  Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3464 Registered: 10-2004 |
Anybody with a modicum of uncommonly common common sense knows that deduction doesn't really require a whole lot of thought or reasoning. It's the formulation and accuracy of the premises that matter. Unfortunately for them, way too many radiclibs (who all seem to have their own agenda--like most people) let their emotions run wild, and they become temporarily insane with respect to their pet projects. | ||
Jasoncw Member Username: Jasoncw Post Number: 397 Registered: 07-2005 |
I agree. When big corporate people make big loud public statements, it's been calculated. In the past, he could have just been boldly stating his intentions, but with the announcement so close, whatever he's saying he's saying for a reason (I think to cause hype and make a bigger splash). | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5826 Registered: 10-2003 |
Livernois, do you not think Gilbert has not staked enough of his reputation on this for whatever he's hinted at for months now, for this him to have, more likely than not, chosen downtown as its new site? BTW, when you speak of emotions, I sure hope you're talking about someone else. While Quicken would be a great notch in downtown's belt, I'm not going to lose any sleep if they choose, otherwise. Lastly, the irony of you claiming others to be basing their views purely on emotions is enough for me. You've built this entire character (and, god, I hope this is a character) of "Livernoisyard" around being a predictable, bitter contrarian and curmudgeon. For you to even continue to throw out there that you're the forumers objective voice of reason is ridiculous to say the least. You're right, Gilbert will move wherever he wants. But, you're opinion on this is near shot considering how you're trying to explain away everything the man has directly said, let on, and implied. Again, you obviously have just as much an agenda as many here if not more so. If you want to play the role of a pretend ojective eye, you've really got to try better and be more subtle about your agenda, and, really, it's too late for that as you've made your opinions about this obvious from Day 1. I'm not going to say Quicken is moving downtown, but this idea that what we've heard would lead one to believe that a Farmington Hills move is as likely, if not more so, than a downtown move, and that everyone else but you is making forming their view on this based on emotions, is ridiculous. (Message edited by lmichigan on July 21, 2007) | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3465 Registered: 10-2004 |
I'm far more objective than the DY New Urbanist norm with all their agenda about others having to support their lifestyles. There's been nearly 400 posts on this single thread of this topic alone, and I haven't been on any of them--mostly telling Gilbert how to spend his money--until tonight. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5827 Registered: 10-2003 |
Yeah, you keep thinking that, not that I have you to tell you to keep up the great work, and all. Just don't think you're fooling anyone. Being a sadist, I know you'd get an equal, if not higher, high out of seeing them relocate to some office park than any of those wishing them to move downtown would get out of a downtown announcement. You're a bad actor; get used to it. | ||
Chow Member Username: Chow Post Number: 394 Registered: 10-2003 |
LY what would expect from a website called DetroitYes? Most people here would like to see the city, and consequently the region, be healthy growing place. Of course we all know what we would like to do if given the control, we are a collective of megalomaniacs. (Message edited by chow on July 21, 2007) | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3466 Registered: 10-2004 |
The region outside Detroit will be OK with Quicken where it is now. However, Quicken employees will have to take a pay "cut" via Detroit income taxes if Quicken relocates to Detroit. And Livonia may suffer some loss of tax revenue if some of that office space remains vacant. Other than that, it's pretty much of a wash to the Metro area wherever they are. The New Urbanists want (1) some more of largely vacant downtown occupied and (2) more taxes being paid by Quicken and its workers. Nothing really bad about that if Quicken decides to move to Detroit. However, Quicken is a decentralized company with some dozen plus offices scattered around. Maybe, that's the main reason why their employees like working there. Their call centers will probably remain as is now. And security analysts don't foresee Quicken expanding all that much because the housing industry is currently in a slump and is predicted to take until 2011 in order to return to its 2006 status. | ||
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 3995 Registered: 10-2003 |
