 
Southen
Member
Username: Southen
Post Number: 266
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 12:56 pm: |    |
"Population continues to decline, the budget is a perennial disaster, sprawl continues unabated, city services suck, the City's bond rating is shit, and the regional economy is a mess. Where are the positives?"
Ok, yes those are problems but what exactly does it have to do with the city hosting an event? So the city has lots of problems, I guess they shouldnt try to promote the city and host events like this? According to you the city shouldnt participate in anything that doesnt effect the problems you listed off.
It seems like you have some sort of agenda. Its blatantly obvious to just about everyone else that these events have been a positive for the city and region. And I havent seen one person claim that these things are going to single handedly save the city, but they do help. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3251
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 1:45 pm: | |
If the purpose of a city were to throw parties and Big Events, I'd agree wholeheartedly. Detroit has a nasty habit of ignoring the things that matter, though, and the needs of its own residents, while pursuing ever more Big Parties and catering to outsiders who could give two shits about the city. It's absurd.
And let's not even get started claiming that these Parties lead to development. NOBODY opens a business predicated on an event that happens for one weekend (or even a week). So Detroit hasn't hosted events like this for 20 years. Okay, then let's start talking about places like Jacksonville and Salt Lake, and how they are just absolutely BOOMING right now. |
Detroitbill
Member
Username: Detroitbill
Post Number: 314
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 2:05 pm: | |
The fact that Detroit has hosted these major events can only be construed as a major positive compared to what was happening before.Possibly the naysayers may not like that but its extremely obvious to us here that the perception of Downtown Detroit as a destination point has increased materially in the last several years. This pertains not only to locals but many visitors as well and will continue especially with the opening of casinos, hotels the new and renovated DIA and other construction downtown etc. There is a long road to go but there have been major strides which I believe most Detroiters are quite enthusiastic about. Many times I hear from suburbanites about how much they like to come downtown now, this was simply not the case even five years ago. Funny, many of these events Washington and other major cities have not hosted. Many of these events are awarded to cities due to superior facilities and good committee presentations. I think we can rest our case that we have obviously placed well in that department . These events are not awarded on charity decisions. You must build a solid framework in order to tackle the various urban issues confronting Detroit ( and many other cities) today. |
Vintagesoul
Member
Username: Vintagesoul
Post Number: 39
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 2:21 pm: | |
actually, dan, when the superbowl was here there were a number of "temporary" businesses that opened among other permanent ones. For a fact I know that the bar centaur that opened across from the town pump was a product of the superbowl and still remains today. albeit all the temporary bars closed after the party was over but it goes to show you that business open exactly for that reason.
i don't think you can compare detroit to any city really, especially not SALT LAKE. the religious element there makes it stand alone. now as for jacksonville i can't comment because i don't speak about things i don't know about but i will say that i don't think they've suffered the strife that detroit has. i think detroit is in a category all by itself.
as for the big events notion - the way i feel is pretty clear cut. i don't think it's our job to throw the parties but you absolutely cannot deny that it brings people here who might not otherwise have come here. you can't deny that there is more money spent no matter how miniscule that amount is. you can't deny that it serves to jump start some folks into capitalizing on the increased revenue by pushing up the opening dates of already proposed businesses. you can't deny that what is already starting to go on downtown gets noticed and may convince some people to move here. (although i wouldn't say that it's the view of ford field from the goodyear. i would say it's the folks who actually come down here and see all the lofts and business in the woodward corridor.)
so for someone who has a lot of things to say about what we should be doing, why don't you just get excited about what *is* going on?
that's what i do. it's called being positive. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3253
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 2:26 pm: | |
quote:so for someone who has a lot of things to say about what we should be doing, why don't you just get excited about what *is* going on?
that's what i do. it's called being positive.
I really try to be positive, but I can't placate myself with bread and circuses when the City goes on ignoring the most basic quality of life issues. It's almost as if the City just flips a gigantic middle finger to its own residents while it parties the night away. Remember the sequestering of the homeless population?
I will say, however, that it took the Super Bowl transportation debacle to make the Big Earring wake up and think, "Hey, maybe a major city needs decent public transportation." |
Michigan
Member
Username: Michigan
Post Number: 1095
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 2:29 pm: | |
silliness |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 726
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 2:33 pm: | |
Also, let's assume for a moment that the perception of Detroit among people who don't live or visit here is substantially worse than the reality. I happen to believe that's true. If you assume it is, then the fact that thousands of people will visit who've never been here before can only alter their perception, which can only help us long-term.
If I'm wrong, then the people who come here leave with the same perception they had when they came, but they've spent money here, so we're still better off, just not as much so.
