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Archive through July 24, 2007Lefty230 07-24-07  8:09 am
Archive through July 24, 2007Jt130 07-24-07  1:24 pm
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Urbanize
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Username: Urbanize

Post Number: 1804
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 8:54 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How about We go for a Supermarket that's trying to Expand rather than Avoid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P iggly_Wiggly
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P ublix
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F ood_Lion

I was going to say Food World and Winn-Dixie, but they've both been going out of business.
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Urbanize
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Username: Urbanize

Post Number: 1805
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 9:01 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I was wondering why Krogers put a supermarket on Royal Oak Township on 8 Mile and Wyoming Rd. in at some black ghetto instead a Detroit black ghetto? Maybe because Kroger is trying not to be racist after all."

I disagree, that was like Kroger choosing to open a store a decently wealthy (and safe) Eastside neighborhood but placing it in Close proximity to Warren, Eastpointe, and Harper Woods to serve the Ghetto White People.

The only reason they likely left the location was not because of profit, but because of how the store was maintained, same with Walgreens. Corporations don't necessarily have to close and demolish a store because they don't like it, they can just remove their name and sell it to an independnt owner. However, Walgreens probably couldn't find an independent or chain pharmacy owner to sell it to so they just closed it.
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Thejesus
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Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 1679
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 9:06 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I agree Paul...becuase they dont want to say that the crime is really their way of saying that it got too 'dark' for their comfort..."

yeah, because we all know the "dark" people in Detroit you refer too don't actually commit crimes at record setting levels...that myth was just created by the white people who fled the city...
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Cambrian
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Username: Cambrian

Post Number: 1358
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 9:28 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hp, what year is your Grem? When the pizza place closed, the Grem left. There's an employee at the Sears Oakland Mall who drives a rusty one. Like a '72. I drove my '69 Ambassador faithfully, every day until she spun a rod bearing in January 06. There's a few AMCs in Hazel Park. Some one south of 9 has a nice '72 AMX. And some one that lives on Hughes has an '83 Concord.
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Urbanize
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Username: Urbanize

Post Number: 1808
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 9:31 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Talk about Hi-Jacking Cambrian.
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Cambrian
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Username: Cambrian

Post Number: 1359
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 9:45 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah Urbanize, sadly this is I think our 4th thread on this topic and it is going down the same predictable path. Everyone agrees that companies have a right to shit on who they want in the name of profit, and that Detroit is a crime ridden slum while the burbs are a fat lamb of profit where no crime exists. Nauseating.
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Urbanize
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Username: Urbanize

Post Number: 1809
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 9:56 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tell ya what, how about we just let it fall down the list and don't mess with the thread if you don't want to discuss it.

Sheesh, I swear, there's been over 100 threads about cars and now you're trying to turn this one into a thread about cars. This is Discuss Detroit, not Discuss Cars. If you want to discuss cars, either take it to Non-Detroit Issues or another site.
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Cambrian
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Username: Cambrian

Post Number: 1361
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 10:07 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Agreed. HP, drop me a line if you need stuff for your car. schustercj@yahoo.com
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 1226
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 10:20 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

yeah, because we all know the "dark" people in Detroit you refer too don't actually commit crimes at record setting levels...that myth was just created by the white people who fled the city...

Can I call you a racist today?
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Urbanize
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Username: Urbanize

Post Number: 1812
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 10:27 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ok, Iheartthed just pointed out what Cambrian was actually saying, now y'all are playing that petty "If you call me a racist, I'll call you a racist". SHUT IT UP! No one's calling anyone a racist for the heck of it.

Now, there are other reasons why grocers won't locate in the city. Could you liberals discuss some of those without throwing the race card around?
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Thejesus
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Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 1680
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 10:35 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Can I call you a racist today?"

Follow your instincts...you've demonstrated time and time again on this forum that pulling the race card out of your ass is second nature to you...I'll bet you were taught how to do that before you even learned how to walk...

Don't let the fact that I'm arguing that white people fled the city because of crime and NOT because of racism stand in your way...
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Urbanize
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Username: Urbanize

Post Number: 1814
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 10:37 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Don't let the fact that I'm arguing that white people fled the city because of crime and NOT because of racism stand in your way..."

How can you factuate what a group of people left an area for? Were you in their heads during that time?
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 1229
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 10:47 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just so we're on the same page here...

yeah, because we all know the "dark" people in Detroit you refer too don't actually commit crimes at record setting levels...that myth was just created by the white people who fled the city...

