  Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl Post Number: 242 Registered: 08-2007 |
English, Thanks for the insightful response. "Finally, you can't force diversity. Online, as in real life, people go where they're most comfortable. And that just doesn't go for "white people" -- that goes for everyone." I understand that we can't force diversity, and to VA, I don't think we should recruit forumers based on some sort of racial quota lest it become like a Langston Hughes short story out of The Ways of White Folks, but it saddens me that we have splintered online groups when we should all be working together toward revitalizing the city somewhere whether virtually or face to face. I grew up in the city during the 70's; my black friends and I first were curious about our differences then all we lived to do was play dress up and braid each other's hair; we were just girls, no skin tone existed. Never have I seen things more voluntarily separate than now; I respect that people want to be "comfortable" and cling to what they know, but I think it's a very unhealthy thing both for individuals and society. | ||
Lefty2 Member Username: Lefty2 Post Number: 70 Registered: 07-2007 |
on this site are coming from white folks. Am I wrong? -- probably true. "the city is predominately black." --- true I as well would like to read unabashed black perspective as to the goings on in the big D. My dad once said when I was young, worry about yourself, then the rest will fall in place. I took this to mean, mind your own business do what you need to do to live and grow and life will take its course. | ||
Vetalalumni Member Username: Vetalalumni Post Number: 636 Registered: 05-2007 |
Doubtful that a comprehensive understanding of people can be gained on an internet forum. One way to start the process of understanding others is to spend time with each other. Talking and listening, we can begin to appreciate and understand each other more fully. | ||
Jenniferl Member Username: Jenniferl Post Number: 393 Registered: 03-2004 |
Why aren't there more black Detroiters on this forum? One reason may be that there aren't as many black Detroiters on the Internet in general. This is a city full of poor people-- most of whom are also black-- and if you're struggling to keep a roof over your head you're probably not going to have enough $$$ to pay for a computer and Internet access. Of course, you can go on the Net for free at libraries and such, but that's rather inconvenient. Detroit is also a city with a 40-something percent adult illiteracy rate. Again, a lot of these folks are black. It's hard to post on any Internet forum if you can't read or write very well. I even know some middle-class white people who don't like to post on the Net because they have difficulty with spelling and are afraid other posters will make fun of them. | ||
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl Post Number: 244 Registered: 08-2007 |
Jenniferl, I thought of this too, but read the post by English; it's telling in several ways. The library is usually busy with people playing games or in chat rooms; no one's worrying about spelling when chatting. | ||
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 4094 Registered: 10-2003 |
The scope of this forum is simple: to discuss all things Detroit - Detroit meaning the entire international family of communities that make up "Detroit". From voluntary data gathered at registration and from self revelatory posts where forumers have revealed their location, we have representatives of every community on both sides of the Straits [Le Detroit]. Additionally there are many members of the "Detroit Diaspora" from every major US city and many Canadian and international communities who bring very valuable outside perspectives. The City of Detroit and its great challenges is a part of this discussion and IMO the most important. But is is also just a part of the greater metropolis, less than 20% of its population, so the discussion is by no means limited to it. Discussion of the CofD is meaningless without the context of the rest of the metropolis. We're all in this together, like it or not. Is the make-up of this forum demographically representative of that greater picture? We will never know as it is each person's prerogative as to how much he or she wishes to reveal. Genderwise, it is not, being 60-40 male. In post volume I am sure that would spread further. I wish that were more balanced, but what is is what is. All are invited and anyone who agrees to the conditions of participation is welcome to join and post their views. This isn't Harvard, everyone gets admitted, so don't expect doctoral dissertations on every post.  But in its totality I will guarantee you that you will be richly reward with knowledge as I have been. While there are many differences in opinion, education, skill sets, age, ethnicity, nationality and more, the one constant thread that has run through all these years is that just about everyone who posts here cares a lot about our whole Detroit and wants it to do well. Personally, this forum has given and continues to give me a great education on Detroit and I thank you all collectively for that. Even if I don't always agree with everyone, I greatly respect the diversity of views that is shared up in here and so enriches the discussions. | ||
Jrvass Member Username: Jrvass Post Number: 197 Registered: 01-2007 |
