Discuss Detroit » Hall of Fame Threads » 1967 Riot or Rebellion. » Archive through July 22, 2007 « Previous Next »
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Oldredfordette
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Post Number: 2237
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Posted on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 2:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I forgot to cast my vote: rebellion.
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Carolcb
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Post Number: 1248
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Posted on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 2:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would say it was a riot.
My dad drove a truck and was out of state when it started. I remember you could not buy gas.
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Iheartthed
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Posted on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 2:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I wasn't there.
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Terryh
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Post Number: 405
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Posted on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 10:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Riobellion. Makes sense. Initial outburst of pent up emotion turns into a rebellion. Great answer Gravity machine.
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Mayor_sekou
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Posted on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 10:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well the free press and detroit news are both taking the attitude that it more rebellion than riot. Check out these stories and interactives they are pretty good and they have a pic of the blind pic were it started.

http://info.detnews.com/pix/ph otogalleries/newsgallery/07192 007_67riots/index.htm
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20070720/COL 27/707200367&theme=DETROITRIOT 072007
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/99999999/M ETRO/706030362&template=theme& theme=Metro-1967riots
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Terryh
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Post Number: 407
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Posted on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 11:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lots of history and great architecture in that neighborhood Mayor Sekou. The neighborhood was predominantly Jewish at one time. On the corner of Hazelwood and 12TH Street (Rosa Parks) sat Boeskys deli which was the location of Purple Gang associate Harry Millmans assasination. Purple gangster Ziggie Selbin was killed in the doorway of a 12th street blind pig. If you look at pictures of and before the riobellion 12th street was packed with small businesses. I believe im correct in writing that at the time of the riot many businesses were Jewish owned.
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Mauser765
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Post Number: 1710
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Posted on Saturday, July 21, 2007 - 4:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

riot
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Warriorfan
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Post Number: 757
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Posted on Saturday, July 21, 2007 - 6:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

I'm sorry but you can still make the decision to better yourself instead of just saying "I was born into a poor family so that's what I choose to remain."
My dad worked on a loading dock in Detroit, my Mom was a maid. I worked two jobs and paid my way through college. Wealth is a relative term in that it doesn't have to mean "rich people" but can easily mean a comfortable living, not wanting for the basics, a good family life. Even if you're born without that you can SURE work toward it.



Damn straight! A high school education is FREE to every kid in Detroit, and yet only 50% actually take advantage of that FREE opportunity and get a diploma. How fucking hard is it to just show up for the minimum number of days required to graduate? Most of these dropouts will end up in abject poverty, why should we pity them?

I'm sure everyone on this forum has driven though a Detroit neighborhood and seen a new car or an expensive car sitting in the driveway of a rundown shitty home in a bad area. Misplaced priorities are also a problem. You have money to spend on rims and a sound system but you can't put a fresh coat of paint on your house or get a new roof to replace the one that looks like it is ready to collapse?
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Goblue
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Post Number: 174
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Saturday, July 21, 2007 - 11:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Keep in mind that the high school graduation rate in 1950 was right around 50%. The good ol' days with Ozzie and Harriet leading the family never were.
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Detroit_stylin
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Post Number: 4418
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Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 9:50 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It was a rebellion that turned into a riot IMO...
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Eec
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Post Number: 87
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Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 10:10 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Johnlodge said:
_____
Rick, your parents probably raised you well despite their financial situation. Again, not all receive that luxury.
_____

If his parents had raised him THAT well, they'd have instilled a little empathy for those less fortunate.

In any case, this whole "work, you lazy bastards" vs. "it isn't fair!" argument is bullshit, as the truth is in the middle. The rich are usually rich because they were born that way or had other opportunities, and the poor are very unlikely to ever be rich. But they can become less poor by going to school to better themselves and getting a better job, which is an opportunity of which too few take advantage. Some people have a poor family life that makes things harder, and we should sympathize, but at some point they start to have some responsibility for continuing the mistakes their parents made. The situation isn't fair, and we should try to change it, but we've got to deal with it while we do.

And a graduation rate around 50% in the 1950's was reasonable for the time. Nowadays, that's criminal. The education threads we've had here have made it pretty clear that these kids have teachers willing to teach; they just need to show up willing to learn.
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Mauser765
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Post Number: 1712
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Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 11:05 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Local FOX2 has a special tonight at 10:30 about the riot. Not looking like a well produced program though, as Fanchion Stinger is the host. What, was her mother like, 15 when the riot happened ? They could at least use one of their experienced and knowledgeable anchors (like Alan Lee) for something so important, rather than bobble head-teleprompter reading parrot, Fanchion. Ahwell.

I would love to see an actual documentary created which pulls together all available quality footage. Something with no thesis about any of it - just a straight documentary. Just available facts and photos and footage.
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Eric_w
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Post Number: 275
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Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 11:14 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Alan Lee?? He's the most inept moron I've ever seen on TV news.A trained seal would be better than him. Stinger isn't great but is far better than Lee
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Tkelly1986
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Post Number: 379
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Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 11:16 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Riot
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Rickinatlanta
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Username: Rickinatlanta

Post Number: 80
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 11:50 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eec,

"less fortunate"? how about won't take responsibility for your own life? Why can't people like you accept the fact that we have to exercise SOME control of our own destiny. IF you read this whole thread, you'll see that you just said the same basic thing I said in a previous post. Also, I do have a "little empathy" but it's far outweighed by the fact that many times those in less than desirable situations wait for someone else to bail them out.

