  Ray1936 Member Username: Ray1936 Post Number: 2318 Registered: 01-2005 |
This sure isn't a Detroit picture, but it has a connection. The man is a cousin of mine, Conrad Volkert. "Uncle Con" as he was known, owned a grocery store at Clay and Oakland and lived above the store. He was quite an early automotive adventurer, going cross-country several times in the early 1920s. Anyway, here's a photo from an old family album, and I wondered if anyone could identify the make of car. The license plate fits a 1921 Michigan, although it could also be a 1926 (both were white numbers/black background).  Here's a bit of an enlargement:  | ||
Rsa Member Username: Rsa Post Number: 1349 Registered: 10-2003 |
looks like a model A to me, but i'm no early 20th century automotive afficianado... | ||
Gazhekwe Member Username: Gazhekwe Post Number: 1027 Registered: 08-2007 |
I think so, too. They were noted for their good road clearance, highly necessary on early highways. | ||
Gnome Member Username: Gnome Post Number: 404 Registered: 08-2007 |
the cowl on the ford radiators were square, I'm thinking you've got a buick, a studebaker or maybe an Oakland. looks like your uncle was an adventurer | ||
401don Member Username: 401don Post Number: 93 Registered: 11-2007 |
That's pretty impressive Ray. I never really thought about it but could you actually drive from one coast to the other back then? Did he start in the mid-west or on the east coast? | ||
Hpgrmln Member Username: Hpgrmln Post Number: 294 Registered: 06-2007 |
IMO those 20's cars were awful similar looking from the front. Not much to go on but judging by the stubby, undecorative hood ornament/radiator cap and simple one-piece bumper, Im putting a vote in for a 1923-25 Dodge Brothers. The bumper was one simple bar and there was an additional bar higher up (where the lisc. plate is in the photo) on the aforementioned Dodge. Source: American Car Spotters Guide, 1920-1980 | ||
Mwilbert Member Username: Mwilbert Post Number: 15 Registered: 11-2007 |
I am no expert, but the Model A (the famous one, not the 1903 one) wasn't introduced until 1927. So if he was travelling in the "early 1920s" it wasn't a Model A. | ||
Ray1936 Member Username: Ray1936 Post Number: 2319 Registered: 01-2005 |
I never really thought about it but could you actually drive from one coast to the other back then? Did he start in the mid-west or on the east coast? Based on letters I still have from the era, he drove from Detroit to Los Angeles and back several times. In one letter he writes of having to have his engine replaced in Oklahoma at a cost of $229. He camped along the way. Here's a photo of him with the camp set up, same car. The women are his wife, sister in law, and daughter. Notice the tent hooked up to the side of the car.  | ||
Gazhekwe Member Username: Gazhekwe Post Number: 1028 Registered: 08-2007 |
Emily Post, with her son and a friend, made the car trip from New York to Flagstaff in 1915. They wanted to celebrate the opening of the Lincoln Highway, actually a series of roads with that designation from coast to coast. Although they could have driven the rest of the way, they put the car on the train and took the train to LA from Flagstaff. | ||
Terryh Member Username: Terryh Post Number: 583 Registered: 11-2006 |
Did your uncle ever talk about the neighborhood Ray? That area is my favorite section of Detroit. The north end.Im trying to picture if there is still a building on the corner of Clay and Oakland. Do you remember the store? | ||
Ray1936 Member Username: Ray1936 Post Number: 2320 Registered: 01-2005 |
Conrad died in 1935, the year before I was born. I'd give an arm and a leg to be able to talk with him for an hour! Anyway, the building was in the northeast corner, and is long gone. Here's a photo from the very early 1900s.  | ||
Ookpik Member Username: Ookpik Post Number: 356 Registered: 01-2007 |
The car is a Stutz. Not sure on the year, somewhere between 1914-1923. Ookpik | ||
Jerome81 Member Username: Jerome81 Post Number: 1663 Registered: 11-2003 |
All those cars of that time looked pretty much the same. It didn't help that there were about a zillion car companies either. Would love to confirm if Ookpik is right. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 3925 Registered: 12-2005 |
It reminds me of a car I saw in A Fistful of Dynamite, although I haven't yet found a clip of the particular scene. | ||
Ray1936 Member Username: Ray1936 Post Number: 2321 Registered: 01-2005 |
Ookpik, I googled Stutz, and I haven't found a radiator that even slightly resembles the one on the car in question. Darn. Same for the other suggestions, gang. Keep trying. | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 616 Registered: 02-2007 |
Looks like a Dodge or possibly a Studebaker. More than likely aroundabout a 21 Dodge. Ray, if you can get a high res scan of that pic, looks to be an emblem in the top of the grill. | ||
Gazhekwe Member Username: Gazhekwe Post Number: 1029 Registered: 08-2007 |
