  Yvette248 Member Username: Yvette248 Post Number: 686 Registered: 10-2006 |
"Detroit Zoo Director Ron Kagan could be disciplined or fired after acknowledging that he was never granted the doctorate degree in zoology that has appeared on his resume for years, Zoo Society Chairman Gail Warden said today." STUPID, STUPID, STUPID, STUPID! Okay, so slap his hand (or spank his fanny) for "tweaking" his resume. But can he do the d@mn job or not??? | ||
Smogboy Member Username: Smogboy Post Number: 5544 Registered: 11-2004 |
This is what happens to a society that solely relies on what their pedigree says as opposed to the work that they do. | ||
Ray1936 Member Username: Ray1936 Post Number: 1576 Registered: 01-2005 |
I dunno. Lying on a resume or job app is a cardinal sin. No pun intended. Just entering erroneous dates of employment is bad, but to claim a doctorate when you don't have it is just asking to be canned. I don't care if he can do the job or not; he has shown major character weakness. Off with his head. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 745 Registered: 01-2005 |
...but torture him first. | ||
Smogboy Member Username: Smogboy Post Number: 5545 Registered: 11-2004 |
True Ray... it is a serious no-no. I just wish that when he applied for the job he would've been upfront as well. I'd also like to think that the people that hired Kagan just didn't go off of who has a degree and who doesn't. Yeah, he could be canned and justifiably so too. | ||
Yvette248 Member Username: Yvette248 Post Number: 691 Registered: 10-2006 |
People pad their resumes because THEY NEED A JOB and employers habitually focus on non-essential pedigrees rather than the ability to do the job. If it truly is a "cardinal sin" to need to feed your family, a whole bunch of us would be in hell. (Message edited by yvette248 on June 28, 2007) | ||
Angry_dad Member Username: Angry_dad Post Number: 153 Registered: 02-2006 |
Too bad elected officials never seem to lose "their" job when they don't do what they take credit for. | ||
Detroitej72 Member Username: Detroitej72 Post Number: 581 Registered: 05-2006 |
Great, it only took the city what, about 2 years to hire Gramm Beal as the DIA' director after they let Sam Sachs leave. At the time it reflected poorly on the institute. Think how competent our city will look if it takes half as long to find Kagan's replacement. Perhaps replacing Kagan be quicker now that the city no longer manages the zoo? | ||
Andysrc Member Username: Andysrc Post Number: 186 Registered: 07-2005 |
Yvette248 - Who said it was a "cardinal sin" to need to feed your family? All I saw was when Ray said it was a cardinal sin to lie on your resume. Lying on your resume and needing to feed your family are two different things. If you believe they are the same thing, is it ok to lie to get to the top? To cheat? To steal? We're not talking about a guy who stole a loaf of bread to feed his family. It's a zoo director who lied about receiving a doctorate degree. My guess is that he did not resort to every other honest possibility to find a job. Did he apply for jobs that did not require a degree? Construction? Food service? Part of me wants to say, who cares, as long as he can do the job. But at the same time, lying about something like this is a serious character flaw. Would you want someone working for you who did a great job, but had a habit of stealing cars? It makes you wonder what else they're willing to fudge on. | ||
Gdub Member Username: Gdub Post Number: 1119 Registered: 10-2003 |
I used to work at the Zoo, and Kagan was great at his job as far as I could tell. He didn't seem like the type who would need to pad his resume like that, as he was both a good manager and a compassionate zoologist. It's quite a shock to hear about this, really. At this point I don't think it makes sense to send him packing, given the relationships he's forged with the people who keep the place going. | ||
Waz Member Username: Waz Post Number: 96 Registered: 11-2006 |
Hey angry_dad, remember Steve Duschene, the city manager of Sterling Heights? He got busted for lying about even having a degree. But in today's forgiving society, he ended up with a similar position in a downriver city; I want to say Allen Park. | ||
Kid_dynamite Member Username: Kid_dynamite Post Number: 61 Registered: 06-2007 |
does anybody residing in Allen Park have a college degree? | ||
Bvos Member Username: Bvos Post Number: 2204 Registered: 10-2003 |
