  Brian (Brian) Posted From: 67.37.83.250 |
Where is the hug to preserve Brush Park? A place where people actually currently live. Instead of an empty bldg. This issue has not gone away.
http://www.detnews.com/2004/editorial/0401/30/a11-49807.htm | ||
SFDet (Sfdet) Posted From: 205.184.146.106 |
That is perhaps the worst written article i have ever read. what the hell does it say? there is no way to make any reasonable conclusion. i will end by saying that any histortic home in brush park that ends up demolished is a shame in my opinion. but any reporter, when somehow defending the perservation of historic structures, should give specifics. this article is not balanced and gives almost no specifics. it generalizes that somehow the city of detroit and hud have been sinister because they didn't go through a competive bidding process for a redevopment deal in brush park. is that true? did the city/hud somehow avoid/ignore a required and clearly required process? did it kick poor people out of historic homes without reasonable compensation so that the historic structures could be demolished? maybe, but i doubt that's the entire story. the article gives us no way of reaching a reasonable conclusion. my guess is that there was some gray area in the law and the city interpreted it in its best interest. but we have no way of knowing because the article is very poorly written. | ||
Brian (Brian) Posted From: 67.37.83.250 |
SFDet, you impose onto the article your own opinions, feelings and beliefs. This is what you speak of not the subject the writer expressed. You admit you don't know the details on Brush Park. The writer via the news papers, is relaying to you the details. You are choosing not to believe the writer. But you admit that you choosing to do so is not based on any facts but on your own wants or needs. | ||
HighHorse (Enigma) Posted From: 206.148.224.37 |
Man, the stuff that they do knock down in Brush Park has been in really bad shape. Are you complaining about the one building that was just a pile of rubble with one wall, on the west side of Brush ? This is like bitching about road kills being scraped up with shovels. Its nasty, but you gotta do it. Looks to me like they are bending over backwards to make it look like they are saving some of those structures, when they are really rebuilding a new structure behind a few facade bricks. What about Brush Park ? Look like it gets all the redevelopment attention. There are other neighborhoods that need a hug worse - or maybe an IV instead. Like, anybody ever driven down a little road called Grand River ? That whole damn road needs a hug. | ||
Drew (Drew) Posted From: 68.40.39.222 |
Thank you for the one wall, pile of rubble reference. That truly is Brush Park in a nutshell. | ||
The Aram (The_aram) Posted From: 68.43.142.29 |
Exactly. It is possible to rehabilitate a building like the Madison-Lenox, where the entire structure is actually there. Whereas, Brush Park, you've got some walls, maybe a floor if you're lucky, and little else... Say all you want about that Crosswinds project, but at least that building hadn't fallen in on itself a la Ransom Gillis. | ||
Brian (Brian) Posted From: 67.37.84.248 |
So you would have all believe that the only bldg to restore in Brush Park is a structure with one wall and nothing else. Either you are not being truthful on pupose or you don't know much about Brush Park except that you pass it on your way to Comerica Park | ||
The Aram (The_aram) Posted From: 68.43.142.29 |
Good God, Brian... Not everyone has an agenda... I would contend that many of the abandoned structures in Brush Park are a much greater risk to public safety than the Madison-Lenox. The M-L isn't going to fall in on you if you try to venture inside. The Gillis walls will, as will many of the other burned-out hulks hanging around in there. Would you approve of your tax dollars demolishing either structure? Because that's what's being used! | ||
HighHorse (Enigma) Posted From: 206.148.224.8 |
I have never been to Comerica Park, and dont even know how to play football. Or baseball - whatever your point was. If its in Brush Park right now, and its not already currently being rehabbed, than its probably just a pile of bricks with some burned wood. What is so amazing about that ? Brush Park has seen a whirlwind of restoration. Why champion a place thats already recieved the love ? Is it just me? - am I totally missing the brian guys point ? | ||
* (Fisher21) Posted From: 67.72.221.245 |
Not just you. The remaining brick structures in Brush Park go back to the days when the bricks were structural. Those walls are thick and solid but the roofs and interior elements have burned and/or rotted away long ago. On some level these buildings are still "restoreable" but at what cost? You will not replicate the original craftmanship of the interiors at a cost that anybody will be able to pay. Look at the newly restored townhouses behind Crosswinds. That was a total gut job utilizing only the original facade. They even put all new rear extensions on the building. I wouldn't even call it a restoration. Still, I'd rather see that any day instead of new construction. The Gillis home and others on the block have recently been fenced off. Does anybody know why? Are they slated for rehab or is it just to keep people from falling into the basements? | ||
Drew (Drew) Posted From: 68.40.39.222 |
Is it so Detroit that places like Brush Park head towards a new life amidst spots of property that look like Saddam hideouts? State of the art condos next door to a place where you fall through to the basement. Poochy's catch phrase is appropriate here: Detroit....to the extreme! | ||
Brian (Brian) Posted From: 67.37.83.13 |
So many double standards being posted, though not exposed. They were known before. In Brush Park there are the oldest homes in the city, older than Corktown contradictory to what some would have you believe, which many had and still want to restore. They want to use their OWN money to restore them and live in them. But you above would rather force an owner to use PUBLIC money to restore the ML against his will. The city, as it has been told, is kicking people out of their homes that they legally own to tear down some of the oldest structures in the city to make way for new structures. Those new townhomes do not compliment the old. This has been an argument on this site that the new is not blending in with the older bldgs. But I guess its pick and choose what is desired. Those folks in corktown are desperate to have the MCS rehabed so they can use it to add to their communities presence and improve their neigborhoods with the unique structure. But they are not assisting nor supporting other groups in other DETROIT commuities who are trying to do the same. Like Brush Park. Black folks there have been trying to do the same with their community for years. Archer made two deals to kick them out of their homes and hand it over to a special contractor. The CBD, corktown, Southwest Detroit, or other communities in this city do not exist in a vacuum. But some here want you to support some projects while ignoring others. ITs not too funny that the projects ignored are those where many Black folks are involved! | ||
The Aram (The_aram) Posted From: 68.43.142.29 |
So we turn this into a racial thing... Hmm. Typical. | ||
Lmichigan (Lmichigan) Posted From: 67.167.135.10 |
Brian = Rasputin-lite = Rasputin Junior? This is just another case where Brian comes in with his own agenda and accuses everyone else of having an agenda that doesn't agree with him. Really, what's the point in aruging anymore? Let's just treat him like our paranoid uncle, you know, the one that we all have, and be done with it. | ||
Goat (Goat) Posted From: 64.228.131.202 |
Just for clarification. Ilitch is using tax money to level the M-L as well. Guranteed he will not have to pay back all of the "loan". | ||
The Aram (The_aram) Posted From: 68.43.142.29 |
750,000 and now he wants more... How's that for tax dollars? | ||
Buddy (Buddy) Posted From: 67.72.221.132 |
Somebody should organize a protest. | ||
Supersport (Supersport) Posted From: 68.41.23.70 |
Brian is for preserving historical buildings now? What the hell, I'm so confused. | ||
Brian (Brian) Posted From: 67.37.83.13 |
Still lots of doublespeak. If the common belief on this site (or at least one strongly stated beleif), is that the older bldgs need to be preserved because they would be good for Detroit, then why are none here advocating the same for Brush Park? Goat, you should talk to your buddy skulker. I have had that discussion with him before. But you never made that type of statemet until now. | ||
The Aram (The_aram) Posted From: 68.43.142.29 |
Brian, are you even familiar with half of the "buildings" in Brush Park? Maybe if people were interested in restoring a burned-out brick facade with all the architectual elements missing, then maybe it would be worth it. Last time I checked, there had to be a building there to restore... | ||
Andrew In Windsor (Aiw) Posted From: 64.228.129.88 |
Brian, Show me someone who is willing to restore these: Arts & Crafts Building: 47 Watson  The Livingston House  111 Watson  ...oops too late! Brian's tax dollars at work!  | ||
Brian (Brian) Posted From: 67.37.83.13 |
You are making such a case to demolish part of Detroit's history. Why don't you post all of the bldgs in Brush Park so people can see all of them? If somebody wants to restore a bldg, with their own money, who cares what state it is in. Its their right to do so. The government should not tell you what to do with your own property. The government should not be pushing gentrification. As is the case in Brush Park. But still, I have read many say how they would impale themselves on the bulldozer when it comes to tear down the BC, yet here are advocating the demolishing of a neighborhood. Perhaps after Brush Park is gone they will call it Corktown III. With the strong interest on this thread for Brush Park to be demolished you would think that some on here had a stake in the new townhomes being contructed. Where is the common talk of the support for infill housing as has been posted on this site before? Is infill housing only good in Cortown? Where, according to some who post here, own homes in Corktown? When the guy in corktown wrote in to the paper saying he feared gentrification, corktown orgs visited him in the night to get him to retract his statements. Are we viewing the covert class/community warfare? | ||
Mplsryan (Mplsryan) Posted From: 12.73.128.45 |
I like the arts & crafts one, easily restorable. | ||
The Aram (The_aram) Posted From: 68.43.142.29 |
You seen Mauser's pictures from inside the arts and crafts building? Do a search, it was around last fall that he posted them. Great pics, he really put himself in some serious danger to get them. He describes it all in the thread. It's in worse condition than that pic describes. Right where I'm writing this I had a huge rant at Brian to combat that incredibly trivial and bizarre accusation-fest above. But I deleted it. He'll put a bizarre spin on anything I say and accuse me and others of a variety of perposterous schemes, so why give him material?. | ||
The Aram (The_aram) Posted From: 68.43.142.29 |
Found it! Enjoy, Mplsryan: https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/messages/11556/14401.html | ||
31Ford (31ford) Posted From: 152.163.253.67 |
The Livingston house looks like it could be restored... but doubtful you'd recreate the correct era interior without a crapload of research materials. I'd like to tackle it myself. Perhaps build a garage to house my car collection out of one of the other ruins. | ||
Brian (Brian) Posted From: 67.37.84.163 |
When Archer was Mayor, there were several people with money who were interested, and some had begun, in restoring bldgs in Brush Park. They got no support. Archer told them that the area was to be vacated, bulldozed and new homes would be contructed. Those homes begun with a very high price and came down after they could not be sold. After the original developer pulled out, sorta like the BC, they found a replacement. Not ten years ago there were many bldgs that could have been easily rehabbed in Brush Park. But political agendas wanted to focus on other areas of the city, not necessarily the CBD, and Brush Park had a good supply of Black folks, also unlike those other political areas. I still want to know what is the difference in wanting to rehab bldgs in Brush Park versus other bldgs in Detroit? How can anyone draw a conclusion between one or the other? What is the basis of support for rehab? Up until now it was said that the purpose for support was the history of Detroit. But it is clear from the responses on this thread that history is not the issue. Rather I suspect politics is the issue. | ||
Brian (Brian) Posted From: 67.37.84.163 |
Buildings and Safety has said that the Madison-Lenox bldg must come down because it is unsafe. Yet many who post to this site are trying to force the city and its owner to keep it up. Is there a group behind these people who are using this to try and force Illitch to sell the bldg? | ||
Patrick (Patrick) Posted From: 68.73.192.27 |
Money is the main issue as far as I'm concerned. Everything comes after that, including the politics and hidden agenda. | ||