I think it's great they traveled like that, what an adventure. That road in the first picture kind of looks like Raton pass, but I guess it could be one of many passes out west. Did you see they are camped right across the road from a farm house in the second picture? Times have changed. | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 1913 Registered: 12-2005 |
I'm maybe thinking Overland. I've posted these pictures over on the Antique Automobile Club of America's fantastic website--they have a special forum called "what is it"?, and this is a perfect place for that picture. There are a lot of knowledgeable folks over there. We'll have an answer in a day or so. http://forums.aaca.org/ubbthre ads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=46 7814#Post467814 56packman=mr.pushbutton over there | ||
Hpgrmln Member Username: Hpgrmln Post Number: 295 Registered: 06-2007 |
"I'm maybe thinking Overland" Ooh, Thats a good one. Looking at my reference book I see the Overland DID have a round logo on the grille, about where the faint one is on the above car.As did the Dodge I put a guess on. Can anyone find good color pics of those 2 they could post? | ||
Rsa Member Username: Rsa Post Number: 1350 Registered: 10-2003 |
a little off topic, but still pretty interesting: story about the first woman to drive across the continent: http://www.motorcities.org:80/ storyoftheweek.asp quote: the article also mentions that the first person to drive across country was in 1903. | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 617 Registered: 02-2007 |
Here is a 21 Dodge. Very similar. "Uncle Con's" car has a very distinct grill. Dodge is the closest thing I could find.   | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 1917 Registered: 12-2005 |
Not a Dodge, That I can tell you with confidence. Look at the shape of the radiator in Ray's photo then look at your Dodge pic: Dodge used that same radiator shape for years, starting with their first model in 1914 through the mid 20s. (It was essentially the same car with small incremental changes). The radiator opening in Ray's picture has a small flat section in the top center then diagonal lines that then travel straight downward. The Dodge is much more rectangular at the top, the opening is straight across the top with radiuses to the vertical edges. No Dodge. Cars in this era can be hard to ID sometimes, to the layman "they all look alike" and to veterans of the hobby they can too. Some brands were very distinct, Packard's "ox bow" radiator shape that every model from 1904-1956 carried, Pierce Arrow had the frog eye headlights that came out of the fenders--those are easily spotted in old photos. The middle-low market cars all sort of looked like this one. | ||
Ookpik Member Username: Ookpik Post Number: 357 Registered: 01-2007 |
As 56packman said, the car has a very distinctive radiator shell. Cars that have a similar but not quite exact radiator shell are Stutz, Chalmers, Cole, Haynes and I'm sure many, many more. My previous assertion that the car is a Stutz was based on the radiator shell. If you go by the shape of the fenders, it is probably not a Stutz. I would imagine it is one of those "odd" cars like those previously mentioned and not one made by an easily recognizable manufacturer. Ookpik | ||
Gazhekwe Member Username: Gazhekwe Post Number: 1032 Registered: 08-2007 |
Willys Knight, maybe? | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 619 Registered: 02-2007 |
56, Yes there are quite a few differences. The Apron or cowl around the windshield is different. I was going by the shape of the fenders, windshield and bumper placement. Which probably isn't very definitive. I looked at a bunch of different cars last night, I didn't see anything else even close to the radiator shape. The weird thing about that car is the top of the radiator. Often times there was a large tank, this radiator doesn't appear to have one. It must of been made into an arc to be concealed behind the grille. Something else looks strange about that grill. It appears to be out of proportion and misaligned with the front end. Is it possible that is a protective screen laying over the original grill? But that wouldn't explain the badge on it. (Ray probably knows and is having a ball watching us guess) | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 2064 Registered: 10-2006 |
"That's pretty impressive Ray. I never really thought about it but could you actually drive from one coast to the other back then? Did he start in the mid-west or on the east coast?" I do know that by 1932 when my grandfather's family drove out to L.A. from Ohio for the Olympics, that the roads were mostly paved by then. | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 1918 Registered: 12-2005 |
I have the boys over at the AACA website on it. We'll hear something soon. Not much gets past them. | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 3281 Registered: 10-2003 |
