  Detroitman Member Username: Detroitman Post Number: 1032 Registered: 06-2004 |
People Mover grows up Proposal would extend route to New Center Andy Henion / The Detroit News http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20061223/M ETRO/612230387/1003 | ||
Chitaku Member Username: Chitaku Post Number: 996 Registered: 03-2006 |
that would be amazing but i'll believe it when i see it | ||
Gsgeorge Member Username: Gsgeorge Post Number: 54 Registered: 08-2006 |
ditto, chitaku. this would certainly be the most logical extension of the route and i'm sure it would increase ridership. the big question is... how much?? | ||
Nellonfury Member Username: Nellonfury Post Number: 204 Registered: 03-2005 |
I wanna see this happen since all of us been talking about it for months (or years now). I'm with Gsgeorge about how much the ride is gonna be.It's 50 cents now but when the extension of the DPM, to me I hope the cost at least around $1.50 (just like on buses).Let hope this happens for the PM celebrates it's 20th birthday. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4972 Registered: 10-2003 |
I think the article says how much. | ||
Tkelly1986 Member Username: Tkelly1986 Post Number: 200 Registered: 01-2004 |
Would anyone have a map of the originally intended people mover map?........I am still holding my breath for a link to the airport...That would be a viable use for the people mover with the spokes being fed through streetlevel rail. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 5328 Registered: 02-2004 |
YAY! Now that Soul Train is going somewhere. Next we need a subway system that runs through Woodward Ave. | ||
Ramcharger Member Username: Ramcharger Post Number: 185 Registered: 05-2006 |
The People Mover was completed as planned. It's the light rail lines (Woodward & Gratiot) that were meant to feed into it that were never built. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1999 Registered: 10-2004 |
The only reason the People Mover was built in the first place was that the Federal money targeted for transit would not be awarded w/o any other transit plan after there was no agreement twenty years ago. A "use it or lose it" choice back then. WJR has been running a transit series lately. It puts transit in Detroit, past and present, in proper perspective. The article seemed more of a puff piece concerning the Twentieth Anniversary for the PM than much else. If it weren't for that timing, there probably would not have been any other such article forthcoming until some such event. Read between the lines. The Det News article made mention of its being a boondoggle, having a boondoggle's main symptom--cost overruns and no real direction or purpose outside of spending money: "Experts say any expansion is a long shot given Michigan's flagging economy and Metro Detroit's history of failed transit plans. The People Mover, which turns 20 next year, was initially intended as a regional system, but area officials couldn't win the needed federal funding. From the start, the elevated three-mile loop was plagued with cost overruns and major service disruptions, including a two-year closure of the popular Renaissance Center station, which reopened in November 2004. (It is closed for the holiday from today through Christmas and will reopen Tuesday morning.)" | ||
Stecks77 Member Username: Stecks77 Post Number: 229 Registered: 08-2006 |
Mass transit systems are not built with the intent of making barrels of money from ridership! Besides the obvious reasons they are built, they are a subsidy for private economic stimulus and growth which will increase the tax base, hence paying for the cost over runs. I'd be willing to bet that almost no mass transit system in the world or possibly only a few operate in the black. The midtown area has had over a billion dollars of investment in recent years and we continue to see planned projects for that area. Almost every major warehouse or building is being converted into residential units. If Techtown takes off like they hope it does you'll probably see more new construction in the coming years. A mass transit system extension to that area would most likely encourage more future investment and maintain the growth that is currently happening. If anyone selling or renting units in that area can tell buyers and renters that they can reach downtown, 2 major hospitals, and numerous cultural venues without using a car, property values would certainly rise. This is an option and style of living that the suburbs don't have and would be a huge draw. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1275 Registered: 11-2003 |
I think they have given this idea a lot of thought, and come up with a feasible way of doing it. Like using the existing trains on the new route. With the growth in Midtown and New Center, this route would increase ridership more because you be going through more area with residents and connecting different areas of entertainment and business. The Detroit News always balks at most plans that spend any money, being the conservative of the two major Detroit papers. The fact that they are not just relying on the feds and businesses involved are talking about contributing makes this plans closer to happening that any other past expansion talks. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2000 Registered: 10-2004 |
Detroit is no closer to acquiring rapid transit today than it was back in 1920 (when it was still wealthy and formally rejected any subway plans) or back in 1986 (when it couldn't agree on much of anything). Hence, the People Mover boondoggle... | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2286 Registered: 02-2005 |
That would be amazing if the DPM got linked to New Center. Being able to travel seamlessly from Ann Arbor to downtown Detroit would be priceless. | ||