He's in Lincoln Park. With Steve Duschene, even the people who had to fire him said he was very qualified and did an outstanding job. He unfortunately thought he had to puff up his resume when applying for the job. The Council members felt they had no choice but to fire him given the lies he told at the beginning. However they had no problems with his performance. Lincoln Park quickly snatched up Duschene after he was forced out at Sterling Heights. He's doing an outstanding job there and is actually becoming a respected leader throughout the Downriver community. I think Ron Kagan is in a similar position: He's done an absolutely outstanding job bringing the zoo back from the brink of disaster and continues to show innovative leadership. It would be a great loss to the Detroit Zoo to loose Kagan. However he did lie on his resume and that creates a big cloud of mistrust over everything he does. The big question for the zoo will be "is there another Kagan we can quickly recruit?" If so I think Ron is a goner. | ||
Waz Member Username: Waz Post Number: 97 Registered: 11-2006 |
What is it with you, Kid? I didn't come here to slam entire town, or even to make a *joke*. That was pretty immature. What overeducated burg do you come from? | ||
Bob_cosgrove Member Username: Bob_cosgrove Post Number: 551 Registered: 03-2005 |
Maybe a lack of education is why Kagan exiled our elephants, locked up our fallow deer in the closed Belle Isle Zoo and so on. Regarding the elephants - where can kids see, experience and learn about real elephants now? Ringling Brothers, Barnum & Bailey Combined Shows? | ||
Kid_dynamite Member Username: Kid_dynamite Post Number: 64 Registered: 06-2007 |
Waz, that was a joke. sorry to bunch-up your panties | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2379 Registered: 06-2004 |
The overemphasis on formal collegiate education is part of what's creating the income gaps in society. There are very capable people who, for one reason or another (usually financial) didn't have a chance to go to school but could have aced everything if they did. On the other hand I've seen some people with major education credentials not know basic, everyday fundamentals. I have a grad degree but spent years working with people who had at most one or two years of college or tech school - some of them really resented professionals who threw their degrees around. I distinctly remember a design engineer who debated a mechanic over whether or not a part could fail a certain way - until the mechanic took the assembly in question apart and showed the guy. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 747 Registered: 01-2005 |
Interesting that nobody on here has cast any stones at the yo-yo's who hired him in the first place. It would seem that if a PhD was essential to the job, someone might want to verify he has one, read his dissertation, and check him (or anyone) out fairly thoroughly. The fact they didn't implies to me that a PhD was not essential to the job and the City only thought it would be window dressing for the public. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 2470 Registered: 12-2005 |
quote:Yes, I've been dazzled by a few of those too. I knew a guy who would dumpster dive around high-tech industrial areas for parts. At the time he was "unemployable" yet he would use those parts to build microscopes better than any commercial microscope I have ever used. Who hired this Zoo Director and did they neglect to verify his credentials? | ||
Yvette248 Member Username: Yvette248 Post Number: 693 Registered: 10-2006 |
Better question: Why is he being fired if he is the best zoo manager we've had in years? Discipline? Yes. Fire? Can someone spell stoopid? | ||
Ro_resident Member Username: Ro_resident Post Number: 256 Registered: 11-2003 |
A similar story comes to light every 6 months or so. The Dean of Admissions at MIT got busted for fabricating degrees on her resume earlier this year, too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M arilee_Jones The moral of the story, don't make up stuff on your resume. Especially stuff that can be verified. | ||
Tiberius Member Username: Tiberius Post Number: 8 Registered: 06-2007 |
The position he holds is a position of trust. Lying on your application violates that trust. Once exposed, how could you believe anything he says? You need to have confidence in individuals in leadership positions. | ||
321brian Member Username: 321brian Post Number: 379 Registered: 02-2006 |
I love the CMU radio ads Duschene is doing now. | ||
Detroitej72 Member Username: Detroitej72 Post Number: 582 Registered: 05-2006 |
Bobcosgrove said: Maybe a lack of education is why Kagan exiled our elephants, locked up our fallow deer in the closed Belle Isle Zoo and so on. ______________________________ ___________________ No, he was very educated in seeing that the zoo's facilities were inadequate in caring for the elephants, and thus sent them to a far better sanctuary for them to live out thier lives. As for the Belle Isle deer, they were destroying many native plants. He wanted to cull the heard, but many bunny-huggers pressured the city, so rather then send much of the heard to a farm up north, they have been confined to the old zoo. | ||
Zephyrprocess Member Username: Zephyrprocess Post Number: 428 Registered: 08-2006 |
