  Dfd Member Username: Dfd Post Number: 462 Registered: 09-2004 |
If you work or worked in a Detroit car assembly plant, what's a typical day like? | ||
Richard_bak Member Username: Richard_bak Post Number: 211 Registered: 04-2008 |
Hell. That's why I left--twice (Dodge Truck, then the Rouge). | ||
Dfd Member Username: Dfd Post Number: 465 Registered: 09-2004 |
When were you at the Rouge? | ||
Richard_bak Member Username: Richard_bak Post Number: 213 Registered: 04-2008 |
It was 1979 (or was it '78??). Worked as a floater, then assembled seat cushions (burned the shit out of my hands all the time...had blisters the size of grapes on my fingertips). That convinced me to go back to school. I worked '72-73 at Dodge Truck as a spot welder, right out of high school. That was when vans were just taking off and OT was mandatory. Worked 6 days, 10-12 hrs. each nite (afternoon shift), and the speed-up hit 40+ trucks sometimes. That job kicked my ass. I'd come home sometimes at 4 in the morning and fall asleep while unlacing my boots. Sometimes I'd run into my dad, just getting up himself to go to the plant I had just left. He'd be all bleary-eyed and say the same joke: "Baks work 'round the clock." I finally joined the Marines to get out of there. I figured boot camp couldn't be any tougher. I was wrong---but not by much. My dad, uncle, and kid brother all retired from the plants. All of them basically hated it. I was glad when the new contract in 1974 allowed 30-and-out for the first time---it allowed my dad to retire immediately after spending some 40 yrs. killing himself. I think I made $4.25/hr. in 72-73, including shift premium. Of course, you could buy a pair of Levis for 5 bucks. What an old-timer I've become! I take it you worked at the Rouge...? | ||
Dfd Member Username: Dfd Post Number: 466 Registered: 09-2004 |
No, actually I'm from Ohio. I'm a fireman in KY and have made a few visits to DFD firehouses. I've become quite fascinated with the history of Detroit and study this website and read about it. I'm just curious about the workings of an auto plant (sounds, sights, hardships, all of it). Your story about the hot parts, and going home dead tired are very interesting. Any others? | ||
Richard_bak Member Username: Richard_bak Post Number: 216 Registered: 04-2008 |
Oh, you're from Ohio. We're not allowed to talk to you. What the hell, I'll make an exception since you're a smoke-eater. My grandfather was a retired Detroit firefighter. My memories are limited to the '70s, when we could still build crap and people would buy it. You should be able to get a lot of good stuff from more contemporary autoworkers on this thread. Contributors??? Where are you???? They're probably all in the parking lot on break, buying beer out of someone's trunk. | ||
Warrenite84 Member Username: Warrenite84 Post Number: 346 Registered: 01-2007 |
Worked at Chrysler Detroit Axle and Sterling Stamping Plants. Axle was a VERY hot plant in the summer. The thermometer near my job one week was 98 degrees F. for 5 days, on 2nd shift. Lots of times I came home with heat exhaustion. Several of the differential assembly lines I worked on were quite old. One dates back to 1968. That line was linear with pallets 3' by 3' that each diff. was built on. These pallets slid on 2 rails and moved together by a rail that would pull the pallets along. Most of the sensor switches that verified that a part was in place were not lasers or electric eyes, but spring loaded toggle switches that worked sporadically. The front and back of the line had small elevators to raise a pallet at the front of the line or lower a pallet at the back for the conveyor system to transfer to the front. 16 people ran this line. Since the line indexed one pallet every 14 seconds, you had to complete your work on that job in that time frame. The heaviest job was to pull a 27 lb. diff. casting out of a 4'x6'x4' steel box, press in 2 bearings on a hydraulic press, and put on the line. Up to 1,200 per day. The hardest job would have you putting the ring gear/spider gear assembly, 2 adjuster nuts, 2 bearings, and 2 bearing caps with 4 started bolts into the dif. case in the same 14 seconds. The plant was built in 1917 during World War I! Some of our hydraulic knee presses used for disassembly had cloth insulated wires and Western Electric motors! Still ran well. Lots of interesting stories out of there. Worked hard, got paid well. | ||
Sumas Member Username: Sumas Post Number: 184 Registered: 01-2008 |
The mayor of Warren is insisting that all city workers buy American. It makes sense because Warren (the second largest city in Michigan) houses several plants and many distributors. My husband worked in two different plants during summers while in college. He made good money which helped for tuition and books. He has many stories to tell. I will let him relay some of them in his own time. | ||
Richard_bak Member Username: Richard_bak Post Number: 218 Registered: 04-2008 |
