 
Michigan
Member
Username: Michigan
Post Number: 1041
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 03, 2007 - 12:35 am: |    |
OG & ORF- Milwaukee has a similar program that works well. I don't see why it can't work n D |
Vetalalumni
Member
Username: Vetalalumni
Post Number: 663
Registered: 05-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 03, 2007 - 12:57 am: | |
Thanks Kaptansolo, that clears it up. The passion in your dialogue is evident.
I'm not so certain, as you are, about the intentions and motivations of people. To say it another way, I don't profess to know so precisely, the thinking and motivations of people.
So I'm in learning mode right now, reading the views of others in eager anticipation of the profound. |
Vetalalumni
Member
Username: Vetalalumni
Post Number: 665
Registered: 05-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 03, 2007 - 1:26 am: | |
During the 70s, there was a large co-op development of condominiums on the south side of 8 Mile Road near Schafer. Other than the proximity to 8 Mile Road, and having to park several hundred feet away from the doorstep, it was a nice complex. There surely must be others. |
Royce
Member
Username: Royce
Post Number: 2372
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 03, 2007 - 1:48 am: | |
What I find interesting about this forum is that when blacks on this forum like myself give "the black perspective" about issues like affirmative action, whites often complain that we blacks are constantly "whining" and "blaming white folks" for all of Detroit's or black Detroiter's ills. Never have I seen threads about Detroit's condition not break down along racial lines. Topics like the 67' riot brought out a lot finger pointing regarding who was to blame for the riot. Whites blaming blacks, and blacks blaming whites.
I was called a black militant by a forumer( who hasn't posted recently because his wife said he was getting to upset responding to folks like me). For those who have met me, I doubt that you would think that I was a black militant. However, this guy was convinced that I was because I said that whites(or people that are perceived as being white) have benefitted from racism and discrimination perpetrated on blacks by whites, period. This is a belief that I strongly stand by. The information shared by English about "Sundown Towns" only strengthens my belief.
Now, that is not to say that I have an ax to grind with white people. On the contrary, I simply believe that whites should be aware of things like "Sundown Towns" or understand the intent of affirmative action so they're not so quick to say to black folks, "Just pull yourselves up from your boot straps and you'll be successful just like us." It's never that simple of an answer when you talk about black Detroit or black America. Blacks with any understanding of history will never view things exactly the same as whites, regardless of their success. Folks like Ward Connerly and Clarence Thomas are the exceptions.
Blacks and whites can live together. Blacks and whites with the same incomes, especially higher incomes, can usually get along. However, I find that only the whites who understand what blacks have been through(the black experience) can live with blacks with a level of comfort that is not often seen in racially mixed neighborhoods. Even in the well-off neighborhoods, those whites who don't understand the "black experience" often become uncomfortable if they become the minority in the neighborhood. Often they move if more blacks move in, despite the fact that the income level of the blacks moving in is the same as theirs.
One other thing about this forum and the black perspective is that the black perspective is in the minority here. The majority of forumers are either young white 20-30 somethings who are excited about urban living or former white Detroiters who no longer live in the city but have strong memories of how great Detroit used to be. That's the make-up of this forum in a nutshell.
BTW, Vetal, for years there was a program called "For My People" which was a black produced program that talked about black issues. You may be thinking about a skit on Saturday Night Live that Tim Meadows(Ladies Man) did called "Perspectives" which parodied black shows like "For My People." One of the jokes was that this show like many of these kinds of shows was put on in the wee hours of the morning. I think the SNL show "Perspectives" was said to come on at 4:55 a.m. and last only five minutes.
(Message edited by royce on September 03, 2007) |
Kaptansolo
Member
Username: Kaptansolo
Post Number: 192
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 03, 2007 - 2:34 am: | |
"Often they move if more blacks move in, despite the fact that the income level of the blacks moving in is the same as theirs."
Royce's words above...and so well put. I see that I am not the only one who realizes there is a fear of the "africanization" of this country.
White people do feel uncomfortable when they are the minority...it just does not feel "white" anymore and they Roll Out!