I certainly hope my informant is incorrect and that Gilbert locates, even builds downtown. However, as for the argument that the so-called "Big Announcement" must mean he is doing that is without basis. It would be equally big, maybe bigger because of all the momentum in the other direction albeit disappointing, that he isn't. Should he choose not to move downtown how would that negatively affect him in the long run? Not that much. It is not like his business is dependent on any particular region such that it would lead to meaningful retaliation. The talk about moving downtown may be leading to internal staff disgruntlement for a variety of reasons [city income tax, urban myth fears, racism, etc.] but most of all for the extended commute as most likely the established work force has probably settled near the current work site and most likely north and west of it. The upsides to get him downtown have to be too-good-to-refuse offers combined with ego strokes like being elevated to regional hero status like Karmonos, Penkse or Ilitch. As for LY's contention that Quicken workers wouldn't bother to stay downtown a minute longer than necessary, that is absurd. Once they learned their way around, many of them would stay downtown, say for supper and a ballgame or other events. It always happens. A good number, who are not the picket fence breeder types, would also eventually avail themselves of the many excellent new choices of exciting downtown living in one of the many new secure enclaves that are popping up all over the place. When it comes to danger, long commutes are still the greatest risk they face not to mention the loss of time and expense that involves. | ||
Thnk2mch Member Username: Thnk2mch Post Number: 977 Registered: 02-2006 |
quote: Isn't that the area where Compuware was? | ||
Chow Member Username: Chow Post Number: 395 Registered: 10-2003 |
Not the exact area, but close enough. Compuware was on Northwestern between 13 and 14, I believe. Farmington Hills may have the amenities for workers, but downtown Detroit has amenities that favor business decisions. Places like the athletic club, fine dining, stadia, casinos, and the such are great places to swoon clients and investors. | ||
Jz_detroit Member Username: Jz_detroit Post Number: 18 Registered: 12-2005 |
Lowell, your little birdie is partly incorrect. Quicken just opened an office in Farmington Hills for their operations team and Southfield for a few of their teams because of the growth in the company. Again, as they have mentioned before many times....no decision has been made yet on a HQ. I understand that we all want to see Detroit be a success. However Quicken will do what is best for the company and its team members. One thing that is for sure is that Quicken cares about the community and is focused on making many changes in the region. | ||
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 3997 Registered: 10-2003 |
No, the area described was zoned out as an office park long after Compuware's emergence. Chow is quite correct, Farmington Hills while pleasant and convenient has nothing to offer when comparing entertainment, sports, culture, etc. that downtown offers. The rise of downtown Detroit has created a buzz with all its new construction, venues and housing. It has once becoming image positive for a corporation be downtown which is superior to anything around when offering entertainment and excitement for out-of-town business visitors. If Gilbert moves downtown, he will become a big shot with all the clout and ego stroking that brings. If he moves to FH, he fades away. Since he has all the money he could ever spend, this decision could be just as much about legacy as it is money. If so, he moves downtown. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 11638 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Livernoisyard, I'm curious as to why you would say that first of all. Secondly, what makes them so different than the Compuware employees? Compuware employees have been seen heading to ball games and at happy hours around town dating back to when they first moved down here. In your defense, it seems you were simply speculating and perhaps don't spend nearly enough time downtown to know otherwise, am I correct? In addition, I've met several Compuware employees that have moved to downtown BECAUSE of Compuware's move to Detroit. I can only assume that Quicken/Rock, which seems to have a fairly young employee base, would also persuade employees to move to Detroit with such a move. | ||
Shark Member Username: Shark Post Number: 275 Registered: 12-2003 |
quote: Right. Just like fellow millionaire, successful company-running, NBA team-owning, non-Detroit moving-to Bill Davidson. The only place he will fade away is in the minds of DYes posters. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4901 Registered: 08-2004 |
Who's Bill Davidson? | ||
Mdoyle Member Username: Mdoyle Post Number: 143 Registered: 10-2006 |
I would say that bill Davidson is definitely an afterthought in the minds of Detroiters. Ask a random person who owns the Fox, Redwings and Little Caesars, they answer Ilitch. Compuware has garnered enough press that a few would know that Karmanos owns it. Much fewer know the owner of the Pistons Bill Davidson and Dan Gibert will want to be known. They couldn't stop talking about him during the NBA finals and his huge scoreboard at the Q. Go big or go home. (Message edited by mdoyle on July 21, 2007) | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4903 Registered: 08-2004 |
