  River_rat Member Username: River_rat Post Number: 322 Registered: 02-2006 |
One big story on CNBC this AM was the American Axle strike. What is everyone thinking? This is all Detroit and Michigan need to convince business to go elsewhere. I know there will be responses about 'decent wages' dignity, etc.' Right or wrong, this strike just reinforces the rest of the country's view that this is a hopeless economy. Remember 60% of something is better than 100% of nothing. | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 1154 Registered: 11-2005 |
Bad timing, but I can't argue with the workers looking out for themselves. American Axle has a poor track record in union negotiations, so I can't say I'm surprised. The only party in this I feel sympathy for is GM. | ||
Bigb23 Member Username: Bigb23 Post Number: 584 Registered: 11-2007 |
Then 30% of something is better than 100% of nothing. Then 20% Then 15% ........ | ||
Tk65 Member Username: Tk65 Post Number: 35 Registered: 12-2007 |
Company is making money, but needs to cut wages from 70 bucks and hour to 25. Yep, go ahead and do that. I dont need to keep my house or car. | ||
River_rat Member Username: River_rat Post Number: 323 Registered: 02-2006 |
It is a conundrum for both the employer and employees, but reality has to play a part in this situation. If workers do not become more price sensitive, the jobs will disappear to "outsourcing" (aka offshore). If the company doesn't produce the product for a lower price, the product will be imported and all jobs will be lost. The wage and benefit package Tk65 cites is somewhat inaccurate, but the reality is that our past great industrial base may shrink further if our corporations and unions don't recognize that this is a new and different global economy. Don't forget that Dana (similar manufacturer) s already in bankruptcy. Very tough choices with no simple answers. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 5408 Registered: 10-2004 |
Dana is no longer bankrupt--since 1 Feb 2008. | ||
Bigb23 Member Username: Bigb23 Post Number: 586 Registered: 11-2007 |
" Very tough choices with no simple answers. " Simple answer - level the playing field with China first. Yes they can beat our labor costs, but look at the massive trade imbalance we have. They are BUYING our debt at rock bottom prices. They will soon own us - period! | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 5409 Registered: 10-2004 |
China has been buying our debt for years. They own a helluva lot of our mortgages--more than any other nation. China could send the US into a nasty recession if they wanted to. But it hurts them as much or more to do so. And yes, within a generation or two, the Asians will control (own) the US economy. It's inevitable. | ||
Bigb23 Member Username: Bigb23 Post Number: 587 Registered: 11-2007 |
Cut and run, Livernois ? | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 11354 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: And how many of those people's skills merit anything remotely close to 70 per hour. Just another case of greedy union people that will ultimately cost themselves even more jobs. The unions are doing a darn good job at killing themselves off. | ||
Digitalvision Member Username: Digitalvision Post Number: 591 Registered: 11-2003 |
Regardless of the erosion of wages, lowered standard living of workers, etc., it doesn't matter. The company will offshore if they don't get the concessions. That's the sad truth. Interestingly, this has happened to Detroit before. Back in the '50s when industry was abandoning the city factories to the suburbs and rural areas where the cost of labor was cheaper and less chance of unionization, the same decimation of business and jobs that is now happening to the suburbs in places happened to the city of Detroit. Now, it shouldn't surprise us it's leaving and has left the suburbs and rural areas. But we as a region didn't learn our lesson then that manufacturing will always go to the lowest-cost labor location and we decided to stay a one-horse town and not breed an entrepreneurial culture, and we're paying for it now. Not saying it's right, but it's the way it is. Yes, it's the loss of manufacturing hitting us hard - but if we had other major industries, we could of absorbed the blow better. That diversity should be what everyone in high-up places should encourage - but all they seem to know are cars, too. Globalization is here to stay - but if we had true fair trade I don't think we'd be in such a dire situation at all. However, my little speech doesn't help Tk65 make his/her car payment, and that is the saddest part of all. | ||