Roads were pretty bad in many areas of the U.S. into the '30s. Parts of US-66 weren't even paved until 1937. My grandfather traversed the country in a Ford Model T from Pennsylvania to California in 1922 and it was rough going -- huge pothole craters, washed-out roads, steep grades, etc. The story actually made the newspapers, if you can believe that. These days, such a trip is passe, but in the '20s, it was remarkable. | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 620 Registered: 02-2007 |
This is very close, 1920 Oldsmobile. Ebay comes thru again    | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 3282 Registered: 10-2003 |
How about a 1917 Studebaker?  | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 1920 Registered: 12-2005 |
The consesus over on the AACA site is Oldsmobile- in Sstashmoo's picture the bumpers match, and are very unique. Here is perhaps the most famous Oldsmobile of that vintage:  | ||
Gazhekwe Member Username: Gazhekwe Post Number: 1034 Registered: 08-2007 |
The Olds grille is an arch though. This one is flattopped. Horatio Jackson was the first person to drive a car across the US, and he did it in 1903. His trip was commemorated in a PBS movie, Horatio's Drive. He was driving a Winton which he acquired for the trip. After hearing about his venture, two other car companies had people set out on similar trips. Horatio still beat them, all on his own, relying on his own cash and his charm to get him through a lot of adventures. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H oratio_Nelson_Jackson | ||
Skulker Member Username: Skulker Post Number: 3850 Registered: 10-2003 |
The scan is very fuzzy and is creating distortion on the grill that is confusing everyone. The match to me is a feature I don't think I have ever noticed before and that is the lipped front fenders. Look closely at the right front fender on the BHB car and the left front fender on the subject car as well as the right front fender of Sstashmoo's ebay Oldsmobile. There appears to be a lip or other design detail creating the shadow that in some pictures creates the illusion of a double fender feature. The bumper blade appears to be an Oldsmobile as well. | ||
Ray1936 Member Username: Ray1936 Post Number: 2322 Registered: 01-2005 |
Sstashmoo, I think you've got it. I found another shot of the car in the album. Compare it to the photo you posted of the 1920 Oldsmobile. Looks like a match to me! (This photo is marked, "1922, Desert near Blythe, California")   | ||
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765 Post Number: 2151 Registered: 01-2004 |
My grandfather had a similar looking car - it was a kit that he built himself. No photo handy. | ||
Bigb23 Member Username: Bigb23 Post Number: 65 Registered: 11-2007 |
SStasmoo and Ray 1936 - Thats a match if I ever saw one!! Besides an Oakland is out of the mix,unless he took the script/grill- logo off. | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 1942 Registered: 04-2005 |
This is a 1920s era Olds radiator badge, which you might be able to identify on your original photo, Ray.  | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 621 Registered: 02-2007 |
Yeah Ray, I'd say that's definitely it. I kept googling every make of car I could think of with "touring car" and I remembered my Father talking about an Oldsmobile with a round grille like a big "O". One popped up with the grille at the Smithsonian, but a different year, then I googled 1920 Oldsmobile touring car and there it was. And I remember my Father, an old time mechanic mentioning about the Beverly Hillbilly car being an Olds after 56 packman posted about it. That was fun. Looking at that car, I cannot imagine going cross country in it. They weren't very reliable. Garages and good mechanics were few and far between as were doctors and hospitals etc. Maps probably weren't very accurate with only a few of the roads marked. Can just imagine after puttering along out west all day down dusty dirt roads, they must've had dirt caked on them at the end of the day. I'll bet every evening looking for a campsite, one near a swimming hole was the preference. Looked like they had a great time though. Of the two pics above there is one puzzling difference. On the pic I posted the front door drops down quick from the windshield, on your uncles car it drops gradually. These are either two different years or they were improved somewhere in the build. Or the bodies were made by two different mfr's. The one that dropped quick was probably hard to seal off from the driving rain. | ||
Ray1936 Member Username: Ray1936 Post Number: 2326 Registered: 01-2005 |
I'd guess they were different years. If you look closely, you'll see that the bar holding the license plate is slightly higher on Conrad's car than on the stock photo. And Hornwrecker, yeah, that logo looks like it would be it. I looked at the original photos with a high powered magnifying glass and can't make out much more than you see in the scan, so scanning at a higher definition wouldn't make any difference. So I'd say it's about a 1921 Oldsmobile. And thanks to all for kicking in. This was a lot of fun, and I'll bet "Uncle Con" (actually my cuz) is chuckling over us wondering about his wheels. | ||
