  Number1 Member Username: Number1 Post Number: 7 Registered: 07-2007 |
Does Metro Detroit do a bad job presenting itself to the rest of the nation? Even with all of our problems this is still a great place to live. Only about 8 or 9 metro areas in the US rank higher than us in population and amenities. Does the negative attitude that many Metro Detroiters have towards their own region affect our image and even our economy? | ||
Andylinn Member Username: Andylinn Post Number: 454 Registered: 04-2006 |
we have a fine region... you just have to drive for literally hours to get to everything... yes we have gourmet chinese... but it's in the boonies... yes we have a mexican district, OH, but it's downtown... Yes we have ikea... but it's in the boonies! (back in the car kids!) driving sucks... nobody wants to have to drive all the time... | ||
Jjw Member Username: Jjw Post Number: 391 Registered: 10-2005 |
I would say that there is more negativity toward the Detroit area coming from a local perspective than from a national or international one. When I get to Detroit (fairly often), I hear a lot of negativity. Really, the rest of the country has problems of their own local jurisdictions to deal with and really don't have time to develop an attitude toward Detroit either way. That is my own experience which is certainly not scientific, just an opinion. | ||
Number1 Member Username: Number1 Post Number: 8 Registered: 07-2007 |
Andylinn I want to point out that Metro Atlanta is much the same way as far as having to drive long distances, but people still move there in droves. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 563 Registered: 12-2006 |
I think Jjw is more or less correct. The only thing you see is that whenever anything negative (and unusual) happens in Detroit, the national media jump on it. I think that's partly because of some of the realities here such as the massive population outflow from the City itself, but also probably because for so much of the mid 20th century Detroit kind of lorded it over much of the rest of the country ("as GM goes, so goes the United States", for instance). But people in (say) Peoria spend 99.9% of their time worrying about what's happening in Peoria. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 9642 Registered: 10-2003 |
Depends what you are looking for in a region. If you ask me Metro Detroit, as a region is subpar. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2496 Registered: 06-2004 |
what are you looking for Jt1? | ||
Michigan Member Username: Michigan Post Number: 811 Registered: 04-2007 |
My anecdotal research results show that most people don't think of Detroit at all, or they think of it Negatively. Either case is not good. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2908 Registered: 10-2003 |
Detroit really doesn't have much of an image beyond Detroit. Frankly, I think the fixation on image is misguided at best, because reality will produce its own image for better or for worse. Detroit does have some good amenities, and lots of character when compared to Southern and Western locales. I think that a lot more could be done in this regard, though. For a region of nearly 5 million people, there are just too many things missing that you would normally expect to see in a functional metropolis. In many ways, the Detroit area behaves as a provincial medium-sized city. Attitude has a lot to do with how things are. For all of its blue-collar glory, Detroit and Michigan (like Cleveland and Ohio) has a "can't-do" attitude about things that keep it from progressing. | ||
Mind_field Member Username: Mind_field Post Number: 750 Registered: 10-2003 |
I agree with the subpar comment. So many other metros with a lesser population are better IMO. We haven't bothered to create any "it" place, even though we have had, and do have the capacity to do so. We have a joke of a mass transit system. An undiversified economy. We do have other factors working in our favor, but our negative image DOES do economic damage. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 564 Registered: 12-2006 |
We are the epitome of "building for automobiles", which is not the least bit ironic. The problem is, now that we know this doesn't work very well, we are very slow to do anything about it. For an example of how we still think (because this is a fairly recent project), go see M-59 in the Utica - Clinton Township area. That is how we still build. Awful. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1233 Registered: 04-2006 |
