  Elwoodp Member Username: Elwoodp Post Number: 22 Registered: 03-2006 |
The Real Estate Exchange building was torn down in 1976. http://buildingsofdetroit.com/ places/cadsqbldg Interesting that Al Taubman once owned the building with the intention of building a mall on the site. | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 1349 Registered: 09-2007 |
No other city had their CBD rot for 30 years. They continued to develop it with time. how much simpler can I state it? | ||
Wilus1mj Member Username: Wilus1mj Post Number: 235 Registered: 05-2005 |
Why does city/state government screw up real estate so bad....stay out of it!••• I almost laughed at the story of the Real Estate Exchange Building. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 998 Registered: 01-2005 |
OK, Xd_brklyn, here's what I think. I sort of like the building and hope the developer can pull it off. I also agree with Skulker and wouldn't bet the farm it will ever get built. This is a lousy market for development financing, especially where Detroit is concerned. The Ren Cen, Madden Bldg (150 Jefferson), Comerica Bldg (Hines) have all been major money losers. The Penobscot and First National Bldgs, have been in financial distress for years and have been big money losers for a series of owners over the past 10 - 15 years. (I don't know how they're doing now - it depends on how big a hit the lenders took when Northern Group acquired them.) Also, the problems and big losses generated by the Book Bldg, 1001 Woodward, the Stott and probably several others have tainted Detroit's reputation as a possibly viable market. It's almost impossible to borrow money without having pre-leased much space to bankable tenants, which the developer has apparently not been able to accomplish. All the taxpayer give-aways in support of the project will come back to bite the developer and a lender in the butt down the road when the tax breaks go away. When they go away, and for a few years before, the value of the building may decrease significantly. A building may flow cash when the breaks are in effect but when taxes and other bennies kick in the building may go negative unless rents have escalated significantly in Detroit over the years. Few lenders are willing to make that bet in my view, certainly at this time. I do not think Taubman ever owned the Cadillac Square Building despite what the history link states; I could be wrong. Taubman did buy the Cadillac Tower Building. It was at the time owner by John Lambrecht and was in foreclosure. One week before the redemption period expired, Taubman stepped in and bought it out of foreclosure. He had intended to build a shopping center on the Kern block and intended to demolish the C-T building in the process. Despite Taubman's clout in the national market, he couldn't get one anchor tenant and scrapped those plans. He then sold the building back to Lambrecht and helped him get financing, part of which Taubman guaranteed, and eventually got paid off. The saga never ends. | ||
Gianni Member Username: Gianni Post Number: 326 Registered: 05-2004 |
I love it. I love that the architect spends half his time in Rome, but has a good sense and a good respect for Detroit. I hope and pray it happens. But I gotta call Skipper's rule on this one too. | ||
Skulker Member Username: Skulker Post Number: 3871 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Bunk. Numerous CBDs north of Mason Dixon and east of the Mississippi have been failing as long or longer than Detroit. Cleveland, Pittsburg, Cincinnati, Philadelphia...for cripes sakes even New York was on the verge of bankruptcy in the 1970s and 1980s. The successful ones are the ones that recognized what was going on and strategically invested using regional and state assets. NYC and Boston are the ones that are most prominent with Philly a distant third. Other like Cleveland, Baltimore and Pittsburg have created Potemkin Villages that play well in the press. Detroit has yet to build its Potemkin Village. (Need proof? Look at Cleveland, touted as an urban revitalization epitome, replaced Detroit as the poorest big city in the US. The Flats does not equal real change.) quote: Here's the thing, the developer needs little to no bank financing. He claims he can pull it off using mostly his money. Dubious at best. He appears to have the cash to do it, but you don't get that kind of cash by making bad decisions. I fear that once the due diligence is done, he'll put his not insignificant resources somewhere else. Then again, some times good money after bad can change the bad money to good. If the development happens and is successful, the investments in FNB, Cadillac Towers and Penobscot are suddenly a lot more attractive for tenants. Sometimes you have to invest to attract quality tenants. I know that is anathema to 3WC and his friend Tony P., but it is a method that can pay HUGE dividends for those that have balls and vision. As a very, very wealthy man once said when introduced to a wannabe developer: "How and when did you go bankrupt?" "I've never been bankrupt!" "Then you have no balls and are not a developer." That said, I am highly skeptical that the developer will be able to secure enough leases in the next 120 days ( the real time line on this all) to make themselves feel comfortable about sinking more money into the project. | ||