Schoolcraft Member Username: Schoolcraft Post Number: 40 Registered: 07-2005 |
http://www.lightrailnow.org/ Please dont People Mover me up and down Cass/Brush.Thats a huge disconnect. Up and down Woodward at STREET LEVEL. And if I have to explain you wont understand. Of course, just my opinion. | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 410 Registered: 07-2004 |
What needs to happen is DDOT at this very moment has to start a limited stop frequent bus service between Downtown Detroit and New Centre, to prime the route. Advertise the hell out of the bus route, make it really comfy and reliable. This will show people that a People Mover Extension will work. Prime that route with a bus at this very moment, and I think it would be a success. The Woodward bus does not cut it. You need a special route that just goes between those activity centres. THE WOODWARD RAPID -LIMITED STOP BUS SERVICE CONNETING CENTRAL DETROIT. BUSES WILL RUN EVERY EVERY 5-10MIN DURING THE DAY, AND EVERY 10-15MIN IN THE EVENING. BUSES WILL ONLY STOP AT THE FOLLOWING STOPS. STOPS WILL BE MARKED WITH EXTRA LARGE BUS SHELTERS, SPECIAL LIGHTING AND LANDSCAPING, AND SECURITY INTERCOMS. RAPID BUS STOPS -REN CEN(Transfer to People Mover) -CAMPUS MARTIUS -GRAND CIRCUS PARK(Transfer to People Mover) -TEMPLE STREET/WOODWARD-MASONIC TEMPLE THEATRE -MACK/WOODWARD -DETROIT MEDICAL CENTRE -DETROIT CULTURAL CENTRE -WAYNE STATE -NEW CENTRE -HENRY FORD HOSPITAL (Message edited by miketoronto on December 23, 2006) | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1276 Registered: 11-2003 |
I think this will happen if the proposed commuter rail test between AA and Detroit happens. | ||
Schoolcraft Member Username: Schoolcraft Post Number: 41 Registered: 07-2005 |
I like...and make it FREE...yes FREE. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 811 Registered: 11-2003 |
If it's "free" with no farebox, then taxpayers would have to shoulder more of the load. | ||
Busterwmu Member Username: Busterwmu Post Number: 329 Registered: 09-2004 |
Schoolcraft - I agree with you. I will not support a plan to run the people mover down Woodward for miles at 30 feet in the air such as around downtown. The cast-cement pillars and solid build do not have any of the grace of the riveted arches of the Chicago L. Ground level please! If the people mover must be built above ground, I'd rather see it somewhere else besides Woodward. | ||
Quinn Member Username: Quinn Post Number: 1079 Registered: 01-2005 |
Like how, when you visit the "light rail now" website, you first see a photo of a hard rail train. WTF. Schoolcraft and busterwmu, I support a people mover-type system up and down any street besides Woodward. Reasons: 1. I don't want to see any train system squeezed into our prime artery, woodward ave. 2. It needs to fit into what we already have...the current people mover. Like it or not, it's there and working. Do you really want people to have to switch systems? ICK. | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2006 |
Like Mackinaw said, it would make it a lot easier to see that Ann Arbor - Detroit route come to life. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1279 Registered: 11-2003 |
Yes, and the other thing that may make this happen is there are already ridership numbers from both the DPM and the DDOT and SMART bus routes that run down Woodward. This is key to getting federal money. Throw in the possibility of major employers in the area throwing in money and you have this at least more than a pie in the sky dream. What are the chances of Illich and the Fords contributing money to have a stadium station? | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2006 |
Good question, however, dont forget that SMART inbound can't pick up and outbound can't drop off people. I see it more likely that Illitch will contribute money than Ford if it runs directly down Woodward for the first leg. | ||
Tkelly1986 Member Username: Tkelly1986 Post Number: 201 Registered: 01-2004 |
I really like the street level rail cars seen on the lighrailnow.org website; I have used them in various places, Amsterdam, Munich, Dallas, Minneapolis, Budapest ect....and they are incredibly efficient: wouldn’t that be a cheaper alternative to a people mover expansion? How about down Woodward, Michigan, Gratiot for starters? | ||
Bussey Member Username: Bussey Post Number: 458 Registered: 12-2003 |
The SMART pickup and dropoff limitation within Detroit are time sensitive. I think it is after 6pm the limitations are retired. | ||
Cwl704 Member Username: Cwl704 Post Number: 35 Registered: 12-2006 |
I had a interesting talk with the folks in the marketing department yesterday..they plan to use my PM model made out of lego on there panthlets(the one with advertising)next year.(this is the one I spoke of in another thread..)I do hope they make it longer esp bring it to midtown.Chris | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1280 Registered: 11-2003 |
I also see Illich contributing. He already did the extremely popular Foxtown Tigers train to help prove people would ride the train downtown to Tigers games. | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 4373 Registered: 10-2003 |
...and weekends. I could not find the the Medical Center shuttle's schedule on Ddot's site. I found it great getting from Downtown to both the DMC and Henry Ford Hospital and back using the shuttle. Personally, I like the tentative plans running along streets parallel to Woodward on both the east and west sides, rather than Woodward alone. If the theory that development follows transit is assumed to true, that development would be spread over a wider corridor than just Woodward itself. | ||