Agreed, and Karmanos (who's first wife Barbara Ann died of breast cancer) has donated big time to the cause of cancer, via the Karmanos Cancer Center. His name (and hers) will be associated with charitable causes for a long time. | ||
Tkelly1986 Member Username: Tkelly1986 Post Number: 375 Registered: 01-2004 |
When Bill Davidson dies, does anyone think Gilbert would jump ship by selling the Cavs and buy the Pistons (pending they are for sale at that time)? (Message edited by tkelly1986 on July 21, 2007) | ||
Detroitprincess Member Username: Detroitprincess Post Number: 3 Registered: 07-2007 |
I am a Quicken employee, I am from the burbs and never thought I would live downtown. I moved downtown in March and LOVE IT! QL coming here would be the best decision Gilbert could make. I know for a fact there have been several QL employee who have already bought real estate downtown. More to come! There is a young and energetic crowd that works at QL. QL would bring that to Dtown and it would make a world of difference. I say BRING IT GILBERT! DTOWN IS READY!  (Message edited by detroitprincess on July 21, 2007) | ||
Andylinn Member Username: Andylinn Post Number: 448 Registered: 04-2006 |
I am one of the people who is fairly eagerly awaiting august. give me a call on this move already!!! some people get all excited about sports, i could give a shit, except for an occasional baseball or playoff game... what lights my fires is detroit development. Livernoisyard said that the POSITIVES of gilbert bringing the company to detroit are "a wash to the region" - think again. 2000 new employees to the central city are a HUGE perk for downtown. selecting the statler site would be GIGANTIC for grand circus park. think campius martius X2. also, of people that actually know WHO bill davison is, lump him with matty maroun and l. brooks, as anti-progress miserly ass-holes. trust me, he will either be forgotten or REVILED after he dies. Conversely, though he has also done many negitive things for Detroit, Illich (former tiger farm club player, BTW) is a HERO and adored by most local yokels. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3467 Registered: 10-2004 |
What are the actual employee income tax consequences of a firm doing business in Detroit--considering the two separate cases of those living in Detroit and those who do not? If a branch is in Detroit but the main location is not, those employees are taxed but what about those living/working outside of Detroit? My take is that they are not city-taxed. How does that change if a firm locates its HQ in Detroit? Do those working/living in the burbs then pay any Detroit income taxes? Enquiring minds... | ||
Deandub11 Member Username: Deandub11 Post Number: 125 Registered: 05-2006 |
This is not really part of this thread, but although Davidson has not done much for the city, please look up his charitable contributions to many causes. He is a very philanthropic person so please do not wholeheartedly bash him across the board. We all wish he would help the city more, but he does a lot for plenty of people. Additionally, he runs a business, if the city isnt first on his list of priorities and believes he can create more profit elsewhere, that is his prerogative. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 3305 Registered: 02-2005 |
You can respect him but dislike some of what he's done. Davidson built an exurban mega-arena that has eternally deprived the city of major concerts, and one of its most-beloved teams. That was a blow, and for that he can be disdained. LY, city taxes really don't give Detroit a competitive edge; on the other hand, how many individuals worry about that when the federal government takes 50, 100, or several hundred dollars from them every week, with little/none of that coming back to this area. Taxes are everywhere, they suck, but at least a person knows that city taxes go towards services they can often directly reap. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3468 Registered: 10-2004 |
Perhaps, if Quicken had a branch in Detroit while keeping its HQ out of Detroit might make its employee tax consequences better to stomach in that fewer of their employees would be affected. In any event, the overall impact of Quicken on Metro Detroit wouldn't change much either way. The housing industry will be flat for the next few years anyway. That seems to be certain. Bloomberg posted this on the Miami market yesterday: Miami housing glut. quote: This is for a part of the country otherwise in a boom. Other areas have similar problems. None of this helps mortgage brokers. (Message edited by Livernoisyard on July 21, 2007) | ||
Cabasse Member Username: Cabasse Post Number: 50 Registered: 01-2006 |
