Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell
Post Number: 4630 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 9:40 am: | |
"If the union wants to do something worthwhile, perhaps they should go to China, Thailand, Vietnam, Indonesia, et al." Go ahead. Try it. But don't call us for to bail you when you are thrown in prison, as you will be. That is the point; our trade agreements are poorly negotiated, losers for all of us, unenforced and unenforceable. Our companies and workers don't just compete against low wage polluters, they compete against slave laborers in countries where union organizers sit in prisons. |
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 5660 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 9:51 am: | |
Yes, I agree completely with that obvious statement. Of course, that same scenario played out here when the labor movement first began as well, did it not? 1901-1918. Blood in the streets. Is it not worth fighting for now, as it was then? If they want to protect our jobs, it would have more effect there than here. |
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette
Post Number: 4141 Registered: 02-2004
| Posted on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 10:15 am: | |
JohnL, you have to choose. You decry radical statements then you say the above. I think things are going to have to get much much worse for workers in this country, then we are going to have to start all over again. Me, I'm just waiting. Which side are you on? |
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 5664 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 10:23 am: | |
I don't know Oldred. I'm hoping workers in some of these other nations will eventually demand fair treatment. The difference between the way they are treated, and workers here having a pay cut are worlds apart. Or I'd like to see properly constructed trade deals, where we don't do business with nations who treat workers like slaves. Barring those two things, though, we will just keep bleeding jobs as long as it is so expensive to do work here. That's why I think some concessions by workers in industries that are no longer what they once were will be necessary. It's either that, or lose the industries completely. We're trying to maintain a workforce on what they were able to be paid when we were the industrial powerhouse of the world. It's just not the case anymore. As I've pointed out before, Chinese workers are started to demand more money and better conditions. Factories are leaving China at a faster rate than they are leaving the U.S. now. Will there eventually be nowhere left for greedy corporations to turn for slave labor? Doubtful, but I didn't predict the China situation happening this soon, either. |
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_
Post Number: 2160 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 11:10 am: | |
quote:That's why I think some concessions by workers in industries that are no longer what they once were will be necessary. It's either that, or lose the industries completely. We're trying to maintain a workforce on what they were able to be paid when we were the industrial powerhouse of the world. It's just not the case anymore. Lock the thread. |
Living_in_the_d Member Username: Living_in_the_d
Post Number: 140 Registered: 01-2008
| Posted on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 11:17 am: | |
Yeah, According to Karl Duetch's Sociology Of Man, Is, That it can get bad, then worse, then just terrible, And people won't do anything about it. When do they actually stand up and demand better treatment?, "When things start getting better". And thats probably how its going to play out, both regionally and nationally. |
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell
Post Number: 4632 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 12:24 pm: | |
For a taste of how China handles its labor dissent we only need to follow the news from Tibet for a taste of that. Protests Turn Violent in Tibet |
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 5667 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 12:30 pm: | |
The Chicago Haymarket riot of 1886 saw many wounded, and several deaths of both police and civilians. Four of the labor protestors were hanged. The protests were calling for an 8 hour work day. |
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 5668 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 12:36 pm: | |
During the course of the Pullman Strike of 1894, 13 strikers were killed and 57 were wounded. An estimated 6,000 rail workers did $340,000 worth of property damage (about $6,800,000 adjusted for inflation to 2007). |
Terryh Member Username: Terryh
Post Number: 719 Registered: 11-2006
| Posted on Thursday, March 20, 2008 - 5:33 pm: | |
