  Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 4092 Registered: 02-2004 |
Good question. The day we have a real general strike in this country will be the happiest day of my life. The whining of the right will be deafening that day. I'll have to remember my ear plugs. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 11420 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote{Im in a union and im always disappointed in the amount of people who were raised with its benefits, but talk crap about them. I am hard working and not overpaid. People deserve a decent wage. There has to be something to balance the corporate greed. Why doesnt everyone cry about how much CEO's make? But they immediately talk crap about there fellow man.} Steelworker - You have a valid point and I agree depending upon the work and pay some union members are earn a fair living for the work. That, to me, should put some of the more abusive ones under the microscope to other unions. As for CEO pay I think that most of us agree it is disgusting the amount of pay many CEOs/top execs get. SCottr - I couldn't agree with your last paragraph more. I goes back to my comment to Steelworker. There are unions that ensure that those in the union stay upto date on training, ensure that they work in a safe environment and negotiate a fair wage for the work. It is the abusive unions that protect the lesser workers that will continue to tail the view of all unions. Protectionism can be good but can also result in major abuse. (Message edited by jt1 on March 10, 2008) | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 11421 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Nice attitude. Extremism does nothing and wishing for a situation like this shows your real attitude. What is funny is comments and attitudes like ORF are the reason many of us are so anti-union. Sadly her voice and lack of any foresight will completly overshadow the rationale voices like Scottr and Steelworker. The extremists are what has turned many against the unions and the extremists will be the ones that help bring themselves and their unions down. | ||
Skylark Member Username: Skylark Post Number: 31 Registered: 08-2007 |
If there was a general strike I'd be the only one there, Everyone else would be too afraid of losing a days pay or maybe even their job. | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 4093 Registered: 02-2004 |
Golly, Jt1, I guess I'm just not subservient enough for you. Do you want a chorus of "We don't need your millions, Mister. We just want our job"? *sniff* Get in line, Skylark. Be a good boy. | ||
Flanders_field Member Username: Flanders_field Post Number: 168 Registered: 01-2008 |
"In the US, they came first for the manufacturing jobs... And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t employed in manufacturing anything... And then they came for the trade unionists... And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist... And then they came for the tech jobs... And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t employed in a tech field... And then....they finally came for my job... And by that time there was no one left with a good job to speak up for me..." | ||
Arclight Member Username: Arclight Post Number: 4 Registered: 06-2007 |
“In a free market the seller of goods and services sets the price he or she wishes. This is what organized labor does, just the same as organized business does. Companies sign ~contracts~ to buy labor. If they don't like the price, no one forces them to buy it” Lowell you are absolutely correct. When organized labor demands too much for their labor, management shops elsewhere. Judging from the ever shrinking union rolls, the price the unions are demanding is more than the market is willing to pay. It is simple supply and demand economics. I am glad you grasp this basic economic tenet. “However if we wish to wander down the dreamy ideal of a truly free market, then we would have to end all those subsidies, tax abatements and other forms of welfare routinely doled out to business. We also have to open the door to ending child labor laws, allow discrimination against women and minorities and resume open dumping of industrial wastes into our air, land and waters.” I am not really sure what any of this has to do with the price a company pays for labor, but I will play along. Tax abatements aren’t really a form of welfare; it is merely the government taking less money out of the private sector. If left in the private sector, these profits generate GDP growth which in turn raises the standard of living. Or you can place these profits in the public arena and get little or no impact on GDP. My personal preference is to not tax corporations at all. Profits are already taxed when they are paid out in dividends, or if the profits are not distributed to shareholders, they are reinvested into the company. By eliminating the double taxation of corporate profits, products are less expensive, which makes them more attractive to foreign markets. As for child labor laws, discriminatory practices and pollution, I can’t imagine what point you are trying to make. | ||
Bearinabox Member Username: Bearinabox Post Number: 550 Registered: 04-2006 |
quote:That the consequences of implementing a truly "free market" with unfettered corporate greed would be undesirable to most rational people? | ||
Arclight Member Username: Arclight Post Number: 5 Registered: 06-2007 |
"That the consequences of implementing a truly "free market" with unfettered corporate greed would be undesirable to most rational people?" Still don't understand your point. I am not advocating that corporations break the law. Capitalism operates quite effectively in Constitutional Republics such as the United States of America. In fact the rule of law is a key ingredient for the success of capitalism. Witness the abject failure of capitalism in Russia due in large part to corruption and the lack of law enforcement. (Message edited by arclight on March 10, 2008) (Message edited by arclight on March 10, 2008) | ||
