  Kevgoblu Member Username: Kevgoblu Post Number: 67 Registered: 02-2007 |
Transportable skill = minimal education as a truck driver; equally capable driver from Mexico can do everything that you do for a fraction of your current rate. Non-transportable = education & multiple specializations not replicable by a machine or third-world peasant. Huh? Tell me what specializations are not replicable by a machine or 3rd world peasant. Electrician? Plumber? Garbage collector? I've got quite a bit of education and "specialization" myself, but I'm not fool enough to think that I'm irreplaceable. Within the world of AAM what jobs truly are not replaceable, even for those with education? Designer? Engineer? Accountant? Logistics? Reality says damn near all jobs can be done elsewhere. Just as there's unskilled labor overseas willing to put axles together for much less money, there's also plenty of educated people overseas willing to do your job for much less money too. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Sumas Member Username: Sumas Post Number: 63 Registered: 01-2008 |
American Axle continues to have record breaking profits. Asking union line workers to take pay/bennifit cuts is inexcusable given their current profitability. One line worker interviewed said, they would consider cuts if and only if the management took the same and comparable hits in their checks. Sounds fair to me. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Pam Member Username: Pam Post Number: 3627 Registered: 11-2005 |
Where is this 70 dollar an hour figure being pulled from? The figure I saw mentioned in one of the papers was 24 dollars an hour. (Can't find the link now.) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Craig Member Username: Craig Post Number: 672 Registered: 02-2007 |
I'm not going to out myself, but I will say that I am a blue-collar kid made good: hard blue-collar work while I was a student, and now the proliterate is in the past. Just about every profession faces some risk from the global economy, but... The automotive corollary to what I "do" is a product developer. Anyone, anywhere can stamp the fenders, but determining what will sell "here" requires home-grown talent. Guys, Detroit as we knew it is cooked. The data tell us that the factory as a portal into the middle class is done, or soon will be. It sucks, and I have sympathy for those who are losing. But I'll bet that most of the grunts in Detroit are the progeny of pioneers - people who left home/old country for something better. My fervent hope is that among our wreckage a latter-day Thomas Edison is cooking up a better mouse trap and a latter-day Henry Ford will figure out a way to make it profitable. If it's me, then I'll take as many along with me as is possible, but until then you should kick your own ass for the Jet-ski and other indulgences when others were reading & learning & investing. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
River_rat Member Username: River_rat Post Number: 326 Registered: 02-2006 |
As the originator of this thread, I think we have been 'on subject' longer than most threads. Many diametric opposed views have been expressed with vigor. The appearance that there are two camps with opposing views is clear. There are the free wheeling capitalists and the more socialistic views of the 'laborites'. Craig's last comment is appreciated. I too, was a blue collar kid who held down a couple jobs while I rode the bus to Wayne State when my friends went to GM and Ford and bought their new cars and boats. Free market choices always hav e short term and long term outcomes this strike will do the same. For years, Detroiters have made the same free market choices. We have elected incompetent leaders, sat on lenient juries and supported a broken educational system. Free markets always make the choices they have to live with in the future. The American Axle strike is no different. Detroit workers have once again made the free market decision to off-shore their jobs in the future. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Frankg Member Username: Frankg Post Number: 212 Registered: 08-2007 |
Non-transportable = education & multiple specializations not replicable by a machine or third-world peasant. I disagree with this statement. Now we have engineers in India and China and even Vietnam. We have doctors in India reading x-rays for doctors in the US! We have legal research teams in India and even research units for Wall Street investment firms are located in India, jobs which formerly went to finance majors from prestigious US universities. An education helps in this global economy, but it appears it is by no means as secure as it was when I was entering the workforce! | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Living_in_the_d Member Username: Living_in_the_d Post Number: 126 Registered: 01-2008 |