I walked a picket line in 92 when I worked for Kroger in the meat department. Most blatant antagonism and hostility I encountered in my life. Individuals I thought were friends and would be supportive expressed contempt for our cause without knowing anything about the dispute. I walked at three different stores and found we could get better results by speaking civilly to the 'scab' shoppers and workers. I passed out lit. Couldnt figure out why, when I was at the Rochester store,all those rich folks in the expensive cars just had to shop at that particular store as opposed to the Farmer Jack or specialty-gourmet grocers in the area. The scab workers didnt look like they were starving and could have found employment at the wages Kroger was paying. Is the 'rugged individualism' we have in America really survival of the fittest and selfishness? Interestingly, I met, to the dissaproval of my fellow strikers, a cute young Chinese girl, whose father was a Professor at Oakland University,while she crossed the picket line. A professors daughter had to cross our line? Didnt give it much thought then but ended up in a short relationship,father didnt approve at first but I ended up winning him over. Some reps from the World Workers (communist) party showed up at the Riverland store passing out literature. |
Erikd Member Username: Erikd
Post Number: 1006 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Monday, March 24, 2008 - 2:10 am: | |
quote:As I mentioned above those voices either reflect the jealous who think everybody should be reduced to their Walmart wage level or those who have got theirs, usually through daddy's inheritance, and have the luxury of saying 'screw you'. The first group is particularly pathetic because they don't realize that if everyone is shoved down to their level, they will see their wages cut and their jobs gone. The second are simply heartless, finding themselves on third base thinking they hit a triple. Ah jealousy, the highest compliment. Lowell, I completely disagree with your assessment of this situation. This isn't about jealousy or rich kids wanting to see everyone shoved down to Wal-mart status... The lack of support for the AAM strikers is due to the fact that they are way overpaid for the job that they do. The $30 per hour starting wage for an unskilled line worker works out to $62,400 a year, if there is no overtime worked. Compare this to the salaries payed in other professions: The NEA claims that the average salary for a teacher in the U.S. was $46,752 in 2003-2004. The average teacher salary in Michigan was $54,412. http://www.usatoday.com/news/n ation/2005-06-25-teacher-salar y-raise_x.htm Registered Nurses earn an average salary of $52,330 according to 2004 data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. http://www.allnursingschools.c om/faqs/salaries.php To be sure, the automotive line workers should be paid more than Wal-mart wages, but there is no reason why they should be paid more than teachers and nurses. |
Bigb23 Member Username: Bigb23
Post Number: 836 Registered: 11-2007
| Posted on Monday, March 24, 2008 - 4:06 am: | |
Erikd - What world are you from? For MOST skilled workers, in Michigan, now earn in the range of $9-12.00/hr. with no benefits. So $9.00 x 40 x 52 = $18,720 - 25% tax = $14,040. Gas is $3.29, Bread is $1.69, and milk is $3.15/Gal. And don't even get me started on mandatory auto insurance. Could you live your lifestyle on $14 K /year? |
Erikd Member Username: Erikd
Post Number: 1007 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Monday, March 24, 2008 - 5:07 am: | |
Bigb23, We are discussing the AAM strike. AAM wants to cut the pay of production workers from the current rate of almost $30 per hour to $14 per hour. http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=20088022603 59 I simply made the argument that $30 per hour for an unskilled factory worker was out of line, considering that most teachers and registered nurses are paid less. |
Angry_dad Member Username: Angry_dad
Post Number: 179 Registered: 02-2006
| Posted on Monday, March 24, 2008 - 6:46 am: | |
That AAM workers are paid more than the "noble" occupations is a bit misleading. You are taking the AAM wages with benefits and IGNORING the benefits of the occupations you are trying to compare. And along with that, I am reading in the use of the word "unskilled" as a method of propping up your argument. IMO, there are plenty of degreed and "noble" professions that have plenty of "unskilled" workers. The real deal is not just unions. Lowell is right, trade agreements for too long have been agreed to that are a detrement to the United States. I may be able to buy a Toyota and "enjoy" that "legendary" (mythical is a better attribute) reputation for quality but along with that I am sending a message that it's all good to turn my back on the guy down the street. And along with that I am DIRECTLY supporting trade policies that are intended to destroy the value of my currency. Go look at the history of the interest rates. They are readily available. Japan has blatantly reduced their prime rate to below a half percent for the past dozen years. You want to know why? To simply continue to run a trade surplus with us. They see the advantage of keeping the home fires burning. And along with that, they do pay their home workers well. On a worldwide scale, they pay BETTER than we do. It's no wonder they promote how they "build" cars here. They do so sith massive tax breaks and then they pay the workers less than they do in Japan. The argument that the strikers "get what they deserve" is flawed from the start. Seems more that we don't know what we have got & enjoy via the sacrifices of those in the past. And some of us don't care or want to build on that. We "want" a global economy. Too bad the global economy is a fraud. The rest of the world sees it as a way to plunder the the value of the United States. And too many of us are rich, stupid, arrogant & self loathing that they are willing to accept that. |