I am a white suburbanite. I have black Detroiter friends. I have black suburbanite friends. I even have white Detroiter friends. The problem is not black or white. The problem is right or wrong. Good vs. Bad. Moral choices vs. Immoral choices. When I hear a citizen like William Cosby, Phd., say it is our responsibility to stop committing crimes against each other. I want to cheer! I feel the same way when I read or hear Thomas Sowell or Walter Williams. (Both, highly praised, black economists. Students of Milton Friedman... not John Maynard Keynes!) When John Conyers (D-Detroit) prattles on about "reparations for slavery", I want to bitch-slap him. Why should he think he has the right to impose a tax on me, to subsidize a race of people, when my ancestors fought and died in a war to end the slavery that he wants reparations for? It's not black or white. It is moral/immoral; right/wrong. Soapbox mode off. | ||
Kaptansolo Member Username: Kaptansolo Post Number: 180 Registered: 07-2007 |
Jrvass check this out... The biggest problem with black people getting pissed off and telling it like it is as far as responsibility goes is white people have a bad habit of jumping in and agreeing. Please let me explain. What Cosby said was correct. What Conyers said is a response to an unequal system today (I think). White people constantly have said the same things that Cosby was saying for years. They have stated that more or less everybody should get a job and get with the program. The problem with it is only one aspect. The system is unequal. A lot of times white people forget that there are "gentleman" agreements that exist and there are still very active "good ole boy" networks. When I look at the construction industry here in New York and I see these white non-union contractors doing business in the city and you look at their employees and you see nothing but color. You think it is no big deal....at first. Until you realize that the white guys are not going to work for the wages that this white man is paying. Most of the white guys who are only workers/employees in the construction industry in NYC are in the union. That is not a coincidence. White guys hiring white guys. When one of them breaks away and gets his license and he is new and smalltime the only workers he can get are those of color(I say of color because that includes blacks, Africans, Mexicans, Hipanics, Guyanese Indians and Jamaicans) but virtually no white guys. Guess how much money the union contractors pay? Guess who has the benefits? Guess who can afford to buy a home and qualify for a loan? Guess who cannot? Guess who is uninsured? Guess who has no dental? They are all working hard everyday. White people already know that this "difference" exists. Black folks arguing with each other about the "get with program" concept usually comes from the one or two blacks that made it out of the ghetto and they now think that because they made it that the country is really an equal place of opportunity. The post that started this one was more or less about a reverse racism incident. Let me say for the record. Even the best "white folk" get nervous when they are just flat out outnumbered. Even if no one is bothering them. This spills over into the workforce. White people will voluntarily share only what they are forced to share. You ought to hear how employers will let you know that you really do not have any course of action because there are no quotas that have to met in NYC. A decision to allow you to have a good job is basically like a person holding your life in their hands. They can say you are hired and your life can change tomorrow. You can get out of debt, build credit and start to live. They can say you are not hired and you can get another job...in fact you can get many of them...but you will not be getting out debt, building credit or anything else even remotely close to being "American". White People know this...that is why they reserve the jobs for their own. When I say their own, I mean their family and close friends. They know you need money to get ahead. There are no illusions in the white community about how much money you need to make it. A lot of times when white people jump in and say the samething as Cosby...the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" kind of thing I am reminded of "Uncle Tom's Cabin" where a slave owner's wife felt that black people did not need the same things that whites needed to be happy. That black families could be torn apart and it would not matter that much because of an inability to "love" the way white people love their own children. White people will sit right there while they are making $80,000 to $100,000 on their non-degree requiring, union, blue collar job and tell others that they should be able to make it off what little they are making. Knowing good and damn well they would not even consider a job paying such low pay. I stated in another post the general attitude Americans now have toward Mexican Workers and the $10 an hour mentality. The idea that it is their(Mexicans) culture to live 6 in a one bedroom apartment is absurd. Things that no white man would even accidentally dream about doing. I have heard people sit and say when someone offers them low pay for something..., "do I look like a Mexican to you?" When a Black man says you need to get with the program and get it together...I only ask with what job are you talking about? Let me know where this high paying blue collar job is so I can let others know. When a white man says the same thing it is insulting because I know he already knows