  The_lady_in_blue Member Username: The_lady_in_blue Post Number: 1 Registered: 07-2008 |
Today, there is a real crime being perpetrated at the corner of Michigan and Trumbull, and it is urgent that as many people as possible learn that things are NOT necessarily as the city of Detroit would have them believe. Within and adjacent to city government, it is equally important that certain individuals realize that the public as a whole is not — nor has been — in the least fooled by the political posturing and inept attempts at stadium preservation that have characterized the last few years of the drama surrounding the old ball park. The implied malice of punching an eight-foot hole in an outer wall rather than using a ten-foot gate adjacent to the hole has provided an eloquent underscore for the lies and half-truths that that city officials have foisted on the public for the last nine years. In truth, the destruction of Tiger Stadium has very little to do with a ball park. It is the final denouement of a story of greed, selfishness, and, on the part of the city of Detroit, blind stupidity. Some weeks ago (before demolition began), I challenged the Detroit City Council to look hard at the stadium issue — not from the standpoint of sentiment, or even educated respect for history, but from the perspective of fiscal responsibility and intelligent city operation. For Council to do this, it would first have had to admit that no fair chance ever was offered to the individuals and corporations that, for the last nine years, sought a more sensible resolution to the stadium issue, and that, in fact, the city was (and continues to be) aggressive in preventing such proposals from being fully developed. Council obviously did not rise to the challenge. However, I have appended my letter to them below. I call reader attention in particular to the bullet lists of multi-million dollars of lost opportunity. My hope is that at least one person attending this forum may find something in that letter to cause him or her to say, for whatever reason, "Oh my God! What have we done? What have we let happen?" and thus the loss of one structure may at least help to provide insurance for other landmarks in similar straits. LETTER TO COUNCIL Attn.: all members of Council We have left undone those things which we ought to have done; And we have done those things which we ought not to have done; And there is no health in us. For the 400-some years that the faithful of the Church of England have uttered those words in general confession, it has been presumed that the two sins were separate – that is: the sin of acting or the sin of failing to act. The Detroit City Council has the unique opportunity (if it can be called that) to commit both sins in one fell swoop, and if it succeeds, the public at large may be further convinced that there is no “health” south of Eight Mile Road. Or common sense. Or ability to add and subtract. I refer to the June 1 deadline to decide the fate of Tiger Stadium. If Council allows the DEGC to act according to the selfish wishes of the few, the city’s representative body will have failed to exercise fiscal responsibility, and, at the same time, will wield the wrecking ball that demolishes an important piece of not just the city’s, but the nation’s heritage. Please accept this one last plea that the Council exercise what power it has to see that the right thing is done with Tiger Stadium. At the very least, it is hoped that Council will recognize the Old Tiger Stadium Conservancy’s guarantee to offset the $369,000 kickback money promised the DEGC by contractors preparing for stadium demolition. Saving some part of the original structure is at least better than the utter lunacy of destroying the entire thing – notably doing so without any specific plan for property reuse. (I need not point out to any Detroit resident that, in a city pockmarked with “urban prairies,” razing existing buildings is certainly no guarantee of new construction.) I believe that Council has veto power over total demolition. It should exercise that veto. On the other hand, in a city with worse than no mayor and a governmental structure based on cronyism and a frightening tangle of private and public obligation, it is left to Council to recognize and protect the huge profit potential that goes away when Tiger Stadium falls. Far from being an albatross around the neck of a struggling Corktown, Tiger Stadium / Briggs Stadium / Navin Field, even as it stands today, represents a significant financial asset for both its local community and the city. The structure’s real value fluctuates wildly with the many plans for its reuse (several admittedly absurd) that have been proposed to date. Ironically, one of the least lucrative solutions is that put forth by the Old Tiger Stadium Conservancy. But, with minor modification, the OTSC solution becomes one that can buy the city approximately ten (10) million dollars in federal and state tax credits right off the bat – no pun intended. (This figure is based on preliminary studies done by an expert in the field of historic restoration – name and contact information available on request.) Deliberately handcuffed by an edict that limits any ongoing public arena at the corner of Michigan & Trumbull to 3,000 seats, the Conservancy has created an architectural plan that “conserves” very little. But if true historic preservation is attempted – if the wrecking ball stops at natural breaks in the Navin Field core, and if the