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette
Post Number: 4183 Registered: 02-2004
| Posted on Monday, March 24, 2008 - 10:14 am: | |
Wouldn't it be better to raise the wages of teachers and reg. nurses (who I agree are criminally underpaid)? There is a rally today at 11 am at Local 412 to support the AAM workers. If you can peel away for a while, it would be a great emotional boost for them. |
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_
Post Number: 2163 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Monday, March 24, 2008 - 11:20 am: | |
How about a rally for the thousands workers put out of work by this strike. But those are non-union workers. Think again, some who have been unable to acquire unemployment benefits due to problems with not being able to determine between the strikers trying to acquire unemployment benefits and the people who are out of work. The global economy, trade and the false belief that only other countries manipulate their currency is not the problem. The entitlement that has festered in this country is the problem.
quote:Wouldn't it be better to raise the wages of teachers and reg. nurses (who I agree are criminally underpaid)? Are they criminally underpaid? Teachers take about 25% of the allotment per student and education is terrible in this country. Quite possible many are overpaid. All on the taxpayers dime. Hospitals are throwing money at RN including huge signing bonuses. They do have a rough job but those same selfish people are the ones who make it so tough by demanding so much from a person trying ot help them. |
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette
Post Number: 4190 Registered: 02-2004
| Posted on Monday, March 24, 2008 - 11:25 am: | |
Stop it. Who is being denied unemployment? If people are being delayed or denied it's due to State of Michigan incompetence, not the AAM strikers. |
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 5575 Registered: 10-2004
| Posted on Monday, March 24, 2008 - 11:37 am: | |
It's getting rough these days for armchair liberals like ORF, who seem to be out of touch with reality and are losing almost all of their poorly fought battles, along with their "proletariat war" from the 1960s. |
7051 Member Username: 7051
Post Number: 82 Registered: 02-2006
| Posted on Monday, March 24, 2008 - 11:50 am: | |
ErikD, What kind of work do you do and approx. what kind of pay? Then we can judge if you may be overpaid also. If you are a degreed professional, I'm sure it would still be cheaper to have an engineer or doctor or lawyer, etc. do your work in India and ship it back here all at about 1/4 of your cost. In fact we may even bring that Indian here or close enough(Canada perhaps) and still only need to pay 50-60% of what you make. I know, I know....American professionals are much more efficient and intelligent than their foreign counterparts. There we'll use the brainpower of 2 or 3 offshoremen, get a better result than 1 of yourself and STILL save money. As you can see, ALL workers are replaceable and expendable, so perhaps you may support your fellow countrymen now. As a cost cutter, when I am done with the working man, I will cut costs of professionals next. Why not a buffer of decently paid working class between me(the cost cutter) and you, the professional? Or perhaps you have the elitist attitude of those who think they are at the top of the food chain and actually matter (the $100,000-300,000 per year households). In the eyes of the truly rich and their politicians, you do not matter either! Talk to us when your assets exceed 25 million(the point when large investment banks/brokers will actually contact you more than once per year regarding your account) and your annual income is at least 10-15 million. Until then you do not matter to us! |
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_
Post Number: 2164 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Monday, March 24, 2008 - 3:17 pm: | |
quote:Stop it. Who is being denied unemployment? If people are being delayed or denied it's due to State of Michigan incompetence, not the AAM strikers. Never said whose fault it was, you assumed it. |
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_
Post Number: 2165 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Monday, March 24, 2008 - 3:19 pm: | |
