  D_mcc Member Username: D_mcc Post Number: 75 Registered: 12-2007 |
Vizion, Steel is actually higher price for material than most. I could see a lot of Cast-in-place with this one | |||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 1170 Registered: 10-2003 |
I understand the concern given the potential for another Renaissance Center sort of monstrosity that everyone stares at and asks how did this happen? I also understand how modern buildings have interspersed themselves into other cities with older classical buildings and the breath of life that this can supply. My bigger fear would be the potential for "false start" sort of thing. Overall: Good Stuff...Bring it on! | |||
Skulker Member Username: Skulker Post Number: 3870 Registered: 10-2003 |
1. This project is not subsidy free. People over look the Renaissance Zone designation. RZ's fully abate real and personal property taxes for a period of 15 years. The ONLY property tax they will pay is bonded debt which is currently about 14 mills. Lets do the numbers. Without RZ: $150,000,000 / 2 * .072 = $5,400,000 in annual taxes. ($4,395,000 to General Fund; $1,050,00 to bonded debt relief) With RZ: $150,000,000 / 2 * .014 = $1,050,000 in bonded debt relief. No actual cash flow going into the general fund. Furthermore, there will be no Michigan Business tax collected from stores operating there and residents will have their income tax waived. To say there is no incentive going into this project is preposterous. Note that there is no mention of the price of the land. I am guessing its $1.00. 2. No retailers have been announced. No pre-leases have been signed. I am skeptical of the odds of this going through without any pre-leases or at least soft commitments showing up very soon. The plus side is that a developer is thinking forward that by building an amenity, he can drive better occupancy (hopefully) into his already sizeable investments. Good luck with this one. I'd like to see it happen, but I am less than optimistic. | |||
Xd_brklyn Member Username: Xd_brklyn Post Number: 355 Registered: 10-2003 |
Am beginning to take to the drawings. Best thing is its height. It doesn't look to overwhelm simply because of size and because of its limited height no one form dominates the facade. Personally, I like this better than either the Compuware or the new building on Kennedy Square. Also would be curious to hear 3rdWorldCity's thoughts on this development. When it comes to downtown real estate his views agree with the lack of people I see in the CDB even when it is compared to the CDB of the early '80s. Have never heard of the Northern Group, but their motto appears right for Detroit-- “Buy what others do not want and create value” The Northern Group buildings in Philadelphia and Detroit must be doing ok for them to take this leap into building new. | |||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 6082 Registered: 08-2004 |
OK, some folks are asking about the $150 million price tag as being too low... I think that the architectural rendering appears larger and grander than the completed building will actually be. After all we're talking about a site no larger than the 5 sided Compuware HQ site. The Compuware HQ is about 1.1 million sq. ft. of office space, about 1.5 million total sq. ft. Plus the huge parking deck on the block adjacent to the building, the combined cost was about $300 million. The Monroe block development is probably no more than 1/2 million sq. ft. in total (parking space not included). The rendering shows what they "label" as two 24 story apartment towers. What it really looks like is a 6 story retail base (equivalent to about 10 stories of apartment height), with something like two 14 story apartment towers on the base. Each tower would have 42 apartments (about 3 per floor), for a grand total of 84 units. The apartment towers are likely to have something like 100,000 sq. ft. each (assuming about 2,000 sq. ft. per unit, plus mechanical and emergency stairs). That's really not that big when you think about it. The retail portion of the building will be about 200,000 sq. ft. And then there's the 800 car parking deck, which will likely be underground (since there's not that much space left over on that block above ground). So since we're talking only 1 block in total, this is not going to be anything on the scale of the RenCen. | |||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 3189 Registered: 06-2006 |