The Aram (The_aram) Posted From: 68.43.142.29 |
Brian, there have been asbestos studies done on the Madison-Lenox that show that there is no asbestos in the plaster inside the building. All three structures were built before asbestos was used as a fire retardant. Asbestos is being cited as the reason the building is so dangerous, however, there isn't any in the building... Hmm.... You do the math. As for your bolded question, I think you're missing the point that many of us preservationists (in fact all preservationists around here) would LOVE for all the Brush Park buildings to be saved. We all would. They were all incredible structures in their heyday, and truly would be wonderful to save. Except you've got to realize, as 31Ford observed, there isn't much left to restore over there whereas buildings like the B-C and the Madison-Lenox have their structural integrity intact and most all of their architectual elements remaining. You've got to pick the battles to utilize your resources with in terms of fighting for historical buildings. When given the choice of pushing for the preservation of a building that has all four walls, a roof, and all interior floors intact or a building with four walls (all crumbling/falling in on themselves), no roof, and no interior floors intact, I think anybody is going to go for the former. The historical accuracy of a restoration project like the Book-Cadillac would be much more substantial than trying to reconstruct a burned-out hulk in Brush Park where odds are there are no original copies of floorplans, blueprints, or even substantial photographs of what it did look like in the past to base your rehabilitation on. Your point is good, but it's important to realize that there isn't much future left for many of the abandoned historical homes of Brush Park as compared to the intact buildings in the central business district. | ||
Brian (Brian) Posted From: 67.37.84.163 |
The Aram, no one asked you for money or any other type of resources. I said support. This could be just a letter stating that your org supports the Brush Park community in its fight to save their own community. But as you indicate when you "pick your battles" you go along with the mayor in the attempts at gentrification in one neighborhood in order to get him to support you in rehabing the BC. That's not picking battles, thats washing each others back. Political favors. AS for what there is to preserve, again, WHO makes that determination? The BC was stripped of its valuable interior. The developer just said it will cost way more money to fix it up and they have never promised to restore the BC. The outer architectural stone structures need fixing to save them as some have fallen off and broken in the past. So its never been about what can be saved but who will pay to preserve/restore it. So again I repeat that individuals had promised to restore Brush Park with their own money. They did not ask the CC for handouts. You then proclaim that "there isn't much future left" in Brush Park. Who again made you the person to reach that conclusion? You are repeating things you may have heard others say in the past. You don't know what went into that statement others have made. All you know is a press release. Why would you take a side in a debate without knowing the details? As far as asbestos, who cares. If a person enters the ML and gets hurt, it is a dangerous bldg. Nuff Said. | ||
Mplsryan (Mplsryan) Posted From: 12.73.132.239 |
Thanks Aram That was quite the building in its day, great English Arts & Crafts. Perhaps a shell preservation could work but it looks like its fate is sealed. | ||
Supersport (Supersport) Posted From: 64.118.137.226 |
"When the guy in corktown wrote in to the paper saying he feared gentrification, corktown orgs visited him in the night to get him to retract his statements." Unfucking believable! You are serious aren't you? That is simply hilarious. | ||
Andrew In Windsor (Aiw) Posted From: 209.216.150.127 |
Brian, As a preservationist, you must pick your battles. In Brush Park, there are many Victorian Ruins. However many homes in BP are still intact, and fact of the matter is that many of those buildings are beyond repair. Sadly, many of them will go, and you know what? Your tax dollars will be used too. The Madison Lennox is different, because it is an integral part architecturally of the surrounding neighbourhood. If it was demolished it would leave a gaping hole in the streescape and density of the Harmonie Park Historic District. It is restorable, it is just being kept in a state of disrepair by a slumlord who is trying to convince eveyone that it is unsafe and needs to be demolished with your money. I could take you on a drive east of Eastern Market and in five minutes show you 100 buldings that are far more dangerous and in need of being demolished. Once again Brian, your argument holds no water... | ||
Bucho (Bucho) Posted From: 136.1.1.33 |
The fact of the matter is that there are several buildings in brush park that are being rehabbed. Take a drive on Winder or Brush and you will see a couple of wonderful Brush Park structures with tons of scaffolding. The problem with Brush Park is that there are a lot of buildings that are beyond repair, but the ones that do have a chance are being rehabbed. For example, the developers that rehabbed my building (Carola), were awarded a contract by the city to start on new row houses on John R and surrounding streets. In the contract however, there were stipulations stating that they had to restore several structures in that area. Take a drive on Edmund and you will see a couple. Some people are arguing just to argue. | ||
j (Gogo) Posted From: 198.208.6.35 |
Brian - If you organize it. They will come. Why do you wait for others to take action? | ||
Brian (Brian) Posted From: 68.73.32.248 |
Aiw, you speak of battles like the others? What battles are you picking? Are you saying that the BC and the ML is a battle? Are these battles as I described above? Are preservationist selling their souls in Detroit to get their pet projects completed? Again, no one asked anyone for anything for Brush Park except for community support. Where are these people in Brush Park living? Surely they don't live in those bldgs pictured above? And if they were not being gentrified then perhaps they too would be rehabing their properties. Lastly you speak of the ML being an integral part architecturally of th neighborhood. Well half of the neighborhood was manufactured. You fear stating that you wish this bldg to be rehabed while you allow others to fall to the wrecking ball. That is not a preservationist. A true preservationist wants all the structures preserved. Many times in whatever condition they are in. Brush Park played a big role in the history of this city. It once housed the nicest neighborhoods in Detroit. Where the mayors and other dignitaries lived. A vast difference from Corktown I and II. Why not try to explain again how you wish folks to lose their home while you 'save' an empty bldg. (Obviolsy not realizing that the ML will come down as long as the owner and the city wish it.) | ||
The Aram (The_aram) Posted From: 204.39.12.71 |
"Why not try to explain again how you wish folks to lose their home while you 'save' an empty bldg. (Obviolsy not realizing that the ML will come down as long as the owner and the city wish it.)" Brian, no one lives in those burned-out hulks! Unless you count whatever squatter might be stupid enough to try to live in one for a night or two. People aren't losing their homes when there's no one living there to begin with! It's not like we're trying to bulldoze the entire neighborhood here! And if you have a problem with that, why aren't you over by St. Cyril's pitching a bitch? | ||
Patrick (Patrick) Posted From: 68.249.239.204 |
Brian, how can there be community support for BP, when not that many actually live in the area? | ||
jmy (Jmy8) Posted From: 205.188.209.80 |
Seems that part of this discussion is missing. There are real people who live in Brush Park who aren't buying at Crosswinds or the Carola development. And they've been screwed again and again and again, and they look to be screwed some more. These are long-term residents as well as people living in transient situations. And they're seriously (and rightly so) afraid that the years of being left at the margins will carry over as new development spreads and they're pushed out of their neighborhood because they never could buy a new condo. It isn't an either or situation: New condos, pile of rubble. In the middle of the discussion are people who have had to deal with living in an area almost totally abandonned and certainly neglected, as some would say, by design. They haven't had the benefit of tax dollars or private funds thrown at them or their living conditions. People still do live in Brush Park, in the dwindling number of apartment buildings and private homes that are too costly to maintain, and for years they've had to live there without things like street lights, sidewalks, police presence. Why should they be overjoyed at the Winder Street hotel/ bed-and-breakfast, when, as nice as it is, they could never imagine spending a night in a room with a jacuzzi that costs two months' rent? A jacuzzi?! Shit, they'd be happy not to have to worry about the drug dealers firebombing the building they live in. I wonder if not being able to afford a new condo had anything to do with living conditions in Brush Park? | ||
Andrew In Windsor (Aiw) Posted From: 209.216.150.127 |
Yeah, not being able to afford a condo keeps out the "riff-raff"... How right you are. Gentrification is bad, who wants a nice higher income neighbourhood near downtown... What good would downtown residents with disposable income be? Let's keep Brush Park a shithole! | ||
Pal (Pal) Posted From: 63.68.196.38 |
Good stuff Andrew and not the slightest bit surprising....... | ||
Andrew In Windsor (Aiw) Posted From: 209.216.150.127 |
Thanks Pal/CHUM/Buddy | ||
Brian (Brian) Posted From: 67.37.84.51 |
Aiw, I am not surprised at your posts. You show how you don't think about people and instead worship concrete and steel. Would you do the same in your own city? IS that why it too has its own problems? People like you who look to things instead of your own neighbors. jmy, glad to see others do know of the situation. Some of these so called preservationist would put people out of their homes for whatever cause they are protecting. But lost is the real issue of who makes a neighborhood and who has rights. Why do those who live there have to leave. But like Aiw shows, those moving in don't want to live near those who are already there. That's why the Corktown gentrification tie-in was/is important. | ||
Brian (Brian) Posted From: 67.37.84.51 |
Will the problems in Brush Park occur in Brush Park? Will the guy in Corktown realize his fears? If you watch them as they do wrong down the street, how long before they get to your house before you do something to stop them? After awhile there will be none left to support you. Who is truly apart of the Detroit community and who is trying to craft an inner community, isolated from all others? | ||
rustic (Rustic) Posted From: 130.132.177.245 |
AiW, the people who owned a lot of that property were not allowed to reap the benefits of their proximity to downtown. Many who were placed in a position (not of their own making) where they could neither fix up their property nor even secure their property for eventual redevelopment or resale and were eventually terrorized out of owning there (typically at a severe personal loss). For example ZERO police presence in BP for a decade (with a police station 4 blocks away and the well policed CBD and DMC just next door) allowed scavangers to run rampant. Land that had been ZONED for single family detatched housing for >150 years was collected, presented to a developer REZONED for row house development. There is nothing "good" about this from a preservationist's perspective, it is artificial and historically FALSE. AiW, those familiar with brush park in the 70's and early 80's (arguably the peak of Detroit crime) remember that BP itself was NOT a drug den, it was a few blocks away where the open market drug dealing went on, infact BP was RELATIVELY (remember we aren't talking about a sherwood forest part of town) quiet (in a creepy sort of omega man sense, but quiet nonetheless) (esp. compared to the hustle of the lower Cass corridor just across woodward). It was shortly AFTER a few people (not just "despicable" yuppies but a reasonably broad cross section of Detroit residents and income levels) OPENLY began attempting to rehab rundown, long neglected, subdivided 'historic' houses on what unfortunately was realestate that was determined to be more valuable in the larger picture than the 'historic' house on it that violent crime BOOMED in those blocks. If you don't believe me ASK those who were there. Similar shit (not identical but similar) played out in other places now championed by some on this forum as hapening historic neighborhoods and is happening RIGHT now other neighborhoods that some of you probably have never heard of. Detroit is a terrible, wonderful place. To put a smiley face on the shit that went down is not only ignorant and ugly BUT it is HISTORICALLY FALSE and DIMINISHES much of what makes living in a city a vibrant and vital experience. Preservationsists and historical Detroit buffs should CRINGE when people gloss over this stuff, NOT support it, good god! | ||