quote:American professionals are much more efficient and intelligent than their foreign counterparts. Funny you say that becuase the American working man does has a superiority complex when it comes to this. Maybe it comes from the overall American superiority complex. |
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette
Post Number: 4194 Registered: 02-2004
| Posted on Monday, March 24, 2008 - 3:29 pm: | |
In other words, you don't know what you're talking about. I knew that. |
Gambling_man Member Username: Gambling_man
Post Number: 1067 Registered: 11-2003
| Posted on Monday, March 24, 2008 - 4:30 pm: | |
Somebody mentioned something earlier that I don't believe is true.......The AAM workers who are on strike DON'T get unemployment, as I believe job abandonment is considered a voluntary quit. Perhaps their contract covers this possibility and allows them to collect Unemployment, but I doubt it. |
Angry_dad Member Username: Angry_dad
Post Number: 182 Registered: 02-2006
| Posted on Monday, March 24, 2008 - 4:50 pm: | |
"The global economy, trade and the false belief that only other countries manipulate their currency is not the problem. The entitlement that has festered in this country is the problem." Not a false belief: http://www.economagic.com/em-c gi/data.exe/bjap/ehdis01 Any student of economics will tell that interest rates of a currency relate to it's value against other currencies. The fed has lowered rates to make exports more competitive. Have you noticed the value of the dollar versus the Euro, vs. the Canadian dollar? "We" have had to take action to hang on to what jobs we have left. If there is such a thing as this mythical "Global Economy" why can't I finance my debt using Japanese rates? We've been looted and lied to about trade. The people that tell you protectionism is evil are just trying to sell you crap they have shipped in. The real deal is: currency manipulation is protectionism and it has been used against manufacturing in the United States. What is happening at AAM is a result of that protectionism. We are lowering our standard of living so others may maintain theirs. And in the process all that this nation strives for and the standards we have set are disregarded to enable "low prices always". |
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 5591 Registered: 10-2004
| Posted on Monday, March 24, 2008 - 5:03 pm: | |
The standard of living is measured in dollar amounts and a higher standard of living doesn't always mean that one's quality of life is better. Inflation, by itself, increases the standard of living if not measured in constant dollars. Face it, Americans will keep losing the global trade wars for the next few generations because its younger generations aren't as educated and skilled as well as before, and there are no signs that this is turning around. The US has been importing the majority of its highly experienced college professors in the critical engineering and scientific areas for three or more decades already. Ditto for those alien professionals with their special work visas. |
Kevgoblu Member Username: Kevgoblu
Post Number: 72 Registered: 02-2007
| Posted on Monday, March 24, 2008 - 7:49 pm: | |
"Face it, Americans will keep losing the global trade wars for the next few generations because its younger generations aren't as educated and skilled as well as before" You're kidding right? Detroit is in the situation it is in, primarily because for generations boys could quit school at 17 and go earn a man's wages in the plants. We've never had an educated workforce and that's what's biting us in the a$$ right now. The difference is, for years we had a captive audience in our customers. The Big 3 was the only game in town, so they excelled regardless of their "competitive" performance. Now the world is sending all their products here in search of the big spending American consumer and we can't seem to do anything to hold them off |
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 5602 Registered: 10-2004
| Posted on Monday, March 24, 2008 - 7:57 pm: | |
The US professional service industry--engineering, etc.--is increasingly being offshored. Those bitchers on DY who think that those professionals aren't suffering are delusional. Maybe, they should go to the placement offices of US polytechnical and engineering colleges and see for themselves how few recruiters interviewed there the past ten years or so, especially this decade. At some point, the US will be a country rich in natural resources but not a helluva lot more, like Brazil. Except Brazilians are better educated. |
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_
Post Number: 2166 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2008 - 9:15 am: | |
quote:In other words, you don't know what you're talking about. I knew that. I knew that once again your precious unionist attitude would blind you as always. I am sure if you took off your rose colored glasses you will find the ones who are having this battle and have not received any money since March 1st becuase of this.
