  Atperry Member Username: Atperry Post Number: 255 Registered: 12-2004 |
http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.d ll/article?AID=/20070616/METRO /706160377 | ||
Mikeydbn Member Username: Mikeydbn Post Number: 348 Registered: 04-2004 |
Is the new ampitheatre replacing Chene park? I know KK wanted to move that to Hart Plaza a while back... | ||
Downtown_remix Member Username: Downtown_remix Post Number: 343 Registered: 03-2007 |
Detroit 2010 will be a party paradise | ||
Genesyxx Member Username: Genesyxx Post Number: 748 Registered: 02-2004 |
Any plan calling for Ford Auditorium to go bye-bye is a plus in my book. I know this might sound weird, but they might've gotten rid of too much concrete. If you've ever been to a festival, the foot traffic is congested as is. Hope Hart likes a lot of worn grass paths. As far as Chene goes, it wouldn't be surprising if KK got his way and sold the land off in the future. Riverfront property is high-rent and on demand so it seems like a logical choice. Downtown seems to be coming together.. too bad the rest of the city is falling apart. | ||
Ramcharger Member Username: Ramcharger Post Number: 311 Registered: 05-2006 |
There is not one mention in this article of Isamu Noguchi. They act as if the plaza was designed by some hack in the parks and recreation department and not a world famous artist and landscape architect. This city is so half-assed backwards they pave Belle Isle and want to put more grass in Hart Plaza. They can’t even afford to cut the grass in the parks as it is. After a year or two the Wal-Mart Plaza (or whoever is the highest bidder) will have that distinctively unmaintained Detroit look about it. | ||
Hans57 Member Username: Hans57 Post Number: 156 Registered: 05-2006 |
Ramcharger, I love your optimism. | ||
Ramcharger Member Username: Ramcharger Post Number: 312 Registered: 05-2006 |
Well, here’s some optimism for you, I’m optimistic that they won’t find the money for this stupid project. | ||
Downtown_remix Member Username: Downtown_remix Post Number: 344 Registered: 03-2007 |
Ok im stepping in. City treasures have to be revamped. Hart Plaza needs this tip/tuck. Can become a (Pretty) riverfront park Capital Parks will get revamped Campus Mart (Done) Eastern Market will go private management Belle Isle will become user friendly (yes you can get out the car an walk!!! Parking lot for auto show is ugly but it can propel foot traffic on the island, how bout open air farmers market? River Walk (Wow) | ||
Southen Member Username: Southen Post Number: 189 Registered: 08-2006 |
Ramcharger the fountain which is the centerpiece of the design will remain and still draw Noguichi enthusiasts. Some plans and public places need to updated with the times. Hart Plaza is under utilized and I think really contains too much paved area. The new plan will bring some more green and foot traffic. Im hoping that if this plan is realized that it will be of the same quality as Millenium Park in Chicago. Im not speaking of the monuments or the Gehry band shell but just good overall landscaping and design. | ||
Ramcharger Member Username: Ramcharger Post Number: 313 Registered: 05-2006 |
What Hart Plaza needs is proper maintenance and some TLC. The great urban plazas around the world such as St. Peter's Square or the Grand' Place in Brussels' are not redone every 30 years. I’m all for bringing down Ford Auditorium and expanding the plaza, but this should be done without destroying Noguchi’s design. | ||
6nois Member Username: 6nois Post Number: 335 Registered: 11-2006 |
Hart Plaza as it stands has an old work communist feel with all the concrete and cameras, very 1984. I view this as a welcome change. And the removal of the Ford Auditorium is a good thing. | ||
Buddyinrichmond Member Username: Buddyinrichmond Post Number: 185 Registered: 02-2004 |
Hart Plaza is no more underutilized than CM Park. CM park just happens to enjoy more regular programming. Boondoggle. | ||
Fishtoes2000 Member Username: Fishtoes2000 Post Number: 226 Registered: 06-2005 |
I would love any redesign that provides an alternative route to the Riverwalk or widens what's there. It often times very congested and not easy to ride a bike through there. | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 2254 Registered: 07-2004 |
I am not gung-ho about replacing the pavement with grassy areas. As someone mentioned earlier, for big events or festivals, it's hard to manuever around Hart Plaza, especially when additional tents(Jazzfest)are set up or booths are added for vendors(African World Festival). Perhaps some grassy areas around the fountain would be fine to break up all the concrete around it, but the walkways around the fountain should remain intact. I definitely like the idea of tearing down Ford Auditorium and replacing it with a new amphitheater. If that means getting rid of that pyramid stage, then that would be great as well. I just never cared to view a performance in that location. | ||
Southen Member Username: Southen Post Number: 190 Registered: 08-2006 |
Ram I dont think you can even begin to compare Hart Plaza to St Peters and Grand Place. Hart is downtowns largest open space, it needs to be green. The new plan may change Noguichi's master plan, but is it that big of a deal if it ends up being better for the city and area? | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 1129 Registered: 10-2006 |