the deal. He knows that two might get hired but the rest of them can forget about it. I do not disagree with moral and immoral choices and right vs. wrong...but like the white community needs those high paying jobs that they have to maintain their status and lifestyle...so do black people. I am tired of people talking about the city government or the neighborhoods are run down like they do not know that Detroit, Michigan WAS the automotive capital of the world. When car sales slumped, Detroit got a "cold". Detroit, unlike San Francisco, Chicago, New York or Los Angeles was not a sophisticated metropolis...it was a place where if you did not have a lot of connections, you could still get ahead with a lot of overtime on an assembly line. The "car" has left the building and that is where the vast majority of your inner city problems come from in Detroit. It does not matter who you elect as Mayor if he has no tax base to work with. Look at Flint and GM. Like Schenectady, NY and GE. Detroit needs those jobs again man. I am not saying that people cannot pick up the trash in their yard and no there do not need to be all of these kids with babies...but even if you eliminated those problems...there is still no money!!!!!!!! My dad worked in the Auto Industry and my mother worked in a Central Office for the phone company and I can tell you there was so much Blue Cross and Blue Shield in our house...we could have taken our dog to a plastic surgeon if needed. That is not the case today and I am tired of people acting like that is no big deal. There will always a be a bad element in any city. If the jobs were available quite a few would be working and being responsible adults. If you see them struggling with lawn care...just realize that although cutting the grass on Saturday was a thing that went on in your household like clockwork, the person in question may have never lived in a home that was owned by their parents and maybe they just do not know how to do certain things. Maybe they are not familiar with that type of responsibility because they never saw it demonstrated in their family. I do not want to make excuses....but I am tired of everybody acting the lack of good job is like some fly that you can shoo away by being positive and saying, "everything will be ok"....it will not be ok!!....and white people know this better than anybody... (Message edited by Kaptansolo on September 02, 2007) (Message edited by Kaptansolo on September 02, 2007) | ||
Jrvass Member Username: Jrvass Post Number: 201 Registered: 01-2007 |
Kaptansolo, You sound like you are right and moral. I can't disagree with anything you say, with the exception of entrepenuerial spirit. You fail to mention that. I can't think of the number of things invented by black people. Or procedures invented by black doctors. But don't think for a minute that "white people" are trying to keep the "black people", "down". That's crap. I want to hire the most able person for a job. You would to as a business owner. | ||
Pam Member Username: Pam Post Number: 2487 Registered: 11-2005 |
quote: Really? Feels more like 80% male. | ||
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl Post Number: 246 Registered: 08-2007 |
I second that one, Pam! Kaptansolo, thanks for that kick in the ass. "The system is unequal. A lot of times white people forget that there are "gentleman" agreements that exist and there are still very active "good ole boy" networks." True. Women experience this too; I'm in a female dominated profession, and still most of the upper tier management or leadership positions are held by men. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1525 Registered: 04-2006 |
I know plenty of black Detroiters online. I know of several who lurk here but don't post (to my knowledge). I think all of them have said something at one time or another about the racist overtones of a lot of the threads from this forum. The truth is, they're right. There are a lot of racist overtones and then you get a lot of non-people of color telling you that you are taking it to personal. How can you take something too personal that basically defines your life experience? | ||
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl Post Number: 247 Registered: 08-2007 |
Ihearthed, I wholeheartedly agree. English eloquently summed up the black experience out here: "There are black members. We come and we go. Going by conversations I've had with other black folks whom I've met through DetroitYES, coming and going is helpful. When the majority of the residents of Detroit are talked about as if they're aliens and not human beings..." | ||
Vetalalumni Member Username: Vetalalumni Post Number: 644 Registered: 05-2007 |
I respectfully disagree with the statement by Digitalvision, "... there are two Detroits, a white and a black one". That statement and way of thinking is separatist and divisive in nature and may cause people to make choices primarily based upon race and not the individual. The individual is not empowered, as their free will is subjected to groupthink. (Message edited by vetalalumni on September 02, 2007) | ||
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 4096 Registered: 10-2003 |