quote:Any student of economics will tell that interest rates of a currency relate to it's value against other currencies. The fed has lowered rates to make exports more competitive. Have you noticed the value of the dollar versus the Euro, vs. the Canadian dollar? "We" have had to take action to hang on to what jobs we have left. Re-Read, I said it is a false belief that only other countries influence their currency and that the US doesn't do it. Similar to the belief that other countries are the only ones with illegal trade practices. |
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 5769 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2008 - 9:59 am: | |
Some consumer electronics have, in fact, returned to U.S. dominance. They may not all be manufactured here, but Japan doesn't build all of its Sonys and Toshibas these days either.
It's been so long since we had an American company in the market, I think we've forgotten that iPods and iPhones are, in fact, American consumer electronics. Last I checked Meijer didn't have two aisles dedicated to Sony Walkman MP3 player accessories. And yes, they do hire Americans. Want a job? http://www.apple.com/jobs/us/index.html |
Kevgoblu Member Username: Kevgoblu
Post Number: 73 Registered: 02-2007
| Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2008 - 12:02 pm: | |
They may have a store here where you can buy an Ipod(or work the counter selling one)but I'm not so sure about the American consumer electronics comment. Check the back of your Ipod to see where it was manufactured. I believe they are all made in China. |
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 5772 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2008 - 12:05 pm: | |
Did you read my whole post? We are always saying the Japanese dominate the consumer electronics industry, but they don't manufacture all those electronics in Japan. They are Japanese companies, though. |
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 1815 Registered: 08-2006
| Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2008 - 12:29 pm: | |
Looks like American Axle is just a personal piggy bank for the top executives. 2007 Net profits were 37 million, why one man should get 28% of those company profits in this economy is beyond me. He alone is obviously not 28% responsible for said turn around. If the strike cripples AAM I will not shed a tear. This is the key problem as I see it with American Corps these days. Too much money to pamper exces, and not enough to keep products interesting and competitive, and no concern what so ever for the economy of the country they call home: AMERICAN AXLE’S CEO GETS AN 89% RAISE. American Axle & Manufacturing Holdings Inc. paid CEO Dick Dauch $10.2 million in compensation last year vs.$5.4 million in 2006. Last year Dauch also received a $3.9 million bonus that was indexed to the company’s performance in 2006. The AAM’s board says it won’t decide on this year’s bonus, which reflects 2007 results, until after the current strike by the United Auto Workers union is settled. Dauch’s contract guarantees him a minimum bonus of $1.5 million per year. Analysts point out that Dauch’s raise is bound to anger hourly workers, who have been on the picket line for a month. AAM is demanding that workers agree to cut their wages and benefits by at least half to make its U.S. labor costs competitive. In a filing with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, the company says the higher executive pay reflects last year’s stronger financial and operating results. AAM swung to a $37 million net profit in 2007 after losing $223 million in 2006. AAM also increased the compensation of other top executives in 2007: Vice Chairman Yogendra Rahangdale,$1.1 million (+27%); COO David Dauch, $752,500 (+26%);and CFO Michael Simonte, $511,000 (+7%). |
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 5608 Registered: 10-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2008 - 3:14 pm: | |
Cambrian, let's cut to the chase... Dana is AAM's chief competitor and just came out of bankruptcy, when? This January? The media spokesman for AAM said that in order to stay competitive and stay in the US (instead of offshoring in its twelve other countries), it would need labor cuts to meet Dana's. Do you know what the labor cost for Dana is? I don't, but probably could find out if I'm interested enough to spend the time. But maybe you can dig that data out and present them here. Then, you might have some basis of fact instead of your continual anti-management, pro proletariat squawking. Apparently, Dana must have a fairly low labor cost coming out of bankruptcy. I remember the massive pay cuts that Rouge Industries (once a major part of the Ford Rouge plant) workers took a few years back when the Russian steelmaker--Severstal NA--bought its assets. The days of paying unskilled labor five to ten times what it is worth are long dead at most plants. |
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 1816 Registered: 08-2006
| Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2008 - 3:19 pm: | |
I can't believe any company that buys products from AAM could be happy that 28 cents of every dollar they spend goes to pay one guy's salary since the path to a happy capitalist society is to cut labor cost where ever possible as you seem to see it. |
Angry_dad Member Username: Angry_dad
Post Number: 183 Registered: 02-2006
| Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2008 - 3:25 pm: | |
"Re-Read, I said it is a false belief that only other countries influence their currency and that the US doesn't do it. Similar to the belief that other countries are the only ones with illegal trade practices." Show me where the United States has gone beyond other countries. I have laid out definitive proof of what Japan has done. IMO, the recent rate cuts are not so much manipulation as they are reaction to blatant manipulation. |
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_
Post Number: 2167 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2008 - 3:56 pm: | |
You are missing the point. The point is that US may in fact be the biggest offender, while many continue to believe they are a saint in this realm. We are blaming other countries for are own mess. cambrian, you math is little of. The CEO made 28% of profits. That is not the same as .28 of every dollar spent. Don't get me wrong it is still outrageous. Touting apple would be like touting Tucker as a resurgence of the domestic auto. (Message edited by _sj_ on March 26, 2008) |
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 1818 Registered: 08-2006
| Posted on Thursday, March 27, 2008 - 8:11 am: | |
My point stands, as a customer I would prefer that AAM spent their profits on R&D to let's say making, lighter stronger products that improved overall fuel economy, or investing in technologies that could be marketed as inovative to attract new buyers that typically purchase imports. Not taking those profits to solely reward one person for skillfully moving numbers around on a spread sheet. How a company spends it's profits is a direct relation ship of cost to revenue. |
Rob_in_warren Member Username: Rob_in_warren
Post Number: 97 Registered: 11-2007
| Posted on Thursday, March 27, 2008 - 9:46 am: | |
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20080327/COL 06/803270443 AAM has put the nuclear option on the table. It is time to keep the jobs here in Michigan. Make a deal. If these skilled laborers are offended by the lower wage they can find a better job. thousands of people would gladly take those jobs. The hourly guy's rates are independent of what the bigwigs make. The exec's may make way too much money, but it is their company to ruin by not investing in future products. The hourly guy should be happy to have a decent job in this global economy. Manufacturing will never come back here because of the union's reputation, despite our abundant supply of labor. All these "Made in America" slappy's would secretly kill for a Toyota plant in Detroit, but it ain't ever gonna happen. Instead the only goodwill contribution Toyota can make to Detroit is a theater at the Detroit Science Center... I'd rather have the 1000 jobs at $15/hr + benefits that the south is getting with each new plant. |
Trainman Member Username: Trainman
Post Number: 666 Registered: 04-2006
| Posted on Sunday, March 30, 2008 - 6:31 pm: | |
It's the exact same situation as the SMART Livonia opt. out. The newspapers blame the voters. It was the corrupt union busting DARTA agreement and the high paid bus drivers who did and still do nearly nothing about the cuts from the state but to cry at our city halls holding tin cups. A NO vote only defeats the tax increase and not the entire millage. We do have a choice next August 2010 to cap the SMART property tax and demand the return of federal and state fuel tax money and also demand decent industry support. In Livonia, it was Wal-Mart that won with city council tax breaks and low wages. These jobs are the ones that replaced Ford and GM. These jobs can not pay for SMART because of corruption and greed and high costs. I'm lobbying to cap the SMART property tax permanently to force the investments of state and industry support and for the fair humane treatment of all workers. So, please support my cause or challenge if you can. I have lots of support at this time and references. |
Wash_man Member Username: Wash_man
Post Number: 699 Registered: 05-2006
| Posted on Monday, March 31, 2008 - 8:37 am: | |
Help Wanted: "Axle posts help-wanted ads" http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.d ll/article?AID=/20080331/AUTO0 1/803310404 |
Scooter2k7 Member Username: Scooter2k7
Post Number: 89 Registered: 10-2007
| Posted on Monday, March 31, 2008 - 10:44 pm: | |
If those crybabies do not want to work there are plently of people who will. I can understand the strikers point of view, but we need to face the facts. This is not the 1950s anymore, you cannot make these products in the United States anymore and sell them at lower prices. This is the society we have created. We created it through Wal-mart, Home Depot, we are still creating it when we whine over the gas prices. This is what we have created and now we need to evolve. |