Wash_man Member Username: Wash_man Post Number: 663 Registered: 05-2006 |
"In the US, they came first for the manufacturing jobs... And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t employed in manufacturing anything... And then they came for the trade unionists... And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist... And then they came for the tech jobs... And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t employed in a tech field... And then....they finally came for my job... And by that time there was no one left with a good job to speak up for me..." I thought this Geoffrey Fieger commercial was banned! lol | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 11422 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Not too subservient, just too stubborn or ignorant to realize that the unions are killing themselves. The charge is led by the hard liners like yourself. I have nothing to gain or lose by the union decline. I am an observer that can clearly see that people like you are the reasons that unions are so disliked. How about a chorus of 'We don't want excessive pay for jobs that anyone can fill and do not require any specialized skills or education' What is humorous is that you are hurting the 'brothers and sisters' of future generations with your hardline attitude. You may claim otherwise but unions like the UAW have become nothing beyond 'Fuck you, I got mine.' The two tiered wage is a prime example of older union members supporting 'fuck you, I got mine.' I'm sure you will soon be one of the retirees that will fight tooth and nail for your pension with no regard to current or future workers. If the unions served their intended purpose I would support them. They have become just as bad as the CEOS that get ridiculous pay. | ||
Jrvass Member Username: Jrvass Post Number: 508 Registered: 01-2007 |
Jt1, Wanna have some fun? Look up the compensation of some union bosses that is extorted from union members' paychecks! | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 11424 Registered: 10-2003 |
ORF - I have a question for you. For a unskilled line worker at AA with 3-5 year experience and average performance what would you say the deserved pay should be set at? I would say around $17/hour with no pension. Cutting 50% is not right but paying $29 an hour is not either. What would you say that person deserves? Please include benefits and pension info as well. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 5485 Registered: 10-2004 |
There must be some 300,000+ unemployed in the Tri Counties--counting the 100,000 discouraged workers that the newspapers estimate from time to time, the 180,000 or more that the BLS counts (the so-called US official gubbermint figure, and the tens of thousands of HS grads and dropouts living in their parents' basements and whatever. If AAM would offer those jobs to those unemployed at even $9/hr (the lowest rate that Delphi tried to swing before GM bailed it out), those jobs would be snapped so fast that those AAM strikers would be crushed to death (along with any falling job seekers) by the stampedes for those "lousy" jobs. Just as what happens at the malls in Novi when 3000 or more show up for a dozen or so publicly announced job openings. | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 2151 Registered: 12-2003 |
That is the problem, if that statement is true. If people will rush for those $9 an hour job then the market is too high and you are all screwed. Of course if we weren't all slaves to the auto industry we wouldn't be in this mess. Mass Transit, other industries, etc. But no we continue to elect based upon the Union Hall and implement Union Hall policies. There is a reason that cities pay over 70% of their tax revenue to personnel and schools pay over 25% of their student allotment per teacher. You view this as the end, I view this as the beginning of a market correction others have went through and now Michigan must face the harshness of it. | ||
River_rat Member Username: River_rat Post Number: 327 Registered: 02-2006 |
UAW and Detroit take notice. BMW just announced that they will expand with an addition to the plant in South Carolina ($800M). VW is also looking at sites in the Southeastern US. Why not Detroit? Answer - American Axle. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 5488 Registered: 10-2004 |
Toyota is building again in Mississippi according to a Forbes or MarketWatch email received yesterday... | ||
Karl_jr Member Username: Karl_jr Post Number: 225 Registered: 06-2007 |
"Why not Detroit? Answer - American Axle." Bullshit Answer - Right to work | ||
Living_in_the_d Member Username: Living_in_the_d Post Number: 129 Registered: 01-2008 |
Yeah, Here Here, Karl Jr., Well put And Well Said. And that's exactly what the topic of the next thread should be, Right to work, or as I like to call it, Right to fire, Right to screw with you, Right to ruin Your life, etc... | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 11427 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Or right to retain jobs, right to lure investment, right to not have the highest unemployement rate in the nation | ||
Ghetto_butterfly Member Username: Ghetto_butterfly Post Number: 805 Registered: 09-2004 |
"Right to Work", excuse my ignorance, but what exactly does it mean? I never understood this concept, only that some people are very opposed to it. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 4776 Registered: 12-2005 |
There's quite a bit to chew on here: Right-to-work law. | ||
River_rat Member Username: River_rat Post Number: 330 Registered: 02-2006 |
Really now, Karl_jr! Michigan and Detroit will retain the closed shop principal until the last shop closes. That will be great for the economy and workers, right? | ||
Living_in_the_d Member Username: Living_in_the_d Post Number: 130 Registered: 01-2008 |