Yeah, My thoughts on this thread have already been echoed by all the hard-working people who have put in their two cents. All I can really add to it without going in depth, is I too came from a blue collar background, and I wouldn't trade those years for anything. They gave Me experience, fortitude, And a true insight on how things really work. Those workers at A.A.M. deserve every penny, and then some. Long Live The Middle Class! | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dalangdon Member Username: Dalangdon Post Number: 154 Registered: 03-2006 |
There is no such thing as a free market. Markets have always been heavily regulated. The trouble is, the current regulation is skewed heavily in favor of the corporations. As for global trade being "inevitable", Bull. The tariff system supported this country for almost 150 years. It could be brought back, but the multi-nationals wouldn't have it. The people who blame unions for our economic woes are usually naive in the extreme, or perpetuating a lie for personal benefit. True, some are ideologues, but they are fools, being played by a cynical business community who's interest are not the best interest of the United States. For proof, look at their stories: Always anecdotal, and never backed up with fact. Just remember, it takes two parties to enter into a union contract: Management and labor. If management is too inept to know what they are agreeing to, or too incompetent to enforce the work rules on their end, why is that the union's fault? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 1188 Registered: 02-2007 |
Dalangdon, Great post in regard to trade. Unfortunately I think its too late. We've lost manufacturing here, it wouldn't be rebuild, but replace. A lot of companies could not even operate without imported goods, there simply isn't a US made substitute presently. By in large, labor unions were the cause so many businesses lusted for cheap foreign labor. If they hadn't been prying off ten times more than what the labor was worth, this may have never happened, or at least as quickly. The unions and employees got greedy. It's been the running joke in this town for years, get into UAW and it's all gravy from there. Ridiculous benefits packages, sick days, personal days, lengthy vacations, cost of living allowance, arbitration, grievances, lay-off rooms, etc., etc. There is a cost associated with everything. Quote: "If management is too inept to know what they are agreeing to" Well, when the whole workforce is standing out on the sidewalk and their company is idle, and bleeding cash, they don't have much choice. Thats not an agreement, it's called extortion. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 4074 Registered: 02-2004 |
They signed those contracts when there was labor peace. American Axle is profitable! Don't twist facts because you hate unions. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 1189 Registered: 02-2007 |
Quote: "They signed those contracts when there was labor peace." Yeah, undoubtedly with the threat of strike looming. Are you saying the company was just being benevolent? If companies agreed to every demand of the employees, there wouldn't be any need for a union. Thats not twisting facts. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 4075 Registered: 02-2004 |
No, do some research and get back to us. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Ghetto_butterfly Member Username: Ghetto_butterfly Post Number: 804 Registered: 09-2004 |
What about those hard-working blue-collar workers that are not so lucky to have jobs at Union companies like the Big 3 or AAM? How are they being treated? They get paid low wages based on their skills and have nobody fighting for their rights and $70 per hour. Fact is that the Unions only back a few, those who were (lucky?) enough to get somehow - mainly through connections - into a good paying, no skill requiring job at a Union-ruled company. What about the rest of the working force? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Arclight Member Username: Arclight Post Number: 3 Registered: 06-2007 |
In a free market, labor is priced based on supply and demand. Labor unions introduce a market inefficiency that yields workers above market returns in the short run. In the long run, unions either bankrupt their employer, or cause their members to lose their jobs to robots or non-unionized labor. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Warrenite84 Member Username: Warrenite84 Post Number: 259 Registered: 01-2007 |