I agree that metro Detroit doesn't have much of an image outside of metro Detroit. I think it's probably because of metro Detroit's preoccupation with separating itself from Detroit. It's fairly common for locals to refer to themselves as from "Michigan" instead of "Detroit" even though the majority of Michigan's population lives in metro Detroit. I've run across many people outside of the midwest who don't know Detroit from Chicago. It's a shame for a city that made such a big impact on American culture in the 20th century. | ||
Jeduncan Member Username: Jeduncan Post Number: 114 Registered: 11-2006 |
In reference to what Andylinn said; I don't mean to hijack this thread, but did Ikea ever consider locating downtown? I mean, it just seems like it would make more sense, and it would also be great for the city to bring in not just retail, but huge retail. Plus, that intersection at Haggerty and Ford was already a cluster of shit 24/7, and then they brought Ikea there and everyone dreads having to go through there for anything. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 9646 Registered: 10-2003 |
Very few IKEAs would locate in a downtown. They like the huge amount of parking. | ||
Jeduncan Member Username: Jeduncan Post Number: 115 Registered: 11-2006 |
those wacky scandinavians! shit, they had numberous sites on which the had the option of building. Pick of the litter with all those vacant properties. although now that I think of it, who the hell wants a big box retail store with an oceanic parking lot in their central business district? Not I. STILL, though. Ikea would have been great for downtown if they would have just bent the rules a bit and built a structure! end. JED | ||
Deandub11 Member Username: Deandub11 Post Number: 133 Registered: 05-2006 |
I presently live in Chicago, and in terms of character, Detroit/metro area makes this place look like white bread. Our "fuck you" attitude for sure gives us a reputation (most people would say probably not a good one). In terms of negativity, it is insane how much of it comes from the people of our region. If you dont think people are suceptible to that type of attitude, whether from other parts of the country, or from Detroit Metro, youre wrong. It's completely fine to point out faults with our region, but the negativity has to end somewhere. Its counter productive and creates a self fulfilling prophecy. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 1307 Registered: 10-2003 |
Hmm. Funny, I recently met a guy from Colorado who told me he was amazed how nice people here are compared to people where he's from. Go figure! | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 1817 Registered: 02-2007 |
Well I agree with Jt1, it depends what you're looking for. If you're looking for down to earth people who are showing love and happiness for fun anytime, Detroit is the place. If you're looking for a decent choice of jobs, Detroit is not the place. If you're looking for Entertainment, Detroit is the place. If you're looking for decent Civil Services, Detroit isn't the place. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 3343 Registered: 02-2005 |
I agree with Jt1, on the whole, it's a subpar region. There is a positive correlation between a [heavily] decayed central city and a subpar region, too. All these things about metro Detroit/Detroit also correspond with us being a subpar region (I'll break it down into functional and aesthetic/cultural categories) -Functional- 1Few transit options/car reliance = added costs 2Poor roads in spite of it all 3Suburban congestion (nothing special about this though because all suburban metros have the same system of feeder/collector roads which lead to daytime congestion) 4Substandard rail system--3 trips a day on Amtrak! 5Decentralization of jobs...office parks and factories strewn across the area 6Unusually small high-density/mixed use core, giving few options for people who want urban living outside of the inner city (Ferndale, parts of Dearborn, Royal Oak?, a few streets in Grosse Pointe are the only places which satisfy this). The landscape for most of the metro is single-use housing pods seperate from single-use shopping areas, connected by busy and congested strips which are never walkable. The landscape is hardly ever integrated once you're more than a couple miles from the city limit. 7High insurance costs, especially in/near the city 8Despite recent redevelopment, a lack of downtown retail, therefore no clear shopping destination. Most/all upscale shopping is in malls. Even Pittsburgh has stores on its main streets downtown. 9Ann Arbor. Its an asset for this state and region at large, but it is a magnet for a lot of talent and people who would otherwise live in/near Detroit, in metro Detroit proper. It will help Detroit and Detroit will help A2 once there is commuter rail between the destinations. 10Segregation. 11Decline in school funding. Proposal A + the creation of deficits by strong teachers unions. 