Seems to me that there are many other parks that could use an upgrade. While Hart Plaza is not perfect and arguably a bit dated, it still seems to function quite well for the events that it currently does host. While one could argue it has more of a concrete feeling than a park feeling, that works out o.k. for it. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2995 Registered: 02-2005 |
At long last, a real plan to get rid of the Ford Aud. This is great, and putting an ampitheatre there and turning the Chene Park site into a development parcel is even better. Two years? I can't wait. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 2422 Registered: 07-2004 |
As a fan of all architecture including mid 20th century; I find it sad how easy you all dismiss Ford aud. Obviously when it was built there was a need and use for Ford aud. It seems most of you are incapable of seeing or envisioning much at all. Ford aud is no hindrance to Hart plaza.I have been to Hart plaza countless times and Ford aud is an inconspicuous presence. Ford is a good representation of mid century architecture. There are other example in Detroit as well and they deserve the respect given other significant architecture. Just remember had somone not had the smarts to save Orchestra hall and another to restore(michcon) the guardian then none of us could appreciate their glory. I'm a bit with ramcharger.As soon as I saw the bit about " lining up the funding"... or whatever was said I knew this may or may not happen. Modus operandi in Detroit is to neglect something till it turns to shit and then advocate for it's demoltion.Ford aud will likely come down and a good pice of midcentury Detroit will be gone and the city will look all the more pedestrian for it. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 984 Registered: 04-2006 |
I'm guessing that the grass will be removable for festivals like at CM? | ||
Downtown_remix Member Username: Downtown_remix Post Number: 348 Registered: 03-2007 |
Mackinaw- I cant wait for these 2 years to fly by. One of my relatives already put a deposit on a condo at the Book Cadillac. They are super excited about the return to Detroit after 15 years in Cali. She will be able to grab her latte in Capital Park, take her grandkids to the revamped Hart Plaza, dine at the new riverfront french bistro or seafood restaurant. walk the riverwalk to the carolsel | ||
Kslice Member Username: Kslice Post Number: 65 Registered: 04-2007 |
I'm not against a revamp but here's some problems i have with it: 1. Grassy area, This grass will never look good as it would get too much traffic. 2. Selling naming rights, it has a name HART PLAZA!! 3. Ford Auditorium, I like the pyramid, it's cool to sit on. 4. O yes, with all the abandoned property dont we have enough open grass and tree areas? 5. Any $ could be used so much better. Maybe tearing down some burned out houses, hm? | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 2256 Registered: 07-2004 |
BTW, I saw a guy riding a Segway in Hart Plaza on Thursday. The first time I have seen one in person. Pretty cool. I couldn't determine what he was there for. Has anyone else seen them in Hart Plaza? | ||
Ramcharger Member Username: Ramcharger Post Number: 315 Registered: 05-2006 |
quote: Why would you want to sell off riverfront parkland? It took decades to finally rid the riverfront of the cement silos and what happens? Instead of the land becoming parks, like Coleman Young envisioned, our shortsighted mayor immediately sells it to private developers and everybody seems to think this wonderful. Now you propose selling off some of our existing parkland; incomprehensible! | ||
Ramcharger Member Username: Ramcharger Post Number: 316 Registered: 05-2006 |
Citylover, I agree with you about Ford Auditorium. It is a handsome building representative of its’ times. With a little imagination, it could have found new life after the DSO left. It could have been converted into a museum or it could have served as a performing arts center just to name a few. It is truly sad that it has been allowed to sit and rot for so many years. Unfortunately, most people have little or no respect for the art or architecture of the generations immediately preceding there own. (Message edited by Ramcharger on June 16, 2007) | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 4565 Registered: 10-2003 |
Will the Ford family be pissed if it's torn down? | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4557 Registered: 08-2004 |
I am no big fan of mid 20th century architecture. However, I do agree that to lose Ford Auditorium would be a shame, since it is one of the best examples in Detroit of that genre. On the other hand, Detroit already has plenty of performing arts centers, with a few others potentially waiting for a future (National Theatre, Moose Lodge, United Artists). So if there could be some other use for that building I wouldn't mind it. The thing that I don't like about an amphitheatre on the Ford site is that it represents the enormous waste of money that this city goes thru. First they built a 3,000 seat amphitheatre at Chene Park in the early 80's. Then in the late 80's they tore it all up and built up the hill to make it a 5,000 seat amphitheatre. And now they want to rip it all out to build an amphitheatre in Hart Plaza. A big waste of scarce dollars. And of course now they want to rip up much of Hart Plaza so as to bring it into the 21st century. Can I make a suggestion... can we get away from ALL the "trendy" ideas for building our downtown? Haven't we wasted enough money in the last 30 years with the crap on Washington Blvd., Hart Plaza and Chene Park? Even St. Aubin Park (where the boat slips