  Gralr Member Username: Gralr Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2008 |
Hi All, We are new to the board but have been reading it for a few months. For years I have wanted to see Detroit. We have been involved with antique cars and our lives have been spent in some way in the automotive industry. Before we made a trip up there we read and studied different aspects of your town and were somewhat familiar with the basic layout of Detroit. For the majority of my life I have heard many negative aspects, and was really unaware of what your city offered. We were active in historic preservation and always are on the lookout for a really nice project/home to work on so we for fun also looked at homes in town. I was very, very surprised at the amount of really quality homes and the prices of them. So the purpose of our trip was also enlarged to see some of your neighborhoods. Three of us traveled through the night to arrive at sunrise. The first part of our trip landed us in downtown. The excitement overwhelmed us as we exited the freeway and saw the Fox Theatre the marquee lights were aglow and the sun was rising to fully illuminate the building. WOW what a work of art. Then building after building had us in awe! Before I go on I am very well traveled and not some country bumpkin. I have been in almost every major city in this country and not just landed in the airport either. My perspective is very broad. I am not easily impressed. Ok on with what I saw. We toured past the opera house, Book Cadillac, gm building, Circus Park ?, the old Michigan theatre? and so many beautiful buildings that rival San Fransisco, Chicago, and many other cities I can think of. What an absolutely beautiful downtown. Great job on cleaning it up! We continued our tour and found one of your great treasures the Michigan Train Station. Wow what a treasure and what a waste, my Goodness what are the city fathers thinking? Needing rest we stayed at a really wonderful Holiday Inn Express. A few hours later with excitement running through me I was eager to hit the neighborhoods. Wow! What destruction, and your architecture is spectacular. From B-E to Indian village, The Fisher Building, Masonic Theatre, downtown buildings, the county building, etc. Driving through the neighborhoods it is amazing to see beautiful homes destroyed, neighborhoods in ruin, then the pockets, like B-E , university district,Sherwood. Your museums, Henry Ford, Detroit art instrument, public library, Edsel-Ford home, Chrysler Museum and all the other ones we did not get to or would like to go are so out of this world. Detroit has so many wonderful things we are not aware of. It seems the city has been bashed for years, and the lack of promotion of the attractions keeps the rest of the country in the dark. Oh Belle Island lest I forget! Scott Fountain and the location what a work of art ! The Albert Kahn designed structures are out of this world. We would love to buy a home there and tough it out, but taxes, crime, city inspectors - government, heating are all major deterrents. The future of the city also seems in great question. We are looking for a reason to relocate there, but also find many deterrents. In my opinion someone or a group needs to somehow take control and restore common sense and budgetary sanity. The city's trash problem would seem like a good way to start with neighbor hood free waste transfer stations. The city should stop tearing down all structures that are structurally sound. Buildings with good walls but no or leaky roofs should be stabilized. This could be accomplished be using funds that would demolish the structure to rather stabilize it and if necessary install a permanent guard. The theory is not to loose an irreplaceable infrastructure, and at some point if the city were to emerge economically there would be an attraction for residents with a decent housing /apartment stock. The same would apply to the industrial infrastructure. if the city spends hundred of thousands of dollars to destroy its infrastructure who will pay to rebuild it even if anyone wants to. Other parts of the country have low taxes, better climate, and are more business friendly. If Detroit offers buildings to industry it might be an enticement for economic development. I would but a home and contribute to the city if I knew there was a support base that would encourage my efforts. You all have an amazing city, a fantastic friendly population, and lots of potential but unless the current trends are altered it seems more and more of the city's future seems dim. This is just a few quick thoughts. Thanks! | ||
Sumas Member Username: Sumas Post Number: 498 Registered: 01-2008 |