12Job loss, manufacturing reliance Aesthetic/Cultural 1Low density, even more than the average metro 2Flat 3Sprawling even more than the average metro 4Throw-away housing. With so much desire to always move up and out, extremely poorly built and designed housing has become the norm. 5Monotony of all the aforementioned characteristics 6Blight and abandonment in the city 7Fear of the city 8Fear of different types of people 9Ignorance shown in the mindless perpetuation of all the above symptoms by millions of people, as they never stop to question their lifestyle and the possibility to improve the area by changing their ways and opening their minds. -------- What we can work with (Positives) -Momentum favoring the city and especially downtown: a chance to give the region a real center and a positive identity. -Water...in the city and the suburbs! -A 300+ year history which should give us an identity. Hundreds of old landmark buildings in the city which provide character. -Above average universities in the city, top 25 university in Ann Arbor. -inflow of immigrants, which will hopefully continue -Great location a few hours from the gateway to a natural wonderland in northern MI; on an international border; 5 hours from Chicago; 10-12 hours from the east coast (or an hour by plane). -sports teams -a comprehensive freeway system to use when we all have hydrogen vehicles. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 1311 Registered: 10-2003 |
Is this a positive? Victorian Mansions that are affordable to the average middle class citizen, if they just took the chance to fix it up. Someday I tell you, it will be too late to cash in on those beauties because someone else will have already done it. | ||
Tkshreve Member Username: Tkshreve Post Number: 100 Registered: 07-2006 |
People don't think of Detroit until the media puts them in the toilet for some other calamity. Then the bashing begins..... | ||
Exmotowner Member Username: Exmotowner Post Number: 370 Registered: 06-2005 |
I didnt read all these posts, but Detroit/metro area has a TERRIBLE reputation! What world are you guys living in. I told one of the doctors I work for I was coming there on vacation, his reply "I'm so sorry"! People loath detroit as much as the suburbs themselves loath it. And Detroit hates the suburbs. If everyone would stop with the 8 mile line fight and WELCOME everyone maybe things would be better as far as outside perception goes. Guys I love detroit with all my heart, but do I feel safe or even welcome in my own city. NOPE I sure dont! I still feel Detroit/metro is the most racist city in the country. How can the outside world percive the detroit area with anything but distain when Detroit/metro itself hates each other??? Just my opinion! Now you may proceed to jump on me! | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 3348 Registered: 02-2005 |
Johnlodge, affordable housing is a plus, but we must consider why it's affordable. It's because demand has been low. This will be temporary, too, as the central Detroit market inevitably heats up over the coming decade. I forgot one positive point: -a great international airport on the other hand: no cheap, fast transit to connect it to downtown, yet. | ||
Eric_w Member Username: Eric_w Post Number: 278 Registered: 02-2007 |
Mackinaw- Excellent points. More sensible observations than anything that ever came from your namesake island's conferences over the years. If Detroit as the core city can come back and make itself more livable and better it will surely improve the region overall. I'd say the biggest challenge for Detroit above all else is the school system. If that can be fixed a big big hurdle will be cleared. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2909 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: While the schools certainly need help, it's misguided to tackle such an overwhelming problem as the first issue. The percentage of population with school-age children is only something like 25%. There are plenty of others in the remaining 75% who would love an urban lifestyle, and would pay taxes without worrying about the quality of the schools. The District of Columbia, for example, has terrible schools, but has managed to stabilize its population and increase tax revenues by becoming an attractive place for young professionals to live and work. This is not to say that families should be excluded, but families often use more in services than what they contribute in taxes. Detroit sorely needs to increase its revenues while keeping its expenditures stable. | ||
Jerome81 Member Username: Jerome81 Post Number: 1594 Registered: 11-2003 |
