  Chow Member Username: Chow Post Number: 434 Registered: 10-2003 |
"What if this design is a failure, and people hate it, and it sits vacant?" That is a risk that all developers take. Northern Group has weighed its risk and sees the possible outcome, hence why it is investing in the site. Design issues are more complex. Not everyone will like a building; not everyone has to like a building. What is important is to provide a rich architectural variety. "What does that do to the prospect of future designs and buildings reaching a completed state?" If it is a failure it will most definitely affect other developments throughout the city. Some will be canceled outright and others will be scaled back or postponed. But regardless, you cannot let the worst case scenario influence what risks you take. If that was the case there would be no investment in Detroit. "How does it fit into the urban context?" Well from what we can tell at this point, which is not much, it addresses and re-establishes the streetwall. Also this rendering is not to scale: If the retail portion does indeed rise 12 stories it would be nearly as tall as 16 story Compuware. This is not reflected in any renderings. "How does it relate to the buildings and structures it is adjacent too?" I don't know, does it have to? Minus scale concerns, architectural styling does not have to match what is there which is already very diverse. The beauty of the city is that it is heterogeneous, there is no one dominant style. "How do the buildings that follow this one continue its design criteria?" They do not have to. "Do we have a city full of sinuous and ribbon like buildings in the next 10-20 years, in which the building itself only appeals to one sense, vision, and leaves the other 4 out in the cold?" We do not know enough to judge how it will appeal to our senses. Who says that any other building nearby really appeals to all of the senses? The real issue here is how the building will create a sense of place, whether it will be human scale, and whether it functions adequately. I am not defending an architecture of spectacle. I think that image driven architecture degrades the human experience that architecture can provide. But in our time, which is very multifaceted, there is room for all types of design. Even if the experience is NOT WHAT I WANT, it may suit its intended use. This is an entertainment complex... let the people be entertained. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4744 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote:This is nothing more than a couple of mid-sized high-rise apartments with an even smaller connecting space. A tiny baby skyscraper is over twice as tall. And, in the final analysis, the architecture won't make a squat of difference. After a very brief time, its residents and shoppers couldn't care less. The architecture has more to say about the owners who initially commissioned it than anything else. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 3182 Registered: 06-2006 |
I suppose the best part about the design is that, even though it has more than twice the number of floors as One Kennedy, it's still short enough that the top of Cadillac Tower is visible from CM, much in the same way that the short height of One Kennedy and Chase Tower makes the Dime, Penobscot and Buhl visible from CM | ||
D_mcc Member Username: D_mcc Post Number: 68 Registered: 12-2007 |
"it really is a shame that architects are a dime a dozen in this town, and their opinions are worth even less." I am very pleased to hear you say that, as it affords little to no weight in your credibility as one of discussion and reason. And architects are NOT a dime a dozen in this town, not competent ones at least. And Chow, my argument doesn't just apply to this one design, it applies to all, even if it doesn't make sense to some, all those questions I posed are involved in the design process to some extent. When we design a space, we don't just design for the current time, we design for the future, mistakes are made, and we are to learn from those mistakes. That is why some buildings are torn down after 20 years, and others have been standing for centuries. Good design does not just end with the aesthetics of a building, but rather the invocation of feeling that the spaces create when an individual interacts with them. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 3183 Registered: 06-2006 |
also, as a side note for those who don't know, the company behind this project also owns the Penobscot, First National building, Cadillac Tower and Alden Park apartments... | ||
D_mcc Member Username: D_mcc Post Number: 69 Registered: 12-2007 |
^which leads me to the belief that this project will have a great impact on whether or not they decide to invest further in the city. | ||
Wood Member Username: Wood Post Number: 9 Registered: 05-2006 |
recent architecture school graduates are so adorable. | ||
Daytwa Member Username: Daytwa Post Number: 11 Registered: 10-2007 |
You know what, D_mcc? You're right! Now let's see some of your designs for the site... Or how about ANY of your designs... Since you have an "architecture degree" I'm sure you know way more about functional, sustainable architecture than Anthony Caradonna - right? You may be surprised by the number of folks on here with arch degrees, however this does not make us experts on the effectiveness of a structure based on a few renderings. You seem to be confusing your education with your mere personal opinion - a mistake that IN MY OPINION would only be made by someone with an undergraduate degree and minimal experience. | ||
Gotdetroit Member Username: Gotdetroit Post Number: 107 Registered: 12-2005 |
