  Fareastsider Member Username: Fareastsider Post Number: 782 Registered: 08-2006 |
How far out should have Detroit annexed lands in your opinion? I know that Detroit stopped for the most part as they felt at times they were big enough to handle. What areas should Detroit have gotten when it had the chance? As a side note I wish Detroit would have stretched out further but nothing to crazy such as north of 14, west of Inkster or south of Van Born or Southfield (the part south of I94) I find it quite unfair that large cities geographically are heralded as the new larger cities but these cities contain two or three times as much land are as Detroit. Phoenix and Dallas are good examples. I know they have more people but hell Phoenix has almost 500 sq miles! if not more now! | ||
Hockey_guy Member Username: Hockey_guy Post Number: 13 Registered: 11-2007 |
I wonder if it's too late, or if suburbs would even want to be part of Detroit now. | ||
W_6_mile Member Username: W_6_mile Post Number: 57 Registered: 01-2008 |
Its to late...Were I reside in the northwest side of Detroit it was once called Greenfield Township. Until it was annexed in the late 20's. | ||
Baltgar Member Username: Baltgar Post Number: 101 Registered: 06-2006 |
Detroit would have probably annexed townships such as Warren, Livonia, Sterling heights, Farmington Hills, Southfield and Troy if they did not incorporate into cities. See page 5 for more information. http://www.landpolicy.msu.edu/ modules.php?name=Documents&op= viewlive&sp_id=309 Further protections to charter townships was provided by the MI legislature by basically grandfathering existing charter townships. The State of MI should look to repeal some of this protection and provide more incentives for consolidation. This will create more long-term sustainability and prevent future receiverships. | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 366 Registered: 07-2007 |
"I find it quite unfair that large cities geographically are heralded as the new larger cities but these cities contain two or three times as much land are as Detroit." These cities aren't being hailed for their physical size but for the fact that they've been able to eclipse cities like Detroit without collapsing into a fiscal mess. Part of this comes from their ability to absorb growth at the fringes, capturing population and tax base that otherwise would have fallen outside the city limits. If we drew the borders of Phoenix over the same area of SE Michigan, we would have a city that easily beats Phoenix in population and economic value. Instead, we've divided ourselves into a hundred little fiefdoms and in doing so, we're slowing withering away from a national perspective. | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 2513 Registered: 07-2004 |
The sad thing now is that there are some suburbs that could benefit from an annexation by Detroit, but they're not in the best of shape so Detroit probably wouldn't want them now. I'm speaking of Highland Park, Harper Woods, and Warren. It would be a coup for Detroit if it could annex Harper Woods or just Eastland Mall and say that it now has a mall. However, Eastland Mall is not in the best of shape financially so why bother. | ||
Jasoncw Member Username: Jasoncw Post Number: 477 Registered: 07-2005 |
I would have Detroit annex all development. Pontiac might be annexing its own growth. There would only be a small handful of cities in metro Detroit. If Detroit was to annex all of it's growth, I'd expect for there to be less sprawl, and the metro would be more manageable than it would be now. | ||
Joeyp1982 Member Username: Joeyp1982 Post Number: 10 Registered: 12-2007 |
You dont actually think that any city on gods green earth would wanna be a part of detroit do you? | ||
Reddog289 Member Username: Reddog289 Post Number: 216 Registered: 08-2007 |
you might see some cities merge in the future, yet i don,t see detroit annexing any city except for maybe highland park. but think of this if livonia had not become a city in 1950, then detroit might have a meijer and 2 malls, plus a turkey farm. | ||
Gsgeorge Member Username: Gsgeorge Post Number: 563 Registered: 08-2006 |
Baltgar, thanks for the link, fascinating article. | ||
Gsgeorge Member Username: Gsgeorge Post Number: 564 Registered: 08-2006 |
Why DETROIT and its SUBURBS don't coexist peacefully, and why the AUTOMOBILE is so necessary here: quote: From the Verburg Policy Dialog paper (Baltgar's link) | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 1392 Registered: 09-2007 |
"you might see some cities merge in the future, yet i don,t see detroit annexing any city except for maybe highland park. but think of this if livonia had not become a city in 1950, then detroit might have a meijer and 2 malls, plus a turkey farm." Either that or Northville/Novi/Wixon would have 2 Meijers, A Wal-Mart and a Turkey Farm. Even if Detroit did grow larger and annexed more land (remind you, we could have also annexed south and west), the sprawl simply would have just been pushed further out (likely towards Saginaw and Lansing). However, despite the size Detroit was (in area), we were still considered a huge city because 2 million people were living and working so densely (very high density before the riots). Hey, I can't help it if some idiots chose to burn down their own city and allow it to hit rock bottom. Maybe that's why the nations tries to not associate with us as much as possible | ||