Detroit313 Member Username: Detroit313 Post Number: 271 Registered: 02-2006 |
I Agree, I don't think Woodward should be lined with the pillars of the DPM. But now is as good of time as any to get money from Washington. Michigan has clout again in D.C.313 | ||
Apbest Member Username: Apbest Post Number: 368 Registered: 03-2006 |
the article explicitly referred to their desire to move forward without federal funding. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1281 Registered: 11-2003 |
Yes, they did say that, it could be done in 4 years instead of 10 by doing it through the feds. Then they can hit the feds up for money for improvements and new cars for the DPM, since they will eventually need to be replaced. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3357 Registered: 08-2004 |
Who was complaining about this being old Technology in another thread. Well they were right... it's 20 years old... Happy Birthday PM! When I think of the Chicago EL... grace or elegance is the last thing I think about... I just think how it pollutes the vista with all those rusty girders and rivets and reminds me of the gritty city in the Blues Brothers movie. Nothing says "rust belt city" quite like the Chicago EL. It's reminiscent of the train viaducts up in new center area (the dark ones no one likes to venture under on foot). | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1282 Registered: 11-2003 |
Here is an interesting site with everything you would ever want to know about the El. Somewhere in the history section, they talked about a plan in the late 40 early 50s to put the whole Loop underground as subway because how visually bad the above ground trains look and sound. Money killed that idea. http://www.chicago-l.org/ | ||
Cwl704 Member Username: Cwl704 Post Number: 37 Registered: 12-2006 |
That is a great site..been using it for ideas for a couple of years now(for my version of a EL on my train layouts) | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2002 Registered: 10-2004 |
"Money killed that idea." So, money could cause a Chicago project to be aborted. However, the lack of money in near-bankrupt Detroit shouldn't pose much of a problem, eh? Methinks, a lot of DY posters are pretty loose with the city's (errr...former taxpayers turning refugees, actually) finances. | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 4 Registered: 12-2006 |
On my side of town, SMART doesnt have an end time to site limitations. It just doesnt grab or drop people in Detroit period depending on the way. I dont think it will run on Woodward but where will it branch off to start? | ||
Tetsua Member Username: Tetsua Post Number: 1016 Registered: 01-2004 |
Check out todays comments on the Detnews.com bulletin board. One poster says "Who goes to Detroit anyways". http://info.detnews.com/feedba ck/lettersindex.cfm?forum=dnle tters&topic=people_mover_expan d | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1283 Registered: 11-2003 |
I'm not surprised since it is the Detroit News. I would be interested if the Free Press ran a similar story what the comments would be like. The Freep tends to be a little more pro transit than the DetNews. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2004 Registered: 10-2004 |
So Bob, how will your Freep come up with the money? They're having troubles even with their own revenues. | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 4382 Registered: 10-2003 |
Well, if Santa can bring Bush another hundred billion for his war, maybe he can also find one or twoB to actually assist people. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4974 Registered: 10-2003 |
Ouch! | ||
Hunchentoot Member Username: Hunchentoot Post Number: 31 Registered: 03-2005 |
I want to see a map of the proposed route and how it would alter the current system. | ||
Milwaukee Member Username: Milwaukee Post Number: 502 Registered: 08-2006 |
The people mover should be demolished and a light rail loop should be constructed in its place. The put the light rail up Woodward possibly up to Royal Oak. The people mover keeps people off the sidewalks and kills storefronts. The people mover was a terrible waste of money. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2005 Registered: 10-2004 |
More red herrings. And some people wonder why Detroit isn't taken seriously. The question about where is Detroit going to come up with ITS OWN money, and always the ignorant and stupid responses--Iraq is a typical excuse. Blame Bush! Sheesh! How unoriginal and how far off the mark! Why won't or can't Detroit itself ever pay for the toys it wants. Detroit is a beggar city, just like there are beggar nations. The state of Michigan currently has a two billion dollar shortfall in revenues coupled with another billion dollars of spending it doesn't have the matching revenues for. Therefore, there will be zero help from outside Detroit for its expensive toys this Christmas or next. Still, it's up to the proponents to come up with the sources of revenue. You have to present real, actual sources of funds. Nothing is ever heard of anything along that line--no matter how many times the following question is presented. Where's the money? Detroit MUST come up with at least 40% of the capital costs for any serious project and ALL of the operating costs. Again, how can Detroit tax its resident taxpayers enough to produce the necessary funding? It can't without losing even more than the 20,000 to 25,000 residents (and their taxes) every year since 2000. | ||
Schoolcraft Member Username: Schoolcraft Post Number: 42 Registered: 07-2005 |
