  Hunchentoot Member Username: Hunchentoot Post Number: 49 Registered: 03-2005 |
I haven't been able to find information on this but I remember reading about it. Is this to be? Any details, if so? | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 10354 Registered: 10-2003 |
Last I saw the city, State and Corktown organizations were still working to determine the best solution for Michigan Avenue. | ||
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 4198 Registered: 10-2003 |
Leave the bricks. | ||
Hunchentoot Member Username: Hunchentoot Post Number: 50 Registered: 03-2005 |
Even without the needed light rail down the middle of the road, there is great potential in a narrowing of the street. I seem to remember reading in something that Howard Kunstler wrote of a 12-lane street in France comprised of two medians with express traffic on the inner lanes and local traffic on the outer lanes, plus parking on all sides, that is, six lanes of parking. The medians made the street easy to cross, the traffic could still be fast in the middle, the cars could still stop often on the outside, and the abundance of car spaces buffered pedestrians from motor traffic and eliminated the need for parking lots completely. And recently I listened to a lecture about traffic design in Copenhagen. When a downtown road gets too choked with cars they narrow it further and force people to find another route. Also there are bike lanes with their own curbs and light systems, completely separating them from the motor or pedestrian traffic. And a bike can be had for a $3 deposit. Put down $3, get a bike, go where you need to go, return it elsewhere, get your $3 back. I think the Washington Boulevard design with its four lanes of parking would go a long way to reducing the need for other parking blights. Let's have some more streets like Washington if we can't get dedicated bike lanes and French double-medians. And yes, keep the bricks. | ||
Spiritofdetroit Member Username: Spiritofdetroit Post Number: 608 Registered: 11-2006 |
very interesting, hunchentoot. its too bad a similar bike scenario wouldnt work here in detroit | ||
Hunchentoot Member Username: Hunchentoot Post Number: 51 Registered: 03-2005 |
I think the majority of good-urbanism plans would work in Detroit. Almost all of them will work. But they seem impossible when all that exists are crass variations on highways. Let's be steadfast with our baby steps and maybe our kids will be putting in the lights for the bike lanes if they haven't moved away. Well, I'm not going to have any kids, so I'd be happy if we hurried up, too. | ||
Hunchentoot Member Username: Hunchentoot Post Number: 52 Registered: 03-2005 |
Maybe I'll even learn how to ride a bike. | ||
Ray1936 Member Username: Ray1936 Post Number: 2021 Registered: 01-2005 |
Michigan Avenue was widened in the 1920s from downtown to West Grand Boulevard. If you look at the street today, you'll notice Victorian buildings on the north side of Michigan from downtown to around 14th Street. Then from there the Victorian buildings are on the south side of the street with newer structures on the north. You'll also note that Michigan makes a little jog at the I-96. Prior to the widening, the old 19th century buildings graced both sides. | ||
Fishtoes2000 Member Username: Fishtoes2000 Post Number: 307 Registered: 06-2005 |
quote: Chicago is looking at implementing a similar system. http://www.chicagotribune.com/ news/nationworld/chi-daley-bik esep12,1,810922.story Imagine rental bikes distributed between Midtown (Amtrak), Wayne State, Campus Martius, Eastern Market, and Belle Isle, the Riverwalk, etc. Would it work? It just might. My only fear would be the scrappers. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 823 Registered: 12-2006 |
Fish, Chicago has hundreds of miles of streets with bike lanes, and Detroit has zero. We sort of have to work on infrastructure a wee bit before we'll get lots of bicyclists in the City. Ferndale has more miles of bike lanes than Detroit. Still, not a bad idea, and doable. We need someone who works for the City to get behind it. I know a guy in Ann Arbor who could trick up the details for the whole thing. And it's not expensive to fix the infrastructure in this way; it is an example of what the highway peeps call "moving paint". | ||
Pete Member Username: Pete Post Number: 97 Registered: 10-2003 |
Professorscott, you have no idea what you are talking about. Detroit has THREE FULL BLOCKS of bike lanes along Atwater from the Renaissance Center to the east. Granted, you can't ride your bike in them because there are usually taxis parked in the lane, but still, that's THREE FULL BLOCKS! I think that for a city of Detroit's size, three full blocks is a perfectly reasonable length of bike lane. And if not, do people really ride their bike more than three blocks anyway? | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 1784 Registered: 10-2006 |
Instead of looking overseas at examples of narrowing roads, it's a simple as looking at what happened to downtown Ferndale when Nine Mile was narrowed. | ||
Fishtoes2000 Member Username: Fishtoes2000 Post Number: 308 Registered: 06-2005 |