Thank you, we like our city. The vast bulk of our citizens are indeed friendly and helpful. Come back in the summer to enjoy our many waterfront parks, fishing and boating are great here. Check out the riverwalk and Eastern Market. Mount Elliot and Elmwood Cemetaries are beautiful and a whose who of early Detroit. Sounds like you did your homework and visited many star attractions. It is sad to say our city has a long track record of neglecting our historical buildings. The most recent was the closing of our cherished Aquarium on Belle Isle. It was the oldest in the country. Lots of history buffs here, too bad none are on city council or Clownsil as they are fondly called on this board. There is a hugh grass roots support base for our new urban pioneers. Many areas qualify for tax abatement programs. We live in East English Village which is a part of the Next Detroit Program, I've seen a real improvement in services. Our homes and neighborhood are stable and beautiful but sound more modest than what you want. I believe Palmer Woods is one of the Next Detroit neighborhoods (if I am wrong forumers will jump to correct me) It offers really spectacular homes/mansions. Other areas qualify for historic tax credits. If you are seriously considering a personal investment in Detroit you are on the right forum for people support and info. If you are bringing a business that provides jobs, people here can also guide you to local and state incentives. A jump point might be contacting Preservation Wayne, an org. devoted to what else, preservation of our physical history. The list of places you should see keeps growing in my mind. Even coming as a tourist assists our economy. Next time you come, post your intentions, Forumers will overwhelm you with great suggestions. Last, sadly, Detroit is a struggling city. We have our gems and lots of problems. We welcome all who have the spirit and energy to help reverse our social and economic climate. | ||
Parkguy Member Username: Parkguy Post Number: 353 Registered: 04-2007 |
Gralr-- Thanks for such a clear-eyed view of our town. I'm glad you enjoyed your visit. | ||
Roadmaster49 Member Username: Roadmaster49 Post Number: 93 Registered: 01-2008 |
Gralr, For many years, Detroit, like a very few other cities such as Los Angeles, was a cash cow. Kin dof like Saudi Arabia and oil producing countires. They get uber-rich based on a natural resource. The auto industry took a lot of hard work for sure, but otherwise there was HUGE demand for the automobile, causing a sucking sound of cash from all parts of the world to one city - Detroit. [greater Detroit] Those fortunes have turned. It took "about 70 years" to build a great Detroit (1897 to 1967) Now it is in decline. Socioeconomic forces are working in Detroit that are fairly unique to an overall city. Entrenched corrupt leaders with a belief that they are above the law is nothing new, but in Detroit those councilpeople are African American. And Detroit is about 85% AA. So that's a built in mandate. You have some good specific ideas but these "leaders" aren't interested. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 1168 Registered: 11-2003 |
Gralr wrote, "...the Michigan Train Station. Wow what a treasure and what a waste, my Goodness what are the city fathers thinking?" The Michigan Central Depot is owned by a billionaire slumlord, Manuel Moroun, who also owns the Ambassador Bridge. But that doesn't excuse the city from not enforcing building codes and blight ordinances on the property. | ||
Gralr Member Username: Gralr Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2008 |
It is a shame the roof is even now. It is in the interest of the city to stop the ruination of its treasures all of them some group needs to kick some as% ........ but as spoiled children that might not work either. Detroit should be number one in the officials eyes not politics. Makes me sick and mad even as an outsider. I watched in the 80's as the town I lived in destroyed it's history.. I was in the mayors office with plans and ideas which were finally implemented but only after much of the city was destroyed. I lived in a neighborhood that was horrible, there was even a stabbing on the corner of my property. Through the cooperation of the police we were able to effect some changes. what a shame for the city | ||
Retroit Member Username: Retroit Post Number: 646 Registered: 04-2008 |
Unfortunately, I don't think that most (note: not "all") Detroiters have the same concern for the historic preservation of buildings built by and for people they have no association with. They are apparently more interested in baggy pants that they can barely walk in, shiny hubcaps that spin backward, and having children out of wedlock. Gralr, you'll have no trouble convincing the people of DetroitYES that we need to preserve the city, it's the other 900,000 people of DetroitWhoCares? that you will have trouble convincing. Edit: spelling. (Message edited by Retroit on January 03, 2009) | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 4111 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: I get a sense that many current Detroiters--especially the so-called political leadership--have no interest in historic preservation. It seems that most of these people, who are black, tend to see Detroit's historic past as one of racial oppression, and economic success for whites at the expense of their own race, and they would just as soon do away with that past. To what degree this idea has merit, I couldn't tell you, but I think it's a plausible, if not economically rational, explanation. | ||
Mwilbert Member Username: Mwilbert Post Number: 483 Registered: 11-2007 |