I'd say the reputation is bad all over. People think Detroit is hell on earth. However, it is worse within Metro Detroit. But I don't know if that's saying much that the national perception is better. Its like saying Metro Detroit's perception sucks a fat one, while the national perception is that Detroit sucks a smaller fat one..... I too love Detroit, and I've worked hard to overlook its glaring and obvious flaws and appreciate it for what it is. I enjoy coming to visit. Partly because travel is always fun, partly because the people I'm with are fun, and partly because what we do is fun. With that said, I did spend a summer in GP and enjoyed it. But it wasn't what I would have called an "exciting" summer. I was looking forward to a fun time in a big city, but it was dead most of the time. GP is a great place to live, but not when you were 22 years old and looking for adventure. The BEST thing about Detroit (and I agree people are friendly) is where it is. Detroit/Michigan is a wonderful state for people who appreciate what it has to offer. I grew up around the great lakes so maybe that's why there is a pull, but the maritime/outdoor opportunities are excellent. I think I maybe have more fun in Michigan doing outdoor stuff than I do when I'm back in Idaho. Sure Idaho has mountains and all that jazz, but it never has that summertime fun like Michigan does. We all had a great time in detroit for a recent wedding. A lot of relatives it was their first time in the city or the first time in a long time, and they all had a wonderful experience. With that said, and even for me, you can tell they enjoy themselves a whole lot more when they're in Chicago or San Francisco or Seattle than in Detroit. I suppose it is good Detroit exceeded expectations, but on the other hand, people's expectations are so low, exceeding them isn't really anything to be happy about. I suppose for me it can be summed up this way: If I had a job I wanted badly enough, I would certainly move to Metro Detroit or Detroit itself. But I were able to CHOOSE where I wanted to live, or start a business, etc, despite how much I have grown to love the city an my time there, Detroit would be WAY WAY down on my list. It just doesn't offer the fun of other big cities its size (or smaller), it looks rough, it is dead a lot, and there's a lot of crap to put up with and very little you get from that. I enjoy excitement, bustling, activity, and big-city amenities (aren't those some of the best things about cities?), and Detroit doesn't offer it up. Sure there are great suburbs and nice, beautiful homes, and all that jazz (like I said I LOVE GP), but you can find similar suburbs in pretty much any place in America. So why would one choose Detroit over all the others? Elsewhere you get suburbs that are the same, but you usually get a big city with real big city stuff and less garbage. That's my opinion anyway. And if it is coming from somebody who loves Detroit, imagine how most of the rest of the country/world feels about the D. (Message edited by Jerome81 on July 25, 2007) | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1236 Registered: 04-2006 |
>Jerome81 Your observation is common of outsiders and natives who have spent time in more vibrant areas. | ||
Eric_w Member Username: Eric_w Post Number: 279 Registered: 02-2007 |
Danindc I'm not suggesting excluding single professionals but to gain a better balance of populations. Eventually young singles do marry & want to have familes-what then? If there isn't a solid school system or infrastructure in the city it's Adios! They'll move out to places that do have it. I was raised in Detroit and lived later with own my family-about the only services we used were schools and trash collection & we paid plenty of state & local income and property taxes over the years for it. If I could been sure a good school system was available and a decent life was there I might have stayed in the city. There might be only 25%of the population of school age but if that 25% can't get a decent education to prep them for life as adults then you're looking at the next generation of criminals and people depending on the public dole to survive which is a big problem for Detroit now. (Message edited by Eric W on July 25, 2007) | ||
Paulmcall Member Username: Paulmcall Post Number: 278 Registered: 05-2004 |
How are you going keep em down on the farm after they've seen Paree? | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 3349 Registered: 02-2005 |