Classico Member Username: Classico Post Number: 73 Registered: 12-2005 |
I like it as well. Of course, the planner in me wants to see some cosmetic changes, but overall this is just what the city and that area needs. I'm not to sure about the re-cladding, and really I hate that green color. I wish we could mix something in like with the Deco inspired tinted/stained glass on the Aberdeen. Or something of that nature. I would also like to see or know more about how this will exactly fit with the street landscape. it needs to be very urban square center friendly to work. I'm confident big Tony knows what he is doing. Some of you need to get past your "traditional" architecture biases, modern architecture can be fun, inspiring and highly influential. Everybody wants a Comerica tower on each and every corner. Talk about bleh. I like Deco and older architecture as much or more than anyone on this entire board, but I completely understand the importance of this type of development/architecture. For some of you its just something you will never understand. Just go along for the ride and hold tight. It's one piece at a time folks. When all the pieces are in place I think the context of a design like this will start to gain acceptance and form rather quickly. I hate cg renderings. They look hokey and God awful. Would love to see a artists rendering or even one in sketch-up over cg. | ||
Gsgeorge Member Username: Gsgeorge Post Number: 557 Registered: 08-2006 |
Renders never look like the final design. This will be an impressive building for the downtown core. Seeing it in person, the textures and reflections on the glass, the way it will look from below nestled among deco monoliths. You'll change your mind when a movie theater, grocery store (keeping my fingers crossed), Campus Martius etc is all there. I'm excited. | ||
Eric Member Username: Eric Post Number: 1068 Registered: 11-2004 |
quote: It doesn't matter how state it, your notion that because of our relative lack of development over the 30 years we shouldn't build something as modern as found in other cities is just ridiculous. Really, what does it accomplish? Nothing. The vastly different architectural styles found downtown seem co-exist, yet this one building will somehow disrupt the downtown landscape | ||
Xd_brklyn Member Username: Xd_brklyn Post Number: 356 Registered: 10-2003 |
Thanks 3WCity, Skulker. Appreciate the comments. And that story of the Real Estate Building is a killer. Talk about history repeating itself! | ||
Downtownguy Member Username: Downtownguy Post Number: 105 Registered: 07-2004 |
The News has a story on the project today: http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20080108/B IZ/801080396 Perhaps it's because the Freep scooped them on the story, but the News article takes a much more cynical tone--at least until the end of the article. | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 2192 Registered: 10-2006 |
Hell, even NYC didn't like the WTC, but grew to love it... | ||
D_mcc Member Username: D_mcc Post Number: 85 Registered: 12-2007 |
For the record, I never said anything about building structures that were exact historical replicas of the existing buildings, there is something called design context. The reasons buildings like this work in cities like London, New York, and Barcelona, is because those cities have taken baby steps over the years and developed an architectural language that allows that type a growth. A design like this could fit in well in Detroit, if those same steps were taken in Detroit to allow it. This is just such a huge step for Detroit. It's the equivalent of running the 100m in the Olympics when you just learned to walk. I love development, and I love change, but there is no natural progression from the existing content of the city, to this "radical" design. | ||
Hans57 Member Username: Hans57 Post Number: 258 Registered: 05-2006 |
Who cares what the hell it looks like? It's something great in our city center. It'll complete that feeling of a dense downtown that we've all been yearning for. I guarantee we'll love it in 10 years...if it gets built. | ||
D_mcc Member Username: D_mcc Post Number: 86 Registered: 12-2007 |
I'm sure there are a lot of people who care what the hell it looks like. | ||