Like you said, Even when the income levels and the mindset is relatively the same...they high tail it. Not all of them...but most.
I would even go as far as to say, the very high income whites really know what is going on. Because they are privy to those conversations that create some of those "Gentleman" agreements and "good ole boy" networks I was talking about earlier.
You get some of those Harvard and Oxford educated whites and they know what is going on from a much better point of view than most middle class white folks simply because they are at the top.
I wanted to say also Vetal that I agree with Digitalvision when it was said that there are two Detroits. I think that there are as well.
As Royce just pointed out...look at the demographics of the forumers here. Young Whites who are new to the BIG CITY and did not grow up in it and they are "charged" about bringing it back. These are young people who are no different than their black counterparts except...they have resources to make what they want to do happen. They are a part of white Detroit.
...and then there is the other group. Black people who only have enough resources to survive in most cases and the ones that have more do not possess enough resources to make a change by themselves.
I hate to say this, some of them have been sucked into poverty trying to revitalize something on their own. Some of them have been pulled into the abyss by those who are clueless about money and what should be done with it. Bad deals with good intentions.
Black people today I would say generally do not have more than one bullet. White guys go into ventures sometimes and lose their ass and they have resources where they may be able to bounce back.
Maybe they have family that can loan them start up capital. Maybe there was some property left to them or a business. An inheritance.
Black people shoot that bullet and if it misses it target...sometimes you never hear from that person again.
I remember when Brady Keys came to either Vetal or Gompers for Career day. One of the things that he said and I will never forget this....he said one of the biggest problems that a lot of young black men have when they try to go in business and they may even have a good idea is...they do not have any money and he said that he had to tell a few, "When you get some money together come back and talk to me." This was 1979 or 1980.
Black people as a rule do not have the resources I mentioned above that whites have and those are the things that would give them the money Mr. Keys was talking about. |
Vetalalumni
Member
Username: Vetalalumni
Post Number: 666
Registered: 05-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 03, 2007 - 2:48 am: | |
Royce, I enjoyed reading your perspective.
In starting this thread, Jjw wrote, in part "I would truly like to read about the black perspective on the future of Detroit". My emphasis is added in the quote. Happily, the posts so far have not strayed very far off topic, and civility has prevailed. I've dreaded the possibility that this particular thread would degenerate into the type of unproductive fiasco you described. When that type of situation arises, I ask my self a simple question, "what is the profit?". If there is none, I cease participation and quietly "walk away".
Regarding knowledge of Sundown Towns (ST), I'm of the opinion that whites are, on average, more aware of this injustice than blacks. Those who created and enforced the ST were white. Those who stood idly by, where white. Certainly some whites abhorred this treatment of blacks. Those who had the power to correct this wrong, and did so, were (likely) white. Maybe because they knew it was unjust, or maybe because their hand was forced by civil rights.
Lastly, "For My People" might be the show I was trying to remember. And the Tim Meadows skit is very familiar to me.
Kaptansolo, I must once again commend you for your energy and passion. To bring future back into the dialogue, please provide an outlook on the future of Detroit.
(Message edited by vetalalumni on September 03, 2007) |
Jrvass
Member
Username: Jrvass
Post Number: 203
Registered: 01-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 03, 2007 - 3:37 am: | |
I'm surprised that you can decipher the color of my skin by my written word. Had I not admitted I was white in an earlier post, would you have known? Does it matter?
Vetalalumni, Kaptansolo, Royce... you are obviously intelligent, educated, individuals. Isn't Dr. King's dream still relevant?
Something about character over skin color?
The real tragedy are the crimes happening today in the neighborhoods. Black on Black. White on White. Brother on Sister... etc.
I dunno. Maybe I'm stupid. But crime needs to stop locally first. |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 256
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 03, 2007 - 9:57 am: | |
Royce,
I think you're onto something when you bring up income; I've known of many a middle-class white person who talk poorly of lower class whites. Many white people use the labels of "white trash" or "Taylortucky" a little to frequently. In the case of racism, there's a socio-economic barrier as well. However, as English pointed out, if I read his post correctly, some black people see "acting" middle-class as selling out their heritage. Yet, white people only want to socialize, work with, or live next to people who act like them. It's a catch-22. This is why I think we should be trying mixed-income housing on a larger scale.