miami has built literally hundreds of 25+ story condo buildings in the past few years. it's booming, but it's really absolutely no wonder that there's a huge glut there now. the amount of towers that have gone up (and still continue to go up) is absolutely ridiculous. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 799 Registered: 01-2005 |
In the early '80's there were 60,000 unsold condos in Dade County (Miami) alone. They were eventually sold, and the institutions which made the construction loans to the developers usually made the below market end loans to the eventual purchasers just to get the condos out of the REO column and into the SF loan portfolio. So, there don't seem to be many new construction lending opportunities down there to the QLs of the world. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 3309 Registered: 02-2005 |
LY, I still don't understand your repeated point about how QL moving downtown will not have any special effect on the region. If it makes the downtown market for housing, retail, and offices hotter, and if it sets a trend for more downtown relocations (EVEN IF it is merely current metro firms moving downtown), then Detroit will clearly benefit, and a stronger central city makes for a healthier region. I'll even contend this: if QL and a handful of other Michigan firms (I'm limiting this to just musical office chairs within our area, to prove a point) move downtown, and no other new corporations move to Michigan, the Detroit and metro Detroit economies will expand and be healthier. A healthier downtown/central Detroit means a more appealing place for educated young people. Surveys indicate that Michigan's human capital is all geared up to move to Chicago, NY, etc. It's not because all the jobs are there, it's because, while in college, they start seeking out jobs in these cities because they consider it a foregone conclusion that they will not be staying in Michigan. If more of these people from our universities start staying in Michigan, and if we build a great enough Detroit to attract people from other states, then the economy will be better off. Not only will these people fill the jobs that are available to them here, these are the people that start their own businesses and employee others. They have talent and ideas. They need a reason to believe in the future well-being of this region, and they need Detroit to provide the big city experience that other cities have been providing. This cannot happen without downtown becoming a 24/7 neighborhood with many, many more employers than are currently located there. A QL relocation is a significant move in this direction; therefore, a QL move to Detroit over a suburb benefits the regional economy, especially in the long run. | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 1244 Registered: 12-2006 |
quote: By that description alone, Miami is starting to remind me of Seoul. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3469 Registered: 10-2004 |
Mac, all that nonsense has been emanating out of Detroit for decades. During the 1950s--I was only here for a short time--Cobo Hall was the key. When that lead balloon lingered on the ground, the RenCen would surely be a Savior. The Riverfront Apartments, the PM, Poletown, the casinos, the sports arenas, etc. would step in where none of the others did little, if anything, to stem Detroit's massive job losses and population emigration. So, you actually believe that I and others would be so willing to fall for more of that wishful thinking. None of Detroit's many fundamental problems--make your own litany of them yourself (BTW, easy to do)--have been rectified. Without them being dealt with first and after Detroit regains a track record of success (missing since WWII or maybe even the late 1920s), Detroit just won't turn itself around--even if dozens of Gilberts relocate their firms there. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5828 Registered: 10-2003 |
Who is even implying that, Livernoisyard, that a dozen Quicken-sized business moved downtown that it would turn Detroit around? The point is that Detroit will be better off. That's like saying that people shouldn't see the benefit in, condo developments and lofts because "well, a thousand people are leaving a month". Is your take that we shouldn't do anything, because we can't do everything? A Quicken move downtown may not mean as much as some think it may, but it's ridiculous to try and paint Detroit as better off without a recentralization of the local economy. If you think people are banking on a Quicken or a Compuware of (insert name of corporation here) to turn around the city either overnight or in the forseeable future, you're crazy. Really, I'm not sure, at all, what your point has been, here, rather than bring your usual unnecessary pessimistic viewpoint to the conversation. It may pain you like no other to see people genuinely hopeful and positive, but just expect to be called on your perpetual negativity, just as you believe you're calling people on mindless optimism. Yes, you can i{try} to rain on every parade you want to, again, just don't think you're fooling anyone with your gloomy, sadistic self. (Message edited by lmichigan on July 21, 2007) |