are) is being redone for another flavor of the month for Tricentennial Park. And how many times do we have to relocate the Soldiers & Sailors Monument, the Bagley Fountain, and yes even the Merrill Fountain, until we get that right as well? How often has Rome's Trevi Fountain been moved? Or for that matter the Egyptian Obelisk in Paris's Place de la Concorde? Or the monuments in London's Trafalgar Square? The answer to all 3 is NEVER!! So why do we feel it necessary to keep making the same mistakes in Detroit over and over and over again... One would think that Detroit's Urban Planners are morons, even though that is hardly the case. If we had taken all the money that has been spent in the last century of planning and replanning, and just built beautiful squares and plazas... THAT WE KEPT INTACT (rather than reinventing them every 15 or 20 years)... Detroit would be a much more beautiful city today! | ||
Ramcharger Member Username: Ramcharger Post Number: 317 Registered: 05-2006 |
<applause> <applause>! | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1488 Registered: 11-2003 |
I hate to tell you, but Ford Aud was never that great of a performing arts center, which is why the DSO chose to do most of their recordings from that era in places like the old Cass Tech Aud or the UA. Maybe a great place for a lecture, but how many of those do we have around here? The economic club uses Cobo or places like the Masonic Temple. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 704 Registered: 01-2005 |
Could it be that the same people who object to demolishing Ford Auditorium were the ones who wanted to fight to the death to save the Madison Lenox or S-H? Probably. Personally, I could care less. I think every building should be demolished after 60-75 years. That would provide room for new uses, new architectural ideas etc. | ||
Ramcharger Member Username: Ramcharger Post Number: 318 Registered: 05-2006 |
quote: That means both the White House and the U.S. Capitol Building are long overdue. | ||
Downtown_remix Member Username: Downtown_remix Post Number: 349 Registered: 03-2007 |
we have to take every proposal as a chance for a "bottomed out" city to literally start things over. We were built to hold 3 million or more people in the city limit; catering to a different generation. Television hardly existed so we built theaters everywhere,(second largest outside of NYC), a massive train station, miles and miles of storefronts, Wide 8 lane Main streets (Michigan, Grandriver,Gratiot, Woodward) that carried all these people to neighborhoods that represented the largest concentration of single family homes in the country and 100s of factories filled with workers. No other city has had such drastic changes. I hear bitching an moaning about every proposed re development plan, yet once it opens, its a hit. We are starting from scratch, downsizing, shrinking our goodies in a city that will soon hit a population of 750,000 residents. | ||
Ramcharger Member Username: Ramcharger Post Number: 319 Registered: 05-2006 |
quote: Ford Auditorium was never a great symphonic hall. That doesn’t mean that the auditorium couldn’t have been reconfigured into two or even three performance spaces. My point was that some use could have been found for the building rather than letting it sit empty and neglected for 18 years. | ||
Ramcharger Member Username: Ramcharger Post Number: 320 Registered: 05-2006 |
Downtown_remix, speak for yourself when it comes to "shrinking goodies". | ||
Downtown_remix Member Username: Downtown_remix Post Number: 351 Registered: 03-2007 |
many thing went empty and neglected, everybody an all monies left the city. the great shrinking city. | ||
Ramcharger Member Username: Ramcharger Post Number: 321 Registered: 05-2006 |
I’ve been thinking of some possible names we might get stuck with when the city hawks the naming rights for Hart Plaza. Here are some Ideas: * Little Caesar’s Forum. * Target the Hart Plaza. * Staple’s T-Square. Does anyone else have suggestions? | ||
Cgunn Member Username: Cgunn Post Number: 56 Registered: 01-2004 |
Well I hope the naming rights only go to the new auditorium and not the entire site. There was a recent article re: renaming venues on freep.com. http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=2007706130341 | ||
Mind_field Member Username: Mind_field Post Number: 720 Registered: 10-2003 |
Maybe i'm showing my recent lack of patronizing downtown Detroit at night, but since when did the fountain in Hart Plaza become operational with multi-colored lights on a non-festival weekend night? I saw it working during the hoedown and thought, "oh that's nice, but it'll be off after the festival". It really is a very nice fountain. Honestly, i enjoy it a thousand times more than the Campus Martius Park fountain. It is more interactive, as in you can touch the water, and it definitely is more monumental. The nighttime lights in the fountain almost make the plaza magical. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4558 Registered: 08-2004 |