Kaptansolo,
"White people do feel uncomfortable when they are the minority...it just does not feel "white" anymore and they Roll Out!"
Careful here...I'm white, and this isn't true of me. We didn't roll out. My family rented a flat from a black woman who was family to me so much so that she was my "Aunt Chris". I was a minority in my neighborhood and schools; I never noticed it then because I don't think most children see color. It's as adults we either decide to mirror racial attitudes of our parents, or form our own minds. How many of us can truthfully say that we don't sound a little like our parents when it comes to race?
Jrvass, invoking Dr. King? That's tired. Careful, though well-meaning it made me wince; especially when many white people still don't get it. Also implies that black people have no other role models. |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 6451
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 03, 2007 - 10:20 am: | |
Black folks are human beings. They have brains. Some think and problem solve others do not. A way a black person to think and problem solve starts at their home. They need that source to promote healthy thinking and adapt to the American's social change. But without that prime source they can't think, reason and problem solve so instead they take the easy way out in which its a hard think to do. So to all you all black-folks who want to succeed in life start using you brains, think before you act and don't NO ONE tell you can't do this or that just because you're black. |
Vetalalumni
Member
Username: Vetalalumni
Post Number: 668
Registered: 05-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 03, 2007 - 12:19 pm: | |
Jrvass, I had not taken note of your race. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. had a message of justice, equality, and peace. These will always be relevant. The topic of crime in Detroit deserves full coverage. May I recommend that you take the initiative and start a thread on Crime in Detroit? |
Gazhekwe
Member
Username: Gazhekwe
Post Number: 291
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 03, 2007 - 12:42 pm: | |
There is white flight, there is no question about that. Most, not all, of the white neighbors will somehow just decide it's time. There are always some who do not, so Oakmangirl, it does not refer to those great people.
For the future? Demand must exceed supply. White (or any Panic) flight must not occur. If we can address that, we can win this battle.
I have heard some of the "code" and seen some of the fears come to reality.
How about this one? "The neighborhood school used to be so good, but it has really gone down. I am just not comfortable any more sending my kids there. I want them to get a GOOD education." Reality, the only change is that the school is now more than 40% black.
"It isn't safe here any more." Reality, the new neighbors were just as concerned as we were about keeping the neighborhood safe for all of us.
"There are thieves all around us." Reality, one or maybe two households on the block had some issues, stolen cars turned up in empty house driveways on the street and in the alleys, left stripped and derelict to create the true impression of lawlessness.
"Property values will go down." True. With abandoned homes and derelict cars dotting the street, and much less demand than needed to meet the housing availability, the property values did fall. I believe what caused that was not blacks moving in, but white flight. You couldn't pay a white person to buy in that neighborhood, so the market was greatly reduced. It's just reality, we need all people to be interested in all areas before we can have a truly successful real estate market. |
Kaptansolo
Member
Username: Kaptansolo
Post Number: 194
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 03, 2007 - 12:58 pm: | |
ok,
Let me first agree with Vetal...Maybe I am stating things in the past too much.
I left Detroit in 1998. I left because I quit believing in the dream of the city coming bock. I am a person who believes you must first have a dream but I am also a "realist". I understand that one must have money. I may not be qualified to really say what the future holds for Detroit because I don't see the income that was once there coming back.
I have heard the horror stories about how the state of Michigan was planning on taking over the city government.
I have heard that there was no money to keep basic city services operating properly.
I have heard from a friend I have who works in real estate that Detroit is losing roughly 1000 people per month.
I have heard that unless your credit is "super stellar" you are not going to qualify for a mortgage or a home improvement loan.
The corruption that I hear about with Kilpatrick I do not doubt because I know that he is human(I'm not making any excuses) and if there is really nothing left to be able to fix Detroit, then he and his friends probably will take for themselves.