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell
Post Number: 4696 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Monday, March 31, 2008 - 11:07 pm: | |
So what is your solution? ^ That everybody work for minimum wage? Maybe that's too much for the US to be competitive too. It sounds like you are the one that is crying. |
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 5681 Registered: 10-2004
| Posted on Monday, March 31, 2008 - 11:15 pm: | |
Sheesh! Some 300,000 are unemployed in metro Detroit, including some 100,000 discouraged and not looking. A common-sense money bet on this is a no-brainer, Lowell. If AAM were to actively advertise for workers, there would easily be over 10,000 filling applications, I reckon. Maybe even more would show up for that lottery... |
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell
Post Number: 4697 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Monday, March 31, 2008 - 11:17 pm: | |
If I advertised for your job in India, LY, I would have 100,000 applications, all for a fraction of what you get paid. Go figure. |
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 5682 Registered: 10-2004
| Posted on Monday, March 31, 2008 - 11:29 pm: | |
I compete in a global economy and live with it, whereas some UAW crybabies carry on as if once they get hired, they can rarely get fired or replaced. The UAW reached another milestone this March--their lowest membership totals since 1941. And that was after they recruited actively in other service-sector areas than automotive. |
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell
Post Number: 4698 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Monday, March 31, 2008 - 11:37 pm: | |
"I compete in a global economy and live with it..." Enjoy the race to the bottom and remember Clemenceau's WWI observation, "The graveyards are full of indispensible people." Whatever you do can be done cheaper and better than you can, by thousands in a global economy with no barriers. |
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 5683 Registered: 10-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 12:11 am: | |
Lowell, enjoy your fairy tales and Utopian stories where unskilled laborers get paid ten times what they're worth. Those AAM strikers are abandoning their jobs and will regret it, as did PATCO eons ago. |
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 1821 Registered: 08-2006
| Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 7:25 am: | |
I shudder at the thought of our future American Generations. The idiocrosy movie was prophecy. What reason does any American have to gain advanced job skills or pursue post high school education? The way future companies located here will do business is by having a small staff with an internet connection and a rolodex full of phone numbers to people in other countries who do the real work. What type of skill is needed for that? |
Craig Member Username: Craig
Post Number: 693 Registered: 02-2007
| Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 7:51 am: | |
There's a whole world out there, Cambrian. Either we're a part of it or apart from it. Either way, we're going to give up our lock on an easy path to a comfortable life. As bleak as is the picture painted by Lowell & others re: 'race to the bottom,' it's damned instructive that our greatest economic antagonist, China, abandoned a planned economy for the free market. |
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell
Post Number: 4699 Registered: 10-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 8:41 am: | |
Soo... You want to copy China now? Now the Chinese leadership would know what to do with the AAM strikers. Gun them down. That's another way to keep your labor costs 'competitive'. It used to be done here too, right down in LY's southwest Detroit. https://www.detroityes.com/industry /45rouge_dixbridge.htm Go ahead, continue cheer on the destruction of the working American middle class and smirk at their fate by forcing them to compete with the dictatorial authoritarian regimes of LY's utopian global economy. |
Craig Member Username: Craig
Post Number: 695 Registered: 02-2007
| Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 9:00 am: | |
It's not a matter of wanting to copy China, but it is a matter of recognizing that the US either plays the game of isolation (visit East Europe under the reds & remember the desolation & shortages? it was an awful time)or we acknowledge that labor is an international commodity and will forever be priced as such. China quit the planned economy and now they're making engines for Chevy's that used to be made here. Lowell/others - I'd be happy to meet you half-way and declare that American labor should own/purchase their factories & foundries. Take out the "exploitative" class (ala Marx); work for themselves; pocket all of the proceeds. But even cutting out Dausch et al is not going to us past the fact that equally skilled labor can be found almost everywhere else in the world for a fraction of current US costs. Lock out the cheaper imports and then the single greatest benefit of the WalMarts of the world will become obvious: inflation has been held in check via price competition inspired by the threat of or as a result of the introduction of less expensive goods. |