Fareastsider Member Username: Fareastsider Post Number: 784 Registered: 08-2006 |
"The sad thing now is that there are some suburbs that could benefit from an annexation by Detroit, but they're not in the best of shape so Detroit probably wouldn't want them now. I'm speaking of Highland Park, Harper Woods, and Warren. " Harper Woods and Warren BENEFIT by being annexed by Detroit today? I think both cities may have their own problems but merging with Detroit is something they would not do and not because of race issues. Warren and Harper Woods may have their own problems but they pale compared to Detroit. | ||
Russix Member Username: Russix Post Number: 63 Registered: 11-2006 |
What about De-annexation? Outer ring parts of the city joining to their suburban neighbor. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4871 Registered: 10-2004 |
SW Detroit finally breaks free from Detroit, and Dearborn annexes whatever parts it wants of the former SW Detroit (up to Ninth Street--Trumbull and south of Warren Avenue). Ditto for Warrendale... | ||
Mwilbert Member Username: Mwilbert Post Number: 70 Registered: 11-2007 |
There is no question that Detroit didn't expand enough to deal with the regional issues raised by automotive sprawl--cities that grew up later annexed lots more land. Look at Jacksonville, which had way fewer people than Detroit when it annexed everything around it, and grew to 750 square miles, more than 5 times the physical size of Detroit. By comparison, the entire tri-county area is a bit over 2000 square miles. So I would say it would have been reasonable (but not possible) to annex everything inside a perimeter running roughly from Mt Clemens to Auburn Hills to Walled Lake to Romulus to Gibraltar. I didn't calculate the area, but it is roughly 750 sq. mi. But when Detroit was expanding, only a few people realized what the car would do to housing and employment patterns. Frank Lloyd Wright was a notable exception, but people thought he was nuts, at least on this topic. And my understanding is that it was not legally possible for Detroit to annex land north of 8 Mile because of the county boundary, so whatever foresight the city might have had, it would have been too narrow north-to-south unless that rule had been changed. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 6991 Registered: 02-2004 |
I found this quote: "In 1978, the legislature amended the Charter Township Act and granted additional protection from annexation. The new statute granted immunity from annexation to all townships that were chartered by 1978. Townships that were chartered after that time could be granted immunity from annexation by the SBC if the township met several criteria including the provision of water and/or sewer services." That's funny! Does Redford (Charter) TWP. gets its water and sewage from Detroit? YES THEY DO! Therefore Redford TWP. is not covered under the Charter Township Act. That means sooner or later Redford TWP. Will be annexed to Detroit, Dearborn Heights or Livonia. I can see that most dirt roads in most Redford TWP neighborhoods are being paved with asphalt. Outcome of the Compromise As the SBC began implementing its responsibilities, the caseload for annexation grew dramatically during the 1980s. The caseload involved anywhere from 13 to 47 petitions filed per year. Developers initiated virtually all of the cases and maintained that annexation was necessary to gain access to city water and sewer services. Most commonly, cities providing these services responded by saying the city policy does not permit extending these services outside the municipal boundaries. Hence, in townships that did not provide these services, annexation was the only avenue for gaining these services. The compromise also resulted in a major decline in the incorporation of new cities and villages and brought a virtual end to the city incorporation of full townships." That means all TWPs. who gained access for water and sewage from Detroit will be subject for annexation. Not to Detroit if it's away from city limits but to other incorporated suburban cities. For example Bloomfield TWP. may be annexed to Pontiac, Or Utica may be annexed to Sterling Heights if they voters have a say. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 6992 Registered: 02-2004 |
De-annexation is possible for all Michigan cities. Due where is law to de-annex a portion of the sub division. I would like to have All of SW Detroit to be de-annex from Detroit and start their own city and the City of Springwells will rise. | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 2247 Registered: 10-2006 |
"Part of this comes from their ability to absorb growth at the fringes, capturing population and tax base that otherwise would have fallen outside the city limits." This is the best one sentence summary talking about why it is so important to annex. It really doesn't lead to any 'smarter' development per se, but it does lead to a better ability to share funds through a more unified system. Charlotte, NC will easily be over a million by 2020 if the trends continue. This is not because of any sort of density necessarily, but rather just the shear area--basically the whole county. | ||
Mwilbert Member Username: Mwilbert Post Number: 72 Registered: 11-2007 |