When I look at buildings like the "Lee" building over there by Northwestern and say how that would be a cool this or a cool that and I realize that I have cannot do renovate the place by myself...I am discouraged.
When I wanted so bad as a 19yr old to renovate the Riviera theater and realize after talking with my elders that while that would be a nice idea...who is going to come to it?
How would you make those who have money to come to it feel safe?
Where would they park?
What type of acts would you have in there?
Let me just say that the more I thought about it, I realized that I was just a "hopeless romantic" with Detroit and apparently I was not being realistic.
I rode my motorcycle around Detroit for 4 years and looked at all of the old factories that were still standing. I began to understand that it was not just "white flight" that destroyed Detroit, it was not just black folks, it was the lack of the manufacturing might that made Detroit what it was. There were all of these people making a lot of money and paying tax and spending money in the city. They bought grass seed and shopped at the grocery stores and they needed services and they had the money to afford them. They were mostly just the common man, not highly educated but they were here and they had "money".
Even if you were a doctor, the vast majority of your clientèle was autoworkers.
The factories that were here paid taxes and that pretty much supported the public school system.
I finally just lost the dream when I heard an executive at Ford say that they had no real responsibility to the country to keep high paying jobs in the United States. The reporter asked why not as an American company and his response was, "We are not an American company, we are a global company".
That pretty much did it for me.
In 1994 I was 26 and I got involved with a young lady who lived on Seward and this was around the time they were just starting to build those new houses there on 12th...I think it is the Virginia Park something or other...anyway, we were discussing Detroit one night and I realized that even though she grew up in Detroit she had no idea where she actually lived. I took her over on Second and Edison and showed her Henry Ford's first mansion. She said, that she never even knew it was there. She attended Northwestern High school and she was a year and a half older than I was. This woman had three children and I thought, "damn, what are they going to learn?"
Is this the future of Detroit. A new group of black people who do not even know why the city they live has run down? For that matter, what it was in it's day and what the fuel was that made it that way?
How do you NOT know that this was the automotive capital of the world?
A subculture had been created. I think these are the ones I hear talking about the city coming back without any money. They really think that money is just going to be created out of nothing. Even if you get funding from the government, you still have to have something that you produce and then "export" not necessarily out of the country but out of Detroit so that money comes in.
I gave up...I admit it. I am sorry, because that does disqualify me to talk when I am no longer there or contributing. It makes me part of the problem.
Oakmangirl...ok let me address the "roll out" thing I said.
You are right, I do need to be careful.
It was an observation of obviously not all whites.
On another occasion I took out a girl who lived off Joy Rd near Schaefer in 1992. I stopped by, picked her up and hit I-96 west and drove out M-14, hit US 23, then Plymouth Rd on into Ann Arbor and I went to a spot on off Washtenaw called the "Brown Jug". Nice little college hang out that we used to go to when I was playing drums in a band in Ypsi. It was a Saturday and she was very talkative until we got inside and I noticed that she was nervous and finally I realized what her problem was. She was not used to being around that many white people. It was kind of funny to me because I had been going there for years and I had lived in the suburbs and I did not think that much about it. So we had them wrap the food up and we left.
I am one of those "blacks" that was labeled by white people all of my life as being "different" and not like the rest. Because I listened to everything from rock to jazz to r&b to polka(most musicians are like that) I always had to endure the, "you listen to some pretty cool music for a black guy". Anyone who has ever been through this knows what I am talking about.
The realization that you are a "black guy" and not a "real brotha". I also realized that had I been a real brotha in a lot of cases some of my white friends would not have been my friends at all. In fact I probably would have never met them. I don't think that most of them would have had me over for dinner eating with their family.
As I got older I realized there was another group of whites who were well to do and they could laugh and talk with you because you were on the same socio-economic level as they were but...they did not want too many of you around. It was not spoken, but it was known that they did not want to live in an entire neighborhood of blacks or any other color for that matter even if they were well to do.