Thank you, Milwaukee. And somebody said the people mover works. Source: People Mover website Dec. 23, 2006 PEOPLE MOVER CLOSED Dark Cowgirls & Prairie Queens—City, 10:30a & 2p White Christmas—Fox, 2 & 7:30p / Rat Pack—Gem, 3 & 8p Dec. 24, 2006 DETROIT PEOPLE MOVER CLOSED Lions v. Bears—F. Field, 1p Dec. 25, 2006 MERRY CHRISTMAS! DETROIT PEOPLE MOVER CLOSED | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1284 Registered: 11-2003 |
I think we should just do what Livernoisyard suggests. Lie down, play dead, let our city and state turn into the south. That is where we are heading, right. Really bad roads, no services, and no taxes. People said that the BC would never happen and it is. If you read the history of the El in Chicago, it has had funding issues its whole history. Yet it has prevailed and continually been tweaked and improved. Risks have to be taken. Henry Ford took a risk, so did Bill Gates, Donald Trump. They had failures and successes. But great successes rarely happen if you continually play it conservatively. That being said, Detroit has its problems but needs to take steps to improve life for its residents and attract new ones. It is being successful with that, just look at Midtown and Downtown. Let me remind you this study was started (AND FUNDED PARTLY) by local business, not the city or the DTC. One big criticism of Detroit from the Super Bowl was the lack of mass transit. Well, people are trying to fix this, and trying to make this work with within our means. Including being interested in helping fund this. It's still a long way from being done, but that fact that local business initiated this is a great sign. Livernoisyard, how would you suggest our city and proceed? Would love to hear your suggestions. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2007 Registered: 10-2004 |
Bob, types like you just do not get it. You (being a proponent) must come up with the funding proposals yourself and not expect those who consider those projects to be boondoggles to help out. Otherwise, it's DOA. Ever notice why the powers that run the city are not pushing light or commuter rail? They know better, and they also know that they will have an increasingly more difficult task each year even paying for the things it already has. Private enterprise puts up their own funds. Those 1920s skyscrapers were built with private funds and weren't cobbled together with all those incentives and tax credits among its funding, such as the Book-Cadillac. And what safeguards are built into the BC if and when any overruns occur? Will they also walk away from it as KC did three/four years ago? Who's going to pay for any repairs and such to those condos, and what might happen to those units if the bottom falls out of the real estate market? Buying such a unit seems risky to me, but I'm not a New Urbanist, looking for tax abatements and shifting their tax loads unto the already high burdens of other city taxpayers. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on December 23, 2006) | ||
Apbest Member Username: Apbest Post Number: 369 Registered: 03-2006 |
so what's your alternative? you seem to say that it is bad to search for ways to develop a PM expansion, or that Ferchill's B-C development is a bad thing if not than what's your point? it's a risk he's taken that he seems to think is worth it (Message edited by apbest on December 23, 2006) | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1285 Registered: 11-2003 |
I guess time will tell if it is a failure or a success. But now we have the Fort Shelby happening, and condo towers going up east of the Ren Cen. Someone must be onto something, or they just like to throw their money away. Someone must see a future in Detroit. And now we have private enterprise trying to make a DPM expansion happen, or at least see if it is possible. They are obviously putting some serious thought into trying to make it financially work, since they are using existing DPM trains instead of new ones. The last time they discussed a DPM expansion up to New Center, one of the cost overruns in the construction was right of way acquisition. They have said there is enough city owned property in between downtown to not to have that problem this time. Again, it still needs a lot of money that no one seems to have right now, but we can all hope. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2008 Registered: 10-2004 |
Figuring out an approximate cost is the easy part; figuring out how to pay for it isn't. Address the latter first because with a reasonable funding-source estimate you will then know what you can have AND what you cannot acquire. Why all the silence about this funding? Why be ignorant about this? Besides, no serious plan will ever be put into place without its going before the electorate. At some point in the next few years, a significant percentage of Detroit's welfare recipients will have their own "funding" pulled, and those remaining in Detroit can then vote in their own best interests w/o having those on lifelong welfare sucking off others that aren't collecting. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 604 Registered: 04-2006 |
$100-$150 million??? That would be a 5 mile loop minimum! I'd rather not build another butt ugly sky train. Now if we could have a people mover like they had in "The Island", that would be cool. Besides the City is broke, better to spend that dough on some sort of surface transport. | ||
Apbest Member Username: Apbest Post Number: 370 Registered: 03-2006 |
so you are suggesting that we try to fund a project when we do not know how much it costs? Please, I would like to see you get private investors on a project without being able to tell them how much it costs (which intrinsically means you dont have any sort of pro forma or renderings or anything). That makes very little sense, and I am unaware of any project private or public that procures funding before any sort of design or pro forma stage. | ||