I think it is mostly indifference as opposed to active hostility, but that is combined with a notion that what is new is good, and perhaps a lack of appreciation that the older buildings are one of the main assets that the city has. The irony is that there isn't any shortage of places to build new stuff if anyone wanted to do it. | ||
Retroit Member Username: Retroit Post Number: 653 Registered: 04-2008 |
Danindc, you said was I was politically correctly trying to say. It is probably difficult for someone to get excited about Beaux Art, Greek Revival, and Italian Renaissance, when their background has been slave hut, rundown shack, and dilapidated white persons' hand-me-downs. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 4114 Registered: 10-2003 |
^^^I know that among some in the black community in DC, there are people who think, "Well, all the white people left, everything got fucked up, now they want to move back and make everything more expensive for us and force us to move from the neighborhoods we've lived in all our lives." There's just a bit of resentment. Not with all people, but I've definitely overheard comments in this vein before. Of course, when you have a city that's over 80% black, and just about every major elected official is black, it's seen as a "black" city that black people finally control, and dammit, they're gonna run it how they want. Even if they run it into the ground, at least it was black people that ran it into the ground. South Carolina is the same way--they'd rather everything go to hell in a handbasket than to have some Yankee come along and tell 'em how things should be done. | ||
English Member Username: English Post Number: 416 Registered: 10-2003 |
^Danindc, I'd like to ask you a question -- I think we read another blog in common about IQ and inheritance. (Sometimes I potter around those blogs with amusement, since according to their point of view, I'm a purple unicorn. In other words, people like me simply do not exist.) The reason I ask is because your comments here are quite puzzling otherwise. There are plenty of other "black" cities elsewhere in the U.S. and abroad where you do not see the same attitude towards preservation as one might find in Detroit. Is there something in the water here? Might Maslow's hierarchy of needs apply to postmodern Detroiters? Or does Maslow's hierarchy of needs only apply to people who aren't black? I could say more, but I'll stop here and let you respond. (Message edited by English on January 03, 2009) | ||
Sean_of_detroit Member Username: Sean_of_detroit Post Number: 2191 Registered: 03-2008 |
Gralr, thank you for your insight. | ||
Detourdetroit Member Username: Detourdetroit Post Number: 335 Registered: 10-2003 |
good points...i won't speak for danin, but i have a few thoughts. i think there's plenty o blame to go around...black, white and purple. i think a strain in detroit is that the throwaway culture was more or less invented in detroit, so we are easily led to believe that the city is old ergo bad. there is also a strain of truth to what dan says about whitey leaving behind so why should we care attitude. however there are also a) black leaders in the detroit preservation movement who get it and are equally frustrated and there are b) a whole lot of poor black folk (and white too) who aren't interested in a different way because they're too busy trying to put food on the table. over 50 years ago, the suburbs were promoted as the ultimate antidote to the city (read into that whatever you want) in a way that while not unlike other places was more pronounced in detroit because it was inherent to the car culture. add to the detroit thang a toxic mix 'o fha, cheap and abundant land, complicit land use policy, divisive politics, growing racial antagonism, mis and undereducation and the lack of economic and social diversity and you've got the makings of a some serious ruination. what's so very ironic (and so exciting too) about detroit is that since there has been so little real visionary urban leadership for so long, the potential for detroit to wake up and be an ultra progressive place where not only preservation is strong, but other cool stuff happens is possible. even though cay said famously (correctly, although irresponsibly) "detroit's got buildings to burn," in response to a devil's night query, the truth is that detroit still has the historic buildings blocks to transform itself into a sustainable place. but we must shift thinking away from the new model year mentality to commodifying and valuing the city for its own sake. if we can make that leap we'll be able to do amazing things... that's just my 2c. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 4115 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Frankly, the only other large "black" cities in the U.S. that I can think of, that have as high of a percentage of black population as Detroit, are Gary and Newark. I'm not certain that those two cities are really much different, but I don't know enough about them to comment. I hope no one is taking my comments as racist, because they are certainly not intended as such. There are certain sociological aspects of this topic that I find interesting. | ||
Retroit Member Username: Retroit Post Number: 655 Registered: 04-2008 |
