 
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 293
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 5:29 pm: |    |
No more roads will be blocked than are now blocked. 2nd currently dead ends into the rear of the Edison building and most of the other streets funnel into what use to be parking garages or out buildings.
You can see a bit of what they have going down on 3rd and plum street. They have an employee meditation garden there and believe it or not, it's pretty peaceful, a big surprize because you're right next to the freeway and Grand River Ave. |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 574
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 5:32 pm: | |
Hate to complain about green space, but this looks like the start of a suburban industrial park. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 1568
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 5:41 pm: | |
More designs from people who haven't the faintest idea what a city is. Sad. |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 294
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 5:43 pm: | |
I guess you'd have to remember how attractive the area was before. On 2nd was a parking garage that was built with mobster concrete and started falling apart before it was finished. On Plum were some abandonded industrial light manufacturing buildings and where the casino is now was a series of dirt parking lots. A tow truck guy use to hang out on 3rd just to change flat tires of the DTE employees. It might not be the greatest but it it 1000% better than what was there before.
80% of the employee parking is inside the MGM structure with only executive and visitor parking near the building. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 1569
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 5:54 pm: | |
Before, it was empty. Now, it's full of shit. |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 576
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 6:01 pm: | |
A tow truck guy use to hang out on 3rd just to change flat tires of the DTE employees.
Flat tires from crumbling concrete? I don't follow. Sad need for such a service, but it's a typical entrepreneurial spirit of a city. In Philadelphia, they have a traveling check cashing van. Surely, a balance can exist between having proportionate urban oases and maintaining local character. That parking lot is hideous juxtaposed against all that green. If they really cared, employees wouldn't have to scrape ice in the winter. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 1570
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 6:11 pm: | |
I am not impressed with the "at least it's SOMETHING" attitude prevalent among DYESsers. A city grows by accretion over hundreds of years. That's desirable. Having lots of little streets is an asset. Having neighborhoods that blend into other neighborhoods is an asset.
Plopping down a walled-off "campus" or gated "community" is a wasted opportunity.
But, hey, at least it's SOMETHING, right? Pfffft. |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 577
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 6:18 pm: | |
There is no long-range planning for this city or overall "vision" for lack of a better word. I've broached this several times, and I get shit for it.
Still, without a holistic outlook; we're going to remain 3rd rate...I don't even think we qualify as convention rate. |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 3911
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 6:25 pm: | |
Good to see some support. I was hoping I hadn't become too much of an outsider on a board celebrating a CITY.
This isn't bad compared to what was there, of course, Gnome, but that makes it no less bizarre or out of context.
Is it possible to have too much green space? Yes, even in a suburb. You want just enough such that what you have is efficiently used, and none of it is wasted space (unless your intent is to preserve certain land for wildlife or certain stands of trees, etc.). I guarantee there will be wasted space. Campus Martius is a great, small park, but most of the time you can still find a spot to sit. I'm not saying it's too big, because it is really perfect. But even a small park will hardly be fully used. You could play a couple football and soccer games on this DTE campus at once, but unless they plan on renting this out to the local little league, I'd say this is wasted space that the employees will look down on from their offices 5 months of the year anyway. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 1571
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 6:27 pm: | |
On-point, Mack. |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 578
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 6:40 pm: | |
Is it possible to have too much green space? Yes, even in a suburb. You want just enough such that what you have is efficiently used, and none of it is wasted space
Exactly. Not to mention the waste involved in maintaining it...chemical weed control, excessive watering and lawn mowing. Just slightly ironic. |
Downtown_remix
Member
Username: Downtown_remix
Post Number: 537
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 6:45 pm: | |
i think its great. They didnt have to do shit with all those ugly parking lots. Lets not forget how Ford employee cars had gravel riverfront views allllll day before riverwalk got here |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 579
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 6:53 pm: | |
Right, and they still have an ugly parking lot- some lucky peons will have that view. |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 295
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 7:04 pm: | |
oakmangirl, the ugly parking lots you are refering to have been replaced by the MGM Grand Casino. I believe DTE is planning on providing parking for approx 75 cars in a surface lot. All other employees now - and will - park inside the MGM Grand Parking structure. Four or five floors are dedicated to DTE employee parking. |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 580
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 7:32 pm: | |
Got ya. I missed that as the MGM is missing in the graphic. Still wish the parking was underground. |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 5627
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 10:49 pm: | |
Folks, I can agree with you to a certain point about the green space... but then I look at the west Foxtown area... and am reminded of what the huge area around DTE once looked like. That west Foxtown area with the grid street system could be like that for years and years, especially if Ilitch builds a new arena elsewhere. It has all the charm of the Berlin Wall no-mans land before German reunification.