Andrew In Windsor (Aiw) Posted From: 209.216.150.127 |
Are the residents Homeowners? If so then there is no way to force them out. Are they squatters? Then they have no right to be there. If they are tennants, well then it's up to the landlord. I'm not sure if MI has any tennant protections laws or not, there are in Ontario. What's to keep a landlord (slumlord) from selling his building to the highest bidder? Why is gentrification so bad? It is the natural process... | ||
Steve (Hamtramck_steve) Posted From: 136.181.195.17 |
"Are the residents Homeowners? If so then there is no way to force them out." Wrong, wrong and wrong again. There are very open ways, such as was done to Poletown, slightly more hidden ways, a la Graimark, and then there's the "Rivertown" method. | ||
rustic (Rustic) Posted From: 130.132.177.245 |
AiW, many of the individual property owners were forced out via a combination of genuine old fashioned terr0rism (crime, murder, arson, strong arming, a combination of heavy handed and light handed gangster shit went down once the value of that area was codified (when was it? 84 or so?) ... no kidding) and curiously balloning tax and insurance costs (the EXACT opposite of that is has been going on with mothballed buildings in the CBD) and a complete inability to sell the property at it's so-called TMV. In addition, these tactics also scared off stable renters leaving , how shall I put it, less-than-demanding tenants. Ask around, this isn't BS, it happened. No offense AiW but if you are really interested, ASK around, naive tit for tat posts are pointless ... ask those who were aware in the 80's-90's ... you seem to know your way around Detroit (at least near the CBD) you should be able to find this out on your own. No harsh intent meant with this, AiW, explore, converse, enjoy. AiW re what so bad about gentrification? gentrification as a natural process? well that REQUIRES that some neighborhoods at some point go down the toilet, other wise there is nothing to gentrify, right? Unfortunately most middle class and poor people in the US have the bulk of their personal assets tied up in their homes, I guess it is just too bad and tough shit for those unfortunate enough to happen to own in areas as they are being flushed down the toilet for eventual "gentrification". To think that this is ALWAYS somehow natural is pretty simplistic. Some of Detroit's neighborhoods are covered with scar tissue prescisely because they bore witness to severe and savage shit played out on the residents. | ||
jmy (Jmy8) Posted From: 12.75.52.142 |
It's not that new housing is bad, or that new development is bad, but that there has been a huge injustice served on people who have lived in Brush Park and who continue to live there. And they're expected to make way for condos and "urban professionals" because people are tired of looking at poverty and decline, but nothing was done to mitigate those circumstances beforehand, and nothing is being done now. Spoke with a woman who has owned a house in BP for 30-odd years and who was talking one day with a contractor working in the neighborhood. Found out her house was (erroneously) on a demolition list, and was petrified to leave home because it might not have been there when she came back. | ||
Brian (Brian) Posted From: 67.37.83.190 |
Some very good posts above, rustic, steve, jmy (and any I missed). Gives a good handle on the problems experienced by those who tried to make their community (Brush Park) a better place but was in the way of the politics of the Archer administration. The posts above left out one reason Brush Park is as it is today. Archer and crew lied to them just as they tried to lie to those in Graimark. But Graimark saw it coming in time to lawyer up and fight for something. The city told those in Brush Park, as they did under Archer and now under Kilpatrick, that property owners (home owners) must move or the city will take your home. No explanation. Some fell for this because just as the ignorance shows above, people think you can't fight the government. This is another reason Archer ran away from a re-election. Aiw, I know you are learning. Where did you get the notion that gentrification is not a bad thing? | ||
Kjwick (Kjwick) Posted From: 141.214.17.5 |
Brian, You seem very interested in the Brush Park community and history. Do you live there? | ||
_ (Mauser765) Posted From: 206.148.224.120 |
Im curious about bringing in the so-called "gentrification" issue into any existing or possible renovations of Brush Park. If all of Brush Park is retored to its original state of splendor - then what we will be left with is an extremely ritzy high priced hood that not too many people reading this forum could afford. Right ? Thats what Brush Park looks like in my history books - a big rich-asz hood. So any talk of more restoration attention focused on Brush Park combined with the gentrification argument seems to be gibberish to me. Any true restoration will absolutely by its definition in BP result in gentrification. Anything different is no longer restoration. So - we cant have everything both ways etc. | ||
j (Gogo) Posted From: 198.208.6.35 |
Brian - In a historic district, the Buildings and Safety Dept cannot issue a permit for demolishion without historic district commission approval. In a historic district, the HDC decides if a building is to be demolished or not. As I've already said, if you are so passionate about the buildings of Brush Park, organize a building hug, and people will come. I can site many difference between the buildings of Brush park and the Madison-Lenox. The ML hotel is in a developed neighborhood that consists of buildings that are entirely occupied and restored. The property values are much higher on Madison Ave and therefore can support the costs of renovation. Buildings in Brush Park are surrounded by other crumbling buildings and while I know of no feasibility study that has been done on these buildings, I imagine that the property in this area may not support the cost of renovation. There is more to the ML issue than preservation. It makes financial sense. Feasibility studies have concluded that it can be profitable to renovate the ML give the value of the area. I know of no study that has made this conclusion for the buildings of Brush Park. Additionally there have been developers who have come forward to rehab the ML hotel. I'm not familiar with what developers have come forward for rehabbing BP buildings. After seeing the brownstones on John R. restored, I have faith that every single building in BP can be restored, but those are selling for $400K. I'm not sure that all of the buildings in BP can support a selling price of that amount. The ML is an especially desirable building to "hug" not just because it has historic designation, but because it makes financial sense. | ||
_ (Mauser765) Posted From: 206.148.224.120 |
Heres the now RIP structure I think people are referring to as having "one wall" etc. I must say - this building looks to me as if it has small parts of ALL FOUR walls...well at least three anyway.  Heres a favorite of mine I call affectionately "Noface"..  Here is an existing JohnR apartment development after being "prepped". Note the lack of anything beyond the facade.  Gentrification already ? The sign says that the lowest end townhouses will be 190K+.  | ||
Brian (Brian) Posted From: 67.37.83.23 |
_, are you jealous of the history of Brush Park? SO what if its or was an upscale neighborhood. Gentrification involves getting rid of the natural residents and replacing them with another. That is not a natural process. Its a purposeful act. The natural process is to allow the market to affect the neighborhood. This would have happened allowing those who wanted to rehab their homes to do so, those who wanted to remain to do so and those who wanted those new townhomes to have them. But the decision was made in political circles, which includes business persons, to raze the entire area and push out those who are/were there. See some of those informative posts above. This was not the natural cycle at work but a power play to enrich certain pockets and move out the Black folks that Archer did not want too close to downtown. If you don't want it both ways then you need to campaign to stop governments from engaging in gentrification in one part of the city and at the same time paying developers to build in other areas of the city. j, that ain't what was said. The B&S dept does not support bldgs for rehab. They issue recomendations not based on their own personal feelings on the structure. Those so called preservationist are the ones who decide what to support and what not to support. In some of the cities these so called preservationist worship as world class, the people who support old bldgs for rehab support all bldgs. They don't pick and choose as is being done in Detroit. As shown right here in this thread. The ML neighborhood is a ghost town. The block it sits on is dead. That whole area is basically street parking for the court house down the street. OR the tigers on the weekends in the summer time. This is what the proposal for rehab was rejected by the owners. The plan did nothing to really generate revenue for the bldg in that area. Finally, j, you are doing the same as those above you which is repeating things you have heard but not really understood. There have been studies about Brush Park. Otherwise why would they be building in the area? If it was not profitable there would be no issue of gentrification. Now the ML study was rejected by the city whom is paying millions to force the CBD into some sort of new retail phase. Funny how they think so little of the study you cite being that they and the soups are the ones shaping the CBD into the image. | ||
j (Gogo) Posted From: 198.208.6.35 |
Again Brian, if you would like to hug BP, please let me know the date and time and I will be there. Otherwise shut up. | ||
TonyM (Tonym) Posted From: 63.87.18.76 |
Gentrification may be necessary to save the City - a few may suffer, but in the long run (big picture) perhaps the City can prosper and, in turn, its residents en mass enjoy a better quality of life. "Nature" has not worked in Detroit, go figure... | ||
j (Gogo) Posted From: 198.208.6.35 |
This was clearly not evident at the January HDC meeting. The head of B&S provided no evidence for his recommendation or proof that the building was dangerous. In order for a permit to be issued from the B&S w/o HDC approval, the building would have to be on the verge of collapse. This is clearly not the case of the ML as it has been standing for months after they issued the permit.
This is very true, however most cities do not have the a large stock of endangered buildings that Detroit does. So it is a lot easier for preservationists to hug all endangered buildings in cities like Chicago. Detroit has so many endangered buildings it is difficult, even for the HDC, to hug all buildings. For the umpteenth time, if you want to make the buildings of BP an issue at the forefront of peoples minds, then I strongly urge you to get off your computer and do something about it. I WILL SUPPORT YOU. But if all you want to do is bitch, then I WILL IGNORE YOU. | ||
Myers (Myers) Posted From: 216.152.109.164 |
magical... | ||
Drew (Drew) Posted From: 68.40.39.222 |
I know I feel something......oh wait, just a wedgie. | ||
Brian (Brian) Posted From: 67.37.83.23 |
j, again you need to think for yourself. The City's B&S dept has licensed people working inspecting and issuing recomendations. I am sure you do not know what they do and how they reach their conclusion. If an inspector was caught using personal feelings or political influence or other similar methods in their duties they would lose their license and could face criminal penalities. It would be fraud and other possible more serious crimes. If you and the others think this occured you need to visit the new prosecutor. The B&S is not required to show you or the Historical commission why they have recommended a bldg be demolished. Or why they have labeled it as dangerous. Maybe you and the others should actually ask them to produce the report. Chicago has more bldgs sitting empty than Detroit. As does many other large cities in America. Detroit may have a high 'percentage' of city owned property but it has the same amount of vacant bldgs and land as other cities. Perhaps you did not read all the reviews of Houston this past week. This thread was and is not about the bldgs in Brush Park. IT was about a subject much more important. The people who live there and own their own property. It seems this thread has shown a new side to Detroit preservationists. They will support bldgs with no ties to the community and its people but won't support home owners who are being put out of their homes. | ||
j (Gogo) Posted From: 198.208.6.35 |
Then why did the head of B&S agree to rescind the permit that he issued in error? If he was confident that the building was about to fall down on itself, why then did he agree to rescind the permit?