resulting ballpark consists of the historic playing field and a grandstand (less its outfield components) that represents genuine restoration to a certain period in its history – then all else is possible. Obviously, the 3,000 seat limitation is moot if legislation is passed forbidding more than 3,000 seats being sold for any single event. It also is entirely possible that historical commissions would be satisfied with the preservation of a structural outline, with or without the park’s original full complement of seats. Look at what a genuine effort at historic preservation brings: • Those tax credits – ten million dollars worth of them. • Additional jobs and commerce provided by businesses already on record as willing to come downtown on the condition that a significant portion of the park is preserved. • Housing for museums that range from the Harwell collection to traveling exhibits from Halls of Fame. • Federal recognition and support beyond tax credits, orchestrated by the very influential Senator Carl Levin. • A venue suitable for college and amateur competitions (including American Legion Ball) important enough to draw out-state and out-of-state participants and spectators, thus feeding hotel and restaurant business. • A venue for vintage base ball and women’s teams and others that perforce must pay the city for use of the park and playing field. • A significant historic site and tourist destination which carries a positive image that reflects accordingly on the rest of the city. • A picturesque structure to complement neighboring casino, office, and entertainment development. • An opportunity to be the first city in America to do what has been done time and again in Europe – i.e.: reuse a valuable historic structure in a way that is practical and protects the heritage of future generations. And, for the demolition contractors and developers: • Historic preservation status permitting genuine fundraising, including corporate grants that may include collateral development. • Significantly lower demolition costs because the stadium is cut at a logical structural point. • Significantly lower restoration costs because there is no need to create a costly “end cap” for stands severed at an illogical point. • Ample room left along Cochrane and Kaline and part of Trumbull for new construction in the form of shops and housing units. I do not need to tell Council that, in nearly ten years, no serious proposal for stadium reuse, particularly no proposal that has shown the potential for success, has been allowed to get off the ground. The chicanery and manipulation that have prevented any serious bidder from presenting a mature, fully developed plan boggle the mind. If nothing else, preservation opponents have been creative. But it is June 1, and Council has one last chance to make itself and the city look good. Certainly, there never will be a better moment. In Detroit, we are hungry for something upbeat, something as American as apple pie to offset the embarrassment brought down on us by a megalomaniac mayor. The state, reeling from the black eye given it by its premature presidential primary, needs an alternate reason to be part of national news. The sports world, facing the pending loss of Yankee Stadium, is ripe to celebrate the preservation of a park even older. But, most of all, cash in hand from tax credits will do a helluva lot more for the city of Detroit than will the existence of one more vacant city lot – however famous its address. | ||
Harpernottingham Member Username: Harpernottingham Post Number: 398 Registered: 04-2006 |
Ahh ... Joseph Priestly's lady returns. You said a mouthful, ma'am. Come on down to the Anchor July 17 ... Love to see you again. | ||
Urbanoutdoors Member Username: Urbanoutdoors Post Number: 974 Registered: 11-2005 |
Amen! | ||
Jasoncw Member Username: Jasoncw Post Number: 532 Registered: 07-2005 |
10 million dollars sounds like a lot saying it like that, but in reality, that only offsets part of the cost of renovating the stadium. I don't think it's realistic to expect that businesses will not come to Detroit because Tiger Stadium is not there, and if a condition of their business operations is Tiger Stadium's existence, I doubt they're a very good business in the first place. The city doesn't have the money to maintain the simple grass parks it has now, it doesn't have the money to maintain a a large professional and historic stadium. Likewise, most organizations and museums and things in the city aren't in the position to buy or maintain the stadium either. No one has the money to operate a really really expensive community ballpark. People have had a DECADE to raise money for the stadium, and how much was raised? A few hundred thousand dollars? Making the stadium officially historical is not going to suddenly produce the amount of money needed. Demolition costs are very small compared to the total cost of other propositions. Demolishing things is relatively cheap. No one is going to pay millions and millions of dollars so that the demolition is a little cheaper. I think the reality is that the stadium is a single purpose building, in a city where there is not demand for that purpose, and where there is not high enough of demand in other things to justify the cost of a creative re-use. At the same time, there isn't a shortage of land in corktown, so if a developer really wanted to build something there, they don't need to demolish Tiger Stadium to do it. And some developers have wanted