quote: No, you're wrong. Detroit has slightly more bike lanes than Ferndale on the ground today. Ferndale may add another mile in the future, but that's it. Detroit has many more miles of bike lanes in the planning and development stages. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1733 Registered: 04-2006 |
They do that bike rental thing on Mackinac Island too. | ||
Detourdetroit Member Username: Detourdetroit Post Number: 342 Registered: 10-2003 |
ah...graceful buildings! what a concept!•• | ||
Gsgeorge Member Username: Gsgeorge Post Number: 210 Registered: 08-2006 |
Just to clarify something-- Do you mean "narrowing the road" as in adding wider sidewalks, bike lanes, and parking (and therefore fewer driving lanes)? OR do you mean actually NARROWING the road width, bringing the buildings on the south side of the street closer to those on the north, and creating a more walkable thoroughfare? (Message edited by gsgeorge on October 03, 2007) | ||
Fishtoes2000 Member Username: Fishtoes2000 Post Number: 309 Registered: 06-2005 |
A common term for narrowing the roads is "road diet." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R oad_diet From what I've seen, they do not involve narrowing the public right-of-way and selling it to nearby land owners. However, if a road diet allowed wider sidewalks, it may make outdoor seating areas possible. (Message edited by fishtoes2000 on October 03, 2007) | ||
None Member Username: None Post Number: 93 Registered: 07-2007 |
Thats just wrong Corktown is where it all began, I get such a feeling of peace and interconnectivity with those before me standing in Roosevelt park taking it all in walking the streets a hundred years old and all the people and things that have passed before It's like she calls to me in her broken down grander the MCS standing so defiantly so proudly amongst the bustling city, calling us back to a simpler time where we celebrated the can do attitude with cathedrals to our vitality and strength Mark my words, Roosevelt park will be the red carpet for the revitalization for our home, one can not stand in front of the MCS and not feel our forefathers calling to us, Stand up this is the road we paved for you and it is grand continue on unimpeded by the struggles it took us to get here, Be Free to explore the road further farther and grander than ours, fore this is our gift to you. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 829 Registered: 12-2006 |
Fish, Where does Detroit have any bike lanes on the ground today? And with regard to Detroit, anything in the planning stage I consider to be irrelevant. We've had rapid transit in the planning stage for the past seventy years. Doesn't mean anything. Prof. Scott | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 149 Registered: 09-2007 |
Didn't Gratiot receive a slight (virtually unnoticed) shortening because of the widening lanes? Does anyone have the factual info on the point of shortening Michigan Ave.? | ||
Aiw Member Username: Aiw Post Number: 6396 Registered: 10-2003 |
The bike rental would never be feasible. For $3.00 it's not worth your while to return the bike. I'm not sure where you got that figure from, but most bike rental places in Paris charge anywhere from 250-1000 Euro deposits. http://www.parisvelosympa.com/ GB/index.html http://www.paris-velo-rent-a-b ike.fr/htgb/rent_bike.htm Copenhagen 500-1000 DKK ($100-200 approx) http://www.rentabike.dk/Englis h/prices.htm | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 1928 Registered: 11-2003 |
None -- As Ray1936 mentions, Michigan Avenue was WIDENED in the 1920's, and the MCS was built in 1913. So if anything, the MCS should be "calling to you" to narrow it back to its original width, to help revitalize the area. Detroit has already been ruined enough by putting traffic capacity over all other concerns, it's time to fix things and give pedestrians, businesses and neighborhoods a chance. | ||
Dds Member Username: Dds Post Number: 376 Registered: 10-2006 |
quote: As far as I know, US 12 still goes from Detroit, MI to Aberdeen, WA. Not any shorter. | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 151 Registered: 09-2007 |
...In width? | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 152 Registered: 09-2007 |
"Detroit has already been ruined enough by putting traffic capacity over all other concerns, it's time to fix things and give pedestrians, businesses and neighborhoods a chance." Cities across the nation would kill to have Detroit's Traffic. We have some of the best street grids around (besides Chicago). So I'm glad we have the streets we have now. If only they built them with other friendly aspects beside cars. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 2901 Registered: 10-2003 |
Sounds like a waste of money to me. You need somewhere for pedestrians to go before you worry about giving them a way to walk there. Right now you have an abandoned rail station, an abandoned stadium, a Lager House that doesn't have local garage bands anymore, and Slow's BBQ. . Narrowing 9 mile in Ferndale was a successful idea, but Ferndale was already picking up. Simply narrowing the streets did not make a bunch of businesses open, a bunch of people park curbside, and walk up and down the sidewalk. It only compounded an effect that was already happening. | ||
None Member Username: None Post Number: 96 Registered: 07-2007 |