Jeduncan Member Username: Jeduncan Post Number: 169 Registered: 11-2006 |
It's like a mail order bride. You don't love it at first because it's foreign and doesn't seem to fit in. But after you use it a few times, you can't live without it. | ||
Rax Member Username: Rax Post Number: 87 Registered: 11-2007 |
Are they going to tear down the National Theatre? Hopefully they can incorporate it into the building somehow. Does anyone know???•••• | ||
D_mcc Member Username: D_mcc Post Number: 87 Registered: 12-2007 |
^^^ Classic, I'm laughing at my workstation | ||
Rjlj Member Username: Rjlj Post Number: 447 Registered: 11-2003 |
The National Theatre will be ground into dust and used in the concrete of the new building. | ||
Rax Member Username: Rax Post Number: 88 Registered: 11-2007 |
What's so funny about your workstation, D_mcc? | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 1352 Registered: 09-2007 |
Thank You D_mcc. that has been my point all along. | ||
Swingline Member Username: Swingline Post Number: 985 Registered: 11-2003 |
The site in question does not include the National Theater. | ||
Ramcharger Member Username: Ramcharger Post Number: 507 Registered: 05-2006 |
The National Theatre is on the block east of where this development is planned. There should be no direct effect on the theater. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 6086 Registered: 08-2004 |
I think this design to be an intriguing one, although I am not convinced that the final design will be as innovative (innovation usually means more expensive). As for the comments on this thread about "you can't revamp a building that's been empty since the 60's!"... that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Obviously someone hasn't been paying attention to the Book-Cadillac and Detroit Opera House restorations... And as for Detroit looking like other modern cities.... why?? Why should Detroit look like every other American city? Detroit has plenty of character in its' remaining supply of old buildings... to look unique and attractive even with some modern ones mixed it. Granted we're no Dallas or Phoenix, but since when do we want to be? But with the Cadillac Centre, I think that odd shaped building will fit right in with that odd shaped block. | ||
401don Member Username: 401don Post Number: 199 Registered: 11-2007 |
If I was Kwame I would not do the press conference until I knew the project was a certainty as we all know how many deals have fallen through due to lack of retail tenants. It would have been great to hear an anchor store had already signed on. Do you think the theatres will need to draw suburbanites downtown to sustain themselves? The movie business is tricky nowadays as most films last about 2 weeks in theaters. It certainly could give a shot in the arm to downtown restaurants. I think this location has far better potential for the theaters than the Old MGM, which was an "island." (Message edited by 401don on January 08, 2008) | ||
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo Post Number: 486 Registered: 12-2006 |
It would be a lot of fun to do "dinner and a movie" downtown. | ||
Classico Member Username: Classico Post Number: 74 Registered: 12-2005 |
D_mcc Your absolutely correct, and thats what I was getting at when talking about the "context" of the project. As of today if you plopped that building down(with no other changes to the surrounding adjacent blocks), it would look very radical at first. Here's the thing though, in going that route your entrusting that people(planners and the like) know what the hell they are doing. If you decide to go this route with the current configuration of that area it better damn well be the first step of many in mind. Otherwise it will stick out as a isolated no context whatsoever structure. That could even work, but not for a location as prime and as important as that one for the city. If they blend it though and take ques from it in future developments in the area, you will see the full realization eventually. Many developments like this look like complete crap if you isolated them or took them from the supporting environment. This is how good planning vs bad planning unfolds. I know this and you know this, but hopefully the people who are involved with this and future projects are fully briefed on it. Otherwise your justing wasting time, money and valuable real estate. | ||
Rax Member Username: Rax Post Number: 89 Registered: 11-2007 |
You can do dinner and a movie downtown right now. Why wait until 2011. Live damn it! | ||
Sciencefair Member Username: Sciencefair Post Number: 42 Registered: 10-2007 |
^ Amen Rax! | ||
Matt Member Username: Matt Post Number: 1239 Registered: 10-2003 |
Perhaps they have retailers already lined up and they'll announce that at the conference tomorrow. |