You can also kiss my ass with respect to your ignorant comment about my parents. They instilled a great value system in me which enabled me to overcome significant challenges to lead a satisfying life thus far.
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 2472
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Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 12:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey Rick, what do you say to those who have college degrees and end up laid off, having had their degrees obsoleted or having been 'efficiencied' out of a job? And what makes you think you're immune?

(Message edited by lilpup on July 22, 2007)
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Detroit_stylin
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Post Number: 4422
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Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 12:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

He doesn't think so. He is too busy living in his self-righteous present. No one truly knows how difficult life is for those had do not have...until they themselves do not have and can't deal with it. It's only then that they 'understand'...
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Economy_printing
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Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 12:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Anybody have photos or recollections of the 12th St. area before the %#$%^ that began on July 23, 1967? If it was mostly a Jewish area originally(was it) when did it change? What was the black/white ratio of that neighborhood in 67? Anybody know any of this?
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Rickinatlanta
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Username: Rickinatlanta

Post Number: 81
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 12:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'd respond at length to your two pathetic comments but I have to take the yacht out for a spin with the servants....
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Rickinatlanta
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Post Number: 82
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Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 12:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'd respond at length to your two pathetic comments but I have to take the yacht out for a spin with the servants....
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Psip
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Post Number: 1970
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Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 12:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mauser765, I think you are going to see some footage that has been gathering dust for 40 years. It is very high quality stuff. Over 3 hours has been screened and the very best is being used.
The footage are digital transfers from the original films. Not copies of copies or 3/4 inch Umatics. A great deal of care has been put into producing this special.
I am really looking forward to seeing it.
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Lilpup
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Post Number: 2473
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Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 2:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

According to Sidney Fine's mammoth work Violence in the Model City:

quote:

In 1966, 38 percent of inner-city businesses were actually black-owned, but these stores tended to be small retail businesses of the "mom and pop" variety. At the time of the 1967 riot, Jews owned less than 15 percent of the stores in the principal riot area. Jewish merchants, however, owned many of the larger, more prosperous businesses on the west side. They tended to be older persons who had remained behind when the Jewish middle class moved out of the area in the 1950s. As they retired or gave up their businesses for one reason or another, they were often replaced by Chaldeans (Catholic immigrants from Iraq).

unemployment rose in 1967 and more so in July, the month of the riot. The monthly average unemployment rate in the Detroit area for the fiscal year July 1966 to June 1967 was 3.9 percent, but the June 1967 figure was 4.8 percent and the July figure, 6.2 percent, a five-year high. The black unemployment rate was about 8 percent in July, and the rate in what became the riot areas, 11 percent or more. The highest unemployment rate at the time of the riot, probably between 25 and 30 percent, was among black youths aged eighteen to twenty-four.



quote:

When the Detroit riot began at Twelfth and Clairmount, Tom Johnson, the head of the Civil Rights Commission's staff, conceded that he had had "no indication" that a riot was coming. He recalled, however, that in 1966 his office had pointed to Twelfth and Clairmount as "the most likely trouble spot in the city." The Summer Task Force and the police commissioner had also anticipated that Twelfth Street would be the site if Detroit were to fall victim to the riot fever.

Those who saw Twelfth Street as the likely location for a riot were undoubtedly referring to the poorest and most crime-ridden census tracts in the Twelfth Street environs rather than to the Virgina Park area as a whole or the more extensive area on the west side to which the riot actually spread.



Fine gives 1965 data, 'the best available', for the area known as Census Tract 187, which had its northern boundary two blocks south of Clairmount:

quote:

the quality of life in the Twelfth Street area was vastly superior to that in the model city neighborhood inside the Boulevard, was somewhat better than that of Target Area 4b, but was decidedly inferior to that of the city as a whole. Census Tract 187 (bounded by Woodrow Wilson on the east, Fourteenth on the west, Euclid on the south, and Gladstone on the north) was the Twelfth Street neighborhood at its worst. Here, where the population of 4,893 was 98 percent black, the median family income in 1965 was $4,000, and the unemployment rate was 10 percent, triple the nonwhite rate for the city and six times as high as the white rate. Only 17 percent of the dwellings in the tract were owner-occupied, far below the percentage for nonwhites and whites in the city as a whole. The population density of the Virgina Park area was twice that of the city as a whole, but the 137 persons per residential acre in Census Tract 187 was more than three times as high. Census Tract 187 was one of the most congested in the entire city, a fact of some importance in explaining the beginning of the riot.