Dfd--- For several generations working the line---if only during summer months while going to school---was a kind of rite of passage for many Detroiters. Seemed like everybody, from heavyweight champ Joe Louis to Motown founder Berry Gordy to mayor Coleman Young to such iconic labor leaders as Doug Fraser and the Reuther brothers, punched a clock at a Big 3 plant or supplier. Technology gradually eliminated many of the ass-kicking jobs, which was a double-edged sword because it often eliminated jobs, period. Still, life on the shop floor isn't always the peaches-and-cream job that many critics---most of whom have never stepped inside an auto plant---often paint it to be. As in any profession, there are lazy bums and cushy jobs and certain abuses. But for the most part, folks earn their money in the plants. It can be a monotonous, grinding, and sometimes dangerous life that wears you down as you get older. And that's with a union in place. Read up on the conditions autoworkers endured back before the plants were organized. I recently talked to some people in Flint re the famous 1937 sit-down strike at GM. They told me how they were afraid to leave the line to use the bathroom---they were tailed, harassed, and often fired---so guys would piss and shit in their pants. They talked about company goons beating up organizers and foremen forcing women into "favors" if they wanted to keep their jobs. Ford plants were notorious for harassment, thanks to their thug-in-chief, Harry Bennett. Maybe some posters can suggest books about the factory life in Detroit. I'm not talking socialist monographs, but histories, memoirs, literary works, etc. Offhand I'm thinking of Jim Daniels, a former assembly-line worker whose shop-floor poetry has been published by Wayne State Univ. Press, but there are others. Auto plants were/are a microcosm of American life, a social laboratory, so books by people like Maurice Sugar or Victor Reuther are great resources. There's a book called "Talking Union" (forget the author's name) that is a collection of first-person accounts from ordinary folks working the line. Or when you come to Detroit simply visit the Walter Reuther Archives at Wayne State and mosey through the stacks or leaf through the oral histories. To me, the autoworker---not the automobile---is the iconic symbol of Detroit. They're a disappearing breed, sad to say. As I get older, I feel a certain pride in having shlepped a lunch pail---if only for a couple years---in and out of those hot, smelly factories. As someone who has always enjoyed history, it makes me feel connected to what is, after all, the central story of Detroit. And, feeling that way, I've never bought anything but a Big 3 car. I'd say "American-made" car, but that would be stretching it on the part of the automakers. Who knows who installed what, where, anymore? But I do my part. | ||
Wally Member Username: Wally Post Number: 465 Registered: 12-2003 |
Interesting topic! I've never worked on the line, but I've worked in plants doing engineering work, within the past 10 years. I came across this article the other day, it gives some insight on Big 3 plant life in the '70s and '80s. Things are much different now than then, safety and quality have much higher priorities. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/ news?pid=20601109&sid=ab9U67cQ vQBk&refer=exclusive | ||
Cinderpath Member Username: Cinderpath Post Number: 665 Registered: 05-2006 |
I would highly recommend this book on the topic, best most accurate book about the real life on the line, and does not always paint a pretty picture: http://www.amazon.com/Rivethea d-Tales-Assembly-Ben-Hamper/dp /0446394009 | ||
Jdkeepsmiling Member Username: Jdkeepsmiling Post Number: 338 Registered: 01-2006 |
You know, I think it is a sign of the times, but I have NO one in my extended family who has EVER worked in an auto plant. I have a 30 person extended family Downriver, and no one works for either a supplier or automaker. I wonder if my generation... I am 28, is going to lose that connection to the industry just because there is no one inn our age bracket employed by the automakers anymore? Thoughts? | ||
Peachlaser Member Username: Peachlaser Post Number: 203 Registered: 08-2006 |
I would like to hear responses to this...in college, I was taking a course named The Politics of Violence in which we were studying different revolutions and their causes. We also studied the Detroit Riots and their causes. Our professor pointed directly at the automobile plants as the primary cause. Here is his theory...workers in auto plants only work on a small piece of the entire auto and do it over and over and over again as fast as possible. There is never a sense of completion like there is with a carpenter who builds a house and can get a sense of completion. Therefore, there is a huge amount of frustration that is continually being built up in tens of thousands of workers and in 1967 it exploded and the violence came out. Hearing some of the stories here about how grueling it can be working in the plants, lends a bit of credence to the theory. I write software and it sometimes takes months or years to complete a project and I sometimes feel frustrated because I can not see progress. I then have to build something so that I can see progress and completion. Then, I can go back to the grind. Anyone think that the pentup frustration caused by the conditions, grind and monotony of the plants caused the violence that exploded in 1967? | ||