It is true that the ability to annex may not lead to smarter development, but it can, as it is easier for a city to do land use and transportation planning rationally than a region of a hundred cities and towns to coordinate and agree on a plan. In SE Michigan this is just hypothetical; there isn't going to be any significant amount of annexation or deannexation. But all the cities and towns are creatures of the State of Michigan, and if there is enough demand for change the state government can rearrange everything. As I read the Michigan Constitution (and I am not a lawyer) for most purposes it wouldn't require the consent of the cities and towns either. I expect the ongoing fiscal crisis is going to force everyone to put things on the table that haven't been there before, and it will be interesting to see if there is some kind of consolidation of services, or regional planning with teeth, even if there is no political consolidation. Desperation makes many things more palatable. | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 1402 Registered: 12-2005 |
quote: No, that means that regardless of when Redford Twp. was chartered, as long as it can provide water and sewer services to an area of the Township (regardless of the source of the services), that area cannot be annexed by a city such as Detroit unless the Township agrees to it. Regarding the history of Detroit's expansion by annexation, I think the reasons behind why it stopped where and when it did are many. First of all, it is helpful to remember that in 1930, Detroit's population was about 1.5 million shortly after its current physical boundaries had been reached. And it wasn't as if Detroit was surrounded by nothing but sparsely-populated farmland, since there were already half a million people living outside the City of Detroit in Wayne, Oakland and Macomb Counties. Detroit had annexed large areas of land in the late 1920's which had not yet been developed by the time the Depression hit. In the absence of the Depression, the boom times of the 20's would have caused those areas to have been developed within a few short years and the pressure to annex more township land would have continued, probably right across county lines. However, what actually happened was that most residential land on Detroit's north and northwest perimeter remained undeveloped during the 1930's. When the auto manufacturers and the US Government needed to quickly build large new factories in the late 1930's and early 40's, Detroit had no greenfield industrial land of sufficient size so they ended leapfrogging Detroit's partially-developed residential areas on the perimeter and they were built instead in places like Warren Twp. and Willow Run. Because of the war-time building restrictions, Federally-funded defense housing was just about the only new residential housing to get built, not just in Detroit but also near those new plants located just outside of Detroit. Eventually, after the war by 1950 or so, all the vacant residential land on Detroit's perimeter was quickly built out, but so were the areas just across from the city limits. From a political standpoint, it was probably then too late for Detroit to attempt to annex the growing suburban townships on its border, since they were no longer thinly-populated and they would be sure to fight to keep their there newly-expanded industrial tax base. More importantly, from a policy standpoint, further annexation was severely hampered by the Detroit Dept. of Water Supply's cautious approach to development. Back in 1938, L.G. Lenhardt, General Manager of the Dept. of Water Supply had proclaimed that the Department would concern itself with only taking care of what it already had. He advocated entry into the water and sewerage business by other government bodies - Wayne County, in particular - to serve needs created by suburban development [source]. This cautious policy approach continued until the 1956 arrival of Gerald J. Remus, the new Superintendent and Chief Engineer and we all know what happened after that. | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 368 Registered: 07-2007 |
"And my understanding is that it was not legally possible for Detroit to annex land north of 8 Mile because of the county boundary, so whatever foresight the city might have had, it would have been too narrow north-to-south unless that rule had been changed." I'm not an expert on 1920s annexation law but I don't think there ever was such a rule. It was probably more of an issue of not wanting to deal with 2 counties (or 3 if going into Macomb) versus one. There are plenty of Michigan cities and villages that cross county boundaries and some have done that through annexation. "Therefore Redford TWP. is not covered under the Charter Township Act." Wrong. Redford provides water and sewer through its contract with DWSD. Having it provided via a contract meets the legal standard. Redford TWP or portions of it might be annexed to a neighboring city but not because it doesn't provide water and sewer services. "De-annexation is possible for all Michigan cities." It's actually called a detachment and it can't really happen in most SE Michigan cities. Why? The original townships that you would detach back into no longer exist. Springwells? Greenfield? They don't exist anymore. There is still a Novi TWP so technically, you could detach part of the city of Novi back to the Township (or Northville or Wixom, all of which include portions of the original Novi TWP) but you would also have to get a majority of people in the city and township to approve that. That's not going to happen. | ||