quote: But that's a gatekeeper position for an institution with a vested interest in promoting the value of college degrees. They cannot afford to say, "That's OK, maybe you don't need a degree to do this kind of job." It might be similar if Kagan were convicted of destroying habitat for an endangered species in order to build a cottage up north. | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 1467 Registered: 12-2005 |
Bring back the elephants (give them new digs--Toledo and Cleveland still have elephants) bring back the chimp show--we have used our membership five times this year and have yet to see a chimp. When you do they are usually giving the kiddies a little biology lesson "Mommy, what are they doing?" Never saw that in the chimp show. | ||
Kid_dynamite Member Username: Kid_dynamite Post Number: 69 Registered: 06-2007 |
LOL 56packman. I saw the kangaroos putting on their own little show last summer. they were not shy! (Message edited by kid dynamite on June 28, 2007) (Message edited by kid dynamite on June 28, 2007) | ||
Bob_cosgrove Member Username: Bob_cosgrove Post Number: 552 Registered: 03-2005 |
Is you believe the elephants are better out of town instead of using the vast expanse of the Detroit Zoo or that the fallow deer were destroying Belle Isle, I've got bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. | ||
Why Member Username: Why Post Number: 40 Registered: 04-2007 |
Just another example of overrated FOR profit "educational institutions", hence the billboards that started popping up all over the freeways about 10 years ago. I know of Ford "engineers" striving for their masters degrees via Phoenix University's "online" program. I literally laughed when I saw the new "degree" requirements that are now the standard for a industry that I was involved in years ago (nothing in a book could possibly train you for that line of business). MSU is pumping out grads for this field on a daily basis. Plain and simple, a high school education of yesterday is a four year college education of today - all in the name of money, money, money money - sing along with the O'Jays people.. You'll see more and more people lying on resumes. | ||
Detroitej72 Member Username: Detroitej72 Post Number: 598 Registered: 05-2006 |
Bob_cosgrove Member Username: Bob_cosgrove Post Number: 552 Registered: 03-2005 Posted on Thursday, June 28, 2007 - 11:50 pm: ------------------------------ ------------------------------ -------------------- Is you believe the elephants are better out of town instead of using the vast expanse of the Detroit Zoo or that the fallow deer were destroying Belle Isle, I've got bridge in Brooklyn to sell you ______________________________ ___________________ Bob, I think you may want to reread your post, as it makes no sense. I assume you are sad that the elephants have left town. That said, If your not a "bunny hugger", than I'm sure you would want to see all the animals in a better environment, a more natural setting. | ||
Bob_cosgrove Member Username: Bob_cosgrove Post Number: 554 Registered: 03-2005 |
Dear Detroitj72, I am interested in the elephants welfare. There was adequate room at the Zoo to expand their habitat. If you don't think there's adequate unused space for expanding the elephant habitat, why not reforest Rachkam Golf Course and let them roam there. Poor humor aside, the educational value the elephants offered Zoo visitors of all ages is gone, at least until we get a more enlightened Zoo Director. To keep two elephants is closer captivity at the Zoo than where they are now in the opinion of many Detroiters was a poor decision. It satisfied only the, who are the the far far right of the enviromental movement. Bob Cosgrove | ||
Smogboy Member Username: Smogboy Post Number: 5546 Registered: 11-2004 |
Bob, what's with your obsession with the two elephants or any elephants at the Zoo? We don't have lots of other animals that other zoos have but that doesn't necessarily make our zoo a lesser one. If one were that interested in Winky and Wanda, why not go out to California where they're living out their days in a much larger environment and probably cared for better? There's educational value in ALL of the animals there and educational value in animals that aren't here as well. I understand the educational value of having an actual subject here to view but it's not like we, the public could ever touch or get close enough to the actual animals to understand their diets, care, feeding, maintenance, breeding, gestation, etc.. | ||
Ja1mz Member Username: Ja1mz Post Number: 54 Registered: 02-2007 |
Put him in his own exhibit at the zoo for punishment...have it set up like an office, and have a PC with just a resume making program running on it, kind of like a diorama of the offending scene...feed him the same zoo food patrons have to eat.... | ||