Frankg Member Username: Frankg Post Number: 474 Registered: 08-2007 |
Task significance (being able to see the importance of the work you do) is one facet of motivation using the job characteristics theory. Some theorists have even claimed this is a reason for joining a union, although I doubt it. I think by framing a unionization decision as being because of routine, boring work, with little task significance, they do this to head off unionization attempts by more professional occupations. However, I doubt that task significance has any relation to the riots. There were race riots in Detroit long before there were assembly lines. And there were riots in other cites without assembly lines at roughly the same time. | ||
Richard_bak Member Username: Richard_bak Post Number: 219 Registered: 04-2008 |
Peach---I think your prof is off-base. BTW---is he a local prof? Sounds like a theory some ivory-tower type with no blue-collar bona fides or ties to Detroit would concoct. if anything, the thriving auto industry gave people with little education or skills (my own dad, a typical child of the Great Depression of the '30s, never completed fifth grade) the opportunity to have a middle-class lifestyle. Autoworkers bought homes, paid taxes, created community. It was the gradual disappearance of well-paying unskilled factory jobs beginning in the 1950s that helped account for the disaffected underclass that was one of the root causes of the '67 riot. Read Sidney Fine's book on the riot---his is the best study I've read. Those weren't frustrated autoworkers looting storefronts. But your prof is right about the assembly line removing a sense of accomplishment. The first autos were essentially assembled on sawhorses by small teams of craftsmen, who could take a certain pride and sense of ownership away from their work. Of course, that meant each factory only made a few cars each day, which in turn made the cars terribly expensive and out of reach of the average person. The advent of the assembly line brought costs way down and made cars available to the masses; it also created legions of robots who had to weigh the tedium of their job against the decent wages. Turnover rates in factories were incredibly high in the early years of the industry. Rent Charlie Chaplin's classic "Modern Times" for a pretty funny take on automation. Chaplin got his idea for the film from touring the Rouge plant with Henry and Edsel Ford. | ||
Frankg Member Username: Frankg Post Number: 475 Registered: 08-2007 |
A few good books, must reads for anyone doing a term paper on the subject: End of the line: autoworkers and the american dream - an oral history. Feldman, R., & Betzold, M., 1990. This book has dozens of interviews with workers at the Ford Michigan Truck Plant. The man and the assembly line. Walker, C., & Guest, R. 1952. A classic that describes in fair detail many aspects of working in a plant. Just another car factory? Lean manufacturing and its discontents. Rinehart, J., Huxley, C., & Robertson, D., 1997. A good description of the "new" lean manufacturing and how workers at CAMI react to it. Lean work: empowerment and exploitation in the global auto industry. Babson, S., 1995. a good book that gives an overarching view of the transformation of work in the auto industry globally. American Automobile Workers 1900-1933. Peterson, J. 1987. A classic. Automobile workers and the american dream. Chinoy, E. 1955. THE classic in this stream. Interviews a large selection of workers at the Lansing Oldsmobile plant. Farewell to the factory: autoworkers in the late twentieth century. Milkman, R., 1997. Tracks and interviews many workers who worked at an auto factory in Delaware. | ||
Frankg Member Username: Frankg Post Number: 476 Registered: 08-2007 |
I hired in the Oldsmobile main plant in Lansing on March 2, 1979. I started working in the motor plant, and my job was to take cast iron intake manifolds and place them on the machining conveyor. I did that for about 6 months and then worked in water pumps. I took the machined water pump housings and pressed the impeller shafts, seals, and nipples into them. I did that for a few months and then got sent to the pit at Big Car final assembly. I worked the first job up from the body drop, in the pit. I was too tall for the pit but I was low seniority and was only 18 so they stuck me there anyway. My job was to put screws in the exhaust system heat shields, rough toe-in, hook up the speedometer cable, and on the Holiday models, hook up a cruise control module. I had severe backaches and the tendons