  Fjw718 Member Username: Fjw718 Post Number: 111 Registered: 11-2005 |
Does anything still exist, Station or Track-wise? | ||
Fishtoes2000 Member Username: Fishtoes2000 Post Number: 254 Registered: 06-2005 |
I was told that during the construction of Rivard Plaza on the Riverwalk, they found a large concrete turntable just under the surface. Rather than try and remove it, they adjusted the Plaza's design. I thought the plan was to add some signage about that eventually. | ||
Tkelly1986 Member Username: Tkelly1986 Post Number: 383 Registered: 01-2004 |
Are the right aways still there making it possible for commuter service to return to the RenCen area? | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2701 Registered: 10-2003 |
The right of way was the Dequindre cut. Most of the track is gone. The cut's about to be transformed into a park connecting tricentennial park to Eastern market. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2899 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Hooray for shortsightedness. | ||
Quinn Member Username: Quinn Post Number: 1413 Registered: 01-2005 |
As a regular biker in the area, and long-time (and once...now moved) resident of the immediate area, I believe the area where the train stopped is now a parking lot, and the tracks to that station have been built over with a parking garage. However, the grand trunk is still there...I'm sure it's still a possibility to have trains at least come south of Jefferson and get fairly close to the renaissance center (within a few blocks) There's a picture of the train station here: http://hometown.aol.com/motran zit/page9.htm If you notice, you can see shannon's old bar (McNarney's) in the upper left (this would be looking east) | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2702 Registered: 10-2003 |
Hooray for not spending money for thirty years supporting something that no one was using. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2900 Registered: 10-2003 |
Ndavies, you strike me as a reasonable person. So perhaps you can explain why it's not completely insane to demolish rail lines in an urban area. | ||
Transitrider Member Username: Transitrider Post Number: 14 Registered: 01-2007 |
Danindc: According to the Parsons report for SEMCOG's Ann Arbor to Detroit study, the Dequindre Cut is no longer suitable for commuter rail. It's Appendix C http://www.annarbordetroitrapi dtransitstudy.com/news/pdfs/ap pendix_c.pdf But yes, it's a shame that the SEMTA service from Pontiac was lost. The pathway will be on one side of the Cut, and the tracks area will remain. The Conservancy has left open the possibility that this could still be used for transit (perhaps a trolley connecting Tricentennial Park and Eastern Market.) | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2703 Registered: 10-2003 |
The rail lines weren't demolished. They disintegrated due to non use. If no trains are using the tracks why would anyone pay for the upkeep? The ROW is still there. If someone wanted to pay to put tracks back down they could. The line is still live and in use north of Eastern market. There is still demand for freight train service north of there. There has been no demand for trains south of Gratiot since the early eighties | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2901 Registered: 10-2003 |
Will the multi-purpose trail preclude restoration of rail service in the future (say, for commuter rail)? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3480 Registered: 10-2004 |
The trail presages that nothing much else will be present there. Might as well use it for something better than homeless/drinking/drugs/thugs. | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 1842 Registered: 04-2005 |
MICHIGAN - GRAND TRUNK WESTERN RR - To abandon a 1.31 mile segment of the Dequindre Line between m.p. 1.77 and m.p. 0.46 in Detroit, Michigan. Final Decision by January 28, 2000. (STB Docket No. AB-31, Sub No. 36X, decided October 21, served November 1, 1999) http://www.stb.dot.gov/ (Their db seems to be down right now) About the track north of this: http://thefederalregister.com/ d.p/2000-10-04-00-25245 | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2704 Registered: 10-2003 |
Some of the early concepts I saw for the park included protection for future use to include rail. I don't know if that is still in the designs. The biggest problem with the route is it's inherent separation from the population centers. It could really only service the RenCen and Eastern market. I think you would be better off terminating the route at Eastern market and transferring people to busses/light rail/cabs there. I don't see the bang for the buck to run it all the way into the east riverfront/RenCen. I don't believe the extra people you would pick up for the one stop extra would justify the couple of miles of additional track. This is the same issue that doomed the service in the first place. It was only good at getting you to the RenCen. I think the ideal solution would be for a commuter train to come in from pontiac and terminate near the amtrack station in New Center. This line could then be extended to connect Dearborn, the airport and Ann Arbor. You would then add a light rail line that ran along Woodward from New Center to downtown. This would connect to the People mover. | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 1843 Registered: 04-2005 |