Yes, it is true that architectural inappreciation is not simply a racial matter. Otherwise how would we explain the architectural monstrosities that have been erected in the past several decades under the guise of Modernism. I think ignorance crosses racial boundaries. It's just that Detroit doesn't have the critical mass of preservationist (black and white) to effectively save our treasures. But then again, does any city? Look at how other cities have changed. When I was in New York recently, it was hard to get a picture of some of the beautiful old buildings because they were surrounded by unsightly "boxes". What is needed is education. We should have architecture classes in our schools with field trips to some of the many gems in our city. Classes in home building and renovation would also be beneficial. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 2223 Registered: 04-2006 |
Retroit has the right idea, but I would like to take it a step further. Many of these postulations are built on faulty logic. Detroit's problem is not one of a certain ethnic group, but one of a poor economic base. Pointing to Cities such as Gary and Newark and making the assumption that they are that way because they have large black populations does not factor into the fact that they have lost their economic base. Most people refuse to aknowledge that you can't fix up properties if their is no economic incentives to do so. Its not that blacks don't care, its much more complicated than that. Most people living in Detroit regardless of color do not have the economic means to fix up a terribly dilapidated building. Even if they did, they are smart enough to realize that they can't sink hundereds of thousands into a building and never recoup their investment. What Detroit needs to turn around is not more 'white people'. It needs more capital flowing to projects. To those living in the suburbs: without adressing the issues of deindustrialization your jobs are leaving at a rapid rate as well. We can't continue to point fingers and put up stupid barriers based upon classification. This technique is counterproductive, one only needs to look at what is happening in Gaza right now. | ||
Mwilbert Member Username: Mwilbert Post Number: 485 Registered: 11-2007 |
The economics of redevelopment are very different in an area with declining population and one with increasing population. In the former, new construction means reduced demand for old construction. In the latter, not necessarily. Certainly the major thing Detroit needs to make preservation more viable is rising property values. The main way that could happen would be for the city to stop losing (net) people. It wouldn't hurt if a lot if the existing substandard buildings would vanish. I also think it would be good if they would stop (or nearly so) building stuff in a city with a staggering number of vacant or underutilized structures. If you want to stabilize/increase the population, there are a lot more not-black people available to move in than black ones, but in any case I don't see why whatever attracted whites, Asians, and Hispanics wouldn't be attractive to blacks as well. | ||
Gralr Member Username: Gralr Post Number: 8 Registered: 12-2008 |
I also think there are several factors at work here. The most major issue in my humble opinion is a moral one, let me quickly explain with a few points. If the minds of people put others first you would not have greed, hate, jealousy, anger etc. When these things are found especially in leaders the motives and actions are wrong and the outcome what is seen in Detroit. Corruption, racial tensions, hatred for things that others have done, vengeance, the city certainly is reflective of the mental state of the leaders and some of the population. I know I am laying myself open on this one, read on. The most important thing for governmental leadership is in this case DETROIT FIRST. The leadership must at all costs have in their heads what is best for the city, not what is best for themselves personally, or how can I have vengeance, or whatever else goes though their mind. The same for the workers, the leadership must instill a Detroit first mentality, and restore the civic idea that all elected officials ans workers are working for the citizens not against them. From the people I have spoken with it is this us vs them attitude. Good civic leaders will have one thing in mind what is best for the city considering all the citizens first. The leaders should reach out to all regardless of skin color and attempt to draw people together it is possible to some degree. Love of People and Love of city, civic pride will go a long way as a first step towards recovery but it will take an awakening, then it will take picking up the trash one person at a time, one school at a time, one neighborhood at a time, then one clean city may arise. Also a quick point, Civic pride was very clearly evident in Detroit 70 plus years ago as evidenced by the quality of architecture that remains. It seems there was almost a competition of design on a city wide scale. I would think that unlike any other city Detroit was the center if design in many ways. My mind wonders back to the cars and trains, of the thirties, and I cant help but believe the minds there were very set on design. This mind set seemed