem to think that I'm an anti-tax person according to your post but the truth is that I want the SMART buses to come back to Livonia. So tell me? How can I get SMART or any public bus service to come back to Livonia? You don't see the truth that the state just won't pay. The state has the money and in my opinion should pay the cost of revenue sharing to serve the public equally. But do you not see this? Or, do you? You tell me? | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 619 Registered: 04-2006 |
"Our state is shutting down handicapped buses and using the exact same money for expanding freeways and rail service." Please cite your reference. I disagree. | ||
Andylinn Member Username: Andylinn Post Number: 275 Registered: 04-2006 |
Trainman Quote: "It's best to get the government out of the transportation industry as much as possible and let the free market prevail." :End Quote: Free market? Sorry to be rude, man, but this is ridiculous... The American housing and transit landscape is NOTHING near "free market" - automobile transit is HEAVILY subsidized in tax dollars being FLUSHED down the ever-expanding road and freeway toilet just as suburban and ex-urban infrastructure (water, electric) is subsidized by residents elsewhere... Want free market? Then let's start with toll roads and a gas tax that ACTUALLY pays for the stupid road system... if it was more like $3 or something per mile to drive (instead of $.45? [gas/car price/car repairs) people would be jumping ALL OVER the idea of even an $11 dollar (the current Amtrak price) train ride to Ann Arbor... Trust me on this... Americans and their cars... makes me sick... ---- says the critical mass parade of bikers: "we don't need cars, we don't need gas, to ride around town in a critical mass" | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 624 Registered: 04-2006 |
No kidding Andy, Trainman seems to forget that transit is subsidized by people who drive cars. In a slow economy, revenues from gas taxes go down from people driving less or switching to more fuel efficient cars. There is less money for both maintaining the roads and transit. Its an issue of slicing a smaller pie that reduces the amount available for transit; not that $$$ is being used to subsidize roads (one can argue that the gas tax that funds both roads and transit is a user fee and it SHOULD be used to fix roads). The fact of the matter is many locals do not have enough money to rebuild the roads they have so they subsidize their smaller slices of this pie by dipping into general funds. This is a subsidy, as is the cost of policing and responding to emergencies on the transportation system. Look for the need to widen roads decrease as more people leave the region. Look for revenues to continue to decrease to pay for transportation as hybrid technologies and higher fuel economy cars take over a bigger slice of the fleet. This ain't rocket science, its economics. Fact is transportation revenue needs an entire revamping to figure out what makes sense. With Saturn and Ford having SUVs that get close to 40 mpg, and the poor being forced to drive larger, older, often times less fuel efficient vehicles, what becomes a fair way to tax? Should those who buy hydrogen cars, or fill their tanks with french fry drippings continue to get a free ride while others pay? | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 14 Registered: 12-2006 |
I never said anything about taxes. My point was how you seemed to think every who shares your values agrees with you. And how is the state shutting down handicapped service? Every bus I ride has it. Look at a regular bus the next time you ride it. And the SMART commuter buses advertise on the side about handicapped service. It has the symbol right on it. If the state has the money, then with current conditions it will be gone next week, with the economy being what it is. This is not high on their priority list. (Message edited by SCS100 on December 26, 2006) | ||
Leland_palmer Member Username: Leland_palmer Post Number: 204 Registered: 08-2004 |
Here's the view of the Joe Louis Garage that Detroitplanner mentioned below. "Huh? The train station in the JLA Parking garage is nowhere near crossing under the People Mover. To get to the track, one must cross over the Lodge using the 'Habitrail'. This site incidentally was a playground for me as a pre-teen. My father worked on the pedestrian links between the arena and the parking. I can remember him pointing this out. While in college I found the people mover plan which identified this site as a train depot location. Please get down there and look at the area of the garage on the WC3 side of the building. You will see how you can follow the line up and out of the area."   | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 660 Registered: 04-2006 |
Pretty Cool huh? Ya see how you can link it into the people mover, the CBD (though the habitrail), the Joe, and the Riverfont Towers? |