quote: There were two of them in that area: the old Lake Shore and Michigan Southern RR at Atwater and Rivard, and the Detroit, Grand Haven, and Milwaukee RR at Guoin and Orleans. Both of them were there in the 1880s, not sure when they went out of use. | ||
Dabirch Member Username: Dabirch Post Number: 2357 Registered: 06-2004 |
quote: Yeah...and there wasn't really much demand for it in the early 80's either. Subsidized novelty... | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3481 Registered: 10-2004 |
Central Iron Foundry Company What is known about the Central Iron Foundry Company? I haven't come up with much over the years. | ||
Huggybear Member Username: Huggybear Post Number: 300 Registered: 08-2005 |
quote:B.S. The commuter train (Pontiac-Detroit) was depopularized by SEMTA's cutting service from 5 rush hour trains in 1980 to one (last train leaving the RenCen at around 4pm - as if anyone gets out of work that early). The frequency was a function of budget cuts, but the timing of that last train was deliberately designed to cut down ridership and justify shutting down the service. So I was told by a former SEMTA board member. (Message edited by huggybear on July 24, 2007) | ||
Rsa Member Username: Rsa Post Number: 1177 Registered: 10-2003 |
IMO the dequindre cut isn't necessary for a commuter line anymore. you could have one, or several, commuter trains end at a hub like the new center station. from that hub, you could then expand our "mass transit" system, hopefully in light rail form. it would seem counter-intuitive to have heavy rail/commuter trains running down greenspace connecting eastern market and the river front. however, i am all for one of the initial plans for the cut: half of it be a walking trail and the other dedicated to future light rail usage. that line could service and connect the DMC, the treasury building, future residential development east of the cut, the DEPSA school, eastern market, gratiot corridor, lafayette park, the riverfront, the state park, and terminate at the ren cen where people can pick up the people mover. this is one of my favorite photos of that station:  sorry for the poor quality: i've never bought an original. metropolis magazine published their most influential photos of the past twenty years and this one made the cut. i scanned it from there. the commentary reads that this seems like a modern day "metropolis" (fritz lang's 1927 movie) where people are heading off to giant structures to work (much like an assembly line). | ||
Dabirch Member Username: Dabirch Post Number: 2358 Registered: 06-2004 |
So -- you are saying that the train was not subsidized, that it ran full, that it was self-supporting, and then SEMTA decided to cut service so it could bleep ink on the bus system? Maybe my memory and understanding of history is not all it should be, but I believe the trains were underutilized and a huge money loser prior to the cuts, and the cuts made it worse. (Message edited by dabirch on July 24, 2007) | ||
Rsa Member Username: Rsa Post Number: 1178 Registered: 10-2003 |
ps. the right of way is still there and plotted, just don't expect future developments to utilize it. if grand trunk has abandoned it, then whomever buys the adjacent lots will probably have that right of way added onto their parcel. but, for the time being, it's still a possibility. keep in mind also that light rail could be brought onto the street, if need be (much like a trolley). | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 9621 Registered: 10-2003 |
So what makes the trains any different from the roads that we subsidize all over the state in under populated or rural areas? | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 556 Registered: 12-2006 |
No public transit system anywhere runs unsubsidized and few run full. No road runs at 100% of its capacity all the time either, and those are also subsidized except toll roads which Michigan doesn't have. When traffic was reduced on 8 Mile Road when I-696 opened, did MDOT cut lanes from 8 Mile because demand was diminished? No; MDOT continues to maintain all of 8 Mile and all of I-696. But when demand goes down on a transit line, the proper response is to cut service. Again, we treat transit users as second-class citizens, and then marvel at the fact few choose to use our bare-bones transit systems. Thank God Detroit gets it right unlike every other major Metro region. | ||
Dabirch Member Username: Dabirch Post Number: 2359 Registered: 06-2004 |
All I was talking about was demand. I made a statement that their was not that much demand. And that was one of the reasons the train service is no longer. I got a conspiracy theory response about a deliberate attempt on behalf of SEMTA to "depolularize" train commuting. I will stick by my original statement -- ridership was not that great prior to the cuts. The cuts quickened the demise or "depopularization"- but was not necessarily the root cause. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 9623 Registered: 10-2003 |
Fair enough. I just think it is silly to talk about subsidies when SE Michigan subsidizes roads all over this state and so much else. | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 1817 Registered: 11-2003 |