The smartest thing we should have done in the early 80's would have been to allow the foreign transplants to come in, but ONLY if they were willing to partner with GM, Ford, Chrysler, or AMC 50-50 like China does. Since that didn't happen and we are stuck with NAFTA, we need to broker much better deals with all our trading partners. All new trade deals should be ammendable every 10 years so changes in the marketplace can be taken into account. Many complain about the fat cat union contracts but no one foresaw the skyrocketing health care costs. I am extremely thankful to be able to retrain on the company's dime because someone in the union had the sense to see that the gravy days are nearing an end in manufacturing. I don't care too much about this 'service' economy though. Service what manufactured somewhere else by whom not American? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 4593 Registered: 10-2003 |
"Fact is that the Unions only back a few, those who were (lucky?) enough to get somehow - mainly through connections - into a good paying, no skill requiring job at a Union-ruled company. What about the rest of the working force?' Labor unions back the unorganized and are trying constantly to organize non-union workers. Unions are the biggest supporters of increasing the minimum wage, workplace safety legislation, and other labor laws that benefit all workers. Your characterization is way off base. "In a free market, labor is priced based on supply and demand. Labor unions introduce a market inefficiency that yields workers above market returns in the short run." In a free market the seller of goods and services sets the price he or she wishes. This is what organized labor does, just the same as organized business does. Companies sign ~contracts~ to buy labor. If they don't like the price, no one forces them to buy it. However if we wish to wander down the dreamy ideal of a truly free market, then we would have to end all those subsidies, tax abatements and other forms of welfare routinely doled out to business. We also have to open the door to ending child labor laws, allow discrimination against women and minorities and resume open dumping of industrial wastes into our air, land and waters. There is no free market, never has been, never will be, so forget that 18th Century fantasy. There is, however, competition and we as country are losing this due to federal trade policy. Our problem lies with unfair and unenforced trade agreements that have surrendered jobs and business to slave economies that have no regard for worker safety, the environment or human rights. Don't blame it on workers, who you may scoff at for their lack of education, but are smart enough to unite for their common good -- just like business does. We were doing just fine until we opened the doors and let anyone sell their slave-produced products here. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 11417 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Waaaay too simplistic Lowell. You completely ignore the 3: Those who believe in a wage that is fair for the work done but do not support janitors making 100K. As usual there is complete exaggeration of others' viewpoints when discussing this issue. Scottr - Based upon your 'wear on the body'comments. Should dishwashers merit the same pay? I have washed many dishes in my life and that can be very tedious work. The point that is overlooked by many of the rah-rah union types is that ridiculous pay causes many to be anti-union. I am fine with a fair wage (even beyond what the market would dictate) but the unions, especially the UAW has gone so far overboard that they have driven many people like me to be strongly against them. I will concede that management was just as much at fault for agreeing to ridiculous wages but the union and their membership now negotiate with no consideration to reality. They will be the ones responsible for their own demise. 50% pay cuts are unfair but no more unfair than 80-100K for janitors. Leadership allowed unions to get to this point but unions are the ones causing their own demise and unions have also been the ones that have made many like myself to view them as just as greedy, if nor moreso than management. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 4595 Registered: 10-2003 |
Will someone please give me the real name of a real janitor who is making $100K? Jt1 I expect more from you than argument by anecdote. In reality, if we average out the annual incomes entire organized labor force, you get the true picture of what union workers make. What you will find is the American middle class. I will be happy to cite some examples with real names. Of course none of these 2007 compensations are part of the problem, are they? Hey, it's a "free market".
source | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 4596 Registered: 10-2003 |
And returning for a moment to "... a few, those who were (lucky?) enough to get somehow - mainly through connections - into a good paying..." chew on this... David C. Dauch is a son of Richard E. Dauch, Co-Founder, Chairman of the Board & Chief Executive Officer. Since January 1, 2005, David C. Dauch has served as Executive Vice President - Commercial & Strategic Development. Throughout 2004, David C. Dauch served as Senior Vice President - Commercial and Senior Vice President - Sales, Marketing & Driveline Division. AAM expects that David C. Dauch will remain an employee. His compensation from AAM in 2004 was $608,487. source | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 11418 Registered: 10-2003 |
Lowell - It is not an antedote, it is based upon my personal experience in the industry. I am not supporting the money that leadership makes. Twisting it into an either/or situation is incorrect. I doubt there is anyone on this forum that believes what the top brass at these companies make is in line with what they should receive. Overpaid leadership however does not support overpayed workers. The reality is that unions such as the UAW has skewed what the middle class should be. I don't know of too many people that would define the middle class as having a McMansion, two new cars, large toys, cabins, etc. I am not happy with the erosion of our middle class as it will and has brought about many of the issues that we are facing. But, after saying that I have a hard time believing that what the UAW workers have and have become represents a true middle class. I am all for skilled workers making top dollar as they bring specific skills to the table. Electricians, pipefitters, etc are people whose skills should demand a better wage. The problem is that the unions have taken a 'we're all brothers' approach and as opposed to rewarding those with special skills they have rewarded all workers regardless of skill. I could list an obscene number of abuses by 'protected' workers that I have dealt with in my lifetime. Does that represent the majority of the workers? No. But it does represent one of many issues that solidarity has caused. The UAW should concentrate on protecting the good workers and rewarding the workers with specialized skills. The fact that solidarity protects the best and worst and rewards unskilled as much as skilled is a major concern and a major issue. Until the UAW decides to focus on the good employees and the skilled employees I can not and will not support them. Middle class in SE Michigan has become an entitlement. A combination of cowardly leadership in the autos and stubborn unions have contributed to the situation we see. The problem is that the UAW and their members entitlement to a middle class lifestyle will be the big loser. Look no further than the people bitching about buyouts to show how much of an entitlement mentality the UAW has fostered. Michigan's problems have stemmed directly from a situation of too little education and too much income. Well, after 50 years of it the shit has hit the fan and many of us are not surprised. A recent poll by one of the papers listed, I believe, 64% of people in Michigan did not believe that education was important for their children to succeed. Those 64% are a direct reflection of Michigan will never succeed and will certainly not flourish. This state is screwed because we have depended on companies to improve our situations as opposed to trying to improve our own situations. Protectionism has made the citizens of this state, in a broad generalization, fat, stupid and with our hands out. I certainly won't be laughing while the UAW implodes but I certainly will not be shedding a tear either. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 859 Registered: 07-2006 |
quote: In my time in the restaurant business, I also washed many dishes. While certainly tedious, it still doesn't compare, at least in my mind. Every job is tedious in some ways, of course, but I will fully admit, my factory jobs were easily the most demanding. quote: And apparently you are as guilty as any, since just as many posters are complaining about the actual wages earned as are complaining about a 100k janitor, if not more. And how about the post earlier claiming that they should be paid 10-12 bucks an hour, which won't even break 25k? That's a far cry from your 100k janitor. And let's not ignore that your janitor (if he even exists) is not doing that in a 40 hour work week, he is probably working 20-30 hours overtime a week. If management has a problem with that, they should send him home when he's worked his shift - it can hardly be used as a reason for cutting wages across the board. quote: yeah, my 3% a year raise while at a tier one supplier was absolutely ridiculous. I should be ashamed to have accepted such a lavish gift, even if it didn't meet inflation. quote: I can do the same even for the non-union places I've worked. Not that I think the union is innocent in this regard (I too, have seen employees keep their jobs in cases that baffle the mind) but it is not a situation unique to union shops. For the most part, however, I actually agree with your statements on the UAW's protection of bad employees, and the lack of a system to reward good employees. I don't think 'skill' needs to be the only factor, I do feel that performance can and should be rewarded for even the unskilled workers. When working on the line i would get pissed at the idea of 'same pay for the same work' when I can run my station perfectly, while another person is stopping the line constantly and needing endless repairs, or worse yet, allowing a poor quality component to pass him or her by. It fosters mediocrity; with no incentive to do a good job, some people don't see the need to. They are in the minority, but become the weakest link and the incentive and excuse for the company to reduce wages. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Sumas Member Username: Sumas Post Number: 65 Registered: 01-2008 |