Ray1936 Member Username: Ray1936 Post Number: 2327 Registered: 01-2005 |
One last note. In my family documents is one partial letter from Conrad to family back in Detroit (the first of three pages is missing). But Conrad says..... "We arrived in Glendale (CA) Oct 2, 38 days from the time we left Detroit. Total milage 4152, gas 287 gallons at cost of $72.80. Highest paid for gas was at Dubois, Wyo, 40c. Cheapest at Glendale 16 1/2 c, now down to 15c." Most of the rest is just family chit-chat. Conrad and his wife, Jennie, stayed in California that winter before returning to Detroit. | ||
Kathleen Member Username: Kathleen Post Number: 2607 Registered: 10-2003 |
Thanks for an interesting story, Ray1936! Great detective work to all! I went through some of my classic car photos when this posting first went up. You guys got to the Oldsmobile before I did, but I do have a photo of the Olds Touring in the early 20s and it looks right on the money! Great job! | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 1922 Registered: 12-2005 |
I had a horrible thought last night thinking about this car ID process--imagine 50-60 years from now when some guy is going through his father's old pictures (thumb drives, CD's--they'll have to invent something to read those) and he wants to know what his grandfather's car was after finding this picture, or one like it  I know I said that the cars of the early 20's can be hard to ID because they all kind of look alike--the early 90's econo-boxes will be even more difficult! | ||
Kathleen Member Username: Kathleen Post Number: 2610 Registered: 10-2003 |
Hence the family genealogy worksheets...as an adjunct to the standard birth, marriage, and death dates and places for family members, I've also created a worksheet asking family members to log the names and locations of the hospital in which they were born, the schools and churches they attended, the addresses of the houses they lived in, where they worked, and what cars they owned, plus significant events and memories that they want to record. Hopefully the worksheet will help fill in the gaps years later. | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 623 Registered: 02-2007 |
Kath, 56PAck, Agreed, identifying cars in the coming years is going to be about impossible. They won't be collected more than likely, save a few. I was just talking to someone about this the other day. In the early 60's in the summertime as kids we used to sit on the grass on the edge of Outer Drive and could name almost every car and the year that went by. I doubt that could be done now. Of course this is another reason cars are so expensive. It costs alot to tool up for all the different models. With just a few different engines to choose from. a lot simpler and cheaper. GM mastered that "a few good engines" philosophy. They've made 90 million Chevy small-blocks. They did the same with that one Impala body too, 76-90? Thing was like an anvil. | ||
Downtown_dave Member Username: Downtown_dave Post Number: 224 Registered: 07-2005 |
So, can anyone identify that white car in 56packman's post? ;-) | ||
Bearinabox Member Username: Bearinabox Post Number: 416 Registered: 04-2006 |
Toyota Corolla? | ||
Ray1936 Member Username: Ray1936 Post Number: 2329 Registered: 01-2005 |
Y'know, that just gave me a brilliant idea. I'm gonna go through the family photos that have cars in the picture and identify them, write it on the back or margin. I think I know most of them from the '30s on. Some future generation might well be grateful. And no, I don't have the foggiest on 56Packman's car other than I'm 99% sure it's not a VW. | ||
Hpgrmln Member Username: Hpgrmln Post Number: 301 Registered: 06-2007 |
1991 Toyota Corolla. Knew a few guys in high school that had those. Basically hand-me-downs from their parents | ||
Ray1936 Member Username: Ray1936 Post Number: 2350 Registered: 01-2005 |
For those of you who may be interested, a group of family letters to the Conrad Volkert family, written in German, are currently being translated. I've continued this thread over in the Detroit Connections side at Any good German translators here? | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 1939 Registered: 12-2005 |
Ray, I think your uncle's car has been located!  | ||
Ray1936 Member Username: Ray1936 Post Number: 2409 Registered: 01-2005 |
Boy, that's a match except for that fancy radiator cap. But that could have been swapped out. I absolutely love looking at these old cars; never tire of it. Often times if nothing perks up my interest on TV, I'll turn on the American Movie Classics channel on cable and watch one of those 1930s movies just to see the cars in the film. Acting usually sucks, but who follows the story line any more anyway? |