3WC, usually I agree with you, but this time I don't. The folks who wanted to preserve the Madison-Lenox are the folks who like pre-depression "ornate" architecture (like myself). The folks who want to save Ford Auditorium are mostly those who like modern architecture (not I). But I can understand their point of view. If Ford Auditorium goes, I won't be that upset. It is currently a dinosaur, and dinosaurs aren't around long. For those who mentioned Ford Auditorium's acoustics.... you're preaching to the Choir!  Few mid 20th century buildings have acoustics that compare with early 20th century ornate performance venues. Detroit' has several spaces with absolutely world class acoustics... all by C. Howard Crane... Orchestra Hall (1919), Capitol Theatre (Detroit Opera House today, 1922) and United Artists Theatre (1928). Ford Auditorium had lousy acoustics. And on acoustics alone, I don't see a reason to keep it around. I don't quite understand why the "artform" of good acoustics sorta died after the depression. Not only Ford Auditorium, but NYC Lincoln Center has poor acoustics as well. The Metropolitan Opera House at Lincoln Center is horrible for singers with weak voices. And Lincoln Center's Avery Fisher Hall had the New York Philharmonic for over 30 years, until recently when they returned to the superior voices of Carnegie Hall. Detroit's C. Howard Crane, a genius of great acoustics said this about performing arts centers: "if they are pleasing to the eye (opulent), they will be pleasing to the ear as well". That may explain the poor acoustics of modern concert halls. | ||
Young_detroiter Member Username: Young_detroiter Post Number: 201 Registered: 08-2004 |
Because I am offset from the arteries that lead to Downtown Detroit, I cannot see the RenCen directly from my house in northwest Detroit. However, I can, ironically, see the Southfield skyline, particularly the Fifth-Third Bank Tower. I have seen the towers of the RenCen from the Utica area. (By the way, I have seen the Sears Tower well over an hour's drive outside of Downtown Chicago on regular, hazy and sometimes smoggy summer days. I am sure that it can be seen from even farther distances with clear skies.) | ||
Kslice Member Username: Kslice Post Number: 69 Registered: 04-2007 |
Hell, do anything with that building. Just dont turn it into "grassy space". Like we dont have eonough of that. I really like Hart Plaza the way it is, but whatever. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 2558 Registered: 12-2004 |
quote: Funny, I haven't seen any objections from any of those groups to demolishing Ford Auditorium - and I'm a member of those groups; not to mention that I was one of the lead plaintiffs in the Statler Hilton lawsuit. Our objections in the Madison-Lenox and Statler Hilton cases were: a) The Kilpatrick Administration ignoring the law itself; b) Inspection reports relating to the Madison-Lenox, as well as reports to the City Council and the general public, being fabricated by the City's Department of Buildings & Safety Engineering; and c) The DEGC's unwillingness to negotiate with interested and qualified developers who wanted to convert these abandoned properties into viable businesses, creating jobs & tax revenue in the process. None of these objections exist in the case of Ford Auditorium. It would be great if Ford Auditorium could be restored, but I don't see anyone fighting very hard to prevent a demolition. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 2423 Registered: 07-2004 |
Downtown remix you need a history lesson.Detroit was never built for 3million people.Detroit never had a population any where near 3 million. Fnemecek is right, it appears no one is championing the saving of Ford auditorium. And that is my point; someone should be.However midcentury is simply not appreciated in Detroit the way it should be.All over the country great victorian architecture was lost because the attitude toward it was the same as the attitude here on the forum and seemingly in the city toward midcentury architecture. In California there is a huge midcentury following. It is facetious to claim the city does not need Ford aud when the city allowed Ford aud to deteriorate the way it has.Slightly off topic but how is the Broadhead naval armory doing? Or should we let that go to shit( if it isn't already) because there is "not a need" for it. As for the acoustics I bet an acoustic engineer could make great improvements to Ford aud and with some creative thinking it could be put to some good use. | ||
Downtown_remix Member Username: Downtown_remix Post Number: 352 Registered: 03-2007 |
Citylover. In 1950 we peaked at how many residents, almost 2 mill? 2.5? the train station here rivals nyc in size an capacity we had a very advanced transit system. If the auto industry never took a dive, toyota never happened, and there were no riots, how many people would live in detroit today? Just asking maybe im wrong | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 2424 Registered: 07-2004 |
Detroit topped out at about 1.890 million in 1950 remix.As you can see this is no where near 3 million. Detroits train station may have been near the size of new yorks........except new york had more than one; penn station , grand central.....chicago as well had two large stations. Detroit had a mass transit that performed well for the time and had it been kept and evolved may have been advanced as you say_ but as it stood it was typical for the time and did not expand pass the city limits ........the street cars that is. Detroit has vast areas that should be cleared away.The almost endless decay that is Gratiot and Michigan ave and even up Woodward and Livernois........all those major arteries are clogged with non descript abandoned way beyond repair building of zero significance.........and yet there is glee for a significant structures(Ford aud) downfall.......I don't get it_ which is why I use the word pedestrian to describe the vision of some. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2672 Registered: 10-2003 |