Dougw I agree 100%, it was only after my post did I realize the irony after I spewed this gem; Stand up this is the road we paved for you and it is grand continue on unimpeded by the struggles it took us to get here, Be Free to explore the road further farther and grander than ours, fore this is our gift to you. It is exactly the road they paved that lead Corktown into lean times | ||
Kbkav Member Username: Kbkav Post Number: 250 Registered: 10-2003 |
The plan for Michigan Ave. is to widen and enhance the sidewalks, provide one lane of parking and one bike lane in both directions, two lanes of traffic in both directions and a left-turn lane. It is on MDOT's docket for 2010 last I heard. The project boundaries are M10 and I96. The roadbed will be pressed, stamped concrete - brick-colored except for bike lanes and crosswalks, which will contrast. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 10366 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Rest assured MDOT will bump this to widen an M-XX road in an area that they expect growth. If it comes to MDOT funding it shoudl be done sometime between 2020 and never, probably closer to never. How can they spend money on roads here when places like Hartland need better roads? | ||
Dds Member Username: Dds Post Number: 378 Registered: 10-2006 |
quote: Since when are there only 2 businesses on Michigan Ave? | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 10367 Registered: 10-2003 |
Every time I have left LJs I needed wider sidewalks.  | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 157 Registered: 09-2007 |
They're really nothing outside the usual that will grip the attention of People is what he's saying. | ||
Fishtoes2000 Member Username: Fishtoes2000 Post Number: 310 Registered: 06-2005 |
quote: MacArthur Bridge, Belle Isle and the piddly amount along Atwater. quote: By the way, I said in "planning and development." Upcoming bike lane projects include Michigan Avenue through Corktown as Kelly mentioned, Michigan Avenue east of Corktown (which will probably be completed sooner according to MDOT), and the Midtown Greenway. Although I haven't seen the plans, I suspect the Atwater bike lanes will be extended east as well in the near future. As far as I know, MDOT and the City of Detroit are still discussing/considering bike lane options on Gratiot near Eastern Market and Fort Street. These projects are much more relevant that just lines on a map. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 2905 Registered: 10-2003 |
"They're really nothing outside the usual that will grip the attention of People is what he's saying." That is indeed what I am saying. I did not include the gas stations and brake shops. | ||
Detourdetroit Member Username: Detourdetroit Post Number: 343 Registered: 10-2003 |
Hey KelliBKav. I'm glad you responded. I realize that there are infrastructural issues with Michigan that need to be addressed and that a reconfiguration with wider sidewalks and bike lanes sounds great. However, is MDOT amenable to relaying the existing bricks or reusing them in some meaningful capacity. Such a project would really be an image builder for MDOT. It's ironic that while the bricks are not in the best of shape due to undermaintenance, they have worn very well - certainly better than the recent concrete and asphalt replacements of Grand River or Woodward. The bumpiest part of the road bed is over the blacktopped rail bed! It is sad that they are proposed to be replaced with brick-colored concrete. I wonder how repairs will look. Save the Bricks!•• | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 833 Registered: 12-2006 |
Fishtoes, Sorry for the cynicism, but around here I don't believe in any project until I see it on the ground. I'll back up one step: once I see bulldozers I believe a project is real. Anyone planning bike lanes near the Universities in the City? WSU, UDM? Seems like an obvious choice IMVHO. | ||
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa Post Number: 1718 Registered: 11-2003 |
Come on dude, there's more than gas stations and brake shops on Michigan Ave. Look around, there's the Zeitgeist, there are a ton of bars, there are places to eat, there are barber shops, there are apartments, condos... not even including the stuff that's off Michigan Ave like... yanno... neighborhoods where people live and stuff. | ||
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine Post Number: 1834 Registered: 05-2005 |
detourdetroit, what i remember about this plan is that relaying the existing bricks was far too labor intesive to be remotely possible from a cost perspective. i'm sure KBK could correct me if i'm wrong though | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 2906 Registered: 10-2003 |
Ok, well I drive down Michigan Avenue and it's a ghost street at pretty much any time of day or night. And we are talking about spending the money to narrow a road, put in curbside parking, and expand the sidewalks, while in the middle of a terrible statewide budget fiasco. Either nobody is going to those businesses, or nobody is going from one of those business to another by means of foot. You can argue about what is or isn't there, and whether they are destinations for people all you want, until there are actually people walking there, it is a stupid idea and a waste of money we don't have. | ||
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa Post Number: 1719 Registered: 11-2003 |