Milwaukee Member Username: Milwaukee Post Number: 504 Registered: 08-2006 |
Detroit is not a beggar city. For the high taxes the city and the state pay, they should get more federal money. The south has low taxes and should get less back. In my humble opinion, Fuck the south. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3358 Registered: 08-2004 |
The PM will not be demolished. To do so would require repaying the feds their 80% of the $200 million plus. And that's only the beginning... Think of what they would have to do to rip it out. Cobo would have to close down to remove the interior PM track, parts of Millender Center would have to be reconstructed, roads would have to be closed until the columns and cross beams were removed, it would screw with Greektown and Greektown Casino traffic, 2 entire city blocks over by state street (where the Maintenance Center is) would have to be razed, Joe Louis traffic would be affected. It would affect traffic on every major street downtown such as: Woodward (two locations), Jefferson (3 locations), Michigan Ave, Fort. For several blocks along Cass, Beaubien, Bagley and Broadway it would mean ripping up major portions of their medains. Also it would affect Grand River (2 locations), Gratiot, and all the little streets. It would make downtown look like a major construction zone, and cost tens of millions of dollars beyond repaying the federal government. If you wanna talk about a waste of taxpayer dollars, then the PM is a blip on the radar compared to the War in Iraq or Boston's Big Dig. And besides it happended 20 years ago!!! | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2010 Registered: 10-2004 |
Detroit is unique in that it is essentially in early bankruptcy. It must get state approval on borrowing more money and is already way behind in its financial reporting to the state. So, I would assume that the city "leaders" already know that there's no money via bonding without state approval. And the state would have to bail out Detroit in case of its defaulting on bond payments--something that would be difficult for the state to do, considering its own funding problems. Only a really stupid home buyer purchases a house without knowing what he can afford. But, hey, do it your way! | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2006 |
Well stated Gistok. And if you compare it with the El in Chicago, it comes nowhere close to reaching the noise level around that system. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 608 Registered: 04-2006 |
LY, God help us if we have to rely on the state's bonding authority to do anything, they are in worse shape than Detroit is! After 12 years of Engler bonds, cutting taxes, and now they are coming due the state defintiely has dug themselves a huge hole that is impossible to get out of without borrowing more! | ||
Apbest Member Username: Apbest Post Number: 371 Registered: 03-2006 |
Livernoisyard, what's your point? it doesnt really seem to be that pertinent to the discussion of a private extension of the people mover | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2012 Registered: 10-2004 |
Reread that article (err puff piece for a slow news day) and come up with something definitive that mentions just where this private funding would come from and how much, etc. Surely not Ford, because Ford is mortgaging virtually everything it owns in order to get around its junque bond ratings. Which private companies in Michigan are flush with cash to the point that they will spend it on Detroit? Get real! | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2006 |
Just to float some names around: Illitch (obviously), Karmanos, Bing, Penske. Can anyone else think of some? | ||
Apbest Member Username: Apbest Post Number: 372 Registered: 03-2006 |
Im not saying that funding exists, nor did the article, as it concludes that they are in early feasibility studies...however, what I was saying is that the discussion was getting sort of off topic I just don't get where this brooding negativity is coming from...we all understand certain issues that plague the city. If it's feasible then it will happen, let's just leave it at that | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1286 Registered: 11-2003 |
The biggest plus in this is that they are trying to find unique ways of trying to make it work. Like a private partnership. They are also making it use current resources, like current DPM vehicles, | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2013 Registered: 10-2004 |
There was an earlier time in journalism when newspapers simply reported news instead of making news or influencing public opinion outside of the op-ed pages. Today, advocacy "journalism" is in vogue and actually taught in the journalism mills in college, and every page in the news can now be considered "op-ed." Do you think that "news" reporters should report wish-washy as being "early feasibity" studies? Don't you think that that might open the flood gates somewhat? | ||
Hysteria Member Username: Hysteria Post Number: 1948 Registered: 02-2006 |
Exactly, LY. | ||
Schoolcraft Member Username: Schoolcraft Post Number: 43 Registered: 07-2005 |
Municipal Gov like Toronto to solve it all. (it funded their subways and more) Orchestrate the greatest urban turnaround in US history...with a story like that...cars sell, etc Everybody loves a winner you know.Role model for all.The suburbs still think Detroits(the actual city of) affairs are local...its so regional, national, global.Its time to finally act suburbs. We all are going down together this time with again highest unemployment rate in nation. Ok a 4 year plan to maybe connect mid-town downtown ...great, but we need Huge jump start now. Municipal government. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2015 Registered: 10-2004 |