"I wonder why people get excited by all the bland kennedy/compuware buildings but when something truly interesting come along, they freak." I'm not freaking out about this design...it just looks old to me (like something an architect on acid would have drawn up in the mid 1970s) and its just generally unpleasant to look at... | |||
Hooha Member Username: Hooha Post Number: 154 Registered: 06-2005 |
" this is not anything like Gehry, at least none I've seen. His buildings remind me of Expressionist film sets" I was thinking the same thing. First time I saw Gehry's MIT Stata Center the first thing I thought of was "The Cabinet of Dr. Calligari." | |||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 3505 Registered: 10-2003 |
Upon more reflection, it looks like a couple of Jell-O molds. So, maybe not so much like a tornado... more like... The Blob. | |||
D_mcc Member Username: D_mcc Post Number: 79 Registered: 12-2007 |
Frank just completed a building in New York has the same feel as this structure. IAC HQ...kind of looks like an angular blob with frosted glass windows... | |||
Rb336 Member Username: Rb336 Post Number: 4341 Registered: 02-2007 |
 hardly the same feel. the IAC is monolithic and uninviting. it screams "stay away" | |||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 4430 Registered: 10-2003 |
Looks like it was the victim of some natural disaster. | |||
D_mcc Member Username: D_mcc Post Number: 84 Registered: 12-2007 |
That is just my personal feel of the building..it doesn't engage the street very well. | |||
Izzadore Member Username: Izzadore Post Number: 96 Registered: 11-2006 |
The fact that designs like these get mentioned makes them worth it. I don't really like the IAC design but I like it more than a steel-framed building. Character is always good. Many (NOT ALL) steel-framed buildings have no architectural identity to me. Buildings like this are landmarks. Maybe the Quicken HQ can be shaped like a giant 'Q' or something! Take a page out of ING (HQ) play-book. | |||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 1023 Registered: 12-2006 |
Regarding mentions of the Ren Cen, what bothers me most about that facility is its location within its own canyon, completely divorced from the street. So with this new facility, if it ever actually gets built, I'm more concerned with how it fits into the environment than with the admittedly strange design. | |||
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 4426 Registered: 10-2003 |
Wow! Great, great news!* [*Disclaimer: Skipper's rule and all due and proper anti-jinx respects observed of course.] I love the eccentric design. If we are getting another 1 Kennedy-style glass box, let it shout! It will set off Campus Martius and block that ugly Pontiac billboard on the Cadillac Tower. Hey, let's move The Fist in front of it too. Detroit Rises! | |||
Bits Member Username: Bits Post Number: 15 Registered: 02-2005 |
I don't mind the contrast of the new forms and materials with whats left of the older building in Detroit. To have contrast between old and new was a major factor for many of us who have fought to keep older buildings intact so the city could grow naturally over time vs looking like troy or southfield, Houston or Dallas. The comparisons with Gehry and other buildings in NY, or London have me skeptical. Those are high priced buildings in expensive markets, which makes them financially feasible. Detroit isn't NY or London yet. This looks like an expensive building and I don't see how 80 apartments and a health club can make the numbers work.. Additionally, the developer owns a number of existing buildings in Detroit and other markets, but doesn't seem to have much new development experience (from what I've found online). The Architect is a teacher and also doesn't seem to have much building experience (again from what I found online). Gehry has over 50 years of experience. I hope I am wrong as I hate to see big announcements get everyone excited only to go nowhere. (Message edited by bits on January 07, 2008) (Message edited by bits on January 07, 2008) | |||
Sciencefair Member Username: Sciencefair Post Number: 40 Registered: 10-2007 |
The final design will not look like the renderings, so hold tight for a couple years and then pass judgement. For one thing, the prespective renderings are used to express a concept, embellishing the design to "pop" on a 2D surface. It's about time Detroit got a breathe of fresh air architecturally speaking. Let's hope it happens. | |||
Bits Member Username: Bits Post Number: 16 Registered: 02-2005 |
This is an article I just read about the fear of modernism in Vienna today. It seems strangely pertinent to Detroit and this discussion.