Like the rest of society now, there isn't much in terms of openly blatant racist remarks made here, but there is still occasional 'codespeak'. "People are moving back into the city!", cited above by English, is an example of this. Sometimes this is naive, someone enthusing about a population countertrend never realizing they are using the language of their parents, "The people". To my ears that rings like a loud bell and makes me wince, but to others it passes unheard. Such are our sensitivities. It is the nature of forums that hot button threads get more attention than the far more numerous quiet solid ones and some will tend to characterize the entire discussion by them. Ever so often we hear a claim like, "Why is it that every thread ends up in stupid arguments." or "Why is it that every thread turns to race." To that I have always issued this challenge. Get out pencil and paper, go through ~every~ current thread in the topic list and tell us exactly how many do. The sound of crickets always follows because the percentage is always miniscule. The rest are informative, entertaining and thoughtful. There is always far more good will than ill will. Yet we never hear the complaint, "Why is it that every thread turns to pleasant helpful discourse?" We have entered a new age of discourse that barely existed ten years ago and was non-existent 20 year ago, other than among a few university networks so we are its first generation. Unlike talk radio or talking head cable shows, the guests invite themselves on. Nobody can shout over their comments and their comments are not screened before they make them. Like a New England style town hall meeting everybody, from the naive to the informed, gets to speak in turn. As a result, I have seen many grow. After all even the informed were once naive. | ||
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl Post Number: 248 Registered: 08-2007 |
Yet we never hear the complaint, "Why is it that every thread turns to pleasant helpful discourse?" True, Lowell. I have seen disagreements (mine included) on the forum evolve into understanding. Racial issues, I think, given the history of our city, country even, are always going to be hot buttons. I wish we could just have intelligent, reasoned discourse without the race-baiting. I appreciate we are all entitled to opinions, but the blatant generalizations some make are hurtful and don't help in seeing the city prosper. They merely reflect that racism really is a profound ignorance of cultures. I would hope that through the forum, people could simply respect one another as human. I think Vetal expressed it well, though, when he said: Talking and listening, we can begin to appreciate and understand each other more fully. Online dialog is a start, but we need to be living together in culturally mixed communities for this to even be possible. BTW, funny you mentioned the grange or town hall; I was wondering why they all but disappeared. Sad. | ||
Ravine Member Username: Ravine Post Number: 1262 Registered: 01-2006 |
Lowell's post was not written in a defensive manner, but it does register as a well-thought-out defense of DetroitYes, "his baby." Having put so much energy into the creation, and maintenance, of this forum, it must be painful, for Lowell, to see it made out to be little more than a steaming cauldron of racism, classism, sexism, party-politics-based baiting, and all manner of division, contempt, and outright hatred. The truth is that when people wail, as quoted by Lowell, "Why is it that every thread must turn to...," they are burdened by that impression because of their own tendencies to gravitate toward threads which feature the most controversy, polarization, and cage-rattling. If you enjoy hanging out in barns, complaining about how bad the horse manure smells serves only to make you appear foolish. Similarly, one may not always notice their own body odor, but if someone else is emitting even so much as a mild funk, it strikes one's nose in most alarming fashion. The next time Qweek posts some FYI about celestial concerns, I'm gonna hop on that thread and bawl, "Why is it that so many threads turn out to be about astronomical issues??!!" | ||
English Member Username: English Post Number: 569 Registered: 10-2003 |
Lowell, I just want to say that you're an excellent person and a real Detroit booster. You really do welcome multiple POVs and are rarely partisan, which is very rare for a webmaster in any context, on any site. My observations were not directed not at you, but at some forumers who have been a little outrageous in the past (many of whom don't post here anymore anyway). The forum's actually a lot nicer lately, in my opinion. All of us, no matter what our background, really appreciate everything that you do in providing this community with your $ and time. | ||
Kaptansolo Member Username: Kaptansolo Post Number: 181 Registered: 07-2007 |
Let me say this to respond to Jrvass response to my opinions... I do not think for one minute that "black" people are that important to anyone that a group of people is sitting around 24 hours a day trying to come up with ways to hold them back. Understand what I mean when I say "that" important. I think generally people don't care that much. If their life is ok and they are happy...I do not think most of the subtle racism that goes on is intentional. To a great degree I think it is just simple survival. If my son needs a job, I am not going to hire you over him until he shows me that he really does not want the job. As Oakmangirl mentioned...The "top" is still dominated by MEN and that is no accident either. Here is where I see a problem for women. When women get fed up with the sexism and venture out on their own in a business...a lot of times, they have to really fight just to be