Those pesky Canadian socialists: So, if bigger government is better, maybe Buffalo should "annex" Toronto and parts of Ontario near there. Maybe Texas could take parts of Mexico, and if other states wanted some too, maybe they should do so. Hitler pulled off some governmental annexations and "municipal" reorganizations like that during the 1930s and 1940s, although there were a few disgruntleds who resisted and had to be dealt with. You can't please everybody. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on December 24, 2006) | ||
Apbest Member Username: Apbest Post Number: 373 Registered: 03-2006 |
so who are you comparing to Hitler, exactly? Im all ears for this one, really... | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 1223 Registered: 12-2005 |
Uh-oh, Godwin's Law so soon? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2020 Registered: 10-2004 |
I liken the Canadian pipsqueak socialists' plans for forcing Detroit's suburbanites into municipal government to the Austrian Corporal's ideas about his own version of instituting "municipal government" involving involuntary subjects. | ||
Milwaukee Member Username: Milwaukee Post Number: 511 Registered: 08-2006 |
Detroit doesn't have a unity government with its suburbs and it seems to be doing pretty crapy right now. Louisville, Columbus, Indianapolis, all cities that annexed land around them and our growing today. | ||
Matt_the_deuce Member Username: Matt_the_deuce Post Number: 685 Registered: 10-2003 |
50 plus redundant municipalities are so gosh darn efficient. Everybody looking out for their own hide and not giving a hoot about the greater good of the whole region. Yay Detroit Region! | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 9 Registered: 12-2006 |
Given the current situation around here, it would be front page news if the city and the suburbs could work together. | ||
Matt_the_deuce Member Username: Matt_the_deuce Post Number: 686 Registered: 10-2003 |
Mass transportation is an infrastructure investment, just like roads. Do roads all pay for themselves? Hasn't transit investment shown to have spurred a healthy amount of investment around the lines? | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 11 Registered: 12-2006 |
Depends. For roads, I think a toll road would be needed. In Chicago around the Red Line's northern part it seems to have been invested/developed. Every time I take it to visit my sister, it seems like something is being fixed or built around it. (Message edited by SCS100 on December 24, 2006) | ||
Futurecity Member Username: Futurecity Post Number: 416 Registered: 05-2005 |
Roads as sure as hell don't pay for themselves. In the US they are the biggest forced subsidy in the history of mankind. | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 1487 Registered: 11-2003 |
A lot of this thread is a repeat of this one from two months ago, based on a similar article from Crains: https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/mes sages/76017/84749.html Also, that thread went into more detail on street rail vs. DPM. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2008 Registered: 10-2003 |
There's a key distinction to make here. Livernoisyard and other detractors view public transportion as "a toy" and a social service for the poor and disabled. Other people, including the businesses who are offering to pony up for this project, view transit as an economic development tool. Let's be honest, though. The status quo isn't working for Detroit. And feeling sorry for Detroit (that's YOU, Lyard) isn't going to change things either. A means needs to be created to leverage new investment in the city, and good transit has demonstrated this capacity in city after city. While it's true the city doesn't have much, if any, surplus funding, you can't find a way to pay for something if you don't develop a reasonable cost estimate. Writing the project off just because it's difficult is defeatist at best. | ||
Apbest Member Username: Apbest Post Number: 374 Registered: 03-2006 |
agreed | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2023 Registered: 10-2004 |
Rapid transit is but a toy when parallel bus service already exists for most of those lines. Shaving only a few minutes off a run and needlessly bankrupting a city's finances in the process is folly. All the AA-Detroit service needs if rail is not cost effective (or affordable) is a connecting bus system filling in the current void east of Ypsilanti between the AA and SMART systems. | ||
Milwaukee Member Username: Milwaukee Post Number: 520 Registered: 08-2006 |
Can the decline of street level retail be attributed to the people mover taking people off the sidewalks or did that just happen with the decline of the overall economy? | ||
Apbest Member Username: Apbest Post Number: 375 Registered: 03-2006 |
people have to get off somewhere...and when they do, they'll be walking to their destination. I dont think that just because a in-street light rail is physically at grade means that there will be more people "walking around" nessecarily. In such a system they would be similarly indisposed | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3359 Registered: 08-2004 |
The People Mover was not responsible for the decline in downtown retail. That was already well on its way before the People Mover opened. Besides people taking the PM usually want to go from one part of downtown to another, not necessarily to shop. If anything the PM could be a help in the downtown retail market. If you were shopping at RenCen, and wanted to go shopping along Woodward (when enough shops open up along that stretch), then they will be able to do it without having to find another place to park (just hop on the PM and take it to the GCP station). | ||