Yeah, R.T.W. , is something that I personally experienced, it is a bad, bad thing. Unless You have had a first person account with R.T.W., it would be best not to show your lack of wisdom by supporting it. All others who simply wish to understand the finer points of it, I would be more than happy to explain. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 5494 Registered: 10-2004 |
Yet, reality shows that the RTW states get virtually all the significant foreign auto-assembly relocations and expansions. When Jenny leaves the country to supposedly lure some other than token foreign business, I hardly think that the leaders of those firms ever take her seriously as they're not stupid. Instead, it's essentially another junket or vacation for her. | ||
River_rat Member Username: River_rat Post Number: 331 Registered: 02-2006 |
RTW states seem to have increasing populations, more jobs, increasing income levels. Please, Living_in_the_d, explain. | ||
Living_in_the_d Member Username: Living_in_the_d Post Number: 131 Registered: 01-2008 |
Yeah, Let me try to keep this short,(almost Impossible), Lets pick a business at random that is both here, and in any typical RTW state, Oh.. lets say, a casino. Lets say this typical casino has a few openings, a hundred or so, so you get ready to go down to put in your app, and what do you see?, Any where from a few thousand to endless thousands of people waiting in line for the same position. So you get to the front of the line and you submit your paperwork, are asked a few questions, and are told: "We may call You in 6-8 weeks, Next. Oh, did I mention that this job is under 15 dollars an hour, with or without tips, depending on your classification, and the highest You can go is 16.75/ hour after about ten years on the job. And this is one of the top jobs you can possibly hope to have in a RTW state, Other than a plant job (same difference), which I will touch on in another thread. Interesting foot note on this, if your particular casino is union, You have some modicum of dignity, if it is not, you are basically chattle. And if your establishment does decide to organize, Management brings in professional people to " discourage " You from voting pro-union, and How much management really loves and cares for you, right down to the last minute till the votes are cast. One more little tidbit, and as they say," I got a million of them", One infamous thing that stands out, is the time that it was found that management was making less than the dealers, so instead of corporate paying their managers more, it was decided that it would be more fiscally responsible to take the tips from the dealers, and divide them equally amongst the managers. (True Story). And I will touch on things in future posts that also come with RTW, Such as disparity in housing, transportation, and dare I say, Quality of Life. Don't like it?, then move aside, cause the person behind You will, or the person behind them, or the person behind them,etc.. An endless supply of laborers for the RTW states and their corporate masters | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 11428 Registered: 10-2003 |
So you would prefer to be unemployed than have an opportunity to a RTW job? Your statement "And this is one of the top jobs you can possibly hope to have in a RTW state," is one of the silliest things I have read in awhile. If you want to amend that to read "And this is one of the top jobs you can possibly hope to have in a RTW state, if you have no marketable job skills or education" I would agree. Your entire post shows how union supporters (not all) see the entire job market and all industry from a POV that only reflects the small segment you represent and identify with. It's a big world out there and a narrow POV does not represent reality. (True Story) - I have been offered jobs in RTW states making more than I do in Michigan. I have been actively recruited by companies in RTW states but Michigan has very few opportunities. Why is that? | ||
Frankg Member Username: Frankg Post Number: 219 Registered: 08-2007 |
The decision whether or not to locate a business in a state has many considerations - state and local taxes, proximity to suppliers, proximity to customers, infrastructure, energy, skill of workforce, etc. The unionization rate may be one of these variables, too, but this really loses significance in the presence of so many other variables. However, RTW does not change the rules for certification of a union one iota. So a business is just as likely to be unionized in a RTW state vs a nonRTW state, all other factors being equal. I have yet to see a decent academic study that shows that enacting a RTW law brings in more business, holding other these variables constant. | ||
Living_in_the_d Member Username: Living_in_the_d Post Number: 132 Registered: 01-2008 |
Yeah, like I said before, If You have not had first person work experience in a RTW, In any capacity, You will show a lack of wisdom supporting it.In a RTW state, most jobs are straight commission, no benefits, at, or around 7.50 an hour. No sick days, no medical, no days off (even if your gravely ill), someone else will be hired to fill Your spot, (their waiting at the door). Now back to the real gist of RTW, No matter what position you hold except for the ruling class,(They get a golden parachute), You may be fired or asked to leave at anytime in your career, 1 day or 20 years later, for any reason at all, That is managements right. They also have a right not to pay you, and not to listen to any grievences, based on how they feel that day. They would prefer that You take it up with that particular states labor board, and when they get to your case in a few years at best, Your case will be "mediated" by a rep that works for your particular company. And I would suggest for anyone who has been offered an opportunity by a RTW state, to take it, and then come back later and post all their positive experiences on D-YES. |