I'm not sure I'm clear why the smaller amphitheater on the riverfront is needed. Why not expand the lawn area all the way down to the river? RE: Ford Auditorium: While I'm certainly not a huge fan of mid-20th century architecture, I think a reasonable objective assessment needs to be performed prior to a final decision. I think it would be worthwhile to contract an architect to evaluate the level of repair and restoration work necessary to restore (and upgrade) Ford Auditorium. Only when cost estimates are developed can you reasonbly discern whether or not it is worthwhile to save, relocate, or demolish. As it is now, Ford Auditorium is an underused facility in a city with much better venues in operation. This is no suitable use for prime real estate in the current condition. I applaud the effort at creating better public spaces in Detroit. It's this kind of attention to detail that will make the city a more attractive place to live and do business. | ||
Bvos Member Username: Bvos Post Number: 2198 Registered: 10-2003 |
Citylover, Not to be a nit picker, but the streetcar system in Detroit extended well past the city limits for nearly as long as the many different systems existed. Why you could take a streetcar to Farmington, Mt. Clemens, Pontiac, Ypsilanti, Ann Arbor, etc. all from Detroit. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2673 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: You're thinking of the interurbans. The DSR didn't leave the city limits. | ||
Busterwmu Member Username: Busterwmu Post Number: 395 Registered: 09-2004 |
Chicago actually had 6 large Railroad terminals in it's heyday: Union, Northwestern, Central, Grand Central, LaSalle, and Dearborn. Detroit had three back in the day: Brush St. (GTW), Fort St. (PRR, PM/C&O, and Wabash/N&W), and good ol' MC (NYC and some B&O). I have always head the absolute peak of Detroit's population was estimated to be in 1953 or 1954, about 1.9 million people. | ||
Erikd Member Username: Erikd Post Number: 866 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: I am a strong supporter of historical preservation and rehabbing old buildings, but I won't be complaining if Ford Auditorium is demolished to make way for expanded and improved Hart Plaza. I am not a big fan of mid-century architecture, but I would never advocate demolishing a building simply because I don't like the style. The lack of support for Ford Auditorium by the preservation community really says it all. I think the overall attitude towards Ford Auditorium is that it was poorly designed, and should never have been built in the first place. I can't think of any valid reason to save Ford Auditorium. It was a mistake when it was built, and it would be an even greater mistake to allow it to sit unused and diminish the full potential of Hart Plaza. Detroit has an amazing stock of live performance venues, and Ford Auditorium is simply inferior to the other venues in almost every respect. Ford Auditorium failed to measure up to other Detroit performance venues in terms of sound quality and architecture, but the biggest failure of Ford Auditorium has to be the terrible site plan, which resulted in a sub-par venue that is totally cut off from the rest of downtown. The best live performance venues in Detroit, such as the Fisher Theater, Orchestra Hall, Music Hall, The Fox Theater, the State Theater, and the Opera House, were all designed to be part of a cohesive urban neighborhood, surrounded with bars, restaurants, other entertainment venues, etc. Like many mid-century developments, Ford Auditorium was designed to be the antithesis of the existing early-century building style that was prominent in Detroit. The prevailing mindset of these mid-century developers was that anything old was just an antiquated product that was designed by people from a far less technologically advanced era. As a result of this mid-century mindset, Ford Auditorium was designed without any of the ornate detailing found in earlier venues, it was built with a large setback from the street with a long driveway, bordered with large open spaces on either side, and totally cut off from the rest of downtown. Over the last few decades, we have started to appreciate the genius of our pre-WW2 planning, and we are realizing the fatal flaws in our mid-century developments. Ford Auditorium is a great example of the failures of mid-century American urban planning and building design. The DSO proved the failure of Ford Auditorium when they chose to move to Orchestra Hall, and it is about time for the city to demolish that failure to make way for a much improved riverfront. | ||
Mind_field Member Username: Mind_field Post Number: 725 Registered: 10-2003 |
^agree with Erikd. OUr riverfront is quickly becoming a WORLD CLASS asset to our city, and now that it is realizing it's full potential, we should tear down that fugly shit (ford auditorium). On a side note, Hart Plaza does NOT need more grass. It is the large event gathering spot for the city, and concrete pavers work best for it's intended usage. The grass will just become trampled and ragged looking. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 2427 Registered: 07-2004 |