Either way it's positive, the only question is how much of a difference will it make.
And Dan, the City has not put all of its oomph into hosting events, in fact not all that much. Much of the work leading up to the Super Bowl was spearheaded by private citizens and businesses, though the City certainly provided support. Adopting a modified version of your skeptical viewpoint for a moment, I would say the City has been ignoring some (but not all) of the real problems for years, whether they were trying to host events or not, so that hasn't changed either and it's still a net positive. From that viewpoint, we sucked before, people came and left money behind, so we still suck but we have more money. Still better off than before.
It's a difference in perspective. I know a lot of engineers, and for them I put it this way. If you have a 16 oz. glass that repeatedly is only asked to hold 8 ounces of beer, an optimist will tell you it's half-full, a pessimist will tell you it's half-empty, and an engineer will tell you the glass was obviously overdesigned.
I would tell you to briefly look the other way; then the glass would be empty and there'd be no question about it. |
Alan55
Member
Username: Alan55
Post Number: 533
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 2:38 pm: | |
Your right, Michigan. Sure, there are 500 things that Detroit needs to fix, but having large events come to town and generate jobs, tourism dollars, and tax receipts, is something to be happy about. In fact, having events such as this will help diminish some of those other 499 things.
Better to light a single candle... |
Kenp
Member
Username: Kenp
Post Number: 786
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 2:38 pm: | |
I'll bet you 10 bucks danindc, who lives in DC, is a lobbyist. |
Mudmarker
Member
Username: Mudmarker
Post Number: 7
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 3:22 pm: | |
Let's here it for danindc! Our man dan has single handedly steered this thread into ridiculousness.
The fact is, dan, there is a huge event coming to Detroit, and people are allowed to get excited about it. Your comments are totally irrelevant and uncalled for. Talking about positives is not synonymous with ignoring negatives, stop berating everyone.
So lets give dan his jackass award, and get back to the subject at hand.
How great is the final 4 going to be? As a bartender, and resident in the city, I for one, am looking forward to it.
p.s. a few big words for dan: peDANtic, diDANctic
WE LOVE YOU DAN! |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3257
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 3:36 pm: | |
quote:Let's here it for danindc! Our man dan has single handedly steered this thread into ridiculousness.
The fact is, dan, there is a huge event coming to Detroit, and people are allowed to get excited about it. Your comments are totally irrelevant and uncalled for. Talking about positives is not synonymous with ignoring negatives, stop berating everyone.
So lets give dan his jackass award, and get back to the subject at hand.
Well, I'm entitled to my opinion, whether you like it or agree with it or not. I haven't berated anyone, let alone call anyone a jackass. I think it's ridiculous you're going to plan to be excited about one lousy weekend that happens a year and a half from now but hey, knock yourself out.
One of these days, you guys will learn what makes a city, and hosting the Final Four ain't it. I wish I could have Kwame's shoes--you are all apparently very easily appeased and satisfied. Let's just hope the City has enough money to plow the streets that weekend in 2009. |
Mudmarker
Member
Username: Mudmarker
Post Number: 8
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 3:59 pm: | |
No has claimed that hosting the final four is going to turn the city around. Judging by you're responses, one would think that people are saying that the final four is going to turn bullets into housing for the poor, get kil kil impeached, and cure aids.
If one restaurant opens or is able to not go out of business, then it was all worth it. I am sorry that you are allergic to enthusiasm. Your over reaction to a simple question of how many people will be coming to Detroit is comical.
I'm sorry i called you a jackass, its just that you are being so jackassy right now. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3259
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 4:09 pm: | |
quote:If one restaurant opens or is able to not go out of business, then it was all worth it.
At what cost? I applaud enthusiasm, but you honestly think that this is the most efficient way to keep one restaurant open?
Frankly, I'd rather be excited about trash pickup, well-maintained parks, better public transit, good libraries, and development of neighborhood retail. I know those are the things that matter to me, especially since I try to avoid tourists like the Plague. |
Southen
Member
Username: Southen
Post Number: 267
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 4:09 pm: | |
Dan are you that numbskulled? Who is saying we all want these events over city services? Perhaps you missed what Mudmarker said here:
Talking about positive is not synonymous with ignoring negatives
After several people pointing that out you still have the same illogical argument. I for one resent your condescending attitude that were all simpletons because we are excited about a major event and the prospects of what it can do for the city. Do us all a favor and get off your high horse and preaching what makes a real city. No DCYes forum where you can bother people? |
Michigan
Member
Username: Michigan
Post Number: 1096
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 4:12 pm: | |
Maybe no one listens to him in DC? |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3260
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 4:19 pm: | |
quote:I for one resent your condescending attitude that were all simpletons because we are excited about a major event and the prospects of what it can do for the city.