to build there, and they did it, and didn't need the stadium demolished for it. I don't know if the stadium has been a source of crime, but securing the building, and basic maintenance costs money which people don't have (would you rather pay taxes to keep the stadium going, or would you rather see more money for police or schools for your neighborhood?). Aside from that, the city probably doesn't want another symbol of decay like MCS in the city, even if it means wiping out history. I think it would be great if Tiger Stadium was kept and used, but I would also like it if Hudsons was still around, or if MCS was still in use. I don't know how many decades it would take for Tiger Stadium to be usable for something, and I don't know how long the stadium would have before it just simply fell apart, and I don't know the negative effects that would happen in the meantime, but I think demolishing it now does make sense, though we'll never feel good about it. It's kind of like an abortion. | ||
Cub Member Username: Cub Post Number: 564 Registered: 02-2007 |
Damn! Nothing is like an abortion. | ||
401don Member Username: 401don Post Number: 623 Registered: 11-2007 |
Well stated Jason - but the abortion comment was over the top. Maybe just compare it to an enema instead.  | ||
Macknwarren Member Username: Macknwarren Post Number: 51 Registered: 10-2007 |
I second Jason's post. At this point, saving Tiger Stadium just seems absurd. | ||
Duke_sims Member Username: Duke_sims Post Number: 21 Registered: 05-2008 |
They should have torn down the Book Cadillac years ago. Oh, wait... | ||
Melocoton Member Username: Melocoton Post Number: 28 Registered: 01-2008 |
I dunno, Jason's post just sounds pretty defeatist to me. I'm skeptical about the OTSC--about why they've made such a late appeal for $$, about how the whole plan seems to hinge mysteriously on Engler bringing home some bacon in Congress--but I like their basic idea (to keep the field and some home plate stands as a youth baseball park) alot. I don't think some posters have even read the proposal. He says, "I think it would be great if Tiger Stadium was kept and used, but I would also like it if Hudsons was still around, or if MCS was still in use." Tiger Stadium doesn't HAVE to go the route of Hudson's and the MCS--it's not like it's our destiny or something that old treasures must be demolished and replaced with parking lots. It doesn't make any sense to demolish the stadium to anyone but the crews profiting from the demolition, and perhaps their friends in city government. Without any other plan in place for the land, and with Detroit lacking quality ballfields, why not use the stadium as an asset--make something nice for the community out of what Illitch left behind? | ||
Rjk Member Username: Rjk Post Number: 1141 Registered: 11-2003 |
There's been no leadership shown by anyone involved with the Tiger Stadium site. They're trying to raise money almost ten years after the Tigers moved out of that place and a deadline is approaching? I would have tossed some money in the donation box in 1999 if a sound plan was in place and someone stepped up and took the leadership reins. Almost ten years later, no thanks. (Message edited by rjk on July 05, 2008) | ||
Retroit Member Username: Retroit Post Number: 301 Registered: 04-2008 |
The_lady_in_blue, welcome! You get an A+ for you passion in preservation and an F in believing you can talk sense into the clowns that run this city. Have you tried bribery or marrying into the Kilpatrick clan? | ||
Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit Post Number: 1001 Registered: 03-2008 |
Duke_sims said; "They should have torn down the Book Cadillac years ago. Oh, wait..." Yes, if the Book Cadillac was torn down, we might have a renovated Statler, or Maddison-Lennox, or Book Tower, or even MCS. We don't have enough power to make change by building abortion... That's just my opinion. | ||
The_lady_in_blue Member Username: The_lady_in_blue Post Number: 2 Registered: 07-2008 |
One last point here that some of you seem to be missing: While it is perfectly true that lack of leadership has made recent attempts at stadium preservation less than effective, this does not apply to earlier efforts. There have been several (not dozens) but several well-thought through, well coordinated approaches to reuse of the Corner. Most of these have been variations on a theme first proposed by the Tigers themselves before Mike Ilitch bought the ball club, i.e.: taking the structure back to Navin Field appearance, limiting capacity, increasing available land for new construction, and using the entire place as a venue for any number of activities that support the history of the game and are capable of funneling tourist dollars into the city. Each time a proposal has shown real promise, the city has leaped to action, becoming instantly pro-active in PREVENTING a mature version of the proposal from reaching them. The most common way of doing this has been to treat initial inquiries as if they were full-blown proposals, rejecting them as incomplete (because they were), and then using unrealistic deadlines (and even locking down the stadium) to render it impossible for the proposer to do an analysis and present a complete package deserving of approval. Whether we feel part of the stadium should remain standing or whether we feel that it is time to "restore" the flat land of the Haymarket, what absolutely MUST come out of this fiasco is a new determination that private interest once and for all lose its control of public decision-making, and that government corruption in Detroit has had its day. The stadium issue, the text-messaging scandal, and the waste-management scandal are all tips of the same enormous iceberg. With luck, the Tiger Stadium issue directly affects enough people -- and affects them nationwide -- that Detroit will say collectively that "we are mad as Hell and not going to tolerate it any more." | ||