Those upper class whites know that people are human beings and they are intelligent enough to know that children imitate their atmosphere. They know that while they want their children to be upstanding citizens and get along with everyone, they do not necessarily want their children entering into interracial marriages(something that is bound to happen the closer you live next to one another) because kids do not care and the chances are much more likely that they will tell you to your face that your silent prejudice that you carry makes no sense. So to keep this from happening...you "Roll Out". There are black people who feel the same way. The difference is white people as a rule do not move into affluent black neighborhoods unless gentrification is taking place.
I hope I straightened some of that out.... |
Bratt
Member
Username: Bratt
Post Number: 601
Registered: 01-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 03, 2007 - 1:00 pm: | |
I read alot of the posts, sometimes I comment, sometimes I don't. I notice that the majority of the white posters here, they say that they are not racist at all, but I notice that most posts always turns into black people topics. I find that very interesting. Just reading through these posts on how blacks in the city are poor and can't afford computers....internet, etc. You all would be very surprised at how many households in Detroit have computers.
I just came back from down south. You talk about poor, dirty people. I was amazed at the poverty.....and they were white people. I just said wow.... |
Vetalalumni
Member
Username: Vetalalumni
Post Number: 671
Registered: 05-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 03, 2007 - 1:42 pm: | |
I just noticed, there already is an ongoing thread on Crime in Detroit. BTW, Jrvass, in no way are my comments an attempt to exclude you or your views (or anyone else's for that matter). One could say the black perspective on Detroit should include some coverage of the crime issue. And on a related note, whites can and do have a perspective on the black perspective. |
Kaptansolo
Member
Username: Kaptansolo
Post Number: 195
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 03, 2007 - 1:44 pm: | |
Vetalalumni, Kaptansolo, Royce... you are obviously intelligent, educated, individuals. Isn't Dr. King's dream still relevant?
pretty deep Jrvass
Let me say this to that.
Dr. King had a hell of a dream. But it was that "a dream".
I believed in it to until I read enough and I listened enough.
In an excerpt from one of Malcolm X's rallys, he addressed the reason why this was not ok thinking across the board.
He talked about a march that some peaceful non-violent blacks were participating in and how apparently a few white brutes were in the crowd and they jumped out and grabbed a few black women and were kicking and hitting them(I want to be clear on this...there were only a few of these brutes doing this and it was not the idea of every white person in attendance). Full grown black men were right there and they said, "let's overcome them with our capacity to love". WHAT KIND OF TALK IS THAT?
Incidents like these makes it difficult for black people to listen to a white man and in some cases other black folk talk about trying to achieve anything through that dream and non-violence.
(HERE IS WHERE WHITE PEOPLE HAVE A FIELD DAY ON HOW VIOLENT BLACK PEOPLE ARE)
I am not saying that there has to be violence, but there must be physical defense to counter punch physical offense and I am not waiting around on the Police.
Ok...so here we are today and a white man comes up and says what about Dr. King's dream...well...what about it??? I mean...are we there yet? Are we even close?
We as black people have some problems, but the non-violent liberal white people need to realize that they have inadvertently used you to help keep us soft and passive. You are the Novocaine in the jaw while the dentist drills your tooth out...so you suffer "peacefully".
I realize that the melting pot concept is not what most people really want. If they did, there would not be so much separation today. During the 80's I really thought it was getting better. When those gangster rappers out of L.A. started talking about police brutality, I was one who thought they were full of crap and I am a black man. But remember, I am a "black guy"...I am not a "real brotha"...remember I am "different" from the all of the rest of my black peers. I guess I would not know about any police brutality...I am not one of the ones "they" do not like...or am I??? Just because I did not suffer any police brutality does not mean it does not exist and I am no longer going to be the voice getting on other black people and saying everything is cool and you just need to pull yourself up by your boot straps and assimilate. I am living proof...that assimilation does not work.
Point is
"it" does exist...racism is alive and well, Gaz is right about the "code" talk. Whites can only deal with so many of us in their proximity, even when we have assimilated.
By the way...everybody...I want to apologize if my comments have been coming off with more passion than sense lately...I am just a little angry right now and I need to get through this.
Please excuse any attacks I have made on anyone...it is not my intention.