Well, enlighten my "condescending attitude", then. What will hosting the Final Four do for Detroit that warrants such excitement a year and a half out? Every academic study I've read on the subject suggests that benefits will be marginal at best. The rest of the posters on this thread offer nothing other than guesses. To make a claim that such an event will boost Detroit is patently ludicrous and unsupportable--especially since you all can plainly see how much "spinoff" occurred as a direct result of Super Bowl XL.
Now, I recognize that Detroit is not a major tourist destination, nor does it regularly host events of this magnitude. So trust me--as someone who lives in a city where tourists and huge events are fairly commonplace--the "substitution effect" is very much real and can't be ignored.
When folks throw personal insults at another because his opinions do not align with their own, then I believe I do have a certain justification to look at you as a provincial simpleton. |
Vintagesoul
Member
Username: Vintagesoul
Post Number: 41
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 4:20 pm: | |
i'll tell you what, i don't know that *i* am pleased or satisfied, but what i'm not doing is setting the bar so high we can't reach it dan.
i think the final four coming to detroit is fantastic, as i mentioned firstly. i stand by that. i get excited every time there's a ball game and people come here who wouldn't normally and leave saying "wow that's better than i expected". when you start at the bottom, the only way to go is up and sometimes that takes a long time and a lot of hard work.
also - as a citizen my abilities are limited. i can't walk into kwame's office and tell him how to run this city...just like i can't walk into the white house and tell the president i don't like the way he's doing things either. what i do is i VOTE and i VOLUNTEER and i get excited about the positive things NO MATTER how small they are because they're all we've got. maybe one day many years from now we can all sit around and nit pick but i don't think that's the situation just yet.
dan i think you've been in dc too long maybe that's the problem. when you live here every day you have a different perspective than when you don't. |
Lowell
Board Administrator
Username: Lowell
Post Number: 4125
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 4:23 pm: | |
Ah jealousy, the highest compliment. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3261
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 4:27 pm: | |
As someone who lives in a transitional neighborhood, I get excited about little things all the time. I think your post #41, vintagesoul, speaks to where your head is at, though. You are more concerned about what outsiders think of your city than improving it for the people who already live there. Who cares what the visitors think if the city can't meet the basic needs of its residents? Do you think I get bent out of shape if some tourist from Ohio thinks DC is a hellhole?
I could give two shits.
I DO get excited about things in my neighborhood, though, like a new bar or grocery store, or the newly renovated football stadium at the high school a few blocks away. Those are the things that make life better EVERY SINGLE DAY.
Lowell, I could care less that Detroit hosts the Final Four in 2009. You can keep the smarmy self-indulgence (and the tourists).
(Message edited by DaninDC on September 10, 2007)
(Message edited by DaninDC on September 10, 2007) |
Vintagesoul
Member
Username: Vintagesoul
Post Number: 42
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 5:03 pm: | |
dan i don't think you should try to figure out where my head is at. i'll just tell you to make it easy. i am pro-detroit in every aspect of the word. i care about my neighborhood and have been a part of my neighborhood's committee and security patrol since i moved there. i vote in every election and i only vote for candidates i know about. i shop at eastern market and u foods every week. my husband and i eat dinner when we go out in the city at least 2 or 3 nights a week. i volunteered in the past for pro-literacy detroit because i hate to see the illiteracy rate as high as it is. i go to tiger games. i tell everyone i know how great the city is. i care about what other folks think of detroit because if they don't want to be here then what's the point of making the city appeal to tourists? isn't that what every city wants? to be a destination, not just survive economically? i don't suppose that i care about one individual not liking detroit but i do care if a lot of people don't like detroit and last i checked that was the case for most outsiders so any victory in that arena is a big victory in my opinion.
so if you want to take one aspect of my argument and twist it to make your argument then that's fine but at least now you know where my head is at exactly and you don't have to guess.
i think i know where *your* head is at, but i will say that i am a nice person and i will give you the benefit of the doubt that you're just having a bad day today.
and one last thing - don't start attacking lowell because if i remember correctly you didn't like being called a jackass. let's all be adults here. your opinion, no matter how much i disagree with it is allowed to be heard, so is mine, so is lowell's. so there. |
Emu_steve
Member
Username: Emu_steve
Post Number: 460
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 5:07 pm: | |
Let me repeat a comment I've made many times before:
If there is no Ford Field, no CoPa, no RenCen, no RiverWalk, no casinos, no BelleIsle races, etc. etc. would there be a Detroit?