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Joeyp1982 Member Username: Joeyp1982 Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2007 |
Seriously folks....Most of you people act like you would rather have nothing in that spot than something of substance....All of you historic people need to go away seriously...this isnt 1920 anymore....This city has abandoned any of its historic buildings DECADES AGO...its time to MOVE ON...its the 21st freaking century here....you cant revamp a building that has been empty since the 60s!•• jesus christ....you need modern buildings in this day of age...if you want Detroit to stand any chance of being a great city you need things going on my god....and even tho this design for some of you isnt the best its better than nothing....some of you people here that rag anything new that has to do with this city are probably the same people that dont even ever come down to support anything anyway...If you go to any city...Chicago, New York, Boston, Indianapolis, Pittsburgh, Philly, Denver, ANYWHERE! they all have MODERN buildings in their towns...and if you expect Detroit to even remotely compare to any of these towns you need stuff like this to be build....some of you people are unbelieveable | |||
Rb336 Member Username: Rb336 Post Number: 4354 Registered: 02-2007 |
let's build an exact replica of all the old buildings that were torn down! | |||
Bobj Member Username: Bobj Post Number: 3563 Registered: 11-2003 |
I will wait and see what they say at the press conference | |||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 1335 Registered: 09-2007 |
"Chicago, New York, Boston, Indianapolis, Pittsburgh, Philly, Denver, ANYWHERE! they all have MODERN buildings in their towns" They sure didn't get them overnight like you guys want to happen here. They go to all of their fancy towers with patience, proper city planning, and cooperation. Who knows, we would probably be on that same track if it wasn't for Metro Detroiters steadily abandoning their "world renowed" CBD for 35 years. (Message edited by detroitrise on January 07, 2008) | |||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 1089 Registered: 11-2005 |
And before it was the Cadillac Square building, habitater, it was the Real Estate Exchange Building, designed by Louis Kamper. A postcard showing the REEX Building before the Barlum Tower (now the Cadillac Tower) was built: http://i215.photobucket.com/al bums/cc280/buildingsofdetroit/ Postcards/RealEstateExchangeBu ilding-1.jpg A postcard showing them together: http://i215.photobucket.com/al bums/cc280/buildingsofdetroit/ Postcards/RealEstateExchangeBu ilding.jpg | |||
Detroithabitater Member Username: Detroithabitater Post Number: 108 Registered: 10-2006 |
beautiful, thank you much rawk! | |||
Hockey_guy Member Username: Hockey_guy Post Number: 7 Registered: 11-2007 |
Those pics make me want to travel back in time, to see what Detroit used to be like. | |||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 1171 Registered: 10-2003 |
Rawk, note the early surface parking lot on the right side of the second picture!  | |||
Baltgar Member Username: Baltgar Post Number: 92 Registered: 06-2006 |
Also, notice the large ad on the real estate exchange building (a la Broderick bldg) in the f=1st picture. The real estate exchange bldg reminds me of PPG building in Pittsburgh (less modern version of course) http://www.pbase.com/tremont/i mage/171067 It is too bad real estate exchange building is gone. | |||
Baltgar Member Username: Baltgar Post Number: 93 Registered: 06-2006 |
Also, notice the large ad on the real estate exchange building (a la Broderick bldg) in the 1st picture. The real estate exchange bldg reminds me of PPG building in Pittsburgh (less modern version of course) http://www.pbase.com/tremont/i mage/171067 It is too bad the real estate exchange building is gone. | |||
Wilus1mj Member Username: Wilus1mj Post Number: 234 Registered: 05-2005 |
Thanks Skulker on the "no" tax subsidy facts. The city can't keep favoring certain areas of the city, while others fall into neglect. | |||
Gotdetroit Member Username: Gotdetroit Post Number: 108 Registered: 12-2005 |
Detroitrise: "They sure didn't get them overnight like you guys want to happen here. They go to all of their fancy towers with patience, proper city planning, and cooperation. Who knows, we would probably be on that same track if it wasn't for Metro Detroiters steadily abandoning their "world renowed" CBD for 35 years." I'm not sure I understand your constant "be patient" rant. Look, people are here WITH money, so to speak. If people took your tact, we would be telling them to go away, and come back when Detroit "catches up" with everybody else or something. I’m wondering, when and how will we catch up if Detroit uses your formula for success? Your line of thinking is, uh, well, strange, to say the least. |
Vienna / Detroit