So by "dark" you meant "poor"? Or did you mean "short"? Or did you mean "skinny"? Oh, no, you meant black. So to clarify, you were alluding that black people in Detroit commit crimes at record setting levels. But why would you focus on black people instead of poor people, since being poor would be the logical reasoning behind a person committing a petty crime like shoplifting... in my mind at least. Wouldn't you agree? Or is it black that would make a better qualifier in your mind? Because that is what it sounds like you were saying. For arguments sake, I will just leave it at saying that was a racist statement.
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Urbanize
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Username: Urbanize

Post Number: 1815
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 10:50 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I guess you can't have a decent conversation when you have children around always throwing the race card at someone.
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Thejesus
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Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 1681
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 10:56 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ihearthed:

You apparently missed where Detroit_Stylin stated that white people left Detroit because the population got too "dark" for them. I simply replied that it wasn't said peoples' "darkness" that drove white people away, it was the all the crimes they were perpetrating.

Do you care to retract your previous statement sir?
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 1230
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 11:00 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Do you care to retract your previous statement sir?

Nope. What I said still stands.
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Thejesus
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Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 1682
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 11:02 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, I would have been thoroughly impressed if you had admitted your mistake, but I knew better than to hold my breath.
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Citylover
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Username: Citylover

Post Number: 2503
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 12:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The evidence speaks for itself. An objective look by most without any emotional connection to detroit would be that detroit has been devastated. And if you asked people why they left the reason would be simple; safety.

Btw I was in detroit this past week-end.Fri at Clff Bells Sat at the fox_ great time both nites......detroit should market to ann arbor the week of 7/20 or whatever week the art fair is...........get away from all the crap come to detroit.....
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 9645
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 12:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

CL and thejesus:

I agree that people now leave because of crime but making a blanket statement is wrong.

The flight in Detroit started in the early/mid fifities and race had as much, if not more of an impact than crime at that point. The initial flight of people and tax base is a major reason why Detroit is not dealing with crime issues, poverty issues, homeless issues, etc.

To ignore that is completely disingenious. Why did over 700,000 white people leave the city from 1950-1970 (bear in mind that the majority had left as of 67). Considering that the population was increasing until 53 the rate of whites fleeing from 53-70 may be higher.

The fact that you both chose to use reason of flight now to justify peoples racist/xenophobic actions of the past is a poor argument.

Crim is a reason now. It hasn't been all along.
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 1234
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 12:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^Actually, I don't think crime or racism were the primary factors of why the city hasn't been able to sustain population.

I personally think the urban renewal projects (i.e. construction of freeways) and the dismantling (and disregard) of the public transportation system had the biggest impact.
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 1306
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 12:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When discussing the flight of Detroit, don't forget the "Blockbusters".. The real estate agents that would get a commission on every house on an entire block as they convinced the residents that "THEY" were moving into the neighborhood, and NOW is the time to GET OUT. Of course if you wait, "THEY" will already be establishing themselves in the neighborhood, and your house will be worth NOTHING.
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Citylover
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Username: Citylover

Post Number: 2504
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 12:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't strongly disagree with anything you say jt1.And I certainly don't intend for it to be a blanket statement.

Here is a bit of relevant history


http://www.mackinac.org/articl e.aspx?ID=4784
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 3498
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 12:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

To ignore that is completely disingenious. Why did over 700,000 white people leave the city from 1950-1970 (bear in mind that the majority had left as of 67). Considering that the population was increasing until 53 the rate of whites fleeing from 53-70 may be higher.


The usual figure for post-Depression population for Detroit is 1.85 million in 1958--not 1953. This doesn't mesh with those quoted figures. Quite possibly, the others might also be revisionistically inaccurate.
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Thejesus
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Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 1684
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 12:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I personally think the urban renewal projects (i.e. construction of freeways) and the dismantling (and disregard) of the public transportation system had the biggest impact."


There's still a hole in your theory.

You're basically saying that the freeways gave people/businesses the option to leave the city, i.e., if there were no freeways sprawling all over SE Michigan, then relocation wouldn't have been possible...

But you need to take it one step further...just because people have the option of leaving the city doesn't mean they have to exercise it...so a better question is, 'why did people/business CHOOSE to relocate to the suburbs rather than remain in the city?'

Your theory is like saying that people left New Orleans in September 2005 because the freeways made it possible for them to do so, while failing to mention that they were only using the freeways to leave because a big fuckin hurricane destroyed their city.