(Message edited by Kaptansolo on September 03, 2007) |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 258
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 03, 2007 - 1:48 pm: | |
Bratt,
I've been trying to focus on how we can better understand each other through the forum and together via mixed-income housing.
I'm sure many city residents DO connect to the Internet. Do you have a number? Fact is there's a nationwide digital divide that transcends race; poor people anywhere are more concerned with putting food on the table than with the paddock on Belle Isle. Yes, there are many poor in the South as there are in Appalachia. Have you ever seen Danville, VA? Talk about depressing; it looks like the Dust Bowl expanded East and never-ended. BTW, most residents are white. |
Patrick
Member
Username: Patrick
Post Number: 4883
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 03, 2007 - 1:51 pm: | |
In my opinion, the black perspective in Detroit seems more focused on day-to-day struggles such as la ck of employment, shelter, food, and advancement. The white perspective seems more about rehabbing old buildings and looking for the urban "grit" that they never had while growing up in Livonia. |
Bratt
Member
Username: Bratt
Post Number: 602
Registered: 01-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 03, 2007 - 1:57 pm: | |
Oakmangirl:
No I don't have a number on how many have the internet...really don't feel the need to have that number. Everyone black person I know who lives in the city..even some on welfare...have computers with the internet hook up.
Speaking of welfare....I want the hook up I went to the grocery store this morning and it was packed. People had steaks, ribs, two carts full of food. Got in line, and everybody but me was paying with the bridge card. Dammit, I almost said can I come over for dinner...since I paid for it anyway? Here I am with some sausages and dog food (got to feed the dog). Can't afford to buy a grocery cart full of steaks and ribs.
Sorry people, off topic, but had to vent to someone! |
Kaptansolo
Member
Username: Kaptansolo
Post Number: 196
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 03, 2007 - 2:08 pm: | |
lol Bratt
I think you have it in a nutshell Patrick
That is why I said, "white people have the resources to do what they want to do"
Black people are trying to survive. They may have the bridge card to buy the two carts of food...but they do not have credit or money to rehab a building.
There is some money there. I mean the Asians seem to be experts at getting some of it through their Chinese restaurants and cleaner businesses and that money is then carried into their community.
I am not mad at the Chinese...I was just saying, there is obviously some money there. |
Kaptansolo
Member
Username: Kaptansolo
Post Number: 197
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 03, 2007 - 2:15 pm: | |
I'm going to try and shut up for a while. I realize that I am angry and like I said my comments probably have more passion than well thought out sense right now.
Vetal...thank you for pointing it out...I went back and read my comments and even I started wondering how many topics I must have been trying to address in just one paragraph.
Please excuse me everyone... |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 259
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 03, 2007 - 2:21 pm: | |
Well, Bratt, that steak situation plain sucks and you can't fool yourself with A-1 on sausage. Bleccch.
Patrick, LOL. I always thought urban grit in Detroit meant you were bad ass enough to plow through the snow on your street FOR the city. Could have sworn that's why 70's cars were the size of boats and built like tanks. Ah, the good ol' days when it actually snowed...
Hey, wait, I have never, nor will I ever live in Livonia; you saying a city native isn't concerned over historic buildings? I'm a vocal supporter of rehab and read Kaptansolo's post- natives know and appreciate their buildings, but I do get your point. |
Vetalalumni
Member
Username: Vetalalumni
Post Number: 683
Registered: 05-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 03, 2007 - 8:31 pm: | |
Kaptansolo, your doing great in this thread. Find a way to channel that passion and anger into productive outlets. You have an abundance to share. I don't accept your apology . |
Kaptansolo
Member
Username: Kaptansolo
Post Number: 200
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 03, 2007 - 10:50 pm: | |
Hey man,
lol...I did not mean that I was going to shut up forever.
thanks... |
Mani
Member
Username: Mani
Post Number: 134
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Monday, September 03, 2007 - 10:51 pm: | |
Historically, and throughout civilization people tend to migrate toward what they know, what is familiar. It's called instinct (look at animals). We are human and rely on intellect (different than animals) however, people do not and have not changed much over the years. It is good to learn to live with others who are different. It is especially important not to commit violence against those who are different than us but, it is also unrealistic to think that we will all get along. |
Kaptansolo
Member
Username: Kaptansolo
Post Number: 201
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 03, 2007 - 10:52 pm: | |
Well said Mani |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 260
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 03, 2007 - 11:23 pm: | |
"...it is also unrealistic to think that we will all get along."