You must be confusing preservations with humanitarians or something. Last time I checked, preservationists fight to save buildings, not people. Go bark up Focus Hopes tree. | ||
jmy (Jmy8) Posted From: 12.75.24.139 |
Yeah, it's easier to rally around a vacant building than to give a shit about the people you don't want to see living there. | ||
rustic (Rustic) Posted From: 130.132.177.245 |
mauser, you are muddling up three unrelated issues. (1) what happened in Brush Park (2) gentrification (3) rehabbing old homes (1) what happened in Brush Park was basically a new twist on old fashioned urban renewal: obtain. collect, tear down, rezone, and build new (modern twists being new spin on old block busting techniques from the 60's and 70's). (2) gentrification. Look, if market forces increase the value of property that's GREAT! If, as the property increases in value and wealthier types of people want to move in, hey, that would represent a healthy system. Note that this allows the CURRENT RESDIENTS of a community a choice as to how to reap the benefits of living in an "improving" neighborhood (e.g. continue living there and taking advantage of better local shopping and better services or maybe even (if they are property owners) selling their property at a fair market price). That didn't happen in BP. That didn't happen in Briggs. In these cases many residents and/or property owners were forced out/taken over prior to attempting "gentrification". These two cases differ in specifics scale and scope but the development models have rough similarities. (3a) rehabbing old homes. First it happens all the time all over detroit and it's suburbs. In some neighborhoods rehab is basically a cottage industry and one of the selling points of the community (e.g. IV, BE, downtown b'ham and downtown plymouth). In other neighborhoods it has gone on with less publicity (e.g. Woodbridge). In other neighborhoods it is just part and parcel of the required maintenance of living in older homes (city or suburb) whether they are >100 yo (e.g. Hubbard Richard) or ~75 yo (e.g North Rosedale Park, Palmer Woods, much of GP) or even 50 yo (e.g South Rosedale Park, the nice parts of "Old" Redford, Huntington Woods ...). (3b) rehabbing old homes. Second who sez people doing the rehab couldn't "afford" to live in the product of their hard work? why not? Happens all the time all over the city. Consider Indian village or BE which by now has had GENERATIONS of people buy houses there excited at the opportunity to live in and possibly restore a grand old home. But don't kid your self for a second, MANY (if not MOST, hell if not ALL) of those petit bourgeois with dreams of re-habing those big old houses are FURTHER removed from the social stratum of the original residents than they are from the streetwalkers and zombies living and working a couple of blocks away. Consider Woodbridge as an even better example. In many of the other neighborhoods of Detroit and it's suburbs, "rehab" is part and parcel of simply the regular maintenance and changing tastes (e.g. an appreciation of HW floors and original molding has recently has replaced a desire for W/W carpeting and smooth blank walls a few generations ago). It is completely UNREASONABLE to expect that fixing up yer house somehow prices you out of your house. | ||
Myers (Myers) Posted From: 216.152.109.163 |
How many people "living" in Brush Park owned the house they were "living" in? | ||
BV (Bvos) Posted From: 68.252.2.194 |
Rustic, A quick correction on item #2. Rosedale Park (or South Rosedale as you call it) had its first house built in 1917. The first house built in North Rosedale Park was built in the mid-20s. There are quite a few pre-1920 homes in Rosedale Park. The big building boom for both neighborhoods was pre-Depression and post-Depression. The vast majority of homes that make up the character of both neighborhoods were completed by 1940 or earlier. So the Rosedale Parks would be in the 60-85 year old range, not 50 year old. This is important since the 1950's marked the start of the character-less tract housing that has now taken over the whole country. I do think there is some credence to Mauser's post that everyone currently in Brush Park will be priced out some day. Look at other neighborhoods where rehabbers entered years ago (numerous Boston neighborhoods, Uptown and Loring Park in Minneapolis, DuPont Circle and 14th & U St. in Wash. DC, Indian Village and increasingly West Village in Detroit) and you will see homes that were affordable to middle and lower middle class families and individuals now in the price range of upper-middle class to upper class families. Those that owned and fixed up their homes made out very well. Those that rented no longer live in those neighborhoods because they can't afford them. | ||
Steve (Hamtramck_steve) Posted From: 136.181.195.17 |
The Friends of the B-C already did that and guess what, the only "report" is Amru Meah's signature on a document. Much like the "documentation" that the Ilitch's have to "prove" their case, consisting of a one-page letter from an environmental consulting firm, testifying about the structure when nobody on staff is a structural engineer! | ||
Andrew In Windsor (Aiw) Posted From: 64.228.146.101 |
Aplogies to all, I was under the impression that the gentrification was natural, now politically caused. Perhaps the worst kind of gentification is occuring in London, England. I moved there with my parents in 1979 (we lived there until 1981). In 1979 my family purchsed a Victorian Tereace house in Battersea for about 25,000 pounds. When we sold the house to move back to Canada in 1981, the house sold for about 45,000 pounds. Today, identical homes (well, they're all identical) on the same street sell in the 700,000 pound mark (about 1.2 million USD). http://www.betweenthecommons.com/ Also England has a "sitting tennant law". Which in a nutshell means, if you buy a house that a renter, you cannot evict them (as long as they are paying rent, etc..). You must wait for them to either: a. Move of their own free will or b. Die There are many people who have bought these million dollar homes only to have to wait 20-30 years to move in... | ||
Steve (Hamtramck_steve) Posted From: 136.181.195.17 |
Geez, with a law like that, you'd think the murder rate would be much higher. Do coroners over there have a special category of death, like "Renter's Disease"? | ||
jmy (Jmy8) Posted From: 12.75.23.136 |
Why does owner occupancy matter? | ||
Kjwick (Kjwick) Posted From: 141.214.17.5 |
Brian, What is your affiliation with Brush Park? You seem to know a lot, but I question the accuracy of some of your claims. How many "Home Owners" living in their homes were evicted? Where is the evidence? I'm not saying that it didn't happen; I am just saying that I have not seen any hard claims. | ||
rustic (Rustic) Posted From: 130.132.177.245 |
BV, thanks for the clarification on my favorite part of Detroit (minor point, but thanks anyway ) I had always figured South Rosedale Park as having more "newer" post ww2 homes than North Rosedale. BV, I read mauser's post as him confusing Brush Park's circumstance, gentrification and rehabing. Re rehab, I was trying to emphasize that rehab is not some museum piece restoration, but instead part and parcel of living in older homes anywhere in metro Detroit. BV, re getting priced out of your home, you are speculating. Many people who fixed up woodbrigde houses in the 70s, 80s and early 90s still live there OR more importantly could still afford to live there. Same is true for Corktown. Housing prices even in the best neighborhoods of Detroit are still well below their suburban counterparts both in actual value AND long term appreciation rate so even IF the value goes up many residents may find it economically a better decision to NOT move on. In addition, metro Detroit housing prices are CHEAP compared to other parts of the country. Where I live low-end housing prices are probably 2-3X metro detroit prices and higher end housing is probably 3-5x (no kidding), wages are probably comparable but certainly NOT 2x (at least for working stiffs) yet plenty of people make do and stretch with staggering mortage payments relative to metro Detrot. So, residents DO have a lot of choices if housing prices boom, moving is just one choice. The same is true for renters. BV, yeah yeah I know I owe you an e-mail, I just have not had a chance to sit down give it the time it deserves, I have been thinking about it and I'll shoot it to you one of these days. | ||
Myers (Myers) Posted From: 216.152.109.161 |
Ok...how many people were renting the "houses" they were "living" in? The guy with the gasoline powered bicycle seems to have found a new home.. | ||
jmy (Jmy8) Posted From: 12.75.23.136 |
Ok, I guess I don't get your point. . . . Is it that there are squatters in Brush Park? Yes, there are. | ||
Myers (Myers) Posted From: 216.152.109.165 |
Yes. Squatters is a polite word. | ||
Andrew In Windsor (Aiw) Posted From: 64.228.146.190 |
jmy, Owner Occupancy matters, because if you rent, and the owner of the property chooses to sell said property, well the renter could very well be SOL. I'd be willing to bet that 99% of the renters in Brush Park, have no legally binding written lease, hence no legal recourse when gentrification or greed forces them out. | ||
jmy (Jmy8) Posted From: 12.75.23.136 |
Well, as much as I am sypathetic to the circumstances that lead people to a life that has them spending their days searching for drugs and living in abandoned buildings, these aren't the people being totally screwed in Brush Park. In fact, as much as the people living in Brush Park are generally poor or elderly, there are also fairly well off home owners and renters, too. It's a mixed bag, and very few can say that they haven't gotten the short end of the stick. Case in point: I toured a building in Brush Park about five or six years ago at the beginning of a due diligence effort. The place was a wreck, a total wreck. But, people lived there, real people. People who certainly deserved better living conditions but couldn't afford anything better. Yes, there were obviously tenants caught up in some sort of drug situation, but there were also elderly people and working stiffs, people who had been there a long time and living at the margins of a society that doesn't want to see them. When I met the landlord, I expected to see some fat-cat POS, but instead I met someone who was in over their head and financially and socially not too far removed from most of their tenants. The landlord had owned the building for a long time, and had done as well as they could considering the circumstances of the neighborhood. I wouldn't go so far as to say that this was a great landlord, but they were broke, and desperate, and at wit's end. The company I did the tour for passed on the building, but, through neighbors, I kept current with what was going on there. A new owner bought it and started renovations. He evicted all of the drug dealers and users en masse. The night of the evictions, someone threw a Molotov cocktail into the lobby, and the place burned to the ground. For at least fifteen years, people have been trying to do something in Brush Park, and what little success there has been has come despite the city's (in)actions. There are still people who live there legitimately, and they deserve a modicum of respect and decency and dignity, which they haven't gotten. (And if they don't live there legitimately, they still deserve a modicum of respect and decency and dignity, which they may never get.) | ||
jmy (Jmy8) Posted From: 12.75.23.136 |
I agree with you Andrew, but I don't think that was the intended message of the original post. | ||
Myers (Myers) Posted From: 216.152.109.165 |
"He evicted all of the drug dealers and users en masse. The night of the evictions, someone threw a Molotov cocktail into the lobby, and the place burned to the ground." Case in point. | ||
jmy (Jmy8) Posted From: 12.75.23.136 |
Case in point how? | ||
rustic (Rustic) Posted From: 130.132.177.245 |
Myers, your short response to jmy8's post begs some questions. What happened in Brush park was complicated and simple cause and effect masked deeper stuff. Meyers, (based on what jmy8 posted) who do YOU think burned the place to the ground? I assume from your post you figure it was the drug dealers. Why? Why would they do it? Since when can you EVICT drug dealers? If they are lease holding tenants (as implied by an eviction) why not simply inform the police since you know who they are? If they are gonna sell drugs (risking injury, death and arrest on a daily, even hourly basis), why the hell would they abide by some bullshit lease? Isn't it more reasonable that drug dealers would NOT sign a lease but simply coerce their way into business wherever tolerated? Doesn't THAT make more sense? Isn't that how things really work? So, who benefited from the place being a ruin? Is there anything fishy about this story? Do you think the story is true? Note, jmy8 reports it second hand ("through neighbors, I kept current with what was going on there"). Meyers, think a bit man! Don't just knee jerk a response! This is Detroit we are talking about. Shit is complicated and far reaching (read the old grayhaven thread which was recently discussed on another thread for a historical example from the "good old days". | ||
jmy (Jmy8) Posted From: 12.75.22.195 |
Valid points rustic. Another question it also begs: What conditions lead a long-term landlord to rent to drug dealers (knowingly or not) to keep their head above water? Drug dealers do often pay rent. . . . Drug dealers have rental rights, as does everyone, lease or no lease. You can't just toss someone out on the street without due process. This was a bailiff eviction. | ||
Myers (Myers) Posted From: 216.152.109.161 |
I'm working on the "assumption" that jmy8's story is the truth. So, do we know for sure who burned the building to the ground? Was it a coincidence? What do you think? Also, do you believe that a private landlord cannot evict a tennant for suspected drug sales/use? | ||
BV (Bvos) Posted From: 68.252.2.194 |