Wow, great photo Rsa. Danindc-- Removal of any rail line is very often a bad idea, but in this case Rsa & Ndavies are right IMO. There is a great need for good rail transit in and near downtown, but commuter rail along this out-of-the-way stretch is not the answer. Something much more accessible and visible such as light rail along Woodward is the way to go to foster any sort of transit-oriented development. And if there is a commuter rail hub somewhere it will probably end up in the New Center area. Plus, the right of way will still be there so it wouldn't be a major effort to put rail back in sometime in the future. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2902 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: There are two things I don't like about this statement: 1. A large amount of people work in the Ren Cen (and nearby). How is this "out of the way"? How does this compare to employment in New Center? And how is "visibility" relevant? 2. Where do you build a train station at New Center? Do you expect the existing Amshack to be able to handle a robust regional network? | ||
Rsa Member Username: Rsa Post Number: 1180 Registered: 10-2003 |
dan; i'm not sure if you're arguing specifically about doug's points, or propagating the idea of commuter rail down the cut in general. if you're doing the latter, i urge you to think more about the big picture. neither the riverfront nor the dequindre cut lend themselves to heavy/commuter rail at all. both of these developments are propagating a more pedestrian type environment that commuter rail would contradict. light rail would fit in a lot better and easier. shuttling people from the suburbs directly to the ren cen is also detrimental to a more pedestrian friendly atmosphere, as we've seen from the ren cen itself. this would also tend to enforce and further many people's negative impressions of the city (eg. "look at all the blight we have to be shuttled past", "detroit is so dangerous that you have to completely bypass the majority of it", etc.). let alone completely cutting off all of the places i mentioned in my post above. and not contributing to any type of economic (future or realized) development along that corridor. also, that "amshack" in the new center is a lot better than no station at all on the riverfront. it would be a lot cheaper to build off existing lines and stations than to completely rebuild existing or new ones. IMO the best way to approach mass transit for the city is to have commuter trains terminate at some of the neighborhoods on the fringe of downtown, then connect downtown with light rail. that way you can create "hubs" in the middle of the city. this way, you can expand the light rail to some of the neighborhoods closer to the borders. this way, people living in the city can use the commuter trains, instead of the primary goal being to shuttle people from the burbs into the city. real estate would be a lot cheaper in these areas (than downtown or the riverfront), people in neighborhoods could utilize the light rail to get anywhere in the city, and it could spur some economic development around the lines themselves (pedestrian traffic, homes in areas that formally required cars, etc.) don't get me wrong-i don't foresee this happening in the next ten years, but i think it's a much better approach for the future of the city. and it can service both the citizens of the city as well as commuters that live outside of the city. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2705 Registered: 10-2003 |
The RenCen commuter station is/was cut off from the majority of downtown by Jefferson and the Chrysler freeway. I doubt you'd find many people who didn't work at the RenCen using it. There are no real good ways in or out. This has been a complaint of the RenCen since the day it was built. Providing supporting local transit from there would greatly increase the congestion in a bad corner of downtown. The RenCen is now the HQ for GM. I doubt many of those workers would be willing to give up their GM subsidized cars and parking to use the train. You end up servicing one building that wouldn't have much demand to begin with. The other problem is this is one of the prime real estate locations in the city. A commuter rail station and the servicing tracks would be a terrible waste of prime near riverfront real estate. Also you are looking at New Center from the wrong end. While the Amtrack shack certainly couldn't handle true commuter traffic, It's the rail capacity already there that makes new center the right place for a commuter train center. Much cheaper to build a larger station than build the rail infrastructure. There is a large amount of vacant land there that could be repurposed to transit. It also makes more sense to put the commuter station in the center of your local service area rather than on the dead far end at the river. (Message edited by ndavies on July 24, 2007) | ||
Pete Member Username: Pete Post Number: 85 Registered: 10-2003 |
check out this old news clip: "AMTRAK OKS MONEY FOR JOE LOUIS STATION Clip of article published on 07/25/85, DETROIT FREE PRESS Amtrak's board of directors Wednesday voted to contribute $900,000 to the construction of a $5.55 million train station at Joe Louis Arena to serve intercity and commuter passengers. But the station may not be built unless the Southeastern Michigan Transportation Authority, which would share the station, finds the money to operate a proposed commuter rail line between Detroit and Ann Arbor. Amtrak suspended Detroit- Ann Arbor commuter service last year." it's interesting because during the last mayoral election, i asked mayor kilpatrick specifically about the proposed ann arbor-detroit line and a downtown station, and he told me that new track could be laid to a terminus at the joe louis arena parking garage (in addition to a stop at new center). if that were the case, there is really no need for the dequindre cut line, imo. |