Interesting observation, Mani. I think you're saying it's innate for us to want to self-segregate, though we have the intellect to rise above this baser instinct and choose not to do so? Thus, it's anthropological or nature vs. nurture?
I think that obviously we all as individuals can't get along all the time; however, when we have the intellectual ability that sets us apart and start "grouping" and setting each other apart based on race, social class, etc., we veer into dangerous territory. Thinking of an individual as only part of a larger group resulted in horrific crimes like lynchings, gas chambers, to name a few.
While I agree we can't all get along, I would hope that's based on individual differences perceived by our intellect and not on instinct. Otherwise, we're no better than animals lower on the food chain. If we're talking instinct, I see it more as fear of the unknown. Obviously, we shouldn't be violent, but many a hate crime still happens because we choose not to "think". |
Blksoul_x
Member
Username: Blksoul_x
Post Number: 57
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 12:06 am: | |
What the 'F' is a 'Black perspective' on Detroit....Is there even such thing in the land of 'red white and blue!'...can the question be answered without taking the risk of being labelled a THUG, HOOLIGAN, OR 'VICTIMOLOGIST'!!!__Then to, it appears , many of the posters analogies are perhaps responses predicated upon the imposition of the dominate archetype!
Let's kick the ballistics, this ain't about Detroit, this is about 'amerikkka'!
To be sure, we as Black people are caught in a pendulum-matic process between the ideation of euro-humanism in which we(Blacks) have adopted and perhaps adapted to, and the humanity in which we have abandoned__and until we get to a point where we (Blacks) come to a firm conclusion on whether or not we desire more to have 'amerikkkan pea soup' or our GOD given birth right as to who defines who we are...only then will we be in a position to respectively deal with the 'Black perspective'__until then the 'Black perspective' essentially correlates to the analogy of the white perspective. In otherwords, the 'Black perspective' is essentially rooted and imposed by the dominate architecture__go figure!
So then the question remains, what is the 'Black perspective' in Detroit, amerikkka!....perphaps the most profound analogy is a strategy in which Hip-Hop griots best talk about Black life in the city streets of 'amerikkka', and this is, the profound sentiments of, 'Keeping It Real'...or more philosphically....'Real' and 'fake'.
Being 'Real and Fake' remains the most effective way to analyze the politics we practice within the Black perspective in 'amerikkkas' everyday practice. 'Keeping It Real', may be in some ways (but not by our making), a reductionistic structure to which we as Blacks claim our most objective 'Blackness'. This might seem rather simplistic...but it's what we do day by day. It's the by-product of a dynamic and complexed struggle in which we survive.
For example, when we talk about 'amerikkkas' drug economy, young Black men can get drug economy jobs, so then they become the 'MAN'...they can pay for the babies infa-meal, they can pay for the cable,, and they control the power and in some ways they are the protection in the community, the most noticable success story in the community__ unlike the Black IBM executive that don't live, drive, or claim the community to which he grew up in! ....that's 'Real'...so then what's the fake part....
.... 'Fake' is pretending that they are Black by accident, and claim that they are just like the larger society, and will do what it takes to integrate, insinuate, and establish themselves without the framework of the larger society as the Black IBM executive would claim to be. In otherwords, who is doing more damage to the community, the young drug dealer selling a few rocks to a crack addicted society or the IBM executive, who 'sold out' his people by removing his family from the community where the most his race resides taking knowledge, skills and presence away.
Perhaps the question of the 'Black perspective' is about 400 years to late...all that is left now is a white-washed version of 'Blackness'!__go figure!