But I know what concerns a lot of forumers... and it is a valid concern... that once it's green space and the roadways are gone... that it will likely be like that always. And that scenario few people want...
As has been stated, even if it were left empty (with the street grid intact, like in west Foxtown) and reserved for future high density development... that's years into the future.
A likely compromise could be landscaped green space, but keep the street grid intact. But unfortunately DTE ain't buyin' that scenario.
So this is a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation...
(Message edited by Gistok on November 01, 2007) |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 353
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 10:25 am: | |
found this aerial shot of the mgm dte blocks before the mgm was built. this person on flickr has several detroit pix of downtown develpoment plans that were never built. don't no where he got them from, but they're pretty interesting.
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=730156645&size=o
here is a rendering of CBD which shows 375 buried.
|
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 3964
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 10:34 am: | |
The photo you linked to does well to show how it was the freeways that doomed especially the MGM site to be a superblock. Once you cut off thru streets like that and make a bunch of natural dead ends, you can no longer have cohesive, connected development.
Wow, that person go a little carried away with the Compuware site. Damn, though, it would be so nice to still have Hudsons. |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 355
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 11:02 am: | |
The rendering is sort-of current as it shows the Comerica tower, but still shows Hudson's. Must have been generated in the early to mid 1990's.
The tall building that looks like CompuWare must be sitting on the Monroe block.
That stuff going on in front of the Fox is interesting...dreamed of long before ComericaPark was even dreamed of.
On that pic of the "before" MGM site, you can see the dirt parking lots where all the DTE employees parked. Pretty damn dismal in comparison to what is there now and the greenspace that DTE is in in the process of building. |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 5710
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 1:44 pm: | |
That picture is from a supplement to the Detroit Free Press from the early 1990's, after 1 Detroit Center was built (now know mainly as Comerica Tower). It shows an artists rendering of downtown if every scheme that was planned... had actually been built.
I still have that supplement somewhere. If you look to the right of the Comerica Tower, you will see a part of the twin (to be known as 2 Detroit Center) of the first tower. Sadly it was never built.
Also in that picture are some of the plans for the Kern and Kennedy blocks, but as high rises. Also the 81 story never-built Book Tower is seen on Washington Blvd. Also, there's rendering of a tower actually built over Washington Blvd., how strange!
... on second thought... it could have been the Detroit News supplement... I didn't have the Freep back then...
(Message edited by Gistok on November 09, 2007) |
Fareastsider
Member
Username: Fareastsider
Post Number: 687
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 1:39 pm: | |
Check out Grinnell Between Erwin and French for some nice Deco buildings the whole street is Deco factories. |
Quinn
Member
Username: Quinn
Post Number: 1541
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 1:45 pm: | |
I'VE BEEN LOOKING FOR THAT RENDERING FOR YEARS. Gistock...do you have the original? I'd buy you a few beers if you'd let me scan the whole thing.
Wasn't it a two-page spread? |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 5765
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 1:49 pm: | |
Quinn, I'll have to do some digging. I'll let you know when I find it, and get you a scan. |
Carptrash
Member
Username: Carptrash
Post Number: 1482
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 10:32 pm: | |
How to define Detroit's Art Deco Historic District.
1. Get a street map of Detroit.
2. Put a Red Dot on every building that has a Parducci on it.
3. The district's boundaries will emerge.
4. Do it.
eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeek |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 391
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 4:37 am: | |
Carptrash, could you please explain the eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeek you put at the end of every post? |
Carptrash
Member
Username: Carptrash
Post Number: 1483
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 11:00 am: | |
No, but Henry Ford can when he said, "Don't complain, don't explain." eeek |
Mauser765
Member
Username: Mauser765
Post Number: 2075
Registered: 01-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 11:18 am: | |
Hahahaha !
Its has a deep tribal ritualistic meaning that only Carpy and his ancient descendants can understand.
Hey, I have a stack of bricks from Joes studio in my backyard, am I part of the Deco district ?? |
Ramcharger
Member
Username: Ramcharger
Post Number: 496
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 12:24 pm: | |
“Unbuilt Detroit”, a special report by John Gallagher, art by Dick Rochon, was published in the Free Press Magazine section on Sunday Oct. 27, 1991. It is an extensive 12-page article exploring what Detroit might have looked like if all the “dreams” had been built.