Apbest Member Username: Apbest Post Number: 376 Registered: 03-2006 |
or cadillac center | ||
Milwaukee Member Username: Milwaukee Post Number: 525 Registered: 08-2006 |
So how likely is this expansion to happen and will it be elevated or be on or below street level? | ||
Apbest Member Username: Apbest Post Number: 377 Registered: 03-2006 |
really its totally up in the air at this point, though most people on the forum will say that it is a long shot. If it happens definitely will be elevated | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 246 Registered: 04-2006 |
All I know is that property owner on the east side of Manhattan are salivating at the news of the new east side line going into construction soon. People want to live there, property values increase, tax revenue increases, governments start to make money again, companies are attracted to the area... ...then all of a sudden a transit system that isn't "profitable" doesn't look so bad. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2006 |
Interesting discussion. A few facts. First of all, Detroit is the only major North American urban center that does not have regional rapid transit. Read that sentence again and focus on these two words: "the only". Whether you think it is a necessity or not, the fact is it is one of many items that make a region more or less competitive with other regions. Everybody else has it; we do not. Imagine you wanted to open a business that would employ people and you were considering some urban area somewhere and then found out it had no fire stations, or perhaps no public schools or public parks. That's how everybody else feels when they discover Detroit is lacking this fundamental, basic public service. Second, Stecks77 postulated earlier that transit system farebox revenues are not sufficient to pay operating and capital costs. He's correct; no place on earth does any local transit system recover more than 86% of costs through the farebox. As a matter of fact, every form of human transportation everywhere is government-subsidized except for private and toll roads. Yet we build them; people need to move around. What certain forms of rapid transit do is spur private development, and the private development reinvested tends to be way out beyond what is spent on the transportation system. So in one sense the right kind of rapid transit is a good investment, but it has to be the right kind, and it has to be transparently connected to the local bus services (which the People Mover is decidedly not). The whole issue of DDOT/SMART/DARTA is kind of a weird red herring. The Toronto area has lots of different transit systems each with its own operator; it is the TTC Subway and the GO Transit commuter rail that ties it all together. The whole thing works pretty well; this was true before municipal amalgamation in Toronto and is still true today. Finally, if Cobo is so important to the region that we might well spend over $900M to upgrade it, then it's certainly reasonable to spend similar amounts to solve a basic service-gap problem. Cheers to all, and I'm glad to see so many are interested in the issue. Scott | ||
Mdoyle Member Username: Mdoyle Post Number: 14 Registered: 10-2006 |
I also dont see why WSU doesnt offer any sort of shuttle down woodward to downtown. Itd be great to be able to do lunch downtown between classes and get back in time without having to pay for parking all over again. Also aside from the med center It'd be nice if WSU expanded into the CBD with a downtown campus building. While it's great that it makes up such a large part of midtown I'd love to have a couple classes downtown. Grand Valley has a similar set up with a downtown campus and an allendale campus. Id kill for light rail down woodward, There seems to be something novel about a rail system that would possibly draw more ridership and bus routes also. There seems to be a negative stigma with bus systems. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2006 |
Mdoyle, Universities should not have to run transit systems; the region should do that. Actually, DDOT runs buses between WSU and downtown with pretty frequent service. Bus passes are inexpensive. Try it some time! Of course you are right about the public's perception of light rail over buses. Nobody is quite certain why this is so but the evidence for it is overwhelming. Of course, a modern light rail system has some amenities that make it a better ride than a typical city bus: traffic signal prioritization, pre-board fare payment, more "station-like" stops and so on. You and many, many others would love to see light rail on Woodward and in other corridors. Transit Riders United, MOSES, the Woodward Avenue Action group, Michigan Suburbs Alliance, Michigan Land Use Institute and many business leaders and most of the public are united in the belief that a decent public transportation system will help rebuild Detroit and the entire metro area. All we need to do is convince our political leaders that regionalism is not a four-letter word and that no successful large urban area can exist solely on automobiles as a means of transportation. People want choices, and everywhere else, they get choices. Cheers, Scott | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 651 Registered: 04-2006 |
actually regionalism is an eleven letter word.... | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 122 Registered: 07-2006 |
after thinking about this for a moment, i realized this was an excellent point, and that i never actually thought of it that way before. it definitely needed repeating. between roads, traffic lights, signs, & traffic enforcement (and more, i'm sure), how much is actually spent by the government on automobiles? when you begin to add up ALL the costs involved, automobiles lose a lot of their luster, and subsidized public transportation seems a lot more reasonable. | ||