D_mcc: "Unfortunately, this follows more long the lines "of what I like to call Gehry-esque design, which isn't even architecture really...it's sculpture. It's one thing to design a building that resembles a food processor from the outside, but wait until tenants start to move in and realize that they bought into a fad and the spaces don't work like they should." So, you, uh, have seen the floor plans then, eh? Please, post them since you seem to have them, as well as the time to study them and digest the building's future functionality. My two cents. Yes, let us build nothing but old buildings. If anything looks newer than 1950, demolish it. Anyone who brings in private money, turn them away. How dare someone blasphemy Detroit with their new ideas. The building isn't the most beautiful, but I think (and keep in mind, there will be modifications to the plans prior to breaking ground - Casinos ring a bell?) something modern downtown is a good thing. | ||
Gumby Member Username: Gumby Post Number: 1698 Registered: 11-2003 |
I normally hate modern architecture (I abhor the architecture of Mies van der Rohe, sorry Lafayette Park lovers), but I absolutely love this design. Its flowing lines carry the eye around the building and surrounding area. To those complaining it is too short, 24 stories is nothing to scoff at. What do you want another Ren Cen that takes 30 years before it is used to its potential. Lets face it downtown is years away from being able to absorb the square footage of a true skyscraper. | ||
Rbdetsport Member Username: Rbdetsport Post Number: 435 Registered: 11-2005 |
How about a 48 story instead of two 24 stories? | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 1318 Registered: 09-2007 |
You'll have me on board!  | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 6066 Registered: 08-2004 |
LOL.... LY... why is the glass always half empty for you? While I'm not a big modern architecture fan, I have to at least agree that this design is much better than One Kennedy Square, a design that can be found on Big Beaver Rd. or Evergreen Rd., or for that matter practically in any American suburb. While this building will likely be a maintenance nightmare (like many of Frank Gehry's "shiny trash can" designs)... it may offer one thing that the One Kennedy and even the "Cheese Grater" (Chase Tower) lack... INTEREST. Folks who are at Campus Martius Park will give this building more than a passing stare. They will study it, and (the uniformed) will likely wonder what the different parts of it are for. That is actually good. It will provide interest. Much as a sculpture would. But I'm waiting for better architectural renderings... | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4745 Registered: 10-2004 |
Assuming that the top twelve floors will be the apartments, that implies that the average number of apartment units per floor is 3 1/2 (84/24). What square-footage apartment sizes were intended? | ||
Wschnitt Member Username: Wschnitt Post Number: 52 Registered: 07-2007 |
The sign in front says "CIRCUIT CENTER" not circuit city. | ||
Broken_main Member Username: Broken_main Post Number: 1367 Registered: 06-2005 |
I actually like the design. It is, to say the least, different. I commend the mayor and his people for keeping the energy at a moderate pace despite the economy. When the economy gets better, Detroit will be poised to make great leaps and bounds. It is also good to see outside interests having faith in Detroit. | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 1496 Registered: 11-2004 |
Thoughts on this project: This is a mixed-use building made up of residential, retail and entertainment space while excluding office space. If this is indeed true we don't have to worry about it further cannibalizing downtown office space. On the flip side it's not providing more space for the likes of Marketing Associates either. It will also bring more people to downtown for different reasons. Some to live, some to shop and some for entertainment. This will make downtown more viable in the long term because it helps create a 24-hour destination. Downtown Detroit needs this type of diversity. I agree with Quinn that I am glad there are a few people who hate it for precisely the reasons he laid out. I like the way the drawings look (this coming from someone who lives within sight of that site) and I am glad they are taking some chances with new design. I hope they take some similar chances with the design of Quicken's buildings. If the new building will be connected to Cadillac Tower, does that mean Cadillac Tower will undergo a significant renovation, too? I also hope they will find a way to work the Capitol Theater into the six-screen movie theater. Does anybody else think that theater should have more than six screens to be viable? I'm glad the design isn't a monolith like Compuware or the First National Building. It mixes up the architecture and allows for more light to shine into Campus Martius. I am glad to hear they are incorporating green features, such as a living roof, into the design. I hope they go the distance and go for at least gold LEED status. Doing so will help shed the city's rust belt reputation. Where is the parking for this building? Are they going put it underground? Will they squeeze in a parking structure to the back or connect to the Compuware garage? Since parking isn't mentioned in this development, does that mean it needs the proposed DTOGS mass transit line to be successful? I am stoked about this announcement. Talk about a shot in the arm for the area. However, I want to see the details. As cliche as it sounds, that is where the devil is. | ||