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 1275 Registered: 02-2007
| Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 9:03 am: | |
Lowell, These guys are getting obscene return on their investments while the robberbarrons fleece whats left of our manufacturing sector. Their excuse while they stuff their pockets is "Global economy" Newsflash for the selfish, it's always been a global economy. Trade was regulated to sustain economies. Reaping dollars destined to be worthless. Whats it getting them? Craig, have you checked the value of our dollar against other currencies lately? I deal with international companies, buying and selling. Have to nowadays, there simply isn't a domestic source for many products. We aren't the powerful entity we once were. Anyone that thinks "Globalization" is going to be good for our country, needs their head examined. |
Craig Member Username: Craig
Post Number: 696 Registered: 02-2007
| Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 9:27 am: | |
"Anyone that thinks "Globalization" is going to be good for our country, needs their head examined." How far the Marxists have fallen from the call for international solidarity. You may not be a Marxist, SS, but the partisans on your side of the argument certainly sound like neo-Marxists. re: "always been a global economy" - maybe, but incompletely so. If it had been this correction involving US labor would not be necessary because wages here would have always been depressed. Why are so many surprised by the real-life manifestations of what we learned in Econ 102 (macro)? |
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_
Post Number: 2175 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 10:11 am: | |
quote:Go ahead, continue cheer on the destruction of the working American middle class and smirk at their fate by forcing them to compete with the dictatorial authoritarian regimes of LY's utopian global economy. Here we go again with this fallacy, the middle class does not exist becuase of the unions, they are not 100% union employees. The middle class is larger than the 8% of unionized workforce in this country.
quote:Whatever you do can be done cheaper and better than you can, by thousands in a global economy with no barriers. I assume you remember the old adage it is harder to stay on top than it is to challenge from underneath.
quote:That everybody work for minimum wage? $14 and hour plus benefits is not minimum wage and a damn fine wage for people who lack skills in this marketplace.
quote:If I advertised for your job in India, LY, I would have 100,000 applications, all for a fraction of what you get paid. Funny you say that becuase that is the deal that rest of the workforce deals with everyday, having to improve themselves and not relying on a job and wage that they believe is guaranteed to them for life. It is nothing but delusion. I even heard some AAM workers say they would only ok a contract if they got a raise and all back concessions. |
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 5882 Registered: 10-2004
| Posted on Monday, April 14, 2008 - 11:07 pm: | |
In the event anybody cares as this late date, Forbes issued an Auto Suppliers Sector Snap report concerning GM, AAM, and Lear: Sector Snap: Auto Suppliers |
River_rat Member Username: River_rat
Post Number: 340 Registered: 02-2006
| Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2008 - 10:16 pm: | |
River rat started this thread 2-26-2008 and it is unbelievable to me that the strike persists to this day. The comments on the thread have been thoughtful, sad and bizarre. Those who want to deny reality and live in a world that will never return somehow can not see that this plant will soon be as vacant as the many former factories that dot the city. Detroit and its manufacturing base is long gone and this strike will only hasten the slide into irrelevance. I am sorry to have to say this, but this is a sad fact. |
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 5886 Registered: 10-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2008 - 1:49 am: | |
The longer the UAW strike persists, the more AAM lines will be set up at their offshored and Mexican plants. It's hard to believe the UAW BS about AAM's tool and dies turning out garbage elsewhere than in the US, primarily due to their being located in a foreign country. Does anybody with half a brain really think that the tools know they're in the Pacific Rim or not (and perform worse there, as a result)? |