Ffdfd Member Username: Ffdfd Post Number: 28 Registered: 09-2006 |
Rochelle Riley includes Atanas Ilitch among her heroes of Detroit's renaissance. http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll /article?AID=2006612290329 ATANAS ILITCH His dad owns the baseball team. His brother runs the family business. But Atanas Ilitch, the youngest member of the renowned pizza-sports-entertainment family, is the one leading the charge to bring mass transit to southeast Michigan. | ||
Tetsua Member Username: Tetsua Post Number: 1030 Registered: 01-2004 |
How would expanding Amtrak routes help mass transit in the region? | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 22 Registered: 12-2006 |
Depends on your definition of expanding. If you mean the commuter routes, it will be easier to get places. If they upgrade the track, which should have happened by now, it will be faster to get places. If they create new routes, like Detroit to Toledo, it would be easier to get people here. And if they extend the routes, it would be more like a national/regional system in one. Don't forget about the Pontiac-Detroit part for the Tigers games over the summer. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 659 Registered: 04-2006 |
By expanding they mean expanding service so there will be trains that run to New Center timed to get there in the pre-work morning or leave there in the after work hours. The trains that run now run a schedule based upon how they change trains in Chicago as opposed to what is best for commutters here. The idea is to contract more localized service with Amtrak. Ohio wants to come to Detroit, but they want connections to the airport, not to the downtown. They don't have an airport anywhere near as nice as ours. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2006 |
Tetsua asks a good question. The answer is that we are not planning to expand Amtrak routes. The current plan, based on conversations with people at SEMCOG, is to implement (quickly) a low-cost commuter rail service in the Ann Arbor to New Center corridor. There are two reasons to do this: first, the basic reason described by Scs100: it will be quicker and easier to get around, particularly if good bus connections are designed in. Second, perhaps more important, the transit study on that corridor was lacking data; in order to justify an investment the planners need to show an increase in ridership over current transit in the corridor. This is usually expressed as a delta-up percentage, and (for instance) a 20% increase over zero is still zero. So a quick-to-implement, reasonable commuter rail service can be used to supply data to the corridor study to justify improvements (such as track improvements, better stations, park and ride lots, etc.) How Amtrak comes into the picture is that one way to quickly implement a single-corridor commuter rail service is to contract with Amtrak's organization to provide the service. This isn't novel; it's done in other regions. My understanding of the current effort, and this may have changed since I was last in the loop, is that it would use existing track and mostly existing Amtrak stations; a few new stations would be provided; trains would run on a schedule to accommodate commuting and there would be something like eight to sixteen trains per day. The system would probably run from Chelsea/Dexter to New Center, and SMART and/or DDOT would provide shuttle service from New Center to downtown Detroit. There is a chance the service could be extended to Royal Oak, Birmingham and Pontiac, but that's not certain by any stretch. Woodward needs its own updated corridor study IMHO but the extension of the proposed AA to Detroit service up Woodward into Oakland County would serve the same two purposes as described, I think. Of course - big picture now - what has always been lacking around here is an overall, regional vision of how to best fit transit into our region so people here have the same choice as they do everywhere else. I have some ideas in that regard but a blog isn't the place for all that. "SpeedLink" doesn't cut it for many reasons. Cheers, Scott | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 75 Registered: 12-2006 |
I still think that the Toledo-Detroit route has potential within a few years. As for stations on the route, my guess would be Chelsea/Dexter, Ann Arbor, Yipsi, Romulus, Dearborn, and Detroit. And if the people mover expands, DDOT and it will be able to handle the flow of traffic downtown. As for success with Amtrak with providing the equipment, look at California. Great job done out there with the capital corridor service. The surfliners are also done well. The route may be upgraded over time. I overheard from a conductor on Amtrak a year ago that NS offered to sell the whole route in Michigan to Amtrak since it only runs 6 freights a day on it. If that happens, then speed will be drastically increased, cutting time. If Ann Arbor works, don't be surprised if Pontiac, Flint, Port Huron, and Saginaw come into the mix. And this would definitely insure that the people mover would expand if it hadn't already. Happy Reading and New Years. | ||
Crash_nyc Member Username: Crash_nyc Post Number: 707 Registered: 08-2004 |
Great idea, but $200 mil? My prediction, for the record, is that when all is said & done, this will have cost over $500 mil. | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 86 Registered: 12-2006 |
That prediction is pretty good considering the fact that some parts might be hard to find. I wouldn't know but that would be my guess. |