Michigan law and HUD law allow landlords to evict tennants for failure to keep their apartment "peaceable". Drug dealing is an activity that the law and courts say is a failure to keep the property "peaceable". It only takes one complaint from a tennat who saw drug dealing going on to start the eviction process. This has been standard procedure for Section 8 and other HUD and MSHDA properties for years. You will have no problem getting a drug dealer evicted in 36th District Court. | ||
jmy (Jmy8) Posted From: 12.75.52.69 |
That is correct, BV, but it is the rare tenant who will appear in court to point a finger, especially when the consequences can be so great. One usually needs a police report (or similar report from another agency) to get an emergency or health hazard/ injury to premises eviction. A 30-Day tends to work best, and a lot of damage can be done in that time. | ||
Myers (Myers) Posted From: 216.152.109.166 |
So it is correct? We are agreeing on that. | ||
BV (Bvos) Posted From: 68.252.2.194 |
A police report or social services report will start a 7 day eviction process. The balifs at 36th District Court seem to take a sick pleasure in the 7 day evictions. | ||
Brian (Brian) Posted From: 68.73.32.73 |
Many bldgs in Brush Park were burned as described above. If you talk to the people fighting to save Brush Park you will hear the same story. Many were and in some cases still are afraid to leave their homes too long because when they return it too may be burned. Some other posters have already related the poor city services Brush Park has received in the last decade. This was Archer's legacy and the way to gentrification. If DFD can't get to the fire or doesn't know there is a fire, there is no reason to go through the hard process of condemnation on an owner living in a home. A burnt husk with a high demolition bill will encourage the average owner to sell to avoid the risks of fines. That part of the city services were heavily enforced in Brush Park. There have been mysterious murders in Brush Park on certain property owners both commercial and residential. DPD have also been lax in that area. For all of Archer's talk of wanting to increase people for the census, or supporting development to make a world class city, or the other things he was fond of saying, he did nothing for Brush Park residents instead of encourage them to leave. Just like Graimark. The Michigan Citizen Newspaper has done a fine job of relating these stories in the past and the overall issues in Brush Park. Unlike the two dailies, Michigan Citizen reporters talk to the people in Detroit. On the Detroit B&S, if the man violated his oath of office or license, you can address it in front of the city council. Because that would mean there is corruption in the department. (And I mentioned reporting it to the prosecutor.) If this is what you are stating its your responsibility to report it officially. You probably thought there would be a report with a story book format of how this inspector decided to issue his decision. Instead he is empowered to make the decision because of his(their) expertise. But again, you seem to be tossing out an alegation against someone who cannot defend themselves. | ||
Steve (Hamtramck_steve) Posted From: 68.41.216.208 |
I don't know about a "story book format" but I was certainly expecting to see reference to something about the specific building to justify his signature. | ||
Metrodetguy (Metrodetguy) Posted From: 205.188.209.80 |
Mauser765, you shouldn't read too much into the fact that the lowest end townhouses will be 190K+. The average home in Wayne County is $162,000+ (and in tri-county Metro Detroit it's almost $199,000). Also, housing costs in just about any city's downtown are more expensive. | ||
Gumby (Gumby) Posted From: 67.72.200.130 |
From dictionary.com gen·tri·fi·ca·tion (jntr-f-kshn) n. The restoration and upgrading of deteriorated urban property by middle-class or affluent people, often resulting in displacement of lower-income people. Looks to me like AIW's assumption was correct. Gentrification from the dictionary definition appears to be naturally occuring. While I do agree that this definatly sucks for the poor people it is not inherrantly wrong. Affluent people have every right to legally obtain a property and rehab it. In fact this should be encouraged for the financial stability of a region. Now if someone is being forced from a home that they rightfully belong in then that is where the problem arises. That is in fact wrong. | ||
Brian (Brian) Posted From: 67.37.84.223 |
Interesting definition. It suggests that gentrification does not occur in rural areas. Or perhaps areas defined as suburban? Why? Are there no poor people in non-urban places? So what makes urban areas targets for the displacement of lower-income people? Why makes the affuent decide to gentrify? Are you reading only what you want to hear? Your last sentence is what has been going on in Brush Park as well as graimark and other places in Detroit. Its what the letter writer from Corktown feared. Being forced out of a home he rightfully owns. | ||
Gumby (Gumby) Posted From: 67.72.200.130 |
No Brian I am reading what is there in plain English. Just like most everyone else I have no agenda like you seem to want us to have. Interesting definition? I didn't write the thing it is straight out of the dictionary. Are you stating that the dictionary is wrong? What makes the affluent decide to gentrify you ask. Do you really think there are a bunch of rich white guys going around twisting their mustaches trying to figure out how they can stick it to the poor man. No one just up and decides to Gentrify a neighbohood, accoding to this definition. It happens over time, just like it took time for it to turn into a schitthole. From what I have seen the houses posted on this thread probably are unrepairable. Would you disagree? I ask that fully prepared to have you completely ignore my question and claim that I am some ignorant white boy who isn't paying attention to the "abundant facts" (lol) that you have provided us with. | ||
rustic (Rustic) Posted From: 68.167.65.76 |
gumby's posted definition of gentrification does not describe the situation in brush park. note the term 'people' in the definition, not corporations, not development agencies and not gvt orgs. assuming that definition represents standard usage, consider how warped the term is used to describe BP urban renewal. | ||
Gumby (Gumby) Posted From: 67.72.200.130 |
Thank you rustic that is all I was trying to say. Not supporting what is going on just trying to clarify the misuse of the word. Man I feel like a real member of detroityes now that I have had a run in with Brian. lol. Not saying he doesn't make some valid points, they are just hard to see while wading through the other BS he posts. | ||
rustic (Rustic) Posted From: 68.167.65.76 |
just for fun I went to gumby's dictionary.com site and looked up a word that is more likely to have negative connotations to the rah rah comic book version of history crowd than 'gentrification', namely: urban renewal n. so guys, based on dictionary.com's terminology which word describes what went down in BP? are the relatively well off 'urban pioneers' now 'gentrifying' BP simply taking advantage of a modern version of old school urban renewal for their kind? | ||
rustic (Rustic) Posted From: 68.167.65.76 |
gumby, imo brian is one of the more knowledgable forumers on a broad variety of topics. in particular his posts on detroit byzantium are generally dead on. instead of attempting to mimic some of your peers on this forum and needlessly draw him into distractng arguments about minutae you would do well to talk with him politely and civilly, he generally has interesting points to make and has an interesting perspective on many topics. i very much enjoy reading brian's substantive posts. | ||
Gumby (Gumby) Posted From: 67.72.200.130 |
I'm not trying to mimic anyone rustic. I was just stateing what I generally see him post. Unlike some of my peers I give Brian credit for having some valid points. But you must admit he demands answers to his questions while answering no one elses. I have lurked around long enough to realize that the polite and civil responses don't usually get reciprocated. Look at this quote from Brian to me, "Are you reading only what you want to hear?" Maybe he meant nothing maliceous by it but it isn't exactly the most polite and civil questions to ask of someone who just posted a fricken definition from the dictionary. I mean at the begining of this thread started by him he more or less attacks the people from the ML hug saying that they don't give a crap about the people in the Brush Park area, and then claims that everyone who doesn't agree with him has some sort of agenda. Am I just misunderstanding him? Possibly, Brian is probably a great guy who just doesn't deal well with opinion that differ from his. | ||
Brian (Brian) Posted From: 67.37.84.223 |
Thank you for the accolades rustic. To keep it short I would say ditto to your posts and then some. Gumby, I was not necessarily getting on your case. But i was trying to make you think. Something rustic was able to do. I would ask you if you think a dictionary is right. They change their definitions quite often for something that is supposed to be defined. But the definition of gentrification does not explain the act or process. Why do the affluent, being affluent, not go and develop in areas where there are no people? Is the definition suggesting that all the space has been filled? OR that the affluent target the neighborhood with the lower income people? Why are the lower income persons displaced and not simply bought out? Gentrification forces someone out where as the realestate market, as a free market, buys owners out. I did suggest that some have agendas. Because the posts beg the question, why would anyone not want to support those who are in need in Brush Park? If you read articles like the one I linked above, no one was asking for money or a hug effort. Just the support in front of the mayor and city council. It usually would only take a letter. Twenty minutes and thirty-seven cents. But you see the attitudes of those above. If you want bldgs supported in the city then you need people who live in the city to support them. Alienating the people by encouraging things like the gentrification of Brush Park does not gather fellow supporters but encourages distrust and suspicion. The person who wrote the letter from Corktown had these fears and suspicions. He heard and read people, some who talked of his neighborhood, makeing plans for his future without even bothering to get his OK. He is after all a resident. He empowers this government like the rest of us residents. He expressed himself and look at the attention he recieved. But his letter had begun to put more public negativity on the projects in Corktown. Brush Park residents have been doing the same and more but since they are on the opposite end of the political hammer, they did not get printed in the major dalies. As to the propaganda posted in the form of images above, it seems those advocating for gentrification have forgotten the rights of residents. Detroit residents are and were denied the right to buy property in that area, clear it and build a home. The city forbid infill housing. They forbid individual ownership. | ||
Gumby (Gumby) Posted From: 67.72.200.130 |
Brian, If the statements you make are true, which I have no way to say they are or other wise. Then yes what is going on is wrong. But to say that they don't care about the people because they don't "hug" the neighborhood is not right either. You are right the definition does not explain the process of what is going on. But that does not mean the definition is wrong. Oh believe me I don't need you to make me think. My Psych. and Philosophy Professors do that too much already. lol.  | ||
_ (Mauser765) Posted From: 206.148.224.82 |
Metroguy - yeah, in Wayne County overall that is a fair average. But Brush Park ? Not the same as Northville or Plymouth. I dont really know what to think about the BP renovation in terms of displacing current residents and squatters. I was actually trying to ask Brian questions about his position, but he's waaaay too smart to get trapped into answering questions. | ||
Kjwick (Kjwick) Posted From: 141.214.17.5 |
Brian, Where is the evidence of displaced home owners? I'm not saying it didn't happen, but several things make me question. Why are there a handful of people still owning private parcels in Brush Park south, central, and north? The people that own these homes are by no means wealthy. The powers at be decided to only take certain peoples homes? How do you know the people claiming to have their homes taken really owned them? I think if you provide some evidence of wrong doing, you would find a lot of support on this forum to help those individuals. I know it's a little late now, but you claim the process is still occurring. There are people that could still be helped. In my opinion, all you have provided above are stories. Do you personally know any home owners who have had fires in their homes in Brush Park? Those that I have talked to were very impressed with the fire department. Glancing over the other stories - the woman who had her house on the demolition list? I heard the story. Did you see the demolition list? Did she see the demolition list? How did she know? Did she know, or was she just afraid? Who in Brush Park has had their home mistakenly demolished? The owner of the drug house that was fire bombed... What response do you expect out of him? So after the druggies moved out of that house (was it really before the apartment burned?) they moved into another in the neighborhood. Why didn't they burn that one after they were kicked out from their? The people were nicer kicking them out? There are several problems with the development going on in Brush Park. Many buildings are being razed that should not be. The neighborhood is dangerously close (if not already) to losing its National Historic Designation. If people are REALLY being forced from their homes, it is a serious problem also. But it seems that your arguments are just stories, and as one sided as the City and developers that say everything is rosie - just on the other side. | ||
