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Archive through June 29, 2007Yvette24843 06-29-07  8:47 am
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 815
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 9:51 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I thought a Cardinal Sin was when your pitcher throws the ball four feet over the first baseman's head in game 4 of the World Series.



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Zephyrprocess
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Username: Zephyrprocess

Post Number: 429
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 10:46 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yvette's got the likely explanation in hypothesis (b), I suspect--ABD because an advisor didn't like his dissertation.
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Gdub
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Post Number: 1120
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Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 1:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A PhD doesn't make you a successful manager, which is most of what the Director's job is. The staff has no shortage of Zoology experts giving input on those matters. Degree or no degree, embellishment or not, a good manager is a good manager and for that reason alone I think he should stay.
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Gdub
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Post Number: 1121
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Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 1:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not to mention the fact that the Zoological Society's Chairman Gail Warden is president and CEO of Henry Ford Health System. Does his background in the health care field make him unsuitable for managing zoological matters? Either way, good management should be the focus.
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Southwestmap
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Username: Southwestmap

Post Number: 857
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 1:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Winky and Wanda relocation was very good form. Kagan took a lot of heat on that from his peers in other zoos. They want to (cruelly) keep their elephants and they did not like it that, by inference, they are not as ethical.

But now Kagan loses face in front of them - and because he was absurdly arrogant.
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Downtownguy
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Username: Downtownguy

Post Number: 32
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Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 2:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The problem with so much focus on educational achievements is that you overlook other qualifications. Besides, he's nearly got his Ph.D. Fifteen years experience in this job should count for something. I don't agree with a lot of his decisions, but he is a competent manager. Let him stay.
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Spartacus
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Username: Spartacus

Post Number: 192
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 2:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Most of you are missing the point. I don't think anyone on this thread, or in the news accounts has stated that Kagen does not have adequate training or background to run the zoo. Those arguing that he has proven he has the ability (Ph.D. or not) to run the zoo are making a straw man argument. The reason he may be fired is that he LIED to his employer in order to obtain his employment. This is indicative of a serious character flaw.

Notre Dame fired its newly hired football coach, George O'Leary, when it was discovered that he didn't have all of the degrees he had claimed. Clearly, he was qualified to coach football and in his case the degree (I believe it was a masters) was irrelevant in the hiring decision. That said, he was fired several weeks into his tenure. At some point it becomes a matter of principle.

I'm surprised so many of you are defending him. I thought he was universally hated on here for closing the Aquarium and the Belle Isle zoo.
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Dexterpointing
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Username: Dexterpointing

Post Number: 407
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 2:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fire that crook.
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Smogboy
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Username: Smogboy

Post Number: 5550
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 2:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I wouldn't say he was universally hated here at all. Most people blame Kwame Kilpatrick and the City for closing down the Aquarium & Belle Isle Zoo. Sure Kagan made some contorversial decisions here but many of them were made for the benefit of the animals- not for his or even OUR selfish satisfaction. He was also at the watch when things like Dinosauria, the Amphibiville, the Arctic Ring of Life, and the Australian Outback Adventure opened.

What I think will happen is the board or whomever will have to decide his fate will also take into consideration the good that he did and balance it against his falsification of paperwork. What will happen I'm not sure. I see a multitude of possibilites... 1) outright dismissal (which is not unheard of in the corporate world), 2) suspension (paid or unpaid) during which he has to make an earnest attempt to finish his phd., or 3) reprimanded severely (fine, loss in pay, etc.). How it'll shake out will happen Monday supposedly.
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Downtownguy
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Post Number: 34
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Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 3:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Spartacus,

My point is that firing seems to be extreme punishment, and does not serve the zoo well either. As has already been pointed out, many people embellish their resumes. A degree is easily quantified--either you have it or you don't. But, by the same token, do you fire someone when they don't exactly describe their other qualifications, duties or accomplishments at previous employers? Yes, what he did was wrong. Was he just as qualified to do the job without having the degree? I think time has proven that to be so. He should be sanctioned, but not fired.
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Smogboy
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Post Number: 5551
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Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 3:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Two scenarios here...

-You fire the guy on principle (which is perfectly legit) but it leaves you without a director and the search is on to find one with the proper pedigree.
-You sanction him. Revoke as many privileges as they want, keep him on, demote him in title only and discretely look for a new director.

Which is better?
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3rdworldcity
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Username: 3rdworldcity

Post Number: 749
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 3:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What he should have done on his resume was state: "PhD (Candidate, Hebrew University)."

Since a PhD was not a prerequisite for the job, they probably would have hired him w/ the expectation he would eventually get his dissertation accepted.

Subsequently, if he told them he had a conflict w/ an advisor or whatever and couldn't afford to keep running back and forth to Isreal, they would have done absolutley nothing.