It is an important architectural style that permeated everything; cars airplanes, homes, businesses..........I hate to keep repeating something unless it fits and in this case it fits.....your thinking is pedestrian erikd. You are a strong supporter of preservation_ unless you don't like the way it looks, then not so much_ yeah man what a champion of historic preservation you are.........spare me. Eevryone of those places aside from the Fisher you mentioned all benefited from a few people seeing their potential.Most(people) had the attitude you have toward Ford auditorium. They personally did not like the bdgs so they justified their demolition.And you can be sure developers and pie in the sky hucksters all had gran plans for where th Music hall still stands and where Orchestra hall sits............until some creative people with vision saved those bldgs. I asked this before: Why the glee over the destruction of a representative piece of architecture? Why not stomp your feet about all the (thousands) nondescript bldgs that are a danger to the neighboroods they exist in............and lastly how many of you ever attended an event at Ford aud. | ||
Downtown_remix Member Username: Downtown_remix Post Number: 357 Registered: 03-2007 |
Every outta-towner ive ever toured downtown all said the same thing about hart plaza. From a distance they say" Wow a park, how cool lets check it out. !!Once we get to hartplaza, they say theres something missing. Kudos to the designer, but a sub-terrannian eatery? yuk. The thought of eating food prepared in "THE THUNDERDOME" is a total turn off, unless your superman or a caveman. Detroit needs everything to be as inviting as possible. Ren Cen spent 500,000,000 to fix this without changing the intention of the artist who designed it. Same with Ford theater. Far away from jefferson, It seemed to have been design to keep foot traffic(undesireables) away from the exclusive members only front. No restaurant on the ground floor or even in Har-less plaza , no different then those berms that use to block Ren Cen from missles, I mean people.lol.. .ITS A NEW DAY IN DETROIT, FOR THE WAR IS NOW OVER. THE DUST HAS CLEARED AND INVESTERS WANNA FIX HER UP. | ||
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo Post Number: 225 Registered: 12-2006 |
I can't see why people are so obsessed with keeping the grass out of Hart Plaza. To me, Hart Plaza is a very cold place with the all the concrete about. An urban park works best when there is some greenery to contrast all the concrete, glass, and steel of the surrounding buildings. The concrete in Hart Plaza, to my eyes, blends into the rest of the building and can be a very depressing place (especially on dreary, overcast days). I am very excited about the prospects of these changes and I look forward to downtown having another "new" gem to cherish and be proud of. | ||
Ramcharger Member Username: Ramcharger Post Number: 322 Registered: 05-2006 |
quote: quote: Hart Plaza is not a park, it is a plaza. If you don't know what that means, look it up! | ||
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo Post Number: 229 Registered: 12-2006 |
I don't care what name it is! It is a large public space that looks completely sterile and uninviting 99.9% of the time. Look THAT up! | ||
Ramcharger Member Username: Ramcharger Post Number: 323 Registered: 05-2006 |
It has nothing to do with the name. It has to do with its function. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T own_square | ||
Downtown_remix Member Username: Downtown_remix Post Number: 358 Registered: 03-2007 |
lolololol | ||
Southen Member Username: Southen Post Number: 191 Registered: 08-2006 |
Ram youre being unnecessarily pedantic. Hart Plaza is an urban park. Most of the people on here believe it is and if you read the article its mentioned many times as an urban park. Plaza - noun - a public square or open space in a city or town. That does sound like a park at all..... | ||
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo Post Number: 231 Registered: 12-2006 |
So. What does that have to do with the fact that it is a cold, sterile place that would benefit from grass and other greenery? | ||
Ramcharger Member Username: Ramcharger Post Number: 324 Registered: 05-2006 |
Hart Plaza, despite what was written in "the article", was designed to be Detroit's town square. quote: | ||
Southen Member Username: Southen Post Number: 192 Registered: 08-2006 |
You forgot to mention what else it said about town squares. And by that I mean they are centrally located, and often surrounded by businesses and shops. Campus Martius tends to be Detroits town square and has been marketed as such. Hart Plaza is an urban park with a lot of concrete that is surrounded by elements that dont create a lot of foot traffic on non-event days. Grant and Millenium Parks in Chicago fill the same needs that Hart Plaza does for Detroit, but people dont call them plazas or town squares. HP is a park that doubles as Detroit's large gathering space. | ||
Oliverdouglas Member Username: Oliverdouglas Post Number: 95 Registered: 02-2006 |
As for naming rights, what a shame if for a few bucks, we neglect the memory of a truly great man, the "Conscience of the Senate", Phil Hart. | ||
Ramcharger Member Username: Ramcharger Post Number: 326 Registered: 05-2006 |
Now who is defining things too narrowly? The intersection of Jefferson and Woodward Avenues is still a central location and it’s across the street from city hall. Moreover, with the Riverwalk finally coming together I suspect Hart Plaza will enjoy increased popularity. Central to this discussion however is that what many of you are advocating is changing the very nature and function of Hart Plaza as it was envisioned by its’ designers. This is a valid position. It is just one with which I disagree. (Message edited by Ramcharger on June 18, 2007) | ||