in my wrists hurt so bad I remember crying myself to sleep some nights. Medical department solution was to pump me up full of pain killers and muscle relaxers, so that I would hit my head on axles of cars overhead (I still have the scars on my head from that!). I ended up going on sick leave for a few months, came back to work on the same job, and was laid off shortly after that for 10 months. Recalled to the sheet metal department, we;d make fenders on a huge press line. Noisy, dirty, and dangerous. But at least it wasn't on the assembly line! Did that a while and got cut back to SMC finish, where we'd finish the fiberglass molded front end panels for big cars. Realized this work wasn't for me. Was preparing for an educational leave. All registered for classes at community college and the Thursday before my educational leave was supposed to start, my transfer to skilled trades came through. figured what the heck, skilled trades has got to be better than this! So I went to skilled trades instead of school. Worked machine repair at Plant 3 for three months, really like it, then laid off. Recalled to production in the bumper press room in Plant 3. Back in the days when bumpers were big and heavy. Worked a job at the end of the press line packing the bumpers in gons. Two of us assigned to the job. We were both young so we worked half hour on and half hour off. But we were young we could handle that. A couple guys in their 40's got sent from plant 5 couldn't handle the half hour on half hour off thing, they had to stay on the job the whole day. But even with the half hour on half hour off, it was very hard work. They had problems with heat exhaustion so they gave us all salt pills. Can you believe that? Did that for a year or two then recalled to skilled trades. Realized my trade was very dangerous when a 3/4" chain link went whizzing by my head only inches away. Put in for apprenticeship in Experimental Auto Assembly. Got my apprenticeship in July 1984. Really liked that work and the apprenticeship. Around 1989 I realized this wasn't a very humanistic environment, decided to go to school. Ended up going to school while working (and laid off) for 14 years without even a semester off, a few more years of on and off school. Finished school with my associates, bachelor's, 2 masters, and Phd. By the time I finished my Phd I only had 4 more years for my 30 and out. Decided to stick it out. Finally retired May 9 of this year and hoping to get a job in academia now. Despite some of the work being dirty, bad, dangerous, whatever, it wasn't really the work that made the job bad. It was the management. They always had to show us they were privileged, and that hourly folks were lower grade than dirt. They never card about the workers. They only cared about themselves. OK, in skilled trades there were a few supervisors who were better, but ultimately, they'd always side with other supervisors than stand up for their own workers. I remember one time I worked 14 hours overtime (that is 22-1/2 hours straight!) to finish this one hot job for an engineer. The engineer invited me and the other guys to lunch to thank us for our hard work. My supervisor found out and talked the engineer into canceling it. Told the engineer that the overtime pay was my reward, I didn't need intrinsic rewards, as I was only hourly. That sure gave me the warm and fuzzies. Another time I was going through a rough time, just broke up with my fiancee, was flat broke in the transition time. I asked my supervisor to sign a slip for me to pick up my paycheck a day early in personnel, a common practice. She asked me why. I told her I was flat broke and that I was hungry. She laughed at me and told me to "go fast then." I can go on and on with stories like these that show that the factory is not a very humanistic environment, to say the least. And we had a union, too. I hear things in the foreign plants in the US are not good, either. When you get injured they let you go. | ||
Townonenorth Member Username: Townonenorth Post Number: 73 Registered: 10-2007 |
Frank, I can relate. Of course, instead of the schooling, I took a different road, stayed the whole 32 years as production in stamping and assembly. Back when I started, there were no fans anywhere in the building. Oil was a constant hazard on the floor, with welding sparks and the gases that come from galvanized metals welding wafting in the air. Then they added the zinc to it. Yum. Try that at 90+ degrees for a few weeks every summer. You actually get used to it. People are shocked when, if I'm working outside, I don't sweat much. Conditioned response, like the bell and Pavlov's dog. And when the buzzer goes off, you had better be at your job, buddy. Cold rolled steel has one quality, it's slippery as hell. I can't count the number of times I was cut through the gloves, and even with a protective pad. That got better with the intro of the coated steels. Things improved, fans in the 80's, no more salt pills, popsicles and ice. Regarding your experiences with management, I worked for a manager for 13 years with some of the attributes of the managers you described, regarding the reward for doing a good job. My bosses's response was "They get paid enough" Lovely. I am a 4rd generation auto worker, there won't be a fourth. Great Grandfather was a varnish rubber at the Packard Plant in Detroit. Grandfather was a Superintendent at Hudson MC My father was a die maker, and myself. | ||