The whole thing is a tempest in a teapot.

Based on his record, if they fire him they're nuts.
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Spartacus
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Username: Spartacus

Post Number: 193
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Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 3:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm not sure I would fire him if it were my decision. If, in fact, I was convinced that he was doing a marvelous job and that he wasn't easily replaced, I would probably not fire him.

My problem is with the attitude expressed in the initial post-- and others.
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Crash67
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Username: Crash67

Post Number: 16
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 4:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The really difficult thing to weigh here is the future funding of the Zoo ... this whole Kagan resume thing couldn't have happened at a worse time for the Zoo as it attempts to sell the tri-county area on a regional Zoo tax to support their operations and replace $$$ lost in State and City subsidies.

The integrity question is huge when you look at the political dealing necessary just to get such a question on the ballot, let alone get it passed with the electorate -- especially in tax-averse areas like Oakland and Macomb counties.

The Zoo board may have no choice but to terminate Kagan, or else they may give the tax opposition groups too much ammo to blow that Zoo funding initiative out of the water before it even gets placed before the voters.

How embarassing ... and unfortunate for a guy who truly has done a phenomenal job under some difficult circumstances. I just don't understand how he could make himself so vulnerable by misrepresenting such a key fact on his resume. Far less talented people in higher visibility positions have lost their jobs for such transgressions.
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Gdub
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Username: Gdub

Post Number: 1122
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Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 4:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When I first started work there, Ron told me a story of how when he was a candidate for the job he was taken to the Manoogian mansion to meet Coleman Young. When he showed up he was taken to the back yard, where Coleman was dressed in full safari costume. I don't really think Mayor Young cared much for the scrutiny of educational credentials when it came to zoo director.
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Yvette248
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Username: Yvette248

Post Number: 699
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 7:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree with 3rdworld city. Nuff said.

What he should have done on his resume was state: "PhD (Candidate, Hebrew University)."
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 3311
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Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 7:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It doesn't matter a whit (at this late date or even earlier) now what he should have done, but what he actually did.

So what if having a doctorate was required or not? Suppose the next closest rival candidate for the position didn't pad (i.e. lie) about his credentials. And furthermore, what if that person's resume and credentials were the same--save for the doctorate. Suppose that all other things being equal, Kagan got the (highly paid) position because of his claiming to have that fictitious doctorate--the icing on the cake that served as a tie breaker.

He lied in a material area on his resume (application). Just because at least 75% of others' resumes in the US are claimed to be padded in material areas is no excuse. This is obviously unfair (in principle) to the 25% of honest job seekers who don't lie.

Yes, he should resign or be fired. Case closed! BTW, he could reapply...
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Jacaden
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Username: Jacaden

Post Number: 35
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Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 10:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As a bona fide FUD (Ph.D) holder I must put in a correction as to the accepted way for his resume/curriculum vitae to indicate his degree status.

"All But Dissertation" (ABD) or "Admitted to Candidacy" are generally what is expected, at least in academic circles. These titles/statuses allow you to distinguish among those who have not yet completed the requirements for their doctorate. I am assuming he was admitted to candidacy and/or did not write his diss, instead of just enrolling in some classes and never taking qualifying exams.

There is no shame in being ABD. There are more ABDs than Ph.D.s in this world and loads of ABDs that I know are really quite smart/qualified/great folk--and get really good high paying/status jobs. He really must have doubted the strength of his application/skills to do what he did. The fact that his "degree" was not from a U.S. institution may have encouraged him to think that he could get away with it. Which he would have, until the "tipster" alerted folk. Spurned lover? Jaded employee? Somebody decided it was time for the big payback.
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Karenka
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Username: Karenka

Post Number: 12
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Posted on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 1:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jacaden is absolutely right. Before you have the degree in hand but after you've done all the coursework, taken all the qualifying exams, etc., you are officially ABD. I can't imagine any legitimate circumstance under which you'd list yourself as a Ph.D. holder until your dissertation has been approved and all your paperwork has gone through.

Many people are hired at the ABD stage, usually with the understanding that the degree will be granted within a certain time period. And if you've gotten that far, you would not simply give up for the lack of a signature. Nor, in fact, would your committee chair not follow up on your progress. The whole story just doesn't add up.
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3rdworldcity
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Username: 3rdworldcity

Post Number: 759
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Posted on Monday, July 02, 2007 - 11:40 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Isn't the distinction between "Admitted to Candidacy" and "Candidate - PhD" one w/o a difference?
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Danny
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Username: Danny

Post Number: 6142
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Monday, July 02, 2007 - 5:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Breaking news!!!!