The_rock Member Username: The_rock Post Number: 1801 Registered: 11-2003 |
The only fair and democratic way to handle this so-called scandal is to let the animals vote on it. | ||
Mw2gs Member Username: Mw2gs Post Number: 267 Registered: 03-2005 |
He lied about holding a Doctorate and having specific research experience which one can only obtain thru a PhD program. He didnt have full credentials in the various zoological societies and access to their vast resources...why? He didnt have his PhD. He didnt have access to the various national and international funding sources set up specifically for working zoologists...why? He didnt have his PhD. He couldnt call on his nationally and internationally renowned zoologist friends for expertise or even to exchange knowledge or services.....why? He wasnt one of them. All of which could have been beneficial to the Detroit Zoo. But this "long time director", who has been lying for years, should not be fired immediately? How could anyone in their right mind formulate the words to apologize or sympathize with this guy? Where is the outrage? I wonder how many qualified applicants he was able to pass to get the job. Talk about double standards | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 1509 Registered: 06-2006 |
Padding a resume is one thing...everyone wants to cast themselves in the best possible light to prospective employers...but flat out lying on your resume is quite another... I doubt he would have ever been hired in the first place but for his deception regarding educational background... I say get rid of the guy and get someone who has such a doctorate...I doubt they'll do any worse at the job that this guy, and will probably do better... also, there are a limited number of these zoology jobs available...they should go to people who have actually studied this stuff, and not to people who lie about having studied it | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 812 Registered: 10-2003 |
The thing I don't understand is he said he went through the classes in Israel, but didn't get the degree for some technical reasons and "Forgot to take it off". Forgot to take it off? Why was it ever on? That doesn't make any sense at all. You don't put you have a PhD on your resume while attending classes for it. | ||
Civilprotectionunit4346 Member Username: Civilprotectionunit4346 Post Number: 141 Registered: 06-2007 |
I think what happened was bad & that he should have mentioned he didn't get his doctirine in Zoology. If this person has worked this long without, they should just give a slap on the wrist, and make him get his degree, but still let him work the job. I really hate how society has got to this status quoe thing with if you don't have a degree you can't get this job. Im not saying a college degree is a bad thing, just that if you have worked in that field prior for a certain amount of years you should be the prime candidate for the job. I really hope that something good will become of this mess and that this said person will still retain there job. | ||
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa Post Number: 1568 Registered: 11-2003 |
He did the coursework, he just didn't have a second advisor's signature on his thesis. | ||
Civilprotectionunit4346 Member Username: Civilprotectionunit4346 Post Number: 143 Registered: 06-2007 |
Shoot get the signature and let the guy keep his job...This seems to got blow out of perspective way to much. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 814 Registered: 10-2003 |
I don't know, something smells fishy and it's not the Penguin exhibit. All that work? PhD level classes? And he just doesn't get a signature? I'm pretty sure after all that work I wouldn't leave without that degree in my hand to show for it. | ||
Lizaanne Member Username: Lizaanne Post Number: 93 Registered: 06-2007 |
Just a bit of a teaching moment for those who feel it is funny or cute to make jokes about Cardinals - a cardinal sin is only one of the seven deadly sins. It has nothing to do with Catholic Cardinals. Cardinal refers to a basic or primary value. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C ardinal_Sin ~Liza | ||
Yvette248 Member Username: Yvette248 Post Number: 695 Registered: 10-2006 |
When I'm working on a degree, I also put it on my resume before I get it also (along with the date expected). Getting a PhD is a long and lengthy process that requires significant jumps through hoops. If he truly didn't get the second advisor to sign off on his thesis, its probably because: a) The professor was not available when he was there. b) The professor wanted him to make significant changes to his dissertation. I agree with the news article. You don't just throw good people away because they made a mistake or error in judgment. He is already publicly humiliated. Give him an appropriate sanction and move on (maybe a reduction in pay for the reduced education :-) |