Quinn, I have a PDF of the article which I could archive and e-mail to you if you’re able to extract WinRar files. |
Carptrash
Member
Username: Carptrash
Post Number: 1484
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 6:54 pm: | |
Yes Mauser (who understands much and says little {sometimes}) Joe's bricks are a Free Pass (not to be confused with the Free Press) into the Deco District. eeeeeeek |
Mdoyle
Member
Username: Mdoyle
Post Number: 246
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 9:01 pm: | |
Ramcharger I would be very interested in that also.
m.doyle (at) mac dot com
I would greatly appreciate it. |
Ramcharger
Member
Username: Ramcharger
Post Number: 497
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 1:08 pm: | |
Actually Gnome, the portion of the freeway that is covered in the rendering is the Fisher Fwy (I-75) between Clifford and John R. I-375 is east of there and, as you can see in this more complete rendering, is uncovered.
I think the strangest thing in this rendering is how Woodward Ave. ends at the Fisher Fwy and becomes a semi-circular plaza with an obelisk in the center. |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 393
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 10:20 pm: | |
Yes, thank you Ram, we all need a little help from our friends.
I still think it's a cool idea to bury the freeway. They did that to parts of 696 in Oak Park and Southfield and it doesn't seemed to have hurt anyone. |
Mauser765
Member
Username: Mauser765
Post Number: 2077
Registered: 01-2004
| | Posted on Monday, November 19, 2007 - 6:28 am: | |
"says little {sometimes}"
hahahahaha ! oh man, couldnt have said THAT better myself.
foot-in-mouth-atcha. |
Ramcharger
Member
Username: Ramcharger
Post Number: 499
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 9:33 pm: | |
I guess not too many people were interested in getting a copy of “Unbuilt Detroit”. I also have a PDF of a Free Press supplement from Sunday Dec. 18, 1977 entitled “Detroit: Rebuilding a Great City” if anyone is interested in that one. There are a lot of plans discussed in this article (such as punching a hole through the floor of the DIA’s Rivera Court to install a staircase) which, thankfully, never happened. |
Fareastsider
Member
Username: Fareastsider
Post Number: 698
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 9:47 pm: | |
Ramcharger I AM VERY INTERESTED please send me one of unbuilt Detroit at fareastsider12@gmail.com |
Greatlakes
Member
Username: Greatlakes
Post Number: 74
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 9:56 pm: | |
Is it possible for someone to upload these PDFs to www.googlepages.com perhaps? |
Ray
Member
Username: Ray
Post Number: 1055
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 12:15 am: | |
I am with Mack. Although grateful for the casinos and DTE investemnets, I think the urban fabric is diminished. You don't see these kind of developments in the Loop or North Michigan Avenue. There's ample parkland, but it's off to the side and the city is a dense grid of vibrancy and connection. |
Lifeinmontage
Member
Username: Lifeinmontage
Post Number: 15
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 1:31 am: | |
Gnome said: "I still think it's a cool idea to bury the freeway."
Did you ever read or hear anything about "The Big Dig" in Boston? It was a construction project to relocate the city's main artery underground. They began planning in the 80s and broke ground in 1991, but didn't finish until 2006. Originally estimated at $2.8B (1980s dollars), it ended up costing $14.6B. On top of time and budget overruns, it turns out that there was a lot of bad materials and engineering used in the project. As a result, part of the concrete ceiling of the tunnel collapsed and killed a driver.
The idea seems great in theory, but it's not practical. |
Greatlakes
Member
Username: Greatlakes
Post Number: 75
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 2:19 am: | |
The big dig is 3.5 miles. That buried section of 75 in the drawing is less than 2000 feet. |
Hans57
Member
Username: Hans57
Post Number: 231
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 2:23 am: | |
Yes, and in Boston they were digging, here it would be a cover up.
That section of highway was quite possibly the worst idea the city planners ever had. That,or selling the DSR to GM.
(Message edited by hans57 on November 29, 2007) |
Aiw
Member
Username: Aiw
Post Number: 6464
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 8:47 am: | |
Ramcharger, I'd love to see a copy of the one from 1977....
andrew@internationalmetropolis .com
Thanks! |
Gsgeorge
Member
Username: Gsgeorge
Post Number: 448
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, December 13, 2007 - 3:53 am: | |
I haven't been keeping up on this thread, but for those out-of-towners interested in seeing the area mentioned in Downtown_dave's original post, check out Google Maps for a virtual tour. Here's the link:
http://tinyurl.com/36guly |
Downtown_dave
Member
Username: Downtown_dave
Post Number: 228
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Friday, December 14, 2007 - 10:17 am: | |
Thanks Gsgeorge - very cool! |
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