In a survey conducted between October 1966 and February 1967, 84 percent of the inhabitants of Census Tract 187 did not care for their neighborhood, and 92 percent wanted to move to another neighborhood. Seventy-two percent thought the neighborhood was "not too safe" or "not safe at all"; 91 percent said they were "somewhat or very likely" "to get robbed/beaten at night"; 80 percent were dissatisfied with the recreational facilities available in the area; and 33 percent were unhappy about the education their children were receiving. Whereas 48 percent of the blacks in a well-to-do census tract in 1965 indicated that the police would respond to a call about "housebreaking" in their neighborhood in ten minutes or less, only 22 percent in Census Tract 187 were of that opinion.
..
As the riot revealed, there were some blacks living in the neighborhood called Twelfth Street who felt they had "nothing to lose" by the riot but also others who wanted to protect what they had. There were those who made a determined effort to defend their homes, offering protection to firemen being pelted by the rioters, and there was the black who said, "Man, how can you call this place a home? This ain't no mother-fucking home. This is a prison. I'd just as soon burn down this damn place as any other."

As survey data gathered in the main following the riot made clear, many blacks in the areas of the city where the riot centered were dissatisfied with the quality of their housing, the city's urban renewal program, the nature of code enforcement, the quality of education provided by the public schools, the lack of recreational space in their neighborhoods, the character of their jobs, the practices of the merchants with whom they dealt, and above all, the behavior of the police. Influenced by the civil rights movement, rising black self-consciousness, and rioting elsewhere, they were less willing than blacks had been to put up with conditions that had long been their lot even though those conditions had improved and even though they were better off, on the average, than blacks elsewhere in the nation. Their grievances were no doubt accentuated by the rising unemployment that, as we have seen, reached 11 percent in the disorder area in July and perhaps 25 to 30 percent among the crucial eighteen to twenty-four-year-old group.

Sixteen cities,according to the calculations of Bryan T. Downes, experienced racial disorders in 1964, twenty in 1965, and forty-four in 1966. In the first six months of 1967, according to a much broader definition of "disorder" used by the Kerner Commission, there were thirty-three disorders in the nation, three of them major. In July, when the racial turbulence reached its peak, there were 103 disorders, 5 of them major. Newark experienced a major riot between July 12 and July 17 that followed the arrest of a cab driver. Six days later the "worst civil disorder" experienced by an American city in the twentieth century began in Detroit following a police raid on a blind pig.



(Message edited by lilpup on July 22, 2007)
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Scottr
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Post Number: 626
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Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 7:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One of those 103 disorders during July 1967 was in Flint, spurred on in part by the Detroit riots. I just read an article in the Flint Journal about it, and found it very interesting, and thought i'd post a link to it here.
http://www.mlive.com/news/flin tjournal/index.ssf?/base/news- 45/118510501079210.xml&coll=5
I found it interesting that they chose to let 100 suspects go, after getting them to promise to work to maintain peace. I wonder if that made the difference, and kept the riot from becoming deadly.
Even more interesting is that they realized later that the prosecutor didn't actually have the authority to release them. Imagine if they had realized that beforehand, and not released them - what would have happened?
I may write to the journal to suggest that they try to find some of the 100 that were released, and get the stories on what they did. It could make a fascinating story.
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Eec
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Post Number: 88
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Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 7:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rickinatlanta said:
_____
"less fortunate"? how about won't take responsibility for your own life?
_____

Re-read what I said. You're rationalizing too hard, and apparently missing the point.

Rickinatlanta also said:
_____
You can also kiss my ass with respect to your ignorant comment about my parents. They instilled a great value system in me which enabled me to overcome significant challenges to lead a satisfying life thus far.
_____

They obviously did a bang-up job teaching you manners as well.
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Mauser765
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Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 8:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"To me, it was a riot. People were taking advantage, looting. People were shooting at me, I saw...things. I would call it a riot."

-Ike McKinnon, on WJR this weekend.
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Lilpup
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Post Number: 2476
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Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 8:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

probably just depends which side one sympathizes with the most - the fact that some had the area pegged as a potential trouble spot means they sensed there were problems and issues going unaddressed

only 17 percent owner-occupied residential - wouldn't have guessed that low - but that largely explains the lack of restraint when trashing their own neighborhood
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Lilpup
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Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 10:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

guess what the CBC's homepage features upfront - www.cbc.ca
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Jimaz
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Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 10:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Local FOX2 has a special tonight at 10:30 about the riot.

Coming up in 10 minutes.
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Jiminnm
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Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 10:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As one who was there and saw too much of it, it was unquestionably a riot. Stores looted, folks losing a life's work, if not their lives, that was no rebellion.
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Lowell
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Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 11:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

At its core, 1967 was a rebellion, primarily against police but also a generalized rebellion against 'the establishment' with its legacy of racism and discrimination in practically all facets of society -- business, commerce, jobs, schools, housing and on and on. Read Sugrues's "Origins of the Urban Crisis" for the chapter, line and verse of that history.

The best way I think of it that it was a "We're not going to take it anymore." mood.

Once it blew, riot could best describes the first couple of days -- looting, lawlessness exploded but the fury was directed against institutions, not other people. Otherwise a whole lot more than 43 would have perished.

1967 was not a 'race riot' in that people were not attacking people of the opposite race, ala 1943, except in a very few cases -- the most well known being the Algiers Motel Incident.

My account in the HOF 1967 thread.