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo Post Number: 233 Registered: 12-2006 |
WIll the function really change? It can still be a gathering place if there is sod instead of concrete. I don't see how this would really change the function of the space one bit. | ||
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 3893 Registered: 10-2003 |
I like it. In all due respect to Ford Auditorium and in agreement with it architectural merits, it is the true mistake on the Lake due to its unfortunate location. It is impediment to traffic flow a gloomy vista blocker. If there were a way to move it and save it, ala the Gem, I would be all for it. But it isn't and its acknowledge acoustic inferiority is the final nail into, what the guy form Praxahu called, a coffin. Sometime we need to admit a mistake, take the hit and move on. My only druthers is that I would like to see green space behind the stage and the 'overlook'. I also would hope the pyramid stage would be filled. It is too gloomy and would work better on a level lawn. I am also curious if they are going to treat the roadway that passes through there now and how it will be treated. Completely tunneled? | ||
Rb336 Member Username: Rb336 Post Number: 152 Registered: 02-2007 |
Millenium Park Beats the parking lot that used to be there, but it is borrrrrrrriiiiiiiiing that pavillion -- that oh gee you can look at the sky from under a stainless steel donut -- that column thing that video fountain. sorry -- Hart Plaza wins as is | ||
Southen Member Username: Southen Post Number: 193 Registered: 08-2006 |
Are you serious Rb336? Millenium Park is boring? | ||
Rb336 Member Username: Rb336 Post Number: 153 Registered: 02-2007 |
Very. there is nothing there that I find aesthetically pleasing at all, or even interesting. Not as bad as the tumor growing out of soldier field, but... | ||
Downtown_remix Member Username: Downtown_remix Post Number: 359 Registered: 03-2007 |
I personally can't wait to see a grassy section surrounded by pretty flowers at Hart Plaza. I can imagine flying a kite with the kids, having a picnic during lunch break, having a bagel an latte at the hart plaza cafe, having dinner at the new restaurant looking over the fountain. Lets wake this place up. i would like to see it used 7 days a week. the foot traffic going towards the riverwalk, the cafe, the restaurant, or to the flower garden, grassy section will make it a smaller square, but more user friendly. DOWNTOWN-REMIX THAT SHIT..... | ||
Rb336 Member Username: Rb336 Post Number: 154 Registered: 02-2007 |
I do like the added green. love the knock-down-ford-auditorium too (god-awful acoustics. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4573 Registered: 08-2004 |
So then in the future we should rename it Hart Park? | ||
Mdoyle Member Username: Mdoyle Post Number: 111 Registered: 10-2006 |
Rb336: The big difference between Millennium Park, even though it's not aesthetically pleasing is that is a public meeting place and its very welcoming. I dont find Hart plaza welcoming and in fact its quite hot and desolate on a summer day. I was at Millennium Park few weeks ago and those big video faces that spew water flood the plaza. Its just loaded with kids running and splashing. Photos: http://www.gallagher.com/photo s/2004/Chicago_Millennium_Park /Millennium_Park_Fountain3.jpg http://www.gallagher.com/photo s/2004/Chicago_Millennium_Park /plaza.jpg http://www.gallagher.com/photo s/2004/Chicago_Millennium_Park /cloud_gate.jpg http://www.gallagher.com/photo s/2004/Chicago_Millennium_Park /pavillion.jpg | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 2559 Registered: 12-2004 |
quote: CL - I simply remind you that you are someone. The efforts to save the Book-Cadillac and to prevent the sale of Rouge Park all started with one person. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 2428 Registered: 07-2004 |
Acknowledged Fnemecek...........Judt curious of all of you that claim Ford aud has such terrible acoustics how many concerts have you attended there? I asked it up the thread a bit and got a big fat zero.So how about it, all you visionaries of creativity what show and how many have yo attended at Ford aud? I attended several concerts there.Rock and fusion stuff so the amplification overwhelmed any acoustics that might have or not have existed.Frankly I get the feeling many of you never attended a concert there so you just ape what others tell you. Btw the DSO did record at Ford aud and called it home for thirty years. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4582 Registered: 08-2004 |
Agreed Citylover... But unlike rock concerts, a symphony orchestra uses no amplification (ditto for true Opera). Back in the 1980's DSO conductor Antal Dorati did his recordings in the United Artists Theatre (another C. Howard Crane acoustic marvel), which although empty (and no electricity... they used generators for lighting and heat) was still preferable to recording at Ford Auditorium. I too wish they could preserve the building for some use, but I just don't know what... | ||
Bits Member Username: Bits Post Number: 8 Registered: 02-2005 |