Urbanoutdoors Member Username: Urbanoutdoors Post Number: 975 Registered: 11-2005 |
"Whether we feel part of the stadium should remain standing or whether we feel that it is time to "restore" the flat land of the Haymarket, what absolutely MUST come out of this fiasco is a new determination that private interest once and for all lose its control of public decision-making, and that government corruption in Detroit has had its day. The stadium issue, the text-messaging scandal, and the waste-management scandal are all tips of the same enormous iceberg. With luck, the Tiger Stadium issue directly affects enough people -- and affects them nationwide -- that Detroit will say collectively that "we are mad as Hell and not going to tolerate it any more." I find this to be an excellent point why is it that the people in and surrounding the city feel so powerless, when will people say enough is enough and actually take action to stop such atrocities against our city. I really think Southeast Michigan deserves better and needs to demand much more from its elected officials if we don't start becoming more proactive than we are prisoners of our own plight. Is it fair that we can provide corporate welfare to millionaires while the city and its taxpayers bare the brunt of the burden? We need to demand more! It is said that there is power in numbers, and we have the numbers but we need to build a capacity for change. Why the F@#$ do we just sit there like the house by the side of the road and take it up the @$$ while these sweet deals make millionaires richer? | ||
Retroit Member Username: Retroit Post Number: 313 Registered: 04-2008 |
The_lady_in_blue, those last few lines deserve a standing ovation. I was opposed to Comerica Park and support your efforts, but it is a sad, sad, oh-so-sad fact that the mayor and council of this city could not successfully run a hot dog stand and I think you may be wasting a lot of your precious energy on a losing battle. Sorry, for being a naysayer. I hope I'm wrong, but the nightly news proves my point. | ||
Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit Post Number: 1003 Registered: 03-2008 |
I agree with the whole bit about the city... ...But I didn't give my hopes up about the stadium being saved. It was clear that the city leaders were never able to see the potential there. That building was going to be torn down without negotiation... they made that clear awhile ago. Many have the same view of MCS. Luckily there are still several around that do not. Like The Maddison-Lennox, Tiger Stadium was always going to come down. It would have taken a miracle to save it. While miracles do happen, they don't happen often enough to be figured in. Book-Caddillac on the other hand was said to be saved from day one. Words mean a lot more than people think. I don't know why, maybe it shows how big headed some are around here? Why knows? But, Tiger Stadium was always on my "unsavable list" for that reason. (Message edited by sean_of_detroit on July 05, 2008) | ||
Jasoncw Member Username: Jasoncw Post Number: 533 Registered: 07-2005 |
Hudson's and MCS and Tiger Stadium are the way they are because they were designed for a certain use, but aren't flexible enough to be changed into other things. Investors who were in the position to invest thought that there was a demand for hotel and residential. The BC could practically accommodate those purposes, so it was renovated. The only purpose Tiger Stadium can accommodate is baseball. And it's not in the interests of any baseball related organization to spend the money to renovate the stadium. The stadium could be mothballed until the day it can be used again, but that day might never come. And mothballing the building for decades is expensive. And what if the building is kept, and all of the shady activity in the building across several decades accumulates into a murder? What if the building becomes an icon of blight, and deters investors? There's a good chance that the stadium will be a thorn in the city, and a slim chance that it be something positive for it. Now, if it were up to me, the Tigers would have never left the stadium, and it would have been renovated. The money that the city would have spent getting everything together for the new stadium downtown could have been spent improving and encouraging development in corktown. This leaves Tiger Stadium and its history in use, and it leaves the demolished buildings for Comerica standing. Those buildings could have still be viable as other things, and they might have been getting renovated as we speak. | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 1282 Registered: 11-2005 |