Lefty2 Member Username: Lefty2 Post Number: 1272 Registered: 07-2007 |
China Owns ME. NOT. | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 4006 Registered: 02-2004 |
On your feet or on your knees. Solidarity with the American Axle strikers. | ||
Mama_jackson Member Username: Mama_jackson Post Number: 289 Registered: 06-2006 |
Oldredfordette- Here, here-truer words never spoken. Mama | ||
Udmphikapbob Member Username: Udmphikapbob Post Number: 526 Registered: 07-2004 |
"DETROIT, Feb. 14 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- American Axle & Manufacturing Holdings, Inc. (AAM), which is traded as AXL on the NYSE, today announced plans to establish a new manufacturing facility in Thailand, near the city of Rayong, located southeast of Bangkok." Guess they need to free up some cash to build in Thailand. I'm sure those employees will be well compensated, right? "American Axle's U.S. hourly work force has been cut almost in half since 2004 thanks to two buyout programs and worker attrition. At the same time, the company has been expanding aggressively overseas. American Axle didn't have any plants outside the U.S. 12 years ago, but now has facilities in 12 countries, including plants in China and Poland." | ||
Rob_in_warren Member Username: Rob_in_warren Post Number: 78 Registered: 11-2007 |
We have to get over our old way of thinking. The unions have to be willing to roll with the economic cycles. Standing on principle is costing this region thousands of jobs. We are completely in the dark thinking that these manufacturing jobs are all "skilled" labor jobs. Some people are good machinists and some have specialized skills, but anyone in the world can assemble components with a few hours of training. Our region has to consider if we want these jobs to stay, or if we want to continue individually burying our heads in the sand. The 20th century manufacturing bubble burst a long time ago. We lived well for a long time, but maybe we should have bought more modest homes, and prepared ourselves for this inevitable drop in wages. We continue shooting ourselves in the foot thinking someone is going to save our industry, and our obscenely great quality of life. It's not going to happen. | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 4005 Registered: 10-2003 |
Spot on. ^^^^^^ | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 4007 Registered: 10-2003 |
"And how many of those people's skills merit anything remotely close to 70 per hour." Exactly. I'd like to know why a worker who has slightly more than the education level/skillset of a 7-11 employee merits a wage of $70 per hour, or even $40 per hour. What does it pay at 7-11 or Wal-Mart, generally? $10, $12 an hour? Sounds about right to me. You want the big bucks, go to school. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 5412 Registered: 10-2004 |
When the UAW agreed to the two-tier salary structure, I felt all along that the UAW would keep trying to keep raising the pay and benefits of the lower tier until the differences were minimized, however, with the 401(k) replacing the pensions. At this point, it's up to the company to win or lose. However, if AXL loses, all the NA jobs will eventually be toast. Those plants in the dozen countries will get all the US business that much sooner. But, the US plants will all close anyway... | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 5349 Registered: 10-2003 |
Interestingly, China is losing tens of thousands of factories do to higher costs caused by stricter enforcement of environmental and labor standards. In fact, in recent years, they've even been losing manufacturing jobs at a faster rate than the U.S. Many of the jobs are going to Vietnam, Indonesia, and India where labor is even cheaper than China. Meanwhile, U.S. exports to China have been rising consistently since 2000, as the Chinese people have more money to spend, and are desiring and able to afford U.S. made products. Of course, the trade deficit is still huge. Links of relevance: http://usinfo.state.gov/eap/Ar chive/2005/Mar/03-517799.html http://www.china-briefing.com/ news/2008/01/10/the-politics-o f-manufacturing-china-loses-it s-luster.html http://smallbusiness.theage.co m.au/growing/finance/made-in-c hina-loses-appeal-898516480.ht ml | ||
Rob_in_warren Member Username: Rob_in_warren Post Number: 81 Registered: 11-2007 |