taken seriously in the business world even when they know what they are doing. Products and services do speak for themselves but anyone who can not see that men have some serious issues with competition from women is either blind or in denial. If they decide to have a baby, that detracts. If they are married, we wonder what type of husband they are married to...not in the general sense of being "nosy", but more like what kind of man could deal with the fact that his wife is always working late? We do not like to talk about this...but these are those things that are not politically correct to bring up. It does not mean that it does not exist and it does not effect a woman doing business. I am just being realistic here...I am guilty of it myself...and I am wrong. What you said sort of supports my theories totally Jrvass. about the "entrepenuerial spirit". We need to be careful with words like "spirit"...this implies that or I should say gives credence to something that does not really exist. Business is about MONEY! The only people who are "hopeless entrepenuerials" are those who go into business for the chief reason that they want to be their own boss. This is not the right reason to go into business and a lot of black people have made this error. They wind up failing because no real research was done to find out what the community that they are servicing or selling to really needs. As far your context is concerned(I think I have this right)...You are saying that you want to hire the best man for the job??? This used to be true and you were able to hire someone who may have had a family and was paying a mortgage because you were able to pay livable wages. You know...Wages where a person would not have to have 8 relatives move in just to be able to pay one's rent. You know, the kind of wages where a person could actually pay his debts off and re-establish himself and actually put his phone in his name. You do what I am talking about here...right??? You know where he could actually pay and keep his child support up to date while being married to his second wife and not have her feeling like she is losing out because of his child support payments. My mother lives in the burbs of Detroit today and she recently had a garage built. The contractors who came to do the estimates were two white guys and one hispanic. She wound up going with the one of the white contractors and she said she was surprised when the workforce showed to begin they were all Mexicans and only two spoke english. What I am trying to point out here today is the system is so screwed up now that even white guys who have started small businesses can only hire minorities in many cases because white guys are not going to work for those wages that will not give them any dignity. You know...the kind of wages where you can see your friends at a bar and say, "Hey Joe, what are ya drinkin'...put it on my tab". That is good ole american living and any of those people who you are paying those substandard wages cannot put anything on a tab because they simply do not make enough money to have one. This also applies to those in the inner city who have gotten so wrapped up in church and they think that the lord will work it all out. White people and shrewd business people love that mentality because they know they can pay these positive thinking, spiritually matured people any kind of wages because "money is not everything and it really does not matter". "If you focus on God everything will work out". There are very few whites who think like this because they know better. ...and I am getting off track here. I think you might try to hire the best for the job Jrvass...but you also hire who you can afford and that is usually not American White guys. (Message edited by Kaptansolo on September 02, 2007) (Message edited by Kaptansolo on September 02, 2007) | ||
Ravine Member Username: Ravine Post Number: 1263 Registered: 01-2006 |
Kap, that was a thought-provoking and shrewd post. Well said. | ||
Vetalalumni Member Username: Vetalalumni Post Number: 653 Registered: 05-2007 |
Wasn't there a Detroit television show during the 70s and maybe the 80s that was called something like "Black Perspective on Detroit"? | ||
English Member Username: English Post Number: 570 Registered: 10-2003 |
Great points, Kaptansolo. I've shared my family history elsewhere -- "A Tale of Four Black Male Entrepreneurs". My great-great grandfather, my great-grandfather, my grandfather, and now my mother and uncle have very interesting stories about starting businesses. (My great-grandfather's ends with a lynching.) Either we've got 4-5 generations of awfully bad luck, or something's rotten. I'm starting to think that once I've got this PhD and earn tenure, I ought to write a book about them. Because it's not as if black people didn't try to start businesses in the century between slavery and civil rights, buy homes, and build capital... there's a hidden history that is never talked about. National Book Award winner James Loewen's "Sundown Towns" is electrifying. Michigan and metro Detroit are main players in it. Loewen expected to find a couple of incidents like Rosewood, and Tulsa OK, where African Americans were arrested, murdered, and intimidated, then driven out of town on a rail and not even allowed to drive through for many generations. Then he said he expected to find 50 incidents like this. In his research, he found thousands of towns nationwide where records show that black residents... simply... disappeared. During