Buyamerican Member Username: Buyamerican Post Number: 295 Registered: 02-2007 |
"The sad thing now is that there are some suburbs that could benefit from an annexation by Detroit, but they're not in the best of shape so Detroit probably wouldn't want them now. I'm speaking of Highland Park, Harper Woods, and Warren. It would be a coup for Detroit if it could annex Harper Woods or just Eastland Mall and say that it now has a mall. However, Eastland Mall is not in the best of shape financially so why bother." What do you mean Harper Woods and Warren are in such shape that Detroit wouldn't want them? You've got to be kidding. Please tell me how Harper Woods or Warren could possibly benefit from an annexation with Detroit? I could see Highland Park because it is surrounded by Detroit. If Harper Woods or Warren had annexed with Detroit, they would look like Detroit looks today in most neighborhoods because Detroit doesn't take care of it's neighborhoods. The sprawl would be bigger than Detroit could handle. Warren looks pretty good from where I sit. | ||
W_chicago Member Username: W_chicago Post Number: 1 Registered: 01-2008 |
"And my understanding is that it was not legally possible for Detroit to annex land north of 8 Mile because of the county boundary, so whatever foresight the city might have had, it would have been too narrow north-to-south unless that rule had been changed." Northville annexed part of Novi north of 8-Mile Rd. Half of the city is now in Wayne County, and half of it is in Oakland County | ||
Ray1936 Member Username: Ray1936 Post Number: 2577 Registered: 01-2005 |
Grosse Pointe Shores is also partly in Wayne county and partly in Macomb county. Hell, New York City is in five counties. | ||
Hudkina Member Username: Hudkina Post Number: 94 Registered: 12-2004 |
Detroit would have 3.7 million people if it had been able to annex as it expanded in the area (basically everything north to 26 Mile Rd and west to Napier Rd as well as everything in Wayne County except for Sumpter TWP, Van Buren TWP, Belleville, and Huron TWP. The city would be about 1,000 sq. mi. but it would be larger, population-wise, than any city except New York and Los Angeles. (Granted most cities would be 1/3 or less of the size of Detroit...) But instead that area is made up of over 90 separate municipalities with thousands of duplicate tax-payer supported jobs and departments as well as regional in-fighting that has squandered resources and hindered economic recovery. (How can we build a regional rail-system when we we fight about things as stupid as water distribution and what color the people are who may be shopping in a new WalMart.) Sadly, the population of the same area would be near 5 million people if every municipality had maintained its highest population ever. (i.e. if Detroit still had 1.8 million people, if Warren still had 180,000 people, etc.) | ||
D_mcc Member Username: D_mcc Post Number: 137 Registered: 12-2007 |
I;m sure there is a greater benefit to consolidation of the cities, be it through tax bases and services to be provided. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1653 Registered: 11-2003 |
Give another two years of falling revenues due to the proposal A mess and we may actually see some consolidation and much more sharing of services. Much as this current crisis has forced the Big 3 to make changes that they otherwise would not have done before, so should hopefully this economic crisis force municipalities to finally do things that make sense instead of being wasteful due to duplication of services. | ||
Bobj Member Username: Bobj Post Number: 3655 Registered: 11-2003 |
If you look at a map of Wayne, Oakland, and macomb counties, it does look like massive sprawl. The actual City of Detroit looks small. Friends that have moved here have commented on all the little cities around here for a metro area our size. Nobody will merge with detroit at this point, but way back when, the city should have grown geographically to at least 16 mile on the ne side | ||
7051 Member Username: 7051 Post Number: 64 Registered: 02-2006 |
Does anyone have any information on the east sides futile late 80's attempt to leave Detroit? Why did it fail as I do recall it was very organized-as I found some online info. 3 or 4 years ago(can't seem to find it anymore). I know the boundaries of this detachment were Mack, Kingsville(just north of Moross), Kelly, and approximately Whittier. What would have to be done to allow an area such as Hamilton/Pontchatrain, Livernois, Puritan and EIght Mile Road to become North Detroit? We have physical locations already for police, fire and possibly Dpw if we include the Palmer Park area with its DPW/recreation yard. In fact, if a school split was possible, we have 2 elementary and 1 junior high buildings within our boundaries. I hate to think of yet another municipal entity existing in the region, but this may prevent this area from declining in the next 25 years. As a resident of northwest Detroit I would consider this. I also would consider annexing to Ferndale. I don't know if Ferndale is progressive enough to accept the racial implications of this, but they would certainly benefit from our highly taxed residential tax base and low service requirements for fire and ems. Initially, police resources would need to be moderate until property crimes are reduced. Violent crime in the previously mentioned area is currently very low. |