Take all of these entertainment and sports venues and events out of Detroit and the city becomes what it was decades ago.
At least Detroit has the possibilities of close-in neighborhoods coming back.
No one would be interested in living along the water front if there is there is nothing around it.
No one would be interested in living in mid-town.
There must be an anchor - something to build on.
The Super Bowl, MLB All-Star game, Final Four is a public affirmation by sports professionals in what Detroit has done in sports and with its downtown.
(Message edited by emu_steve on September 10, 2007) |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3262
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 5:14 pm: | |
Frankly, I'd be happy to survive economically. I don't live anywhere near where any tourist would want to go, and I kinda like it that way.
Then again, we're just starting to wind down another hot and muggy tourist season here, and those people wear my patience the hell out. My personal opinion of "tourists" is not too high much of the time--not when I'm trying to get to work/home, anyway.
Vintagesoul, I'm glad to "meet" someone so engaged in their community. It's people like you that make Detroit what it is. I suppose that I just find it necessary to reiterate that any permanent improvement in Detroit is going to stem from adhering to sound economic development policies, and a lot of "ground-up" work at the neighborhood level. The fleeting events are nice, I suppose, but should not overshadow the smaller, more beneficial, more lasting things that are happening.
Press clips are good for the ego, but they don't build things or fill buildings. I see it as analagous to a person--it doesn't matter how many times you get compliments from a friend, self-esteem comes from the inside. |
Michigan
Member
Username: Michigan
Post Number: 1097
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 5:17 pm: | |
Smarmy self-indulgence? Not exactly the most accurate turn of a phrase DinD. Smug would have been closer to what you were trying to say, I think. But, you are an engineer, a group whose writings are as far from Oscar Wilde's as, well, Detroit is from DC.
Either way, it is nice for Detroit to draw these events. They do generate cash, albeit on a one time basis. To deny that is silly on your part, and to belittle citizens of Detroit because they are happy to see a large sporting event come to town, well that is pretty close to smarmy arrogance.
I sincerely doubt that the businesses and people of DC are as smug about tourists as you are. Looking at the city's tourism web site it seems to me that DC takes tourism and tourists very seriously (http://www.washington.org/inde x.cfm?blnNavView=True&idConten tType=36&idCurrentPage=7).
So, reflecting on the earlier exchange, Danindc, you seem to mean well. But, in your youth you have not learned one of life's most important lessons. That being, when you try to piss on someone else's dream, you look like an asshole. Learn from this Grasshopper, and blossom into a beautiful lotus flower.
(Message edited by michigan on September 10, 2007) |
Vintagesoul
Member
Username: Vintagesoul
Post Number: 44
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 5:30 pm: | |
well dan i gotta end my posting day since accounting class is calling, but i will say this:
thank you for the acknowledgement, but i don't do it for that. i genuinely love the city and always have. i agree with some of the things in your last post regarding what needs to be done. i would love it if we were making as much headway there as we were in being recognized nationally again. trust me. however, things are what they are and i don't see that aspect changing anytime soon as long as kwame is in office; so i will continue to vote for the better opponent when election time comes and i will just keep doing what i do to be a part of this city.
hope tomorrow is a better day for you. |
Baltgar
Member
Username: Baltgar
Post Number: 75
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 5:31 pm: | |
MSU in 2009! |
Baltgar
Member
Username: Baltgar
Post Number: 76
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 5:37 pm: | |
Even if 1 or 2 more places open up or we get better infrastructure as a result of this event then it should be considered a success.
Also, this might have a longer lasting impact than the SB because of the audience. Many young college students who will soon be professionals in the job market will descend on the city. This is a huge marketing opportunity to lure those people. The State of MI and in particular SE MI is losing young professionals by the hundreds to other states every year. Many of these young people will never come back. We need to make a push to save this creative class. |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 326
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 5:56 pm: | |
Kinda feel the need, as a resident, to back Dan's message. I think things get ugly because we go on attacks instead of discuss issues calmly and logically; I understand this as human nature too. However, let's refocus for a minute and ask some questions:
How does bringing in temporary or seasonal sporting events help the city in the long run? How do they complement or fulfill the vision we have for our city? Hell, does Detroit, officially on paper, have a vision or a 10-20 year plan?
I think Dan is absolutely correct here:
"It becomes a crutch. In other words, the City isn't motivated to do the things *it already should be doing* until it has a big party to throw."
Why is it, as Detroiters, we're so damn defensive. The defensive attitudes here are most telling; they speak volumes about the insecurities we feel because of where we live. Vintagesoul captures this perfectly:
"i think we have to take what we can get."