Artistic Member Username: Artistic Post Number: 81 Registered: 09-2006 |
This one announcement..like it or not...puts Detroit in the position of being unstoppable. Fantastic news for the city of Detroit! | ||
Rbdetsport Member Username: Rbdetsport Post Number: 436 Registered: 11-2005 |
Im hoping to hear a lot of details in the announcement on wednesday. | ||
Hunchentoot Member Username: Hunchentoot Post Number: 61 Registered: 03-2005 |
Wood, I'm one of those Kunstler people. He is definitely biased towards old styles of architecture but the primary reason I find what he rants about valuable is the building type, such as its interface with the street and so on. I don't personally like this design right now, but maybe it will grow on me, what I think is most important though is what is happening on the street and the future flexibility of use for the building in situations that could involve severe energy scarcity, for example. Actually, I am lying. In the basement of my apartment building I have used spare parts from the washing machines down there to attempt to reanimate the corpse of ol' Wirt. So far I can only get him to gurgle and screech and claw at me violently, but as soon as he stops trying to eat my brains I hope to get him back to the drawing board. If this experiment fails perhaps my clone of Albert Kahn can ignore that he has no arms and learn to complete the Fisher Building with his teeth. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 3186 Registered: 06-2006 |
Hmmm...I see Quinn and Hemingway flouting their arrogant attitude of "I'm glad you guys all hate it, that means its good, blah blah..." and I think their attitude has a lot to do with people on this forum who want everything in Detroit to look like it was built in the 1920s and who are generally opposed to anything resembling modern architecture... the thing is, to me, this doesn't look "cutting edge" or "new" "modern" or "hip" or any of that...it looks old...like it came out of the 1970s....it looks as if someone was commissioned to design a bowling alley or roller skating rink back in the 1970s and they got carried away and put two towers on top of it... I also think that something with retail that faces the street would give it a much more urban feel (especially across from the Compuware retail) rather than another indoor mini mall at the base of an apartment tower | ||
Greatlakes Member Username: Greatlakes Post Number: 110 Registered: 07-2007 |
The Freep article mentioned "800 parking spaces" but didn't specify underground or not. As to the design, it definitely is striking. The developers obviously wanted to create a new, unique landmark to their collection of iconic downtown Detroit skyscrapers. Who knows, maybe in a few years, all you'll need in a movie is an establishing shot of this center, and a national or even international audience will know you're in Detroit. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 4215 Registered: 12-2005 |
Tetsua's freep link went bad. I think that story moved here: http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20080106/BUS INESS04/801060567. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 6067 Registered: 08-2004 |
Thanks Jimaz... funny thing is the image on the Freep's website is a reverse image. You can tell because the Compuware Bldg is on the far right of that image. It should be on the far left. The building on the far right should be the 1st National Building (or the Chase Tower across the street from the 1st National, as seen in an earlier posted image). | ||
Andylinn Member Username: Andylinn Post Number: 668 Registered: 04-2006 |
this is great... We need more variety in our downtown collection of buildings... BTW, according to comparisons on the skyscraper page this will be about the 15th tallest building in detroit... about the size of the future Greektown hotel... - Andy | ||
Greatlakes Member Username: Greatlakes Post Number: 111 Registered: 07-2007 |
I think you're confused with where that image is supposedly from. It says the corner of Bates and Farmer, which in that case makes sense. Plus, notice the windows on Cadillac Tower which would be absent from the view you are thinking of. | ||
Elwoodp Member Username: Elwoodp Post Number: 21 Registered: 03-2006 |
I found this to be an interesting article about the Northern Group, their investments in the city to date, and their overwhelming confidence in the future of Detroit. http://www.thedowntowncollecti on.com/i/dbusiness_030607.pdf | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 3187 Registered: 06-2006 |
Gistok: You're looking at it backwards...I did the same thing at first...it's confusing because the two towers look very similar and it can be difficult to tell which one you're looking at in some of the renderings... As greatlakes pointed out, the vantage point of that photo is farmer and bates, and the part of Compuware you're looking at it the back corner of the main building that runs along Monroe and is right across farmer from the Compuware parking garage I had to pull up an aerial view of CM to make sense of it (Message edited by thejesus on January 06, 2008) | ||
Greatlakes Member Username: Greatlakes Post Number: 112 Registered: 07-2007 |
Hmmm, it seems they haven't finalized how much of Cadillac Tower will be reclad in glass. On most of the drawings, it's only the side facing Campus Martius, but in the illustration Gistok mentioned, the glass also covers the adjacent side. Further evidence that this design will definitely evolve. | ||
Saintme Member Username: Saintme Post Number: 78 Registered: 08-2006 |
My three cents: The building is hideous The news is great. I'll take it. |