Well here's the trick: once you get all those younger, wealthy, or wealthy w/o children people to move to the city, tax revenue increases and you should have more money to throw at services and schools. It certainly goes beyond just funding though. Managment and the attitudes of parents need to change. A handful of truly great choice schools and some solid competition from charter schools will provide families w/i the city who put a priority on education with options. Don't forget, as is common in DC, families w/ money in the city have no problem paying for private schools, if they have other good reasons to live in their house in the city. We see plenty of this in Indian Village. People really want to live there, and believe a family can thrive there, but they are willing/able to pay for a Catholic school, the Waldorf School, GP Academy, etc. | ||
Lmr Member Username: Lmr Post Number: 73 Registered: 03-2007 |
3Sprawling even more than the average metro Huh? I would nominate Minneapolis/St. Paul where I live as having sprawl down to an art form. With relatively flat, buildable land on all sides we can make Detroit sprawl look tame. Most of it in the last 30 years, too. The image of Detroit is terrible outside of Michigan. One of my coworkers who is from Vermont and I doubt has ever set foot in Detroit except to change planes described Detroit as "that city should be leveled to the ground". That's not an unusual attitude. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4936 Registered: 08-2004 |
Detroit has a bad reputation in the metro area. But in outstate Michigan, the bad reputation includes all of metro Detroit. People in Alpena think that even Rochester is the Ghetto. The nation as a whole also think in terms of Detroit as a dangerous place. So when out of towners visit, their expectations are so low, that probably 90% of the time they come away with a positive attitude about Detroit, depending on what parts they visit. But once you get out of the USA, the reputation of Detroit is different. Europeans have a high regard of Detroit, even though they know it has industry and crime. Detroit is considered downright fashionable and chic in many European countries. This explains why many Europeans do come here to check out our musical heritage, etc. I remember seeing a pair of cool "Detroit Jeans" in a York England store window. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 3351 Registered: 02-2005 |
Gistok, your second point is so true. Most new people I bring to the city say "wow this isn't scary at all." Lmr, I believe you. Surely there are other places that even beat metro Detroit. Minneapolis has boomed in recent decades and the population has grown with a ton of demand for suburban housing. With all the available land up there, the impulse has clearly been to built outward, similar to SE Michigan. I have a friend from the western fringe of the the Twin cities. I don't think she saw a black person before she came to Michigan. | ||
Karenk Member Username: Karenk Post Number: 47 Registered: 07-2006 |
Wow, this is the first thread where everyone isn't bashing each other for their opinion. Thank you! Anyway, I was born and raised at 8 Mile & Van Dyke. Our old neighborhood is still in pretty good shape considering that was the mid 50's when we moved out. I always loved going downtown...Now, quite honestly, I still love it but I'm scared of it. Just look around, it looks scarey! I would love to see the neighborhoods my family lived in since 1854, but half are burned down and that is not a welcoming sign to me! Maybe this trip I will get up the nerve to drive through the side streets and take photos of the old places. I'm with Exmotowner,I always thought of Detroit as a racially/ethnically negative place. You may be welcoming "foreigners", but most really don't want them. Never did, never will. All of these threads seem to indicate that they want born and raised Detroiters living in Detroit. (Heaven forbide if you have moved away, but still have an opinion for these threads!) Sorry, bubba, but most have moved out. When I say I'm going to Detroit, most people say, "On purpose?". I have rambled enough. My heart loves Detroit, but my mind it frightened by it. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 2505 Registered: 07-2004 |
Often people don't have any image of Detroit.And for the most part I believe people are genuinely surprised at how nice the area is. Most probably don't know of Detroits great architecture and that surprises them. Most don't know of the DIA and when they see that it surprises them. Belle isle probably is a pleasant surprise to those unaware of it. I could name other things as well_ here is an anecdotal thing_ a friend of mine recently played the fox. He mentioned what a beautiful place it was and that many years ago he had played in a lobby of a similar looking theater and wondered if it was the fox. I told him there were seven or eight theaters in the area of the same era so while it would not have been the fox it could have been any one of those theaters_ that gives a positive image. As far as the area goes there is much to like here. It is very green here in the summer and quite pleasant in autumn as well_ I can't tell you how many people I have come across that remark on that_ it aint like that everywhere. There are dozens and dozens of lakes nearby as well as large bodies of water i.e. Erie and lake st claire. My take is when people are exposed to the area they come away knowing the detroit area is quite sophisticated. Sure some of you will disagree. But for the most part I believe I am accurate. | ||