Why do we feel we must settle for whatever measly bone is thrown our way? Another restaurant opening as a side effect doesn't amount to a hill of beans.
We don't need pocket redevelopments, tourist traps, ugly ass blue arches...we need serious leadership and a blueprint for where we want to be as a thriving city.
Maybe as this article (some of you may know it) suggests, we need "branding". At first I thought it was crap; I abhor the whole concept of branding, but now see that maybe our leaders could use this. This led to thinking...
What is our identity anymore? Are we The Casino City? The Sometime Sport Fan City? I think what Dan is saying is that we have the enviable opportunity of becoming a world class city. Let's not bullocks it up.
http://www.brandchannel.com/fe atures_effect.asp?pf_id=234#mo re |
Michigan
Member
Username: Michigan
Post Number: 1098
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 6:18 pm: | |
Oakmangirl- You and danindc both seem to have a fabulous grasp of the obvious. Of course everyone would like to see city services improved. There have been several thousand posts and several threads devoted to that very idea. The point here is, when something good is going to happen, like Fanny Brice says- don't bring around a cloud to rain on my parade.
Reread DinD's first post. Let me paraphrase it for you, "Oh you ignorant parochial fools! I live near the President! I am important! You get excited over nothing, I swat you like the flies that you are." That is why posters got defensive, because he was a self-indulgent blow hard who doesn't know what smarmy means.
Why not point out that the current paradigm for these large tourist events does little for cities in the long run? How about putting forth some ideas about how that paradigm could be changed to leverage the event to the city's fullest advantage? I'll tell you why, because that is hard work and it takes clear and creative thought. It is much easier to just pretend that you are smart and know things that no one else does. But in the end, when you don't deliver anything new or original or productive, the charade stops, and the scales fall from our eyes (paraphrasing again). |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 328
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 6:52 pm: | |
I was mainly referring to our identity issues, not lack of city services.
"How about putting forth some ideas about how that paradigm could be changed to leverage the event to the city's fullest advantage?"
Great idea! I'd rather see some ideas posted in this vein and go beyond the boorish posts that state the obvious and the mindless cheerleading posts that shout "give me a D" over any city event. Any takers? Michigan, what do you envision for our future? How can we parlay this event into a long-term, substantive boon to our city?
I envision a "Green City" with distinct culturally mixed neighborhoods (still celebrating unique ethnic culture within); a thriving arts/music scene; rehabbed old houses; diversified economies; lively neighborhood local/haunts; bike lanes on our streets...I fail to see how a sporting event can be parlayed into any of the above. Please some other enlightened resident help me figure it out? I'm stymied.
Now, let the negative barrage begin... |
Downtown_remix
Member
Username: Downtown_remix
Post Number: 483
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 7:40 pm: | |
Well I started this post this morning and im delighted to read all the different ideas.
As a downtown resident, Im living in the begining Of Detroits reinvented melting pot.
Pre 2004 Downtown was a dump. The superbowl pulled downtown out of the dumpster and into the beginning of prosperity.
The biggest impact of the Superbowl was its achievment of changing the mindset of thousands who live in and around Michigan and who would otherwise never consider Detroit as a place to visit and mostly spend money.
I moved to LA in '95, came back to the D last year and was blown away at what a high profile sporting event can do for a dead downtown. Several massive developments will be complete b4 the FINAL 4
1. ROSA PARKS TRANSIT CENTER
2. MGM GRAND CASINO HOTEL
3. MOTOR CITY CASINO HOTEL
4. BOOK CADILLAC HOTEL
5. THE GRISWOLD
5. FORT SHELBY HOTEL
6. 100s OF NEW LOFT/CONDO RESIDENTS
7. REVAMPED HART PLAZA
8. REVAMPED CAPITAL PARK
NOW WITH ALL OF OUR GROWTH UP TILL 2009, LETS VISUALIZE PENSKE'S PREPARATION FOR FINAL FOUR. |
Vintagesoul
Member
Username: Vintagesoul
Post Number: 45
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 8:31 pm: | |
oakmangirl, i won't hit you with negativity because that's not my style. i'm an opportunist, a positive-realist (if there is such a thing). i would like to say that i can agree with your vision and i agreed with dan's vision, the problem is you have to realize what we have to work with. you can't set goals that are unattainable at this point. do you really think that we could become green in the next 5 years? i'm not asking if it's possible, i'm asking if it's plausible given our current condition and the wants and needs of the citizens.