The state is talking about doing it in 2010. As was said above, do you really think that it's going to happen? And if it does, I could honestly see that a lot of people who live in or around Corktown and Downtown would consider riding their bikes to and fro. Whether they actually do it, who knows? I do understand your pessimism. I've personally never seen a single person in the bike lanes in Ferndale. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 10369 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Do you have any idea how much money MDOT wastes on stupid ideas? They are creating miles of walls to separate the freeway from homes to cut down on noise. Mind you these are along freeways like 94 and 75 that have been there much longer than the homes. If MDOT is going to piss away money on projects that aren't necessary I would like to see some of it come to improvement projects in the city. Until they quit wasting money I will hope they waste some money here. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 2907 Registered: 10-2003 |
A fair point Jt1. If they have to waste the money, I'm all for wasting it in the city. Susanarosa, there are a zillion bicycle riders in Ferndale. None of them are in the bicycle lanes. When you have tons of side streets with sidewalks on both sides and low traffic, you can pretty much get around town without ever hopping onto a main street. | ||
Kbkav Member Username: Kbkav Post Number: 251 Registered: 10-2003 |
Gravitymachine, you are correct. Everyone went into this multi-year planning effort with the goal of using real brick. The cost of installing actual brick or re-using the existing ones was huge - I don't want to give a number because it would be a memory-stab - but it was a deal-breaker, let's put it that way. There were also maintenance issues. Neither MDOT nor the city will maintain brick and leaving that up to the neighborhood organization was just not an option logistically. As much as I love those bricks, the business owners on Michigan have been clamoring for a new road and systemized parking for a long time. As have the residents, which I guarantee spend more ducats on shocks than anyone else in the city. I took some time investigating the concrete product and it is actually much nicer than I initially imagined. The concrete is dyed all-the-way through, unlike many other similar products and is cut on-site after being poured. When all is said and done, it will be a really nice stretch of road. And John, no matter a budget crisis or no, there are federal transportation funds that need to be used for these type of project and are planned out years in advance. The road's historic status means that MDOT is not allowed to simply pave it over. And traffic counts bear that the road does not need to be nine lanes wide, and their width is not to current AASHTO standards. Put all of those factors together and you end up with the project as described. | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 1785 Registered: 10-2006 |
"And we are talking about spending the money to narrow a road, put in curbside parking, and expand the sidewalks, while in the middle of a terrible statewide budget fiasco." Argument is that that portion of Michigan Ave will have to undergo a major reconstruction in the near future. The cost difference for the width will probably be negligible in the overall cost (wider versus narrower). Might as well kill as many birds as you can with one stone and make it driveable for cars and walkable for humans. | ||
None Member Username: None Post Number: 99 Registered: 07-2007 |
I'll learn to do the brick my self, there is no way in hell anybody is going to ruin an architectural gem like that, whilst I'm still breathing. Corktown is in my soul, my family started our journey there so many generations ago, The place is literately my Soul | ||
Parkguy Member Username: Parkguy Post Number: 123 Registered: 04-2007 |
Some kudos to kbkav right off the bat-- I think the recent improvements on Michigan really make the street look good (not that there isn't more to be done...). Anything you and the CDC put into the plans are appreciated, even by those of us who don't live in the neighborhood. To address the narrowing of the street, that is one of several moves that would enhance traffic patterns. Some of the improvements have already been done. Traffic calming (one of my pet causes) is the next logical step. There has been SIGNIFICANT business investment and development in the area over the last few years, and each and every little step promises to bring more of the same. There is no single magic bullet, but a lot of little efforts will deliver results that will be much greater in the long run. | ||
Andylinn Member Username: Andylinn Post Number: 567 Registered: 04-2006 |
the bike rental could totally work... I used the bike rental in copenhagen... think shopping cart deposit at ALDI. All you'd need to do here would be increase the deposit... maybe at certain times of the day, you could buy a $20 or $30 token... and you could return the token for your money back if you wanted... you can build a pretty cheap bike... I bet you could buy half decent bikes wholesale for no more than $50. just have to make sure that the amount of the deposit was an amount that people would REALLY REALLY want back... especially scrappers... (you could always make them fiberglass frames, BTW... | ||