Richard_bak Member Username: Richard_bak Post Number: 221 Registered: 04-2008 |
Frankg....You have the sheepskins and the shop-floor experiences. Sounds like you should be able to pull together a teaching gig or even a book. I'd forgotten about those salt pills! | ||
Steelworker Member Username: Steelworker Post Number: 1126 Registered: 02-2004 |
Would you allow someone who works for at steel processing plant who supplies the big 3 with steel, to share? Working on a heavy machine that cuts steel rolls up to 3/8 thick. Injuries are common, Ive been cut open about once every year(5 years). Some coworkers have tendons cut, bones broken, and death. Couple days ago it was 98 in the plant. Working with steel slitter we have to climb on the machine and make things fit so we can get it through the machine. Often metal will spring free. I was working 6 days a week for last 5 year and couple summers ago I was working 12 hours a day 7 days a week.(currently working 4days a week) I feel like I will be like FRANKG I have been going to school since I started working there. I promoted myself through biding on a shipping position. We have requested that they fix and maybe install bigger exhaust vent in ceiling to make the plant feel more like outside temps. Average 10 to 15 degrees more in plant. | ||
Townonenorth Member Username: Townonenorth Post Number: 74 Registered: 10-2007 |
Frank, I can relate. Of course, instead of the schooling, I took a different road, stayed the whole 32 years as production in stamping and assembly. Back when I started, there were no fans anywhere in the building. Oil was a constant hazard on the floor, with welding sparks and the gases that come from galvanized metals welding wafting in the air. Then they added the zinc to it. Yum. Try that at 90+ degrees for a few weeks every summer. You actually get used to it. People are shocked when, if I'm working outside, I don't sweat much. Conditioned response, like the bell and Pavlov's dog. And when the buzzer goes off, you had better be at your job, buddy. Cold rolled steel has one quality, it's slippery as hell. I can't count the number of times I was cut through the gloves, and even with a protective pad. That got better with the intro of the coated steels. Things improved, fans in the 80's, no more salt pills, popsicles and ice. Gatorade. Regarding your experiences with management, I worked for a manager for 13 years with some of the attributes of the managers you described, regarding the reward for doing a good job. My bosses's response was "They get paid enough" Lovely. I am a 4rd generation auto worker, there won't be a fifth, unless a miracle happens here. Actually my son DID work for a time in the industry at a supplier, so maybe that counts? Great Grandfather was a varnish rubber at the Packard Plant in Detroit. Died young, I'd bet from toxic fumes from his job. Grandfather was a Superintendent at Hudson MC My father was a die maker, and of course, myself. After a die insert almost fell on top of my Dad while inside a die, and observing other one-handed guys cured me of wanting to be a die maker. | ||
Frankg Member Username: Frankg Post Number: 479 Registered: 08-2007 |
Yeah, when we'd go to a bar we'd hold up two fingers, and ask what that meant. "A die maker ordering a round of four beers!" | ||
Steelworker Member Username: Steelworker Post Number: 1127 Registered: 02-2004 |
LOL yeah i know all about cold rolled steel. We have oil all over the place. One fun thing about my work is the bay doors get stuck open often in the winter so sometimes its like working in a freezer. | ||
Townonenorth Member Username: Townonenorth Post Number: 75 Registered: 10-2007 |
LOL at the die maker at the bar. That's a hard drinking bunch. Actually, a lot of the one handed guys were due to the repeating action of the "gap" presses, used for fenders and wheel wells where I worked. Sticking hands in pinch points. It's not a pretty sight, or sound. I'm amazed that I escaped with all the parts I came in with. Good choices I guess. | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 2400 Registered: 12-2005 |
this is a good historical reference. | ||
Ltdave Member Username: Ltdave Post Number: 175 Registered: 09-2006 |