jmy (Jmy8) Posted From: 12.75.52.121 |
I know the woman who had her house on the contractor's demolition list. She chatted up some guy on a bulldozer, and he pointed out her house as one to go the next week. She told him he was wrong, but he had a list with her house on it. She attended a meeting to seek help, and a police officer stepped in to resolve the misunderstanding. As for the fire bombed building. Again, fairly high profile as far as these things go, and on the news, to boot. How does a landlord (or homeowner) compete in a market that has gone to hell by design? Who will live in a neighborhood that doesn't have street lights or a police presence or sidewalks? (But, hey, since Comerica Park opened, the street sweeper goes through every night.) The building that burned: What is a long-term landlord supposed to do when "more demanding" tenants won't live there, when a core of elderly tenants begins moving away (or dying), when poverty has so blighted a neighborhood that he or she has to rent to the least demanding tenants to keep the water running and stay afloat? (Never mind fixing the roof.) And still come up short? How do you compete (or own a home that needs a lot of work and maintainance) in a market when you can't get a loan from a bank or cooperation from the city? Or when the city actively discourages (or works against) investment? | ||
Brasziz (Brasziz) Posted From: 67.72.221.121 |
Can somebody explain the idea behind closing several streets off to make pedestrian promenades or malls? When was this done? It looks like it was designed to isolate a few occupied houses by making them inaccessible to vehicular traffic, in the vein of Washington Boulevard. Was this part of the plan to isolate the recalcitrant homeowners? | ||
Myers (Myers) Posted From: 216.152.109.161 |
In reading all of the posts since yesterday, I guess I still don't see any eveidence? All I've read is that some lady almost got her house bulldozed. Almost. | ||
rustic (Rustic) Posted From: 68.167.65.76 |
Myers, read more carefully, what you read was that a "some guy" ("on a bulldozer", no less) showed a lady (who turned out to be a homeowner) a list and told her her home would be demolished shortly. That act would TERR0RIZE just about any homeowner or resident living in ANY area but esp one as, shall we put it, plastic as BP. The "list" may well have been bogus from a legal standpoint. Hell the guy on the bulldozer might have been some knee-breaking goon, and not a construction worker, who knows? Anyway, that espisode could just as easily easily be construed as an example of strong-arm gangster tactics. Who did this guy work for? What was this list? Who wrote it? Meyers, what are you looking for? A front page expose five years ago in the Det News on criminal realestate acts in BP? A public vetting of multi-year FBI investigation results on it (like the continuous probes and bugs and inside informants of the CAY administration)? Well that never happened ... they pretty much got away with it plain and simple. | ||
rustic (Rustic) Posted From: 68.167.65.76 |
gumby, apologies if my post to you seemed hostile, it just seems to me that many people on this forum try to goad brian into weird off topic arguments for the purposes of "proving" him wrong in some minor point and thus somehow diminishing the larger points he generally is making. apologies for lumping you in with these others. gumby it is interesting how the term "gentrification" is used much more broadly than the definition posted. I suspect "gentrification" is less of a "dirty" word with the money and political classes than "urban renewal" so it is used in place of "urban renewal". | ||
Jfried (Jfried) Posted From: 209.131.7.190 |
Does anyone have information on the Brush Park Redevelopment Authority, including contact information? | ||
jmy (Jmy8) Posted From: 12.75.52.73 |
I guess I also just don't know what evidence Myers is looking for. . . . That the squatter with the gas-powered bike is a bad guy and that Brush Park was laid to waste because of him? Absent malicious intent, at the very least, the anecdote about the woman's house is telling because it shows a certain mindset: "What you have owned here for 30 years is garbage and we're gonna take it down whether you like it or not. We don't think much of you, so get used to it. Now, find a rock to crawl under and shut up while we get started." | ||
Myers (Myers) Posted From: 216.152.109.164 |
Rustic. Just looking for some solid facts. Documented cases. If you say there are. I tend to believe you. But a story about a woman "almost" getting her house bulldozed didn't really prove anything to me. | ||
Kjwick (Kjwick) Posted From: 141.214.17.5 |
Rustic, "Who did this guy work for? What was this list? Who wrote it?" Valid questions. There are many more that could be added. But don't you think they should be answered before an administration or company is blaimed for trying to displace neighborhood homeowners? As for terrorizing the homeowner, come on. You mean to tell me someone who has lived in Brush Park for 30 years with murders, open drug dealing in the streets, etc, etc, doesn't have a little thicker skin. Detroit isn't a place for the emotionally week. "Well that never happened ... they pretty much got away with it plain and simple. " Got away with what? Has anyone even provided a single property owner that was "forced" out of their property? Or is this all based on, "I heard of someone telling someone else about this person who supposedly owned this place and they were kicked out for urban renewal. jmy "How does a landlord (or homeowner) compete in a market that has gone to hell by design? Who will live in a neighborhood that doesn't have street lights or a police presence or sidewalks? (But, hey, since Comerica Park opened, the street sweeper goes through every night.)" My response would be talk to landlords that were successful; there are some you know. The neighborhood was considered my many a blight since the 1940's. While I don't have housing values, I'm going to guess they were also low in the 1960's. How much money do you think needed to be invested to obtain these buildings? I think it is safe to say not very much. Maybe the owners chose not to compete for a better clientel. Brian, What Detroiters were denied buying property or building new? What evidence could you possibly have? Sure, the city of Detroit just doesn't give out property to anyone, but that stems from development problems experienced in the neighborhood in the early 80's. I'm not saying that their weren't difficulties with developing in Brush Park during the 70's, 80's and early 90's. I'm just saying, where is the evidence behind all of these claims? When people trash Detroit about how dangerous and unsafe it is, the statistics are scrutinized to the bone. When it comes to urban renewal, accusations fly all over. | ||
Myers (Myers) Posted From: 216.152.109.166 |
To jmy8....ANY solid evidence would be helpful. My "anecdote" about Mr. Motor Bike was simply implying that he was homeless, and living in one of the structures that was torn down. He now lives in a new one. | ||
Kjwick (Kjwick) Posted From: 141.214.17.5 |
Brasziz, I don't know. I would be very interested in knowing also.... | ||
velma (Velma) Posted From: 68.78.185.176 |
From the Detroit Almanac.... "A typical lot sold for $5000 in the 1880's, and up until about 1910, the homes with multiple chimneys housed much of the city's elite, who were largely Anglo and German Americans. Then, a long decline set in. During the next 30 years, homes were downgraded into boarding houses. The site also felt the impact of the city's large, post 1950 population drop, and the Chrysler and Fisher freeways sliced through the neighborhood. Lofty restoration promises came as part of the city's East Woodward Project in the 1970's, but resulted in little more than landscaping upgrades." | ||
rustic (Rustic) Posted From: 130.132.177.245 |
Myers, perfectly good point, however it is very difficult to get solid facts in what is basically a forensic investigation, however if you are interested a great start is to go to the library and page through old Chronicle, Citizen, Craines and even the DFP and DN articles (although FP and News coverage was spotty at best) on this. Look for cluster arson fires, "drug" shootings, realestate development plans, property assesments, tax deliquencies ... also make sure to read the letters to the editor. (Of course it is easier to do this in real time as an interested and alert member of your community, but anyway ...) Remember, you will NEVER see any full page exposes, but you should be able to add things together as you go. In addition TALKING to people who were there helps, although you have to be careful and have a good ear esp when talking with people who are very emotional. Meyers, also let me suggest once again that you are misreading that story of the woman. Assuming it is true, the woman did NOT have her house almost bulldozed. "Some guy on a bulldozer" told her her house was gonna be demolished soon and even produced a contractor demo list which proved to be either mistaken or false. There is a significant difference. (It like the difference between an elderly homeowner obtaining an official delinquent tax letter from the city vs getting a phone call from someone stating that they are delinquent.) Consider two examples, one historical one hypothetical, McCarthy's "list" of 205 State Dept commies and a protectionist goon mentioning to a store owner that "fires happen" ... the "story" is NOT that 205 commies threatend national security OR that a storeowner almost had a fire, the story is that McCarthy's "list" was made up to emphasize a real or imagined threat to national security and that the store owner is being shaken down for protection $$$. Shit like this has been going on all over Detroit for generations. For example, there is a nice block of mostly wood queen anne duplexes near Clark Park. Well, 20 years ago a community-based investor (phoney, btw) spread a rumor that the destruction of that neighborhood was emminent citing REAL CoD development plans and was willing to buy the properties from the then owners (some of whom owned the properties FREE and CLEAR) and try to "fight city hall" to prevent development. This was a transparent crock of shit and the development reps were lucky to make it out physically unharmed. These same characters eventually, I believe, did obtain some of the properties through other means and attempted old fashioned block busting via renting to "bad" tenants. The block has held on, a bit worse for the wear, but it survives nonetheless. As another example, the fact that Woodbridge is like it is now is strong testament to the dilligence and strength of those who lived in that community in the 70's 80's and 90's. But for all the pressure and shit woodbridge went through, that was nothing compared to what happend in BP. Kjwick, living in a rough neighborhood does not make one immune from human emotional response, to think otherwise is simplistic and prejudicial. (Message edited by rustic on February 04, 2004) (Message edited by rustic on February 04, 2004) (Message edited by rustic on February 04, 2004) | ||
Goat (Goat) Posted From: 64.228.130.159 |
Velma. You have to wonder how many other nice homes were demolished because of the "free"ways? Does anyone have any pics of the area BEFORE the "free"ways were created? | ||
Brian (Brian) Posted From: 68.73.32.235 |
People here want solid proof of the problems in Brush Park when they have been chronicled in the news papers above. But the large problem with that is most don't read more than one newspaper. Yet, when a BS press release about the rehab of the Book Cadillac is played over and over again, it is believed without question. That is very selective. People cannot explain the above nor answer/respond to my questions. So they try to force the wrong doings in Brush Park to be justified. Well as much as Archer caused many of the problems in Brush Park, even he admitted that some of the activities by the city was wrong. That was in part what led to the second developer coming in to build them pricey, cheap ass condos. rustic, you make a good point on Urban Renewal vs Gentrification. Rasputin has made the same correlation. Even though I don't see how anyone could think that gentrification was not a negative. Unless of course they were planning on profiting from the Urban Renewal. Are some of these so called Detroit-Boosters planning to take part in the Urban Renewal? | ||
Myers (Myers) Posted From: 216.152.109.166 |
Thank you for the useful info Rustic. And Brian, since when is 190K pricey? | ||
Gumby (Gumby) Posted From: 141.216.1.4 |
No problem rustic, I realize that nothing on posted to me is a pesonal attack because no one knows me personally. Funny thing about places such as these you can be at each others throats on one thread while making jokes in another. Plus I am a psych. major so I know how to deal with people. lol. Myers 190k is very pricey to the type of people who currently reside in neighborhoods such as Brush Park. Working class and unmployed people, generally don't make enough to cove that much. It isn't pricey if you compare it certain suburbs where it isn't unusual to see houses go in the 500k to 800k range. But lets face it those people are a few years from realizing what a great place Detroit is. | ||
Myers (Myers) Posted From: 216.152.109.162 |
190K ain't pricey when you consider you are living in the 10th largest city in the US. With all the glitz, glamor, and all the great things everyone likes to point out. YAY! Spend, spend!!!! Spend your money in Detroit!! Increase the tax base!!! YAY!! YAY!! | ||
Goat (Goat) Posted From: 64.228.130.159 |
Schitt. I wish I had 190K for a house. For most Detroiters that is an unrealistc goal. That's why I always propose middle-lower income housing for families. With front and back yards. Not condos. What are we rats? | ||
