 
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 3470
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, July 21, 2007 - 9:38 pm: |    |
Again, the NU resort to cheerleading and its typical name-calling instead of logic and commonsense. If Detroit were such a hot commodity, Gilbert and countless others would surely have committed themselves years ago lest there were no further opportunities left. Yet that isn't happening. Wonder why...
BTW, GM picked up the RenCen at a fire-sale price--far less than its building costs. It's strange that some (visionaries?) gauge success of Detroit based on a tiny bit of its total area--downtown. It's as if the rest of the city doesn't (need to) exist.
Consider, for once, what Detroit actually lost so far: over a million people, for one thing. How many jobs would that amount to? If only 35% of that 1+ million had jobs, there would have to be over 350,000 more jobs--just for Detroiters. Now, what would the New Urbanists suggest that would attract that minimum number of additional jobs needed, just to reach its 1960 level? |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 3311
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, July 21, 2007 - 9:49 pm: | |
LY, most of your examples were civic or civic-subsidized projects, and aside from that, they occurred during a time where they truly went against the grain. Anti-urbanism was common in Detroit and across the country. Basically all cities were shrinking. Now there is momentum (interest in cities), and Detroit WILL capture it, get itself back on the map, and get the regional economy back on track.
Is it a coincidence that Michigan has the worst economy and some of the most dysfunctional, decayed cities? We lack good, interesting places for people to live and work. If we enable the development of such places, and cheer on businesses who are part of this new creation (because it takes economic activity not government programs alone to make it all happen, as you and I agree), we will find ourselves with a more widely appealing city in a more appealing metro area in a short amount of time.
I think you secretly agree with this, LY. You've just been very acrimonious in your banter lately, starting with your post hailing the virtues of a QL move to Farmington. You're tone went from gloomy and predictably pragmatic (which was fine) to 100 percent negative. On the eve of this good news for Detroit, that's the most logical thing for you to do in your mind, I guess. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 3471
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, July 21, 2007 - 10:06 pm: | |
Gilbert will settle in Detroit--after he gets all he can in the way of bennies from Detroit and Michigan's taxpayers. That's how businesses operate in that respect.
But, it's no big deal to metro Detroit--a wash. Moving from Livonia and moving a few miles east. Big deal! Even if he brings in a few small concerns. Again, big wow!
Detroit mushroomed in population and jobs in a time span of a quarter century. It's been all downhill since then. Three quarter centuries of negative growth with a short spurt of growth during WWII. And Detroit's houses in the rest of Detroit are continually being lost to arson and neglect. So, some tiny relative downtown rehabilitation is supposed to counteract all that?
I'm not gloomy at all that, just being realistic. Detroit takes a step forward and three backwards. Nothing new, really. |
Southen
Member
Username: Southen
Post Number: 242
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, July 21, 2007 - 10:21 pm: | |
LY who is saying that Quicken moving downtown counteracts all of Detroit's other problems? Youve run out of legit arguments against QL moving downtown that you now have to resort to putting the move into perspective based on Detroit's past. It's illogical to suggest that people shouldnt be excited about QL possibly building a HQ downtown because of the city's decline since WW2. The more you post on the topic the less intelligent you appear. Im just waiting for your next assinine argument. |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 3314
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, July 21, 2007 - 10:57 pm: | |
LY, is it literally all about population? I agree, getting population to increase again should be the goal. That's just not realistic now, when a few hundred new people are moving into the central city and a handful of other neighborhoods, while most of the other neighborhoods slowly leak. You can't judge success by this alone, but you can judge the future of this region based on the trends in the city. A new population inflow to counteract the outflow is a great trend, no, especially if these people are considerably wealthier and purchasing valuable property that they'll pay taxes on? You know damn well the city can improve itself without seeing net increases in population. Check Philadelphia's stats for an example. There's a lot wrong in that city, but a hell of a lot of good and awesome things. All in all it's been a successful place lately. That's because it's not all or nothing when you assess a city. A city can be something between a crap hole and the next NYC. It can be somewhere between booming and tanking. Philly put intense emphasis on downtown development and making its downtown and adjacent areas good places to live, much like Detroit is trying to do. Overall, they've created a good situation for themselves by means of this tact, despite continuing problems in other neighborhoods and in the city government.
Detroit is 138.8 square miles. Will you be unhappy as long as part of that massive area is still depressed and not growing? Will you be unhappy if it still takes tax breaks and government handouts to encourage investment in some areas? I think you will be unhappy, because even if all our problems were solved overnight, you'd still be talking about the previous 50 years and how we went downhill and clearly should never be able to come back. |
Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan
Post Number: 5830
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 21, 2007 - 11:09 pm: | |
Mack, great points, but are you just not realizing that it's impossible for him to see most anything objectively? What will he do when the schools get better, and when violent crime begins to decrease, significantly, and when most of the city neighborhoods can compete with their similar suburban counterparts? What will he do with a fully realized Detroit and Southeast Michigan? It's obvious, to me. Either, he'll probably get truly depressed, and just get nastier. I unfortunately know too many people like him. Though, I'm neither of these, and believe that most people aren't either of these things, as well, I'd much rather be overly optimist than overly pessimistic. Only one of those is forward-moving and thinking. |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 3317
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, July 21, 2007 - 11:19 pm: | |
He cares enough to be on his forum. There's probably a lot of thoughts he's not sharing. |
Rbdetsport
Member
Username: Rbdetsport
Post Number: 316
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 12:09 am: | |
"On the eve of this good news for Detroit, that's the most logical thing for you to do in your mind, I guess."