""Several of the differential assembly lines I worked on were quite old. One dates back to 1968."" I was at DAP for 15 months in 2001. 106F for three days in my department. the 8-1/4 and 9-1/4 cross (machines) were just starting to be replaced by new machinery. the machining machines pre-dated '68. they would spin up the cutters to the proper rpm and then dump coolant on them. the resultant rooster tails would reach the ceiling upon initial spraying... i started in the MOPAR div packaging parts and then warehousing them. i did that just shy of 3 years before taking my electrical apprenticeship. ended up at the tool and die plant building assembly lines and then moved into maintenance. was laid off for 6 months before going to the axle plant. upon my return to the T & D plant i pretty much worked my way into being the go to guy for 6 schuler presses and 5 ingersoll milling machines... | ||
Dfd Member Username: Dfd Post Number: 469 Registered: 09-2004 |
Wow, I new it was probably a rough job. These post really bring out the particular problems that you guys (and your families) dealt with. Good stuff. | ||
Lpg Member Username: Lpg Post Number: 39 Registered: 02-2008 |
Chrysler Trenton Engine 69-71. Old dangerous machines brought from Dodge Main. No ventilation, very few fans. I bribed a skilled trades welder to weld the fan to the table I kept parts on. It lasted 2 days before someone else bribed another skilled tradesman to cut it off and I never saw it again. I worked at the beginning of the line loading 78 pound 6 cylinder heads on a conveyor. The production quota was 500 parts per shift, the foreman got a bonus for anything over that. They were fresh from the Fostoria foundry. When you washed your hands, they would still look dirty from the cast iron and foundry dust. When you blew your nose it came out black. There were no showers, just the birdbaths. My mother would get upset when I got home and took a shower and there would be a rust ring around the shower drain. I remember watching the hi-lo disappear into the mist cloud about half way down the aisle. There would be a fire in the ventilation ducts every now and then. You would see the pipe glowing and the inhouse fire department would pull the pipe apart to get at the fire. It was ungodly hot and humid in the summer. They would only clean the place when bigshots would tour. The coolant was a water and oil mix that was only changed a couple of times a year. In the summer it would turn rancid. You got bumped into different departments on a regular basis. The best job I had was working machining Hemi heads, no rushing as there was to be no mistakes. The worst job was polishing crankshaft journals. You stood on a metal grating that was 4 inches high, the area was like a shallow moat. On the floor was the cutting oil and some kind of thinner. The crankshafts rotated towards you and the oil splashed on your shirt. The rest of the jobs I had there were somewhere in between. I nearly lost both my hands in a automated transfer line when I shut the line off for the electrician and had to move a cylinder head out of the way. When I bumped the limit switch the transfer bar came down on the back of my hands and started to pull me into the line. I was able to get my hands out of the rubber gloves just in time. Another time I was changing tooling on a broach that was powered by a 250 hp electric motor,a new, totally incompetent foreman attempted to start the machine, even though I had locked it out. I ended up running over the conveyor, the inspection table and landed on him with my hands on his collar. I ended up nearly choking him out until the jobsetter pulled me off him. He ended up getting kicked out of management and going back to the motor line where he belonged. Nothing happened to me. Working there was a good worldly education for a kid from Lincoln Park. I got to know and work with a cross section of the country. Everyone from rednecks from the deep south to the only Black Muslim I ever knew. People with college degrees (including my old 4th grade teacher, who God knows how he ended up there)to grade school dropouts and everything in between. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 6049 Registered: 12-2005 |
quote:HOF thread right here. | ||
Townonenorth Member Username: Townonenorth Post Number: 80 Registered: 10-2007 |
Starting my career, I used to run the first trim press coming off the draw, making wheel wells. So much dope from the draw remained on the panel, it would soak through the gloves. Hitting the buttons to run the press would give you an electric shock, I think 110 ac. Each time, about 300 an hour. Learned the value of rubber gloves quickly, I'll tell you. Good Times. Another story came from my cousin: Before the days of automation, he worked on small presses. He was feeding the parts into the press, along with another man. At the rear of the press, two other guys were unloading. All were using hand tools with suction cups on it. The bay doors were wide open, being summer, and on afternoon shift. The mosquitos were really bad. One landed on one of the unloaders' forehead. His partner, seeing the mosquito, slapped the mosquito with the suction cup on a stick, but mostly got all the guy's forehead, sticking the suction cup to it. The guy jumped over the, belt beating the guy until they took him away. |