Brasziz (Brasziz) Posted From: 66.2.148.55 |
We are Devo. | ||
jmy (Jmy8) Posted From: 12.75.52.211 |
I defer to rustic on this one and his (or her?) very good post above. It is much easier to do in real time, reading the papers, attending meetings, getting to know people in the neighborhood. More difficult than clicking on a hyperlink, but that's all I've got to work with right now. I'm simply providing information as it was provided to me, as I gathered it on my own, and as I formulated an opinion and set of ideas. I guess that's called experience, for what it's worth. . . . If you're interested, I'll bet that the president of the BP CDC will be at a community meeting or another. I'm sure she'd be happy to fill you in. But, if you're looking for me to scan in some chit that will put all the pieces together, sorry, can't help. I have talked to one of the more successful landlords in BP, and they have a pretty good reputation, but riding out the conditions in BP wasn't easy for them, either. And they had a numer of other properties to bolster the bottom line in BP. And a second job. Remembering when friends and I froze our asses off in front of a derelict Addison Blg., waiting three hours for Archer to show up and push the ceremonial plunger to demolish a hotel that would get the good times rolling in Brush Park. (Anyone remember the name of the hotel?) | ||
Myers (Myers) Posted From: 216.152.109.162 |
Thank you for the honesty jmy8. | ||
Steve (Hamtramck_steve) Posted From: 136.181.195.17 |
It was built as the Detroiter Hotel. Later in life it was Carmel Hall. What was the Detroiter's connection to Detroit gangters? | ||
Goat (Goat) Posted From: 64.228.131.29 |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- By Brasziz (Brasziz) on Wednesday, February 04, 2004 - 3:28 pm: We are Devo. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Right on Brasziz! Right on! | ||
Metrodetguy (Metrodetguy) Posted From: 64.12.96.238 |
Mauser765, 190k in Brush Park is an incredibly reasonable price, especially considering the fact that it is now (and always has been) a prime Downtown location that was artifically undervalued (due to crime, lack of development, etc) in the past. And like I said earlier, it's close to the Wayne County as well as Metro Detroit averages. Consider two other factors as well. One, Detroit homes overall are artifically undervalued. Two, you can't reasonably expect new housing developments to be priced under market averages, can you? | ||
Brasziz (Brasziz) Posted From: 67.72.221.88 |
It's called sticker shock. If you've grown up and seen the cheap-ass valuations that have been hanging on for decades, and then all of a sudden people are talking $190K for nothing fancy, well...WHAM! With what little I know about construction costs I'm thinking that there's not a heckuva lot of profit built into that price. Small houses in my neighborhood built by nonprofits are going for a lot more than that, but you can still pick up old houses for a song. | ||
Andrew In Windsor (Aiw) Posted From: 209.216.150.127 |
Steve, The Detroiter is where radio personality Jerry Buckley was murdered in the lobby as he read his newspaper. Reportedly he was gunned down by the Purple Gang. What do I win? ... lol | ||
Steve (Hamtramck_steve) Posted From: 136.181.195.17 |
My eternal esteem. | ||
Brian (Brian) Posted From: 67.37.84.150 |
Brush Park is an empowerment zone. (Part of the Central Zone.) The city did more of its giveaways to the developer. Thus there is big money to be made. Which non-profits are selling homes for more than $190k? I don't think there are any in Detroit because that would violate many of their agreements they signed when they took their grants and other free money. | ||
Myers (Myers) Posted From: 216.152.109.161 |
The Empowerment Zones help the buyers as well. | ||
Steve (Hamtramck_steve) Posted From: 136.181.195.17 |
Using the handy rule of thumb that the maximum house price you can afford is 3 times your annual salary, you're looking at grossing between $60 and $70 grand a year. While not wealthy, this definitely not "low-income," and I think it's toward the upper end of "moderate-income." | ||
jt1 (Jt1) Posted From: 198.208.223.35 |
Brian - The city did not give away all of the land to the developer. They may get a reduction as they are considered a preferred developer but they still do not have all of the land. There are some challenges that they face in the construction. The primary challenge is the actual land aquisition (sp). They are purchasing the parcels as they are cleared by the city. I believe they would be developing faster (as they are selling as fast as they are built) but they are constrained by getting a parcel of land at a time. One other thing that is costing Crosswinds money is the historic renovations. Almost all of them are being done at a loss. The city made sure that they would renovate some of the old buildings as part of the deal of making them a preferred developer. Side note - I am not affiliated with Crosswinds. | ||
Myers (Myers) Posted From: 216.152.109.161 |
Sounds about right Steve. So a couple each making 30K per year could realistically afford a brand new condo, right downtown, in a major city. Not too bad IMO. | ||
jt1 (Jt1) Posted From: 198.208.223.35 |
The funny thing is that the price isn't what keeps many people from buying homes in the 190K range - many Detroiters make the cash. There are 2 problems that people often face: 1. God Awful credit (Whether the price is 90 or 190 this will kill your chances) 2. Buying 50K Caddys while living in a 80K home. Just drive down Mack and Van Dyke area. People need to get less expensive cars and put more into their homes. Homes appreciate, cars do not. | ||
Myers (Myers) Posted From: 216.152.109.161 |
Oh man....I wouldn't have even said something like that. Good luck. | ||
jmy (Jmy8) Posted From: 12.75.51.30 |
The thread's about Brush Park, so I'll pass on the opening shot. | ||
Goat (Goat) Posted From: 64.228.146.102 |
jt1. That just goes to show your ignorance...go figure as no comments needed! | ||
jt1 (Jt1) Posted From: 198.208.159.14 |
Goat - How does that show my ignorance? Have you ever been in the East Side neighborhoods where the cars in the driveway are worth more than the home? It isn't that uncommon. Have you ever worked in the mortgage industry. I have many friends that do and I hear many stories of people that try to get approved for a mortgage to find out that it is bad to have 2 years worth of outstanding water bills in collection and mortgage payments that are late for 20 straight months. These are people that easily make enough for the homes they are looking at but have suck f'ed up credit that they can't afford shit. I would like some comments. If you dispute that it does I happen I would like to hear your claims and your personal experience or the experiences of the people that you know. Calling someone ignorant without explaining why could be construed as just as ignorant. I am open to hear why a I am wrong, justing waiting for specifics. | ||
Goat (Goat) Posted From: 64.228.146.102 |
Have you ever worked in the mortgage industry. I have many friends that do and I hear many stories of people that try to get approved for a mortgage to find out that it is bad to have 2 years worth of outstanding water bills in collection and mortgage payments that are late for 20 straight months. These are people that easily make enough for the homes they are looking at but have suck f'ed up credit that they can't afford shit. Nothing like painting a WHOLE community with ONE brush. You may also want to look at the practise of selling homes to black folks for more $$, higher interest rates, and just plain telling them. "Thanks, but your not qualified." Take each individual for what they are worht. Not the whole of a people. | ||
jt1 (Jt1) Posted From: 198.208.159.14 |
Goat - I didn't intend to make a blanket claim about entire groups of people or areas. If that's how my post sounded I stand corrected for my lack of proofreading. I meant to state that there are people that fall into this group and that the group that do fit this description by no means are represented by all races, ethnicities, etc. Screwing up when it comes to finances know no color, race or ethnicity. I do agree that minorities are often charged more or do not get the best mortgage rates possible. I believe that both the real estate and mortgage industry are trying to clean up these shady practices but they do still exist. My intent was not what would be inferred from my post. Bad credit and bad financial decisions are common across all colors, races and ethnicities. | ||
jmy (Jmy8) Posted From: 12.75.52.121 |
Okay, I'll join the party. You make some assumptions here and the logic is off: Someone has to have a least decent credit to get a 50K car. Even with low interest rates and an incentive for dealers to sell cars, I doubt you'll get a 50K Caddy with 20 late mortagage payments or two years' worth of unpaid water bills. And, if your priorities include driving a 50K car, What's wrong with owning an 80K house? If one has an 80K house and a 50K car, they have 130K in assets. Not too shabby by my measuring stick. Not 190K, but Why is 190K the benchmark? Your conflation of car and home ownership can have only one conclusion: If you own a 190K home, you cannot own a 50K car, and I'm sure there are examples to the contrary. So, if it wasn't a blanket statement, you need to provide evidence. Your story about friends in the mortgage industry doesn't convince me. Why should people in Detroit (or anywhere) spend their money as you see fit? If I wanted to own a 100K car and a 30K house, I'm allowed to do that. | ||
Drew (Drew) Posted From: 68.40.39.222 |
I know Mel Farr went under because he took advantage of the system and gave credit to people who would never be able to keep up with the car payments in the long run. Mel ulitmately took a nose dive because of it and is a shell of his former self as a result. But that was millions of dollars and bunches of cars and trucks later. There are a lot more sneaky ways to establish credit for a car than for a home. | ||
jt1 (Jt1) Posted From: 198.208.159.14 |
Mel also installed some shady equipment on the cars to halt the engine (or prevent them from starting) if people were behind on payments. I believe that this tactic was ruled illegal as there were potential safety problems with the way the device disengaged the engine. Don't know what ever came of that. Mel Farr got people into cars (their fault for doing it) that were probably above their means. It is a lot easier to make a car loan work than a mortgage. JMY8 - I do not wish to tell people how to spend their money. If they earn it they can do what they will with it. In the long run it makes much more sense spending money on a house that will appreciate as opposed to a car that will depreciate. Some of us and some of our families live in homes that are beyond the 3:1 ratio because of higher down payments from money earned on previous homes. The point of owning a home as opposed to renting is that you build equity, the home appreciates and after time and a few houses you are much closer to your dream house. I am not telling people how to spend their money - I am simply stating what is more logical when it comes to long term financial health. I don't know what you want as evidence - and I dont think that anything I write here will convince you. Just drive around for awhile. My interest in it is that the wiser people are about their investments, payments etc leads to more disposable income in the city, which, if spent in the city helps everyone. To each their own. | ||
jt1 (Jt1) Posted From: 198.208.159.14 |
Mel also installed some shady equipment on the cars to halt the engine (or prevent them from starting) if people were behind on payments. I believe that this tactic was ruled illegal as there were potential safety problems with the way the device disengaged the engine. Don't know what ever came of that. Mel Farr got people into cars (their fault for doing it) that were probably above their means. It is a lot easier to make a car loan work than a mortgage. JMY8 - I do not wish to tell people how to spend their money. If they earn it they can do what they will with it. In the long run it makes much more sense spending money on a house that will appreciate as opposed to a car that will depreciate. Some of us and some of our families live in homes that are beyond the 3:1 ratio because of higher down payments from money earned on previous homes. The point of owning a home as opposed to renting is that you build equity, the home appreciates and after time and a few houses you are much closer to your dream house. I am not telling people how to spend their money - I am simply stating what is more logical when it comes to long term financial health. I don't know what you want as evidence - and I dont think that anything I write here will convince you. Just drive around for awhile. My interest in it is that the wiser people are about their investments, payments etc leads to more disposable income in the city, which, if spent in the city helps everyone. To each their own. | ||
Goat (Goat) Posted From: 64.228.128.76 |
Thanks for the clarification jt1. At least you are a no nonsense person that can talk without innuendoes, sarcasm... And you ar right about Mel Farr intalling the device on engines. Does anyone know whatever happened with that? | ||
rustic (Rustic) Posted From: 130.132.177.245 |
Suggestion: don't fall for distracting diversions. let's keep this GREAT thread on point. i figure rhetoric will heat up to get this thread to flame out. don't fall for it. i'm not saying this is a deliberate tactic, it may simply be an ingrained reaction (when confronted with difficult situations to embrace uglier and uglier stereotypes) or it may be deliberate (there are plenty of people who have an interest in painting a smiley face on BP redevelopment). either way don't feed the troll(s). let's keep this great thread alive ... remember what happened to the series of Briggs/NorthCorkown threads a few months ago, it got to the point where ENTIRE threads were removed and those that remained had so much excised that they don't make much sense in the archives. | ||