The Detroit Zoological Society decided to let Kegan keep his job. Not bad for a guy who do not have a doctorate degree in zoology and lied about it on his resume.

YAY!! Looks like rules can be bent after all.
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Yvette248
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Username: Yvette248

Post Number: 700
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Posted on Monday, July 02, 2007 - 7:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Smart move!

The Board's decision stipulates that Kagan be sanctioned with a formal written reprimand, which will become a part of his employment record. In addition he will be asked to work for 30 days without pay and required to make a public apology, which is to be posted on the Zoo's website at www.detroitzoo.org.

"While we're disappointed that Ron misrepresented his doctoral status, we're conscious of the fact that a Ph.D. is not a requirement of his position nor has the lack of formalization of that degree affected his ability to perform his job," said Detroit Zoological Society Chairman Gail Warden.
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Quinn
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Username: Quinn

Post Number: 1395
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Posted on Monday, July 02, 2007 - 10:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eh I say he should have been fired or quickly replaced. No room in that position for lying. If he's lying there, what else is he lying about? Maybe he lied about actually trying to market the Belle Isle Aquarium. Now we know that he's a liar, everything is up for grabs.
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Bumble
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Username: Bumble

Post Number: 245
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Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2007 - 9:57 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Quinn
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Username: Quinn

Post Number: 1395
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, July 02, 2007 - 10:28 pm:

------------------------------ ------------------------------ --------------------
Eh I say he should have been fired or quickly replaced. No room in that position for lying. If he's lying there, what else is he lying about? Maybe he lied about actually trying to market the Belle Isle Aquarium. Now we know that he's a liar, everything is up for grabs.



I agree wholeheartedly, Quinn.

quote:

In an attempt to squelch lingering questions about a city-leased red Lincoln Navigator, Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick and Police Chief Ella Bully-Cummings on Saturday admitted the $57,000 vehicle was originally obtained to chauffeur the mayor's family.

Deputy Mayor Anthony Adams and police spokesman James Tate repeatedly said the vehicle was for undercover operations and never intended for the mayor's wife.



http://www.detnews.com/2005/me tro/0501/24/B01-67279.htm
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Danny
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Username: Danny

Post Number: 6145
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Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2007 - 12:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Forgiveness covers up the LIES. The D.Z.S. accept his forgiveness. So let him go on with his fake career. He's a doing great job running the zoo.
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3rdworldcity
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Username: 3rdworldcity

Post Number: 762
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Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2007 - 12:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I learned this in kindergarten: "Rules are meant to be broken."

The Zoo's Board are to be commended for having at least a modicum of common sense.

The $16,000 penalty was way too heavy. Where's G. Bush when we need him? They should just have made him feed the tigers for a week.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 4732
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Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2007 - 4:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And there's a big difference between Ron Kagan and Steve Duschene. Duschene was the big roadblock behind the Freedom Hill Concert Facility. Firing him headed off a very nasty and probably costly lawsuit (for the people of Sterling Heights).

Just ask the folks in Novi about the taxpayers paying for costly lawsuits.

If Ron Kagan is doing an otherwise excellent job, I think that the reprimand and monetary penalty is sufficient.
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3rdworldcity
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Username: 3rdworldcity

Post Number: 763
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Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2007 - 4:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gistok: We agree on Kagan. However, I believe Sterling Heights paid Joe Vacari and his partners almost $35,000,000 when it lost the Freedom Hill lawsuit.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 4734
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Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2007 - 9:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the correction 3WC... now we know why they were not in any mood to keep Duschene around!
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Chuckjav
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Username: Chuckjav

Post Number: 16
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Friday, September 14, 2007 - 10:35 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am new to the site and I am catching up on past posts.

I see that Ron Kagan earns $199,200 annually to run a mother-trucking Zoo.

Well hot-damn....I would do the job for $75,000 - and I don't have any lies on my resume.

'Ya Know!
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 1622
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, September 14, 2007 - 11:41 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^Probably no qualifications on there either...
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Southwestmap
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Username: Southwestmap

Post Number: 906
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, September 14, 2007 - 11:53 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chuckjav is way out of line here to bump this up and make such an adolescent comment. In the scheme of things, and in light of his credentials and tremendous leadership and principled advocacy for animals (never forget that he took a lot of flak from many peers across the nation for freeing Wanda and Winkey and giving them a better quality of life in their sunset years, Kagan deserves way better than this.

Isn't there something on the Board more deserving of belated adolescent sarcasm? Isn't there something else Chuckjav can use to get attention focused on him?
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Chuckjav
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Username: Chuckjav

Post Number: 17
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Friday, September 14, 2007 - 12:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

SWmap....I suggest you become accustomed to my sarcasm - while you're at it....read the US Constitution (specifically The Bill of Rights).

Enjoy