i'm not saying that we should take any measly bone we can get, but what i'm saying is i know it takes baby steps. as i mentioned in an earlier post i think any positive development is a good thing. positive development can come in many forms. the fact they even want to host events here is a victory in my opinion because i think we all know that even 5 years ago that would've been laughable.
i wish that the majority of the city would all get together and march down to the mayor's office and tell him we're not gonna put up with this bullsh*t anymore, but i don't even see that kind of unity around me. i see small patches of people like myself living in little neighborhoods where they are close and they band together but until all the smaller neighborhoods are connected with contiguous areas of somewhat safe (by big city standards) housing and schools i don't see how it could happen. i don't see how a bunch of neighborhoods divided could become one and stand up to the bully that is our city government.
sorry to rant, but i care about this city very much. maybe i am defensive, but i feel like my love for the city gets called out on the carpet quite a bit by people who fail to understand where my feelings come from. i don't apologize for defending those feelings to people who want to tell me i'm wrong for feeling them.
i hope you understand that you and dan and i are actually in agreement about quite a few things. i just felt he took a negative approach to getting excited about events and that he couldn't see what they do for the city. |
Vintagesoul
Member
Username: Vintagesoul
Post Number: 46
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 8:33 pm: | |
on a side note, danindc, when did you live here and for how long? (if you lived here, that is...i only assume you did because you post here.) I'm just curious what timeframe you spent in the city and what you saw when you were here.... |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 330
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 9:26 pm: | |
Vintagesoul,
I didn't mean to rain on the parade; I'm glad to see the city hosting a revenue generating event- I guess I just want to know where this fits into the city's "master plan", and I don't see it. I've always been a person who craves clarity and one who focuses on the forest over the trees.
I also don't like how certain posters seem to turn things into personal attacks; they swoop in, post something smarmy about you or accuse you of things, then flee the scene of the crash without offering anything of substance themselves. At the end of my post, I suggested we discuss our city's identity and asked for input- how is that negative? If anything, I think it invites us to focus on a core issue for us and moves the discussion beyond the bickering stage. This; however, was ignored in favor of belittling anything else written. This nasty tactic isn't healthy discussion or dialog...ironically, it's simply another form of negativity. It's just plain puerile nonsense that reflects partly why we're not marching in unity.
Don't ever apologize for being passionate about the city! We do agree, and in re-reading Dan's posts, he was a little harsh, but I say attack the argument and negativity with calm, rational counterpoints- Gazhweke (sp?) is a master at this. I've been in the lion's den out here and wanted to stop the attack; it's pointless. Besides, he's got city services issues too! Think of DC proper; I'm guessing without tourism and the feds based economy, DC wouldn't be on the map so to speak.
Anyway, what do you think- do we need "branding" or a new and improved identity? Where do you think sporting events fit in to the big picture? |
Ray
Member
Username: Ray
Post Number: 994
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 9:42 pm: | |
I think both sides are right.
DaninDc points out correctly that the direct economic impact is minimal.
However, what's at state is psychology. After all, psychology is what destroyed the city. Fear, racisim, defeatism.
If people in SE Michigan had a different state of mind, and if the rest of the country were to look at Detroit more objectively, it would make a massive impact.
The point of these events is that they change psychology.
The superbowl had immense impact, well beyond what can be measured directly by dollars spent by visitors. It fundamentally affected the region's self perception. We can get together. We can execute. We can do it right.
danindc is just mad because I told him I hope they nuke his city and he isn't off at the beach. LOL. |
Tponetom
Member
Username: Tponetom
Post Number: 129
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 10:36 pm: | |
Oakmangirl:
I struggle through many of these posts looking for a thread of hope. Hope being, something or someone I can identify with, if only in theory, but always with a prospect of reality. Your post # 330 invigorates my optimism.
I have lived through the glory days of Detroit and I can recall many of the momentary, spectacular happenings that boosted Detroit into the super star that it was. But those incendiary moments did not make Detroit what it was. It was then, it is now and it will always be, the people. In all of these erudite discussions about the people who go downtown and find everything just comfy, cozy, I read very little, or nothing at all, about the 800,000 odd black people who are those who really populate, Detroit. How many of them are posting their thoughts, dreams or criticisms? I was taught, at an early age about colored people or negroes and Jews. I think I learned my lesson well. I am going to explain that in an additional post to this one. |
Michigan
Member
Username: Michigan
Post Number: 1100
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 10:47 pm: | |
power to the people Tpone, don't believe the hype, fight the power, street prophets |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3263
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 10:50 pm: | |
I was about to post a thoughtful response to the past few posts, but my browser keeps acting up. I'll see you guys in the AM. |
Michigan
Member
Username: Michigan
Post Number: 1101
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 10:58 pm: | |
BTW- folks, could we limit our use of the term "smarmy". It is becoming all too common on this thread and limiting the free flow of ideas as it were. |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 331
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 11:29 pm: | |
Waiting to hear you, Tpone. You are spot on.