Goat (Goat) Posted From: 64.228.128.76 |
Agreed rustic. That is why jt1 and myself came to a conclusion. Real people with open minds | ||
jt1 (Jt1) Posted From: 198.208.159.14 |
Sorry about the misunderstandings and the hi-jackings. I will exit stage left as I have no real knowledge of what has and hasn't transpired in Brush Park. | ||
jmy (Jmy8) Posted From: 63.148.123.128 |
Well, as much as spending something like $600 a night on a hotel room is beyond the means of just about anyone living in Brush Park (hell, just about anyone at all) the Winder Street bed and breakfast/ hotel is a really fine renovation. Took a tour of it way before completion, about a year and a half, two years, ago and was amazed by the place even in its very raw form. Very hard to wrap your mind around living in such a huge place when it was originally a single-family residence. Remember when the previous owner owned it and had a handpainted sign attached to the front fence, something like: THIS BUILDING NOT FOR SALE FOR EVEN A MILLION DOLLARS! Guess he finally sold, for whatever reason. . . . Anyone know any more? Reminds me of the book. . . . _Observatory Mansion_, I think. An okay read. Oh, and I don't dispute that a house is a better investment than a car. It was certain assumptions. | ||
Brian (Brian) Posted From: 67.37.84.52 |
http://www.detnews.com/2004/metro/0402/07/b01-57120.htm
| ||
_ (Mauser765) Posted From: 206.148.224.6 |
Hey - logistical question here: where does Brush Park end heading northward ? Does it terminate at Mack with Mr. Kahns house ? If so, I am wondering what is the name of the neighborhood that corresponds with Brush Park on the other side of the medical center, behind CCS and DIA. This neighborhood looks like it goes all the way up to Milwaukee Junction. It is not as fancy as Brush Park, but it comes close with some houses - including most of Ferry Street which is still largelyintact. I call it "brush park minor" for lack of a better description. When I was at CCS most of this area was ghetto prairie, but now its filled in with quite a bit of new low income housing. (between East Kirby and I-94). Is this type of newbuild low-income housing making its way south into Brush Park? Are they going to put new construction between the old structures in BP? It seems like they will have to eventually build in between, but I can see developers not wanting new/construction low/income next to very expensive restored lofts and apartments. But theres so much wasted land area everywhere in the city, if they could just concentrate on one section at a time - and FINISH what they start. I dont know, but all that new construction around Ferry Street and John R is very encouraging. It aint gonna win no architecture awards anytime soon, but look how many people they got living in that area now. Take the development all the way south to the stadiums. Then use some of that woodward revitalization cash to revamp the WW corridor, so these folks have places to shop (and a few more jobs too)right on the main drag. Like back in the day. Demand a Renaissance Zone expansion from the Feds and do it all in one fell swoop. I share the excitement over any attempted revitalization of Downtown or CBD, but I think the real change will come as a result of revitalizing the neglected neighborhoods. Big mirror buildings are cool, but I think that major urban housing and neighborhood redevelopment will pull more companies, employers and captial into Detroit and Michigan than anything else. | ||
jmy (Jmy8) Posted From: 12.75.52.101 |
Just ran through the area around CCS mauser mentions. The are aroung the park just calls itself Peck Park, which just got a 500K facelift this summer (former home to Peck Pool). Lots of nice houses through there, Warren-ish to Hendrie, Brush to St. Antione. Around Golightly the are some hidden monsters that rival Brush Park. North of 94/ Medbury has recently been built up. Genesis development? among others. | ||
Andrew In Windsor (Aiw) Posted From: 64.228.129.79 |
Mauser, I've always considered Mack & AK's House to be the northern terminus of Brush Park. I may not be right, but that always been th limit in my head. | ||
_ (Mauser765) Posted From: 206.148.224.221 |
ah, someone on another thread gave me the map I was looking for. The neighborhood that I asked about which is north of Brush Park and the Medical Center is called 'Art Center'. This is the area behind CCS and the DIA, and follows Brush and John R up to Milwaukee Junction.(I-94 actually divides) The CCS dorm/apartment on E. Kirby is the old Art Center apartment building. | ||
jmy (Jmy8) Posted From: 12.75.52.235 |
Ah, yes, Art Center. Thanks for the reminder. | ||
English (English) Posted From: 205.188.209.80 |
Brian's post was a case in point. I could not believe what I was reading in that sidebar about $80K homes and $50K cars... full of assumptions! Why all the doublespeak? Let's be honest here, and call out the pink elephant in the room. First of all, homes don't ALWAYS appreciate. My grandparents lived in the house that was pictured with a tank in front of it in LIFE magazine during the Detroit riots. They purchased that home around 1959 for MORE than it was sold for in 1999. They LOST money on the house because it was appraised for even less than they purchased it for. The same thing happened to the house that my great-grandfather built with his own hands down in St. Petersburg in the 20's... it's in a drug-infested and hellish neighborhood. I posted about an article about this before. It was in the August 2003 edition of Crisis magazine. It's not available online; your local library should have it. Anyway, it cited research that proves the average black American homeowner, over the past 30-year mortgage period, did NOT make the amount of money on their home that the average white American homeowner of the same socioeconomic class did. This was of course due to the neighborhoods they were ABLE to purchase in going down due to a whole host of factors. It's really a no-brainer when one thinks about it. And don't even get me started on what happened to the generation BEFORE my grandparents. Shall I speak about my grandfather and great-uncle's radio repair shop that was (oops!) razed to make way for I-75, or my great-grandfather's home and store that was burned down in Alabama? And my great-great grandparents were slaves. There are real reasons *why* black Americans are a step behind, and it *certainly* as if parity has ever been achieved in the housing market. In fact, the black community has never really been left alone in the 140 years since slavery ended. So yeah, let's talk about the systemic factors that undermined black attempts all over the nation to build viable homes and neighborhoods over the past 150 years. First lynchings and intimidation, then urban planning that just (oops again!) happened to displace black neighborhoods, then the drug trade that just happened to have its epicenter in urban black communities. Let's talk about *that*. Or... maybe let's not. Let's just sit up here and insinuate that black Detroiters all have bad credit, and in doing so, insinuate that this makes them worthy of takeover and the building of homes that this young native Detroiter can't afford even with a couple of college degrees. Given those kinds of odds, I think I'd rather have my Cadillac Escalade too. No telling if that *house* is going to be around or worth anything 30 years from now. Spare me the judgment, please. Back to your regularly scheduled programming. | ||
English (English) Posted From: 205.188.209.80 |
And yes, I know perfectly well that the thread is about BP. I just couldn't let the insinuations and stereotypes go without responding. Again, back to the topic at hand. I did want to say that I've learned a lot especially from jmy8 and rustic about the recent history of the Brush Park neighborhood, and have followed this thread silently (as I've been following a lot of threads silently on the forum lately). | ||
Brian (Brian) Posted From: 67.37.83.7 |
Its exactly on point for this thread and the subject. Good Post. | ||
Patrick (Patrick) Posted From: 68.73.198.39 |
"if you build, they will come" doesn't always mean much in some places. In this case, it's Brush Park. Who are the developers "building" for? Who is the target market? | ||
Rasputin (Rasputin) Posted From: 152.163.253.67 |
Excellent posts, English & Brian ..... and Ron was definitely on point with his article, as more hanky-panky is being exposed daily regarding the "Take-Over" of Brush Park. -rustic- it appears that you have the real history of BP .... that area has been a battleground since the Land Value Taxation study was published; which stated the land value of BP was the highest in the City of Detroit. Go Figure .... and btw: In addition to being a writer, Ron Seigel has been dealing with Housing Advocacy and Development in this area for the past 40 years. He's not a novice, just expressing an opinion, regarding this issue. Black-atcha ..... | ||
dove-7 (Dove7) Posted From: 24.7.93.239 |
Whew, didn't know this post went this far back in date. But it looks like there's been some recent postings. Brian and others on here make some very strong points on here. These points are the same points that I had made sometime back. But what I stated back then was how people on here, suburbs and non Detroitors will pitch a Bi#tch when a so called historical building is about to come down. No one doesn't care about these buildings collecting dust until they make the news. Suddenle we have protest. Funny thing too, when I too had challenged many on here awhile back regarding the neighborhoods vs the historical buildings, I got the exact same feedback like Brian has been getting. For those think that Brian's talking b.s., come here to San Francisco and Oakland. Here's you'll see Brian's point confirmed. The South side of Frisco, the ghetto side, is being torn into for the exact samething like what had happened to B.P. My cousin lived there before she moved back near L.A. She told me how the corporate co. are moving and setting up shop right in the ghetto, and these Niggas over here are going to be kicked out. She's right. I saw the city laying brand new tracks for there Muni trains for the first time ever in the Ghetto. What's even eiree is to see these brand new office builds that are coming up right after one another in these areas. This part of the town makes me think of the suburbs and there office buildings. Different setup from the San Francisco business district. I met a homeless guy from Pontiac. He was living homeless right that area, but more towards the water/ bay. He told me the many scandles that the city, mayor and mob had and have been doing in that area. Pusshing people out by rebuilding new business on contaminated soils..People on here are in such denials of the realities that really do exist. We believe what we want to believe because is so safe to believe in what's safe for us. That is until it hits home. Something like a 911. BTW, samething is happening in the ghettos of Oakland. They raise the property taxes making harder for those who live in these areas to afford the homes that they live in, thus forcing them to relocate. The way that they planned it. | ||
jmy (Jmy8) Posted From: 12.75.52.206 |
Welcome "back" English. Nice post. | ||
Brian (Brian) Posted From: 67.37.83.54 |
All over the country urban renewal is in full force. There are those in Detroit who want to keep as many Black folks out of the CBD and as far away as possible. Just like they do in Chicago and many other cities in the country. The problem is that here in Detroit, Blacks have more political power and it makes it more difficult to carry out the racist plans. | ||
Pro (Danny) Posted From: 141.217.234.199 |
Brian, Blacks in Detroit may have political control of all city services, but sooner of later. They will be under control by a higher authority. And that will be the Illitches, the Fords, and the Karmonos. All thanks to Dennis Archer with his E-Zone plan to gentrificate and diversified the city. Starting with downtown and working their way up to slummy Black ghettos, slowly pushing them out, including the proletarians. | ||
Brian (Brian) Posted From: 67.37.83.133 |
Pro, contol is a funny thing. Right now it equates with money. So in part your statement is true today. Kilpatrick is under the control of the Regional Chamber who put him in office. (AS they did with Archer.) They don't want to gentrify the entire city, they want Black folks to occupy a specific area much like its been shown that Black folks occupy in Atlanta. | ||
Brian (Brian) Posted From: 68.73.32.119 |
I just watched a program where Lawnside New Jersey rehabed some of their historical homes. Bldgs that were by some accounts 'beyond repair'. But it was historically significant to the town and its people and thus they made it happen. This illustrates my point about the pseudo-preservationists and their choosing their battles. Either they assume to be defeated half of the time, or they don't know what they are doing or they are not true perservationists. Brush Park is just as important to the history of Detroit as is the BC and ML. In fact, many of the homes in Brush Park are older than both of those bldgs. Yet, read above and you will see those people and orgs pushing the BC, MCS, and ML projects while at the same time supporting the gentrification of Brush Park. I call it playing god. Trying to reshape Detroit in their image. Attempting to assist parties like the Regional Chamber in the attempts to keep Black families away from the Detroit CBD. Using the notion of preservation to get millions in tax dollars to subsidize a overpriced project like the BC and MCS. Lying to folks about their neighborhoods to prevent too much investigative news into what is going on. But the saddest thing is none of these groups have money. They rely solely on the political favors of others which means they are extensions of the mayors office and the Regional Chamber. IF you doubt this, connect the dots. |