So to be sure, we as Blacks in 'amerikkka' are simply incidentally passing through__as our destiny is not complete, there is another chapter to be written in the 'his-story' of 'amerikkka' streets, and that is our complete exit from the shores of 'amerikkkas' ends__back to a Land and to re-write the history of the people of the Land of the Blacks!
blksoul-atcha! |
Vetalalumni
Member
Username: Vetalalumni
Post Number: 691
Registered: 05-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 12:35 am: | |
Blksoul_x, that was intense. Afraid I'm going to need a little time to fathom all that was written. Stay tuned. |
Kaptansolo
Member
Username: Kaptansolo
Post Number: 202
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 2:37 am: | |
Blksoul
alright, the "sell out" does take his presence away and his knowledge and skills away.
This touches on that subject of "real brotha" vs. "black guy".
Sometimes the black IBM executive knows nothing else. No he was not black by accident, but he only knows that which he was "intentionally" exposed to by his parents.
The hardest position I would say to be in would be to look like "you" and sound like "them". This is not your fault. You imitate your atmosphere even if that atmosphere does not want you there because that is all you know.
I lived on Taylor Street right off Dexter from 1970 to 1975. I was a kid. I knew the lady and her husband across the street and the next door neighbors. I was not allowed off the porch so I did not play or interact with my peers much except at school. This was done "intentionally" because my parents did not want me involved in any of the "as you put it" REAL STUFF that may have been going on. Improper english and other the things that make us "black" by street standards were not tolerated in our household...period.
We moved to the suburbs in 1976 and yeah, you do think that you are being accepted by the "other kind of colored people"(white folks). As you get older you learn which ones are real and which ones are fake. You learn that a lot of the "acceptance" is not genuine.
You also learn that whatever knowledge and skill you have acquired is not appreciated in your old neighborhood because you do not have a "ghetto pass". You were never "down" and that is obvious from the way you talk and what you like to do.
The "little kids jumping me" that Ice Cube spoke about do not want to go near you no matter what you could teach because you don't know how to "package" it right where they will not feel like you are coming off like you are white.
And of course as I said, you have found out that in spite of the fact that "you are cool and not like the rest of the black guys or hip hop community", we do not want you around here on a regular basis either.
That is as REAL as it's gets! Ain't nothing FAKE about that.
(Message edited by Kaptansolo on September 04, 2007) |
Vetalalumni
Member
Username: Vetalalumni
Post Number: 692
Registered: 05-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 2:55 am: | |
Blksoul_x, in reference to the first paragraph of your [Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 12:06 am] post,
[1] What the 'F' is a 'Black perspective' on Detroit...?
Right or wrong, the original theme of this thread was, in part, "...the black perspective on the future of Detroit". My interpretation is that this is an inquiry into the outlook of (some) blacks on the future of Detroit. This would include the aspirations, fears, and plans of blacks in relation to the future of Detroit. It goes without saying that this small DYes community does not represent the entire set of black perspectives. Posters in this thread have volunteered their perspective regarding the future of Detroit. All DYes members may post to the threads of their choosing, so there should be no problem with non-blacks posting if they choose to do so. Assuredly, there are many lurkers viewing this thread from all races, creeds, and religions. I think DYes members know this - don't they?
[2] Is there even such thing* in the land of 'red white and blue!? (* as Black Perspective)
Speaking literally, everyone has a perspective on that which affects their lives.
[3] can the question be answered without taking the risk of being labelled a THUG, HOOLIGAN, OR 'VICTIMOLOGIST'!!!?
Taking a position on a topic will indeed lead to being labeled in some fashion. Labels can be insensitive, hastily applied, and often incorrect. Why is it risky to be labeled, especially if it is without merit?
[4] ...it appears , many of the posters analogies are perhaps responses predicated upon the imposition of the dominate archetype!
Which particular analogies are you referring to?
[update]
Is the following translation correct?
"...it appears , many of the posters analogies are perhaps responses predicated upon the imposition of the dominate archetype" = The posts are based upon constraints of the prevailing model (i.e. societal structure).
(Message edited by vetalalumni on September 04, 2007) |
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