to flow in every direction. You had an enormous amount of craftsman, including masons, carpenters, glass workers, roofers, etc who could build classic structures. As time passed and the children did not learn these trades the knowledge has been slowly slipping away. Now the proper maintenance of these buildings is becoming a lost art. The weather hastens the decay, as our society helps mother nature. How many roofers can repair slate roofs, the demand is strong for these workers so the price becomes prohibitive. Ignorance is another factor in the continued decline and demolition of buildings that are perfectly useful but to the untrained eye merely an eyesore. We may never be able to overcome the obstacles but we must continue to try. Wars are won in the mind, maybe one mind at a time starts with us. | ||
Retroit Member Username: Retroit Post Number: 658 Registered: 04-2008 |
True, Gralr, but I think most (not "all") Detroiters have given up on Detroit long ago. They are just biding their time till the day comes that they can move out to the suburbs. The buildings that you and I cherish mean nothing to them. A clean, safe city with competent government is a foreign concept to them. A drive through most suburbs is a completely different experience than a drive through most of the City of Detroit. The difference between the two is not entirely race and it's not entirely economics. It's more of the culture of acceptance/resignation (city) versus a culture of "I'm not going to take this crap!" (suburbs) | ||
Gralr Member Username: Gralr Post Number: 9 Registered: 12-2008 |
I agree, just look at the invisible fences between Grosse Point, and Detroit. Clearly the leadership, and citizenry in the surrounding areas is reflected in the environment created. Really if the city government and leadership was in touch Detroit could be turned around in a reasonable time. It however, would take motivating a populace through effective leadership. Maybe my glasses are too rose colored. | ||
Retroit Member Username: Retroit Post Number: 661 Registered: 04-2008 |
"We hope for better things." | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 4120 Registered: 10-2003 |
^At a certain point, you have to stop hoping, and DO something. | ||
Gralr Member Username: Gralr Post Number: 10 Registered: 12-2008 |
I agree enough is enough a group needs to start, form a Constitution for the betterment of Detroit and stick to it, EGO'S not allowed! | ||
Retroit Member Username: Retroit Post Number: 666 Registered: 04-2008 |
City of Detroit's motto: "Speramus Meliora; Resurget Cineribus" (Latin for, "We Hope For Better Things; It Shall Rise From the Ashes") <- Watch out! | ||
Sumas Member Username: Sumas Post Number: 525 Registered: 01-2008 |
You could try joining The Detroit Grosse Pointe Collaborative. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 4403 Registered: 02-2005 |
Welcome, and good post Gralr. Preservation is more than just a fight for aesthetes and historians, it's about retaining a city's good bones-- that which once made it great, and can only make it better in the future. Actually making sure something is preserved is extremely complicated, and is an economic and legal issue most often-- colored by all the other issues of civic pride, aesthetics, cultivation of historical appreciation, etc. It's an uphill battle worth fighting. | ||
Gralr Member Username: Gralr Post Number: 11 Registered: 12-2008 |
I totally agree. I see what the city still has I hope that the sleeping giant can be woken not to destroy but to have some sense and heal the good bones. The message should be stabilize, moth ball what is left so the future generations have something to work with. Now is the appointed time, today is the day! | ||
Big_baby_jebus Member Username: Big_baby_jebus Post Number: 31 Registered: 09-2008 |
Gralr, If you're into historic buildings and what not I suggest checking out this site: http://onlyndetroit.com/html/d ecay/decaysubmenu.htm They have a ton of pics and stories about exploring the most historic of all the Detroit buildings. BTW...welcome, and come back soon. :-) | ||
Gralr Member Username: Gralr Post Number: 20 Registered: 12-2008 |
Thanks fantastic blog! I have seen it before and have loved surfing it. I would love to do lots of exploring, as I also love to take pictures. Your pics are fantastic, thanks for taking the time to document such urban wonders. | ||
Retroit Member Username: Retroit Post Number: 722 Registered: 04-2008 |
It's amazing what neglect and vandalism will do to a building. | ||