I grew up in the city in the 70's, and it seems to me everyone looked out for each other and got along. The divide in this city deeply saddens me. I wonder, had it been there all along, and being a child I never noticed? No, I refuse to believe it.
I said this before I'm sure, but children don't see color; I never did. I work with kids now, and they still couldn't care less about skin tone unless they're spewing some negative stuff heard at home. I really think a lot has to do with upbringing; people tend to absorb the attitudes of their parents, and some never outgrow them as we can see in race tainted threads on the forum.
I hope at least through the exchange of ideas, perceptions change and everyone feels comfortable enough to share.
Ack! This is post #331- Lowell laces this forum with sugar; I need a DetroitYES 12 Step, er, and a life... |
Lefty2
Member
Username: Lefty2
Post Number: 113
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 11:39 pm: | |
final four? .03% will make a lot of dough. the rest will watch what happened and pay some dough. the city will make some good tax cash. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 728
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 12:27 am: | |
I would like to offer this up: one of the things that makes Detroit Detroit, to our detriment, is that in almost any other city on Earth, landing a big event for which there is competition among cities would be uniformly (or nearly so) seen as a positive thing. Only here do we take such news and say "well, yeah, but..."
When Lake Placid landed the winter Olympics a good many years ago, and I was in upstate Noo Yawk in them days, I don't recall a single person, not even newspaper columnists, giving any kind of horsecrap like "oh, sure, we have the OLYMPICS but what will THAT do for our overall blah blah effing blah". It was just excitement; landing the Olympics was a big deal, an accomplishment, and seen as such.
Dan, Oak and so on: most of us live around here and we
ALREADY KNOW
1. There are unsafe neighborhoods
2. I would say "transit sucks" but there's no need to compare the word "suck" to something as bad as our transit
3. Many schools could be much better
4. Lack of lots of basic types of retail
5. Government that is dysfunctional on its good days
and so forth. But it still is a positive thing, a good trend if you like, that we are starting to be considered as a host venue for big national events. I won't make any money off this and neither will most of you; in fact, for some of us, it will be disruptive as much as anything. But for a City that a lot of folks had more or less written off 20 or 25 years ago, I think it's a very good sign.
It does not cure cancer, it does not fix schools, but it also does not put the government to sleep; they've been asleep for sixty or eighty years and this is neither helpful nor harmful in that regard. It's just a nice thing, which we can enjoy, and if you want to enjoy it by carping then God bless you. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 3895
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 4:02 am: | |
Even after considering the economic multiplier effect, the typical Detroiter receives no economic benefit after these small-blip special events come AND GO every two/three years.
IOW, a great big yawner for the vast majority of us... |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3264
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 7:51 am: | |
Okay, so here's what I started to write last night:
quote:I think what Dan is saying is that we have the enviable opportunity of becoming a world class city. Let's not bullocks it up.
Thank you. Spot-on.
Hosting an event like the Final Four is not necessarily a bad thing, unless you're a local who actually cares to enjoy the city's offerings that particular weekend. You might be better off staying at home.
From what I read on these forums, there is an inordinate, and I believe completely unjustified, overstatement of the benefits of these events. I mean, come on. To blame the Super Bowl for the rehabilitation of the Book Cadillac? To attribute the Rosa Parks Transit Center to the Super Bowl? It's ridiculous--these projects were going to happen anyway, one way or another. These events become a distraction, and mask the very real factors that are leading to redevelopment in Detroit. I sense a very strong misapplication of credit here.
The economic benefits of these Big Events are marginal, at best. Compared to the entire regional economy, the spending by visitors for these events is peanuts.
While it is true that most of the planning for these events is independent of day-to-day administration of the city, you're a fool if you think the Mayor, Council, and city departments like Transit and Police don't have to dedicate valuable resources and time. Let's not forget that those who already live in Detroit--such as the homeless during the Super Bowl--are marginalized in favor of out-of-towners. It really shows where the city's priorities are.
A lot of Detroit's problems right now have to do with money, or lack thereof. Property values and incomes are low, taxes are too high, and services are underfunded. Rather than constantly gunning to host Big Events, I would prefer to see a comprehensive strategy that seeks to increase the revenue density of the city.