Jerome81 Member Username: Jerome81 Post Number: 1595 Registered: 11-2003 |
citylover- I certainly understand what you're saying, and my experience has been the same. I guess the problem is their image is so low, its nearly impossible not to exceed it. That is the problem. People hear "Detroit" and they think "crappy". | ||
Jerome81 Member Username: Jerome81 Post Number: 1596 Registered: 11-2003 |
Ha! Want a great example? I am in a conference call right now, in CA, dealing with a customer in the Chicago area. To somebody in the call.... "Are you willing to travel, if they want to meet in Illinois instead of here?" "SURE!" "Yes, a trip to lovely Illinois" "Hey, its a whole lot better than Detroit" There ya go. | ||
Jb3 Member Username: Jb3 Post Number: 227 Registered: 06-2007 |
I agree with Detroit being pretty tame on sprawl compared to other cities. Most other boomtowns and, what we call, vibrant cities are reducing themselves to hardly anything but large outdoor shopping malls. Minneapolis and Denver both come to mind. I can appreciate the appeal of suburbanized downtowns, but you couldn't pay me enough to live there. Give me Boston, NY, Pittsburgh or Detroit anyday. Cities are meant to be gritty. Not with pollution, but with human resolve. Living in close proximity to each other, struggling towards the same goals draws people together and advances civilization. Reducing a City to a sterile tourist destination meant to serve the suburbs squanders the need for innovation. I laugh when people think of Detroit in a negative light or when they curl up their mouths when thinking of the place. While i completely disagree with KarenK about accepting foreigners, i will happily say to anyone that thinks Detroit is a terrible place that i don't want you here anyway. We need innovation and have the conditions ripe for it, so they can keep the suburbs in Atlanta, those people are useless to the rest of humanity. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 3356 Registered: 02-2005 |
Suburbanized downtowns suck; we should be glad ours is largely devoid of such layouts. Yes there are the BCBS and DTE campuses which block off streets, but at least those buildings are still high-rises. Jb3's second paragraph is great. KarenK, I don't think downtown should be considered scary in its current state. It is doing quite well, and it's safer then SE Michigan according to an average of crime stats. If you're scared of downtown Detroit, you're scared of most downtowns. To me, downtowns are only scary when they are vacant and have nobody on the street. Lately, downtown Detroit is pretty darn vibrant. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4943 Registered: 08-2004 |
Mackinaw, one thing that I have noticed about downtown is that those portions of the Woodward Plan of radiating streets that were actually ever built are all still pretty much totally intact. The superblocks of the Stadia, BCBSM, Cobo, DTE/MGM area were all built outside of the perimeter of the parts of the Woodward Plan that were ever finished. (The perimeter of the extant Woodward Plan are Adams on the north, Randolph on the East, Congress & Michigan on the south, and Cass & Grand River on the west.) All Campus Martius Park did was bring the center of the Woodward Plan back to its' original design, with a diagonal rectangular block in the middle with the short sides on the NE and SW. Unfortunately the Woodward Plan was never implemented in the Financial District, the historic heart of (pre-Woodward Plan) Detroit. For trivia buffs, there is one minor portion of the Woodward Plan that was filled in... when they expanded the Detroit Athletic Club parking structure, they closed a 1 block stretch of John R between Madison and E. Adams. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 3358 Registered: 02-2005 |
Are you sure you mean John R? I think you might mean Randolph. http://local.live.com/default. aspx?v=2&cp=42.338221~-83.0462 66&style=h&lvl=17&tilt=-90&dir =0&alt=-1000&scene=5649349&enc Type=1 Good points otherwise. I do like our financial district the way it is. Some of the nicest big city streetwalls outside of Manhattan can be found here (if only for a few blocks). | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4946 Registered: 08-2004 |
Yep, you're right, Randolph to E. Adams was closed. |