While planning to update the civic center is a good idea, it should be done very thoughtfully with full consideration of what is there. The civic center masterplan that many of you so easily dismiss was designed by Eero Saarinen for the 1950 Detroit masterplan. Saarinens plan included Cobo Hall, the park (Hart Plaza) later designed by Isamu Noguchi, Ford Auditoreum, the uaw building, and the city council building across Jefferson. His father Eliel Saarinen had worked on the civic center plans since 1922, but died in 1948. Eero Saarinen went on to design the GM Tech center, St Louis Arch, TWA terminal in NY, Dulles Airport, U of M North Campus plan, John Deere, CBS, IBM headquarters, buildings at many colleges including Yale, and MIT, and is easily one of the greatest 20th century architects, as well as the most significant Detroit Architect. Isamu Noguchi designed Hart Plaza in accordance with Saarinens plan. The Ford auditoreum was meant to be the object building on the water, (much like Frank Gehry's Guggenheim in Bilbao today) Coincidentally, Bilbao's masterplan was designed by Cesar Pelli who worked for Eero Saarinen back in the 50's. 50 years ago, those pre-depression buildings everyone so loves today couldn't be covered up or demolished fast enough. What will we be saying 50 years from now? Noguchi was easily one of the best 20th century artists and Detroit is one of a few cities with an intact plaza he designed. I have seen the models for Hart Plaza at the Noguchi museum in NY and my guess is it was never fully realized by Smith Hynchman Grills who were the architects of record. | ||
Michigansheik Member Username: Michigansheik Post Number: 209 Registered: 09-2005 |
new condo owners probably don't want to hear every event at chene so it will have to move to make way for more condos. since ford auditorium isn't used and is not ideal as an auditorium anyway, bring on the new amphitheatre at hart plaza! watch out DTE music theatre! | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4584 Registered: 08-2004 |
Well I don't know... the DTE theatre holds over 11,000 (not sure if that counts lawn). And the proposed Hart Plaza theatre shows 3,000 seats with another 5,000 on the lawn. In that kind of scenario, the 11,000 wins over 8,000 any day. After all performers seem to care more about the $$$ than they do the riverfront location of Hart Plaza over the DTE Theatre remote location. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 3006 Registered: 02-2005 |
With the FA, just look at it this way: are there people lining up to use it now? Has there been any interest in it over the last 10 years? Is its design something that is almost universally agreed-upon as being important (i.e. Statler or Madison-Lenox or a mansion in Brush Park), or are views on this varied and controversial? Does the design make use of the highest quality materials and quality craftsmanship (i.e. the Statler or Madison-Lenox or a historic mansion)? Most importantly--since no one clearly wants to see music or a show there-- can there be any adaptive re-use of a place with that sort of design and that sort of location? A realistic person will come to the conclusion that the FA is unusable and not important enough to keep around from a historic preservation standpoint. Let's put the space it occupies into productive use, and remove this view-blocking (as Lowell correctly pointed out) blight. I agree with the Sheik, Chene Park, as neat as it is, just doesn't fit with the new approach to the east riverfront. Someone way up on this thread criticized me for wanting to get rid of this riverfront parkland. Hello! Did we not just have a huge riverwalk opened, and a massive riverfront park (Richard Park) redeveloped? Let's squeeze tax $$ and investment $$ out of this site, and consolidate the city-owned venues to main riverfront square. | ||
Warrenite84 Member Username: Warrenite84 Post Number: 121 Registered: 01-2007 |
I think refreshing Hart plaza is a great idea. It is supposed to satisfy the needs of TODAY'S populace. I would like to see the black marble front of Ford Auditorium reused in a public area. How about the future Quicken Loans People Mover Station? | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 2258 Registered: 07-2004 |
I agree that Hart Plaza is a plaza or public square and not an urban park. There are plenty of areas in Hart Plaza that have grass (just look at an aerial view and you will see plenty of grassy and tree laden areas). More grass will just interfere with the traffic flow during large events like the Jazzfest. The only area that I can truly see additional grass working is if you place grass around the fountain in that sunken area around the fountain, and have a few walkways in between the grass for folks who want to get a soaking by the fountain. Putting grass in too many places will block the natural walkways? (Message edited by royce on June 19, 2007) | ||
Ramcharger Member Username: Ramcharger Post Number: 328 Registered: 05-2006 |
As nice as the Riverwalk is, it is basically a landscaped sidewalk. It is when it opens on to the parks and plazas along its’ length that it really becomes this wonderful recreational resource. Coleman Young worked long and hard to carve Mt. Elliott, St. Aubin and Chene parks out of what was then a true post-industrial wasteland. Selling the land to developers, just 25 years later (Chene Park looks to the future as it celebrates 25 years), makes no sense at all. There is plenty of land available to develop between Jefferson Ave. and Atwater St. Riverfront land should remain public. (Message edited by Ramcharger on June 19, 2007) | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 3007 Registered: 02-2005 |
C'mon, Chene Park is a moat and a theatre. Not exactly a park in the truest sense. You have St. Aubin/Tricentennial. You have the space at the base of Mt. Elliot. You have Richard park, and public access to the water preserved along the entire length of the waterfront. This is more than enough. |