(Message edited by thejesus on July 25, 2007)
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 9650
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 12:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LY - Census numbers show 700,000 whites less in 1970 than in 1950 ( I will try to find the data). The peak of population may have been in 58 but the white population loss is different than the total population.

Coorelation to total population and white population is not 1:1.

(Message edited by jt1 on July 25, 2007)
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Urbanize
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Username: Urbanize

Post Number: 1816
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 12:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"But you need to take it one step further...just because people have the option of leaving the city doesn't mean they have to exercise it...so a better question is, 'why did people/business CHOOSE to relocate to the suburbs rather than remain in the city?'"

Well the Middle Class Families wanted to start off a fresh life with big homes, yards and less taxes and the businesses of course are like little Puppy Dogs as they're just keeping up with the money, which was at the time going with the Middle Class Families.

That's where the Mass Transit issue comes in. They couldn't stay in the city because they knew the Middle Class Families would not be willing to make the big trip every day all the way into the city to shop unless they had the option of a quick, speedy way to get there in the same convienece of getting to the Mall down the street.
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 1309
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 12:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"That's where the Mass Transit issue comes in. They couldn't stay in the city because they knew the Middle Class Families would not be willing to make the big trip every day all the way into the city to shop unless they had the option of a quick, speedy way to get there in the same convienece of getting to the Mall down the street."

Of course the Big 3 took care of that by making sure all mass transit was bought up and destroyed, so that automobiles would be the only option.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 9651
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 1:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:


The usual figure for post-Depression population for Detroit is 1.85 million in 1958--not 1953. This doesn't mesh with those quoted figures. Quite possibly, the others might also be revisionistically inaccurate.



LY - According to the Cecnsus the population of Detroit in 1950 was 1,849,568 and in 1960 was 1,670,144.

Are you suggesting that the cenus was wrong or that 180,000 people left Detroit between 1958 and 1960?


Data from:

quote:

http://www.census.gov/populati on/www/documentation/twps0027. html

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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 3499
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Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 1:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:


Are you suggesting that the cenus was wrong or that 180,000 people left Detroit between 1958 and 1960?

There was a very severe recession in metro Detroit which peaked around 1958. A much larger than usual out-migration obviously occurred then--either to the burbs or out of the area altogether. More whites left then and fewer blacks took their place because there were few new jobs back then and money was very tight.

Detroit's gravy train for unskilled labor (e.g., UAW) also started derailing back then, and after being put on its track again and again, it continued to derail to the point where it's at today. BTW, foreign automobile models started to appear in ever-increasing numbers starting back then, too.
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Craig
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Username: Craig

Post Number: 201
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Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 1:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I believe that one would have to look for concurrent shifts in suburban population and control for births and deaths to understand what happened to Detroit's white pre-Riot.

Per the lore of my elders and others there was a trek out of the ethnic enclaves and toward affordable and less-congested areas. I can imagine some kind of "black menace" as a factor, but I understand that a desire for space, new construction and an "American" life were the biggest motivators.
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 1235
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 2:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

>Thejesus

What I'm saying is that...

1. The construction of freeways displaced a lot of the population and disfigured neighborhoods. It also drained commerce from business located along the previous commuting corridors who suffered as a result of the traffic being redirected on free flowing freeways.

2. The dismantling of the public transportation infrastructure furthered the effects above AND at the same time made no difference in convenience to living in the city or a neighboring suburb. Either way, you still had to get in your own car, pay for your own gas, drive to where you are going and find your own parking space. Transportation in Detroit is incredibly expensive because there is no other alternative than to use a car.

3. The New Orleans analogy does not apply because Detroit's population loss was a natural progression, and not prompted by a natural disaster (as the census data supports).

Also, we might start to stray away from "why the white people left" question to "why nobody has come to replace them". The fact is that there was a dramatic demographic shift in all big cities over the past 5 decades. Why was the decline in population of Detroit so much worse than in other comparable cities? Our high crime rates weren't an anomaly. If you look at the actual number of murders over the past 30 years (maybe even 50), it is actually a pretty stable number. The rate of murder rose because the population dropped.
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_sj_
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Username: _sj_

Post Number: 1984
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 2:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Don't fool your self, crime and race are intertwined to many. And as time has progressed as Detroit has grown in one race, crime has also increased furthering their original fears/stereotypes.

Now add in this Kroger debacle, Tiger Stadium, etc and you will get a lot of I told you so.