Mackinaw, is it for sure that tomorrow will be the announcement? |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 3319
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 12:13 am: | |
Hell no. Although that's some people's predictions. I'd be shocked if it wasn't in the coming week. |
Rbdetsport
Member
Username: Rbdetsport
Post Number: 318
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 1:06 am: | |
What time does detroit news update? |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 3321
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 9:14 am: | |
Normally 2am, if you're waiting for big news. |
Rbdetsport
Member
Username: Rbdetsport
Post Number: 319
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 10:17 am: | |
Well, I'm disappointed. I really did think I was going to wake up this morning to see an announcement. |
Downtown_remix
Member
Username: Downtown_remix
Post Number: 433
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 10:53 am: | |
Dont know how strongly this is connected, but Trolley Plaza staff will know their fate July 30th. Habitat takes over management plus other interests in ownership starting Aug 1st. The reports about a quicken announcment specified "by Aug 1st, end of July for an announcment. |
Rbdetsport
Member
Username: Rbdetsport
Post Number: 321
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 11:15 am: | |
Im thinking Wednesday will be the announcement. GOD, CANT THEY JUST ANNOUNCE IT ALREADY. I AM FREAKING OUT HERE. |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1650
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 12:56 pm: | |
"I'd be shocked if it wasn't in the coming week."
You might want to prepare to be shocked then...
People are acting like an official date for an announcement has been set while Gilbert merely told a reporter that they'd have something more to discuss the end of the month...that could mean a lot of things...
(Message edited by thejesus on July 22, 2007) |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1685
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 12:53 pm: | |
tic toc, tic toc |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 1308
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 12:54 pm: | |
DAMNIT TJ!
Everytime I see this thread pop up to the top again, I think something's happened. |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1686
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 1:03 pm: | |
:D |
Urbanize
Member
Username: Urbanize
Post Number: 1818
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 1:04 pm: | |
:-( |
Motorcitydave
Member
Username: Motorcitydave
Post Number: 56
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 1:22 pm: | |
Yeah.... this may be, or may not, be off the subject ...lol.... but they are working on the United Artist daily now.... they have a window washer scaffolding hanging on the side of the building.... much like the one that has been hanging off of the David Whitney for the last month or so....  |
Urbanize
Member
Username: Urbanize
Post Number: 1819
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 1:25 pm: | |
Oh wow, if what I think is happening, that means no new skyscraper :-( |
Motorcitydave
Member
Username: Motorcitydave
Post Number: 57
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 1:53 pm: | |
I just hope it isn't moving into one of them, and building a nice fresh parking garage in the middle, on the Statler site... 
I am obviously hoping more for a new Quicken HQ on the Statler site... and maybe announcements of United Artists and David Whitney rehabs in the process.... one could only hope anyway.... |
Defendbrooklyn
Member
Username: Defendbrooklyn
Post Number: 354
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 1:54 pm: | |
snag it already... |
Scs100
Member
Username: Scs100
Post Number: 1258
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 1:58 pm: | |
Well, Gilbert did say he wanted to make a huge announcement... |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 3345
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 2:05 pm: | |
Let the chatter begin again. I did say that 7/26 would be the day. I would be extremely pleased with rehabs + a smaller building on the Statler. |
Detroitrulez
Member
Username: Detroitrulez
Post Number: 309
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 2:09 pm: | |
bump |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 4927
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 2:09 pm: | |
No silly, it just means that that shallow office building (due to the theatre behind it) could probably not hold more than a thousand employees anyway, so it could just be a component of a larger project.
It's nice to see that there are several of us "clueless" folks on this Forum that sees that it appears to be MORE than a coincidence that BOTH the United Artists and David Whitney Buildings have "restoration prone" (non-demo) scaffolding on the sides of their buildings at the same time??
Looks awfully suspicious, unless maybe something big might be planned for the block that separates them....
Wow, several of you beat me (in record time) to answer Urbanizes post...
(Message edited by Gistok on July 25, 2007) |
El_jimbo
Member
Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 261
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 2:10 pm: | |
Um...I might be WAY off on this, but I remember a long while back when the Quicken rumors were first starting to circulate, there was some speculation that Gilbert was looking into the potential of building an office tower on the Statler site while simultaneously renovating the Whitney Building into a residential development that he would market towards his own Quicken employees and other professionals. This could explain the scaffolding around the Whitney.
Like I said, I'm drawing on something I only vaguely recall from at least a year ago. I could be totally wrong. |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 3347
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 2:14 pm: | |
That is the ideal scenario to me. It doesn't matter if his new building is a skyscraper or something the size of One Kennedy Sq. IF the downtown population increases by several hundred thanks to that sort of rehab. That is the most important thing when it comes to revitalizing Woodward and Washington (i.e. getting some retail tenants). |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1687
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 2:18 pm: | |
^yeah, that sounds like a lot of speculation...but I must say that I find the idea of living in a rehabbed Whitney more appealing than living in a rehabbed UA...
too bad there not a market that could keep the Whitney commercial... |