Reconstruction, the ex-slaves moved all over the nation, until between 1890 and 1930, things changed. Loewen got so angry about this suppressed history that he posted a list of "sundown towns" on his website: http://www.uvm.edu/~jloewen/su ndowntowns.php We're planning to bring him here to Michigan sometime this school year, so I'll be sure to let the forum know about it. He's one of the last of a great generation of white allies who have devoted their lives to social justice. There is absolutely no way that any black researcher could have uncovered what he found (sealed records in towns still hostile to blacks, oral histories from elderly residents, etc). Suffice it to say that when every generation has to start over again from scratch, then eventually despair (a natural human reaction) sets in. This explains why today's black underclass is psychologically very different than the black underclass of 100 years ago. There are just far too many examples of drive and ambition being rewarded with a swift kick in the nuts... even in 2007... and if you want to succeed, then you have to subsume some of your cultural heritage so that you're "safe" to the majority. Those apples are far too difficult for many to swallow. The story is not in what has happened between the 1960s and now. The story is not even in talking about slavery's legacy, and then fast-forwarding to the sit-ins and marches. The real key to understanding American race relations is researching what really happened between Radical Reconstruction and the 1954 Brown decision. There is so much exciting new scholarship in this area, and I hope to eventually contribute to it. | ||
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl Post Number: 250 Registered: 08-2007 |
Wow, English...this history and these stats are disturbing: "Instead, I have found more than 440 in Illinois and thousands across the United States." MI has far too many places on that list, but 440 spots in IL?!? Why so many there? Definitely plan to read that book. "There is so much exciting new scholarship in this area, and I hope to eventually contribute to it." Please share with the forum when you publish and good luck on your dissertation. Are you now ABD? | ||
Digitalvision Member Username: Digitalvision Post Number: 318 Registered: 11-2003 |
English, All I can say after reading that link is, "How can we as a country be so ignorant, even today?" | ||
Kaptansolo Member Username: Kaptansolo Post Number: 185 Registered: 07-2007 |
You know...now that I think about it. I had to inform one of my black friends in Harlem who opened a restaurant as he was proudly telling me that he was providing jobs in the community and this was part of his way of giving back...I had to ask him, "in giving back...you do mean the community(Harlem) in which you grew up? He said, "Yes". I then asked him, "how many Americans do you have employed?" The answer was none. I had to tell him to get back to reality. You are not providing any jobs to anyone Black or White or any other color where the individual could afford to live decently. You do not mean anything personal by hiring all of these black people form the Carribean...that is all you can afford. I think any business owner today should look at the fact that you are not able to really contribute to the so-called american dream with your job offers to the community. Most of the businesses I know of cannot afford to offer any type of benefits whatsoever. I am included in this group. If you are looking for a job in Michigan...there was always an easy way to tell whether you could make any money at a given place. Look in the parking lot and note the years of the vehicle in the lot. Note the condition of the vehicles too. Are they maintained? or are they falling apart? Forget the exceptions...make a general assessment and it will give you a pretty good idea what the people are making. In NYC...I hate to say it like this but...look at the workforce...if you do not see too many white guys there(and I am not talking about the newly arrived poor eastern europeans who have joined the low wage army), I am talking about good ole white boys who are not going to work for low wages even though they do not have degrees. The ones who feel like, "Hey! I'm an American and I deserve to make a decent living and be able to enjoy life." "After all, what are you working for?" If you do not see too many of them or they are the owners and everyone else working there for them is not "them". Well...you can figure it the rest out. It's bad out here today. ...and what few high paying jobs that are left in this country, the white guys have them tied up and they are not going to share them with you unless there is some quota that forces their hand. They are trying to get their families and friends in. They know what it takes to live in this country and they are not hardly fooled by proud business owners who cannot afford to pay a decent wage. It is nothing personal. This is about money. The black perspective in Detroit...no matter what it is...including economic development ideas will have to have some customers who have money to spend to make it work. My cousin owns some property out on Long Island and he thinks he is giving something back to the community. Ironically, he came from well to do parents and he was never on welfare a day in his life. All of his tenants are on section 8. He says every time he tries to accept a tenant that works for a living, they wind up falling behind