^ There are great benefits from globalization. A wealthy China is a great market for American goods and services. The argument here is whether Metro Detroit (and by Detroit I mean it's manufacturing work force) is finding it's rightful place in the global market? Maybe we are now starting to realize our true worth? $15/hr with benefits is nothing to sneeze at. Two people making those wages can scratch out a good life. It's a tough pill to swallow I'm sure, but following these jobs to China or India really isn't an option. | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 4014 Registered: 10-2003 |
"Maybe we are now starting to realize our true worth? $15/hr with benefits is nothing to sneeze at. Two people making those wages can scratch out a good life." http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=20088022603 59 And, if you have to, you work two jobs, just like the uneducated, unskilled immigrants did in the early 20th century before unions. If you don't have a degree or vocational training that allows a higher wage, you scratch and save. That's reality in today's economy. | ||
Rob_in_warren Member Username: Rob_in_warren Post Number: 82 Registered: 11-2007 |
^ Nice article. Even 10 years ago the above would have been scoffed at as unbelievable. This sounds like the rise of a new attitude in Detroit. | ||
Aiw Member Username: Aiw Post Number: 6567 Registered: 10-2003 |
TRW in Windsor went out as well yesterday afternoon... http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20080228/B IZ/802280498&imw=Y | ||
Pgn421 Member Username: Pgn421 Post Number: 453 Registered: 02-2005 |
American Axle has a plant in Mexico,they can transfer all the Holbrook operation there. I used to work at Holbrook | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 1156 Registered: 02-2007 |
Quote: "That's reality in today's economy." Very true Fury. While everyone is demonizing the big bad company and telling each other to stand unified, who is standing with the company? The present administration is hosting some of the worst trade policies in this country's history. In turn destroying them. People want high wages and ultra-cheap products, pick one, can't have both. The mentality is the big bad company is making money hand over fist and we want it, the reality is: all of these companies are bleeding cash and hocking themselves into oblivion to stay afloat. The day of the Unions and the sweetheart deals is over. This is survival. We are in a different phase where unions have no place. One can either realize that and stay employed or else. But please don't be upset with your employer, rather the likes of the Clinton administration and NAFTA, and the Bush admin for sustaining it. | ||
Hamtragedy Member Username: Hamtragedy Post Number: 104 Registered: 10-2007 |
quote What does it pay at 7-11 or Wal-Mart, generally? $10, $12 an hour? Sounds about right to me. Hardly. Try less than that. $8.50 at Wal-Mart with seniority. If you're really lucky you get to be full time. Otherwise, drive to your second job at 7-11 to make the same. Then drive to your third job so you can make the rent. And who needs health insurance? Or food? But don't rankle the stockholders, because their dividends will trickle down to the rest of us. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 1305 Registered: 11-2003 |
Digitalvision wrote, "...this has happened to Detroit before. Back in the '50s when industry was abandoning the city factories to the suburbs and rural areas where the cost of labor was cheaper and less chance of unionization..." That wasn't the case with the Big 3, at least. In the '50s, they indeed opened factories in the Detroit suburbs and also moved some operations to places like Lima, Ohio-- but the jobs remained UAW-represented, at the same pay. | ||
Alan55 Member Username: Alan55 Post Number: 1283 Registered: 09-2005 |
"It is a conundrum for both the employer and employees, but reality has to play a part in this situation. If workers do not become more price sensitive, the jobs will disappear to "outsourcing" (aka offshore). " Price sensitive? So I guess that $1.65 per hour is the correct wage, since that is what the prevailing wage is in India. At $1.65 per hour, it will be really easy to buy one of those $32,000 pick-up trucks or SUVs that the American Axle products go on. Look at how may full-size pick-ups GM sells to their Indian workers. Not a word about executive pay having to be "price sensitive" - 30, 40, 50, 100 million-dollar per year bonuses are about right. | ||
Gene Member Username: Gene Post Number: 81 Registered: 10-2006 |
Had lunch last Friday at Polonia. It was definitely not busy. The waitress said the strike at American Axle is having an impact on business. |