Quote: "You can't fool me I'm sticking with the union" Wobblie song. We have never been in a union but benefited greatly because they existed. Our parents fought for the cause. Our children deserve the right to jobs that pay well. We worked hard and expect them to do the same. If it takes unions to protect american workers, I'm all for it. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 2144 Registered: 12-2003 |
Lowell, Try the Detroit Free Press. An article that has been posted on this forum on more than one occasion of a Janitor at GM that was making ~80k a year. The middle class is not disappearing, the union did not create the middle class nor will the middle class be gone when all the union jobs are sent overseas. In fact it was Jimmy Hoffa who said that the Unions allowed the hard working man to be part of the middle class. Note he did not say create. The 4% number was all I could find, 4% of all nonfarm job loss. The $70 number is what it costs AXL to employee that worker per hour. ORF, ACL lost $200+ Million last year, that is not profitable. I am sorry but all of you promoting this strike and thinking it is good is full of shit. I invite to come to many a plant in Detroit to see your union brother and sisters who are on the unemployment becuase of your strike and what happens when the strike is settled, nothing. They go back to work hoping and praying everynight that the $300 if they are lucky in unemployment covers the house payment and that the benefits will last longer than the strike. I can see two warehouses outside of my office window that are now down to about 5-10 workers, empty parking lots. This is not about solidarity it is about their selfish interests and nothing more. As far CEO wage comparison, get over it. Is it fair? Who cares, that has nothing to do about it and it never will. You can strike for the next 1,000 years and it will not change, so stop trying to act you are behind this for some common good, becuase you are not. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 5260 Registered: 10-2003 |
Jobs, Ellison, Dell....their pay is justified. They created the companies that they run. The rest of the guys, eh not so much. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Steelworker Member Username: Steelworker Post Number: 1075 Registered: 02-2004 |
Im in a union and im always disappointed in the amount of people who were raised with its benefits, but talk crap about them. I am hard working and not overpaid. People deserve a decent wage. There has to be something to balance the corporate greed. Why doesnt everyone cry about how much CEO's make? But they immediately talk crap about there fellow man. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 2147 Registered: 12-2003 |
BTW, not all of us were raised with its benefits, in fact I would venture to say many were harmed more by their tactics and false solidarity BS than gained. At least I know my family was. Taking pay cuts to show solidarity only to see the UAW workers in turn get raises. Because as I said the CEO pay has nothing to do with it. The costs of the workers far outweigh the costs paid the execs. It is a nice thought but in the end that amount really makes no difference. There is a big difference between a decent wage and what is being paid in the Big Three. There is no way around it, but a 130,000 a year to employ one employee in 2008 will only continue to increase, resulting in more job loss. But for some reason this is a hard concept for many to grasp. BTW, I ran into a AXL VP. Don't know how REAL the info is, but he said they will not settle the strike at the current wage set, GM has bailed them out already and will not do it again. Even implied if the strike last much longer they start outsourcing jobs to keep the GM contracts. But take it with a grain of salt. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 5480 Registered: 10-2004 |
AAM has plants in twelve other countries. Can't the AAM workers and the UAW realize that AAM will just join Lear and the other Tiers around here with their off-shoring? How dumb can they get? And in the process, they will cause more US plants to offshore quicker than they had planned. Components are easy to make outside the country and ship to the US. Does anybody knowledgeable on DY know what AAM's immediate plans are for manufacturing their components in Asia or elsewhere? Shutting down some of the Detroit Three's plants for a while isn't all that serious knowing that there's an ample oversupply and bloated inventories already, and the demand for US vehicles still continues to drop for most models. (Message edited by Livernoisyard on March 10, 2008) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Terryh Member Username: Terryh Post Number: 712 Registered: 11-2006 |
Wheres the UFCW and UAW? Why arent there Union membership from various Unions out there carrying signs as a show of solidarity? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 4090 Registered: 02-2004 |
There has been solidarity picketing since day one, there will be more. It behooves the local media to pretend these guys are out there alone. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Wash_man Member Username: Wash_man Post Number: 662 Registered: 05-2006 |
"There has been solidarity picketing since day one, there will be more." Solidarity? Why didn't UAW members every where walk off the job the minute the American Axle employees did? I thought that's how unions expressed solidarity. But instead they stayed on the job until their plants ran out of parts so they could take the lay off at 95% of their pay. Yeah, THAT'S solidarity! |