Erikd Member Username: Erikd Post Number: 621 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: quote: quote: quote: This thread is filled with incorrect information, half-truths, and accusations, mostly based on ignorance and racism. These assertions, blaming black Detroiters, (and excusing white suburbanites) for not supporting historic preservation, is quite simply a load of horseshit... quote: Kwame Kilpatrick closed the Belle Isle Aquarium in 2005 due to budget cuts. City Council members opposed the closure, and later that year, 88% of Detroit voters approved a nonbinding ballot measure to reopen the aquarium. The Belle Isle Aquarium was a victim of a declining economy, and declining tax revenues, which forced unpleasant spending cuts by the city and the state. While the resolutions from city council and the overwhelming voter support of the ballot measure were not enough to overcome the fiscal realities, they certainly stand as evidence that Detroiters do value and support our historical buildings and institutions. Any poll or vote of suburban Detroiters will show that the vast majority of white suburbanites couldn't care less about the Belle Isle Aquarium. quote: Perhaps more than any other building, the Michigan Central Station is an icon of Detroit. For many people, especially white suburbanites, it stands as proof that Detroit used to be great, until the black people took over and ruined it. In reality, the owner of the decrepit MCS is a white suburbanite billionaire, ranked as the 321st richest person in America. --------------- quote: Other than your ignorant racist insults, do you have any valid evidence that black Detroiters are less concerned with historic preservation than white suburbanites? The city of Detroit has been very supportive of renovating historic buildings... The Kales, the Book Cadillac, the Fort-Shelby, the Lofts on Woodward, Merchants Row, the Whittier, etc. The taxpayer-funded $700,000 demolition of the Madison-Lenox, and the recently approved taxpayer-funded $2.5 million demolition of six downtown buildings, stands in stark contrast to the trend of renovating historic buildings in Detroit. Who is fighting for the taxpayer-funded demolition of all these downtown buildings? It isn't the evil baggy-pants wearing black people of Detroit. It is a billionaire white suburbanite, ranked as the 301st richest person in America. | ||
Retroit Member Username: Retroit Post Number: 751 Registered: 04-2008 |
It certainly is not true that all black people are against preservation and all white people are (if that is what you thought I was saying). However, it is also not true that all the evil billionaire white suburbanites are not preserving Detroit and all the wealthy blacks are. Can we split the difference and say that most people, black and white, are not interested in historic preservation? | ||
Roadmaster49 Member Username: Roadmaster49 Post Number: 95 Registered: 01-2008 |
Preservation is not a black white hispanic Asian issue. It's economics. I restore old cars for a hobby and it is 100% similar. Lot sof folks restore old cars and think that they should get outof it what they put into it. It costs $40,000 to restore, by god I better get $40,000 for it. Or they start on it (the car) and realize they are in over their heads and stop. fast forward to a neglected old house with character. You buy it for pennies but the city inspector comes by and immediately says it needs a new roof, new plumbing, safety basics. Your eyes bug out. You decide to "rent" it, not complete the purchase, foreclose and move to the suburbs where you get a move in condition home. Preservation isn't a black / white issue. | ||
Eddies Member Username: Eddies Post Number: 1 Registered: 01-2009 |
Hello, from a new yawk newyawka,who is spending some time on the web lately(firmly decided on the more uplifting content now thank G-d)I saw a remark re this site mentioning a 'thread',high praise for something concerning new gardens or efforts that way,that was on World changing.So I joined,thank to admin for the nod yes.What I see is different,reminds me of friend's talk of belize radio.And radio as much as cars has given me my "DEEtroit" as my father called it.Radio,because of the Detroit sound,I saw a Documentary on Motown that gave me shivers as it began. | ||
Gralr Member Username: Gralr Post Number: 27 Registered: 12-2008 |
To me race is not an issue. I don't care one iota about skin color. I care about the attitude of the person inside the body. I car about what is done. theft, racism, murder, social injustice etc. We should all be pressing for a new world of social perfection. Will it happen? Maybe one person at a time it is but it is for each of us to strive for. The leadership of Detroit (I have no idea what race they are,and frankly don't care) is certainly reflected in the condition of the city. That is why they are called leadership. Yes they are elected by the people. Is the leadership a direct reflection of the majority of the people? Is the statement a black friend of mine once said " the black man wants to totally erase white history that is why there is little regard for the white mans history"? Is this an attitude any one has seen? Is it true in any way? Regarding the Michigan Station, it is crime, and a sin that the owner has no conscience about what he has done. Quite frankly is is a crime against Detroit, it shows a lack of moral backbone of the owner and I would tell it to his face. He spits at Detroit and worships his money. And shame on those who want to tear down irreplaceable buildings. I too roadmaster restore old cars and see the value of Detroit. In some ways it is the equivalent if finding a junkyard filled with Packards and Duesenburgs. Some buildings are easily restorable others are not some are parts for the others. | ||
Retroit Member Username: Retroit Post Number: 754 Registered: 04-2008 |
Take a deep breath Eddies!  |