Book-Caddillac on the other hand was said to be saved from day one. Not true. The Book-Cadillac almost met the wrecking ball in 1984. Coleman A. Young wanted to tear that (now not such a piece of) schitt down. And I firmly believe that a main reason why the stadium will not be saved is because Mike Ilitch doesn't want it to be saved. It detracts from Comerica Park and makes him look like a bad guy (he is) for prying the Tigers from the Corner. And what Mike Ilitch wants in this city, he gets. Example: "Oh? What's that you say? It would be ILLEGAL for me to tear down the Madison-Lenox? A court order, you say? Just TRY to stop me!" And what do you know? We now have another frickin' parking lot where he can charge $25 a car to park. He gets richer and the city, through a loss of another piece of its history, gets poorer. (Message edited by rhymeswithrawk on July 05, 2008) | ||
Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit Post Number: 1006 Registered: 03-2008 |
I disagree that MCS is on that "inflexible" list. | ||
Ravine Member Username: Ravine Post Number: 2428 Registered: 01-2006 |
The_lady_in_blue is hereby nominated for the Best First Post Ever award. Her post was not only powerful in its message; it was very well-written. While I applaud the post, and wish that we & Tiger Stadium had not come to this juncture, come to it we have. The Tigers left that ballpark eight years ago. The club had already considered possible renovation ideas, and elected to move on to a brand-new park. During the course of the past eight years, there has been much wailing & gnashing of teeth over the matter of Tiger Stadium, along with some relatively practical proposals supporting its preservation. However, neither the wailing & gnashing nor the proposals has caused even one solitary thing to actually happen, and the building has sat there, and sat there, leaving me-- a true lover of Tiger Stadium-- to believe that if anything good was going to happen, it would have happened, by now. So, all of this last-minute agonizing, which has no chance of saving the place, is just causing me to feel worse about its impending destruction. At some point, a guy has to face the fact that the girl who left him is not coming back. | ||
Flybydon Member Username: Flybydon Post Number: 228 Registered: 01-2005 |
<b>A Tearful Good-bye To The Old Ball Park. Going, Going Gone.</b> Date of images: 7-5-2008     Last Game: http://www.aerialpics.com/G/LastGameTiger.html (Message edited by flybydon on July 05, 2008) | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 6884 Registered: 11-2003 |
The lady in blue, welcome to The Forum. jjaba really loved to sit up high in Section 24. It was on the first base side. He would go there with his girlfriends for day games, taking time off from Cass Tech. each Spring. jjaba would hug the girls on the strikes and they'd kiss him on the balls. Lovely time at Briggs Stadium. Keep up your good fight. jjaba, Proudly Westside Tigers Fan. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 6885 Registered: 11-2003 |
Top Ten things found in the Briggs Stadium trashpile. 10. DSR ticket from Trumbull Streetcar. 9. Program from Nelson Mandella visit. 8. Piece of the rope from Fireman's Tug of War. 7. Mustard swabber from hot dog steamer. 6. Souvenir bat signed by Walt Dropo. 5. Cheap Tigers souvenir pen which still doesn't write. 4. 1945 World Series scorecard. 3. Photo of 1941 Chevy in front of ticket windows. 2. Old batting practice ball. 1. Sign, "Visitors Clubhouse, No Visitors." jjaba, Tigers Fan. | ||
Ravine Member Username: Ravine Post Number: 2433 Registered: 01-2006 |
Jjaba! Heebyjeebiescripesawmighty! Do you realize that, of your 6,884 posts, 207 of them contain that crustified joke? Ravine, also on the westside, and keeping count of things erroneously believed to be immeasurable. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 6886 Registered: 11-2003 |
Ravine, what's old hat to you with #2433, is new topical humor to The Lady in Blue. Your expletive is most original. jjaba has never seen yours once, let alone 207 times. You should be honored with 207 more good lines from jjaba. Credit Soupy Sales as source material for the Tigers joke. jjaba pays his estate royalites each time. jjaba, Proudly Westside. (Northlawn and Schoolcraft.) | ||
Ravine Member Username: Ravine Post Number: 2435 Registered: 01-2006 |
Jjaba, if that is your reasoning, it falls upon me to make a mental note of the fact that I must remember to contact Lowell and implore him to close the borders and bar any more new participants. However, here's hoping that The_l_in_b enjoyed your Jurassic Jest. Ravine (Hubbell & Plymouth) | ||
Reddog289 Member Username: Reddog289 Post Number: 436 Registered: 08-2007 |
No wonder i had to wait till i was 10 yrs old to go to my 1st game. My Grandpa always sat in that section of the park, didn,t want me exposed to jjaba,s exploits. | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 1283 Registered: 11-2005 |
Thanks for the pics, Don. So is that steamshovel ripping out the seats or what? Hard to tell. Any chance you can zoom in? | ||
Flybydon Member Username: Flybydon Post Number: 231 Registered: 01-2005 |
 Demo of the north / west lower seating, left field. (Message edited by flybydon on July 05, 2008) | ||
Melocoton Member Username: Melocoton Post Number: 29 Registered: 01-2008 |
Jasoncw--have you read the OTSC proposal? I second Urbanoutdoors' point, that Tiger Stadium and what is happening to it now seems to really focus our sense of powerlessness. We can see this when some say, "it's a losing battle"--of course, any battle is a losing battle until you start fighting. So, my question to ladyinblue, who started this thread, is what do we do about it? That is, those of us who are not Mike Illitch, John Engler, or Kwame Kilpatrick (none of whom are on this forum I hope). |