As Vintagesoul stated above, it takes baby steps. However, the City needs to have long-term goals, and take incremental steps that work toward those goals. It seems that the status quo is to pursue Big Events and Project Plans, and then *hope* something happens. It takes a long time--I witness it first-hand every day--but the accumulation of lots of small incremental steps can result in something phenomenal and dynamic, and with more permanence than three college basketball games.
I could write more, but I'll truncate my thoughts here to let you all digest, and so I can get to work. |
Vintagesoul
Member
Username: Vintagesoul
Post Number: 47
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 8:19 am: | |
well good morning everyone... =)
oakmangirl i went off to do my lousy accounting homework so sorry i didn't get to your post sooner.
i think sporting events and other events for that matter are key to getting those little projects moved up on the roster i guess. i think that we have seen evidence of businesses opening sooner in order to take advantage of the increased foot traffic, and i don't see anything wrong with that.
however, i will agree with both you and dan in that we do need a long term plan. i wish our mayor had some sort of open forum and cared to listen to the citizens and what their needs and wants are. i wish that from the smallest problem to the biggest problem there was someone in that office who cared. right now, i don't really see that being the case.
it's rather unfortunate because when there's a building in my neighborhood that needs to be demo'd it doesn't happen, which results in a structurally unsound haven for drug users/transients/rodents and other problems. not to mention the poor folks who have to live directly next to that thing when i'm far enough away i don't have to look at it. still bothers me, though.
what i'm trying to say is that the root of the problem isn't the people so much as it is the government we've elected. i don't know enough about politics to say much more than that, but i would hope some would agree with me that kwame is not the right person for the job and that's just where it starts. you can go on down through all the ranks, all the different branches of our city government and find instances of corruption (not necessarily corrupt people but sometimes that too) and imho too much nepotism. i don't feel like much is going to be accomplished until there is some housecleaning.
that's just how i feel. that's why i do what i can because i can't control anyone else except myself. i do what i can and i try to influence others because if i can convert a person to come downtown vs. going to the suburbs then i feel as though i have accomplished something. when i make a purchase and support a local business then i feel like i'm helping them to stay in the city. nothing makes me feel better than supporting another person helping another human being who has the same wants and desires and needs that i do.
i'm getting a little rambly, and i want to finish up by saying that i do think we don't have enough money in the city, and that i don't think we spend what we have very wisely. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3267
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 8:24 am: | |
Frankly, I think 2nd-Term Kwame has a better idea of what to do than Dennis Archer. Kwame's at least studying mass transit (egads!) and his neighborhood redevelopment plan, focusing on six particular neighborhoods, seems like a step in the right direction. Archer just kept playing the casino/stadium card over and over again, and prayed something would happen. |
Downtown_remix
Member
Username: Downtown_remix
Post Number: 484
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 8:24 am: | |
Detroits economics are unique campared to other major cities. We truly cant offord to be picky as to how monies will trickle into our fabric. Lets not forget, we were battered by massive hurricans and ripped to shreads from those b52 bombers from Mars. (thats my answer when asked "What the hell happen here) Every time an organizer decides Detroit will house there event, its a win/win for the city. Major development are discussed and considered when organizers decide to hold an event in a particular city; availabe hotel space, other entertainment, dining choices. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3268
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 8:27 am: | |
quote:Detroits economics are unique campared to other major cities.
Explain. |
Vintagesoul
Member
Username: Vintagesoul
Post Number: 48
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 8:33 am: | |
dan i don't know if i can totally agree with that. i guess i feel that no one should get a second chance when they really make a mess the first time. (this is a tangent to the current white house inhabitant as well and to how badly things could have possibly gone with kwame as a comparison). i voted for hendrix. i met with the man, and i thought there was definitely some hope there.
as for archer, the only thing i can say about that is he did what he could in one term, and i think that since he did pretty well in that one term i would have been happy to give him a second chance to see what was beyond the casinos. especially because that whole project was chaos and it took a while to iron out the details. in all fairness i think the owners really weren't straight with him in the first place and that he was only trying to fix things that he didn't break.
by far, i think he had the most positive vision for detroit where i feel that kwame was put in place by his mother and he abused (and still abuses) his powers because he was too young. i still don't like the image he portrays and i don't agree with his priorities.
and don't get too excited about the mass transit. that's been on the burner for so long now i stopped holding my breath.... when it happens, then i will throw a party. |
Downtown_remix
Member
Username: Downtown_remix
Post Number: 486
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 9:10 am: | |
the difference in our economics is WE DONT HAVE ANY. |
Michigan
Member
Username: Michigan
Post Number: 1108
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 9:31 am: | |
LOL Downtown |
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