Fishtoes2000 Member Username: Fishtoes2000 Post Number: 311 Registered: 06-2005 |
quote: The Midtown Greenway Loop will run along Cass, Canfield, John R and Warren Avenues. The bulldozers aren't out yet but they have received considerable grant funding. quote: I've got to stop wearing my invisible outfit. ;) Their use has been underwhelming but I think that's due in large part to the lack on continuity on both ends. I think we'd see much higher use if the lanes continued north and south providing easy access to places like Downtown Royal Oak, Downtown Clawson, the Boys and Girls Club, the State Fair, Green Acres, Palmer Park, etc. | ||
Hunchentoot Member Username: Hunchentoot Post Number: 53 Registered: 03-2005 |
To be specific, I heard about the Copenhagen streets from a lecture given by Jan Gehl. Here it is! http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.go v.au/podcasts/citytalks/CityTa lks_JanGehl_20070911.mp3 Andylinn: is my $3 figure wrong? If so, my apologies to all. But the concept is still strong. Little steps and traffic calming, as Parkguy says. Kbkav: Thanks for the answer, I'll be moving to your neighborhood this month! If the bricks are really going to go, they should be reused in some way even if it isn't for a road. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 835 Registered: 12-2006 |
Fish, If you're involved with the planning of this you need to get in touch with Norm Cox of Ann Arbor. He is the single most experienced professional locally with regard to bikeway development. He has a company, the Greenway Collaborative, with a web site (smack the two words together, erase "orative", put a www and a .com on it, and you're there). Regionally, we are in the dark ages with regard to accommodating bicyclists. An obvious and inexpensive thing to fix. I agree with you, continuity is king. Prof. Scott | ||
Fishtoes2000 Member Username: Fishtoes2000 Post Number: 312 Registered: 06-2005 |
I'm not involved in the Midtown planning, but I know Norm Cox very well. I spoke with him last week. BTW, Todd Scott = "Fishtoes" | ||
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 4201 Registered: 10-2003 |
The core of Detroit is excellent for bicycling even with out biking lanes. Due to reduced traffic, first the rise of the expressways and later by population shift, the roads are wide but relatively lightly used. Biking Michigan or Woodward is relatively stress-free by weaving in and out of the mostly empty parking lanes. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 836 Registered: 12-2006 |
Lowell, that works great for an experienced bicyclist, but not for the general public. If you would like to see more people out on bikes, you have to give them a place where they feel safe. On-street bike lanes are considered, by most professionals in the field, to be the best general purpose solution. I said "most", for those of you that disagree. I know not everyone agrees, and I've heard all the arguments pro and con. I'm giving the consensus here. Fish, from my handle I think you know who I am. I haven't had a chance to talk to Norm in a while. Back to Lowell: how do we connect the City so people can bike around in relative safety? Boy I wish somebody was working on this. | ||
Reddog289 Member Username: Reddog289 Post Number: 19 Registered: 08-2007 |
leave the bricks, bring back the trolley cars. and do something with the MCS, i see the point though how much parking does one need in an area with a empty ballpark and an empty train station, if the out lying buildings are empty and or under used, why create more parking for cars that won,t even be parking there. | ||
Fishtoes2000 Member Username: Fishtoes2000 Post Number: 313 Registered: 06-2005 |
Lowell, I'd suggest taking Second or Third Ave for even lower stress. The Detroit portions are 3-4 lanes, one-way, with ADTs (I'm estimating) under 3K. As for the Midtown Greenway which connects with Wayne State, it was supposed to be started this fall However, it's tied to a road project that has been delayed. Hopefully its construction will start in earnest early next year. | ||
Detroithabitater Member Username: Detroithabitater Post Number: 49 Registered: 10-2006 |
I would of liked this police station to be around that was at the corner of Trumbull and Michigan Ave.....the OTHER corner. Today it's this dinky awkward triangle  | ||
Detroithabitater Member Username: Detroithabitater Post Number: 50 Registered: 10-2006 |
 I've only seen maybe 2 pictures of it ever. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 5459 Registered: 08-2004 |
The only way any building could have been on that dinky site is if it was there before Michigan was widened, and then only if Michigan was widened to the south at that spot thus shrinking the triangular block by about 75%... And that may indeed be why it no longer exists! (Message edited by Gistok on October 04, 2007) | ||
Detroithabitater Member Username: Detroithabitater Post Number: 51 Registered: 10-2006 |
it's similar in construction to the castle police station near woodbridge. The only photo i've seen of it is in a Tiger Stadium history book saying "fans who got out of control were hauled off to the trumbull police station" |