in their rent. I am like...who are you or what are giving back to the community????? Working people are up a creek? Unless of course they are lucky enough to be in a strong union and have decent wages. (white people) And most of them are not looking to rent from you...not that you are a slum lord...I mean you keep your property up and maintained but you cannot believe that they are going to give their hard earned money to you and watch you live "good" as a result of their hard work. At least not too long. Plus, they are not going to live around that many people on section 8 because they look at it as a handout and they have too much pride for that. They figure you can go out and get a job and support yourself without the section 8. Where would my cousin's business be if it weren't for section 8??? ...and occasionally he has the audacity to talk about the fact that he thinks section 8 is a crutch for so many and they would probably do better if it was eliminated. Meanwhile, I do not see him making a "B" line to get any tenants who are not on section 8. It is messed up out here... By the way, my cousin is a IASTE stagehand. Strong union and making over $200,000 a year. Who even knew that stagehands made that type of money? Certainly not most inner city blacks that is for sure. Every year the New York Post does an article and puts their salaries and work duties on the front page and they lose their minds because they really do not want anyone to know. And they walk around proudly thinking that they make that type of money because they are the best in the business. They make that type of money because they have a strong union. Just try doing the same job at an off-Broadway theater and see how much money you will not make. Same job...you are still the baddest MOFO's in the business...but you will not be living where you were living while in the union. I don't care how long you stay on the job. I am saying this to say and dispel another American myth. "Work hard and the money will come". There had better be somebody fighting for you to make money because American businesses are doing everything they can to pay you nothing. I do not care if it is the NAACP or the Teamsters. It is about the money! You want Detroit to come back? Show me the money!!!!!! | ||
Ravine Member Username: Ravine Post Number: 1270 Registered: 01-2006 |
Jesus. I gotta say that I think this is a classic case of the "sometimes, the truth hurts" adage. | ||
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl Post Number: 251 Registered: 08-2007 |
Kaptansolo, You're giving us the cold, hard truth; I couldn't agree more with your assessment of Section 8 landlording. On a positive note, I remember reading of a co-op development in Chicago; everyone got a brand new, beautiful brick brownstone for purchase based on income. Residential mortgages varied, but everyone had a nice place to call home. It brought together a diverse group which made a harmonious community. It was a "planned" community, but living there was voluntary (this is for the benefit of everyone who think every little thing should happen organically). This was in response to trying to abolish the Cabrini Green's of the city for the sake of providing affordable housing, not more prison-like projects. Why can't we do this here? some info: http://www.thecha.org/transfor mplan/plan_summary.html http://findarticles.com/p/arti cles/mi_qn4155/is_20040214/ai_ n12531796 Apparently, there are some glitches, but I think Detroit could learn a lot from CHA. | ||
Vetalalumni Member Username: Vetalalumni Post Number: 658 Registered: 05-2007 |
Kaptansolo, with all due respect, I don't understand. I'm sorry, but I don't think I'm comprehending your posts after re-reading them. Maybe it is my short attention span. Plus, I have the DGP on in the background . I suspect there might be others who like me are left wondering. I want to understand, so would you please rephrase in short, concise terms. Lengthy discourse may be taking away from important and valid information. May I humbly suggest short, succinct message points? | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 2496 Registered: 02-2004 |
I've seen those houses, Oakmangirl. Anyone would want to live in them, it's pure genius. I wish we were more like Chicago, but we just aren't. | ||
Kaptansolo Member Username: Kaptansolo Post Number: 187 Registered: 07-2007 |
Ok Vetal, my post were in response to Danny's first post and Jrvass response to my post. I guess I can be a little long winded...sorry. I just see that anytime we start talking about anything pertaining to Detroit, Michigan..it seems as though white people forget that Detroit was a thriving blue collar town. Productive citizens were not working at McDonald's and buying homes. I responded to Oakmangirl's comment when she brought up the sexism that women face...I had to agree with her...I am guilty myself. Then there are the ultra conservatives who like get on here and talk about what Detroiters need to do and about how terrible the local government is that "they" elected. I'm like....LOOK! There are no more jobs here worth talking about and you have to have those in order to create a tax base to have money to operate a city. You do need some decent level of pay to give people "dignity". White people get on and overlook all of the essential things that they themselves would never even dream of doing without. I hope this clears some of it up... (Message edited by Kaptansolo on September 02, 2007) |
