  BV (Bvos) Posted From: 68.252.2.194 |
This thread is to continue a conversation about shopping in the Grandmont and Rosedale Park neighborhoods on Grand River and Fenkell near the Southfield Fwy. It came about in the thread about Mr. Hooks' newly renovated Metro Foodland store. Some say the thread was hijacked, I say we discussed a slightly different yet related topic. Anyways please feel free to share any history or memories about shopping on Grand River between Evergreen and Greenfield and/or Fenkell near the Southfield Freeway. Feel free to discuss the history of churches in the area as well (although this may become a thread by itself). | ||
BV (Bvos) Posted From: 68.252.2.194 |
I forgot to mention that this is the Crary/St. Mary's neighborhood as well. Here's the link to the thread this came out of: https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/messages/5/19996.html?1076489286 | ||
jjaba (Jjaba) Posted From: 24.20.158.146 |
Next door to Montgomery Wards Grand River-Greenfield huge corner store was Crowley-Milners. In 1964, jjaba worked in the shoe dept. It was another store front East of our main store with a pass-through archway to the main store. Mr Manko was the manager and a rough guy for whom to work. But he could glide like a peacock on the selling floor and make many a woman feel special. We sold women's only. All of the store money was in a shoe box and only Manko knew which box it was in. He changed it daily. jjaba was in graduate school at WSU and was a stocker. Two huge walls of shoe boxes had to be maintained and it was one hell of a chore. When we got in new lines, we had to circulate the inventory to get room. In 1961, jjaba also was a checker at Wrigley's Supermarket on Greenfield, just South of Grand River. He ate at Big Boys, having the Combination for 79 cents at lunch. jjaba also worked the dairy cases being excited to take a schpritz of whipped cream in the new aerosol cans and putting them back on the shelf. Just be sure lips don't touch the cannister. jjaba, old Westsider from the 1940s. | ||
oldrdfordette (Oldredfordette) Posted From: 68.61.98.133 |
I worked at the Kresge's at Fenkell and Grand River. I remembe when the Detroit Police Band "The Blue Pigs" came to play a concert in the parking lot when they opened one of those little police stations at the mall. Five cars were stolen! I used to go to Jordans and the Carrtwheel. And the Medium, down by Lahser, on the block next to Alberts Hamburgers. | ||
oldrdfordette (Oldredfordette) Posted From: 68.61.98.133 |
Jeez, I nearly forgot. The Medium is where I met my husband! | ||
65memories (65memories) Posted From: 68.73.200.33 |
BV... I want to thank you, Rustic and jjaba for the Grand River/Fenkell memories. I've lived in Rosedale Park for 27 years and remember many of the landmarks. Crigers, Jordans, Bar-thoms and Marias were favorite places (If I remember correctly, the FBI even did an undercover surveillance of some regular morning Criger patrons/politicians, wiretapping their table. Anyone remember?). I'm glad for Mr. Hooks and Foodland...the renovation looks great. I'm hoping for success with newer establishments like Java in the Park and the UPS store, both on GR and the new fish store, Fishers, down the street. Someone mentioned the Hallmark store at Grandland...it recently closed without notice. Does anyone know the status? Anyway, thanks for the memories. | ||
BV (Bvos) Posted From: 68.252.2.194 |
Angie's Hallmark has been closed for about 9 months or so. They apparently got into some legal/financial trouble with the landlord. It took about 6 months of legal wrangling to get things settled. I saw some folks working and clearing out the space a few nights ago. A nail salon (unfortunately) is going in. It seems like lately for every good business we get, we get a crappy one like a nail salon or beauty supply. Anyone know the location of where Kresge's, Cartwheel, Barthoms and other places? I know Crigers was knocked over to make that Botsford Medical clinic. It would be neat to hear some stories about the FBI wiretapping at Crigers. Redfordette, I enjoyed your story about the Blue Pigs and the cars getting stolen. Only in Detroit! | ||
rustic (Rustic) Posted From: 130.132.177.245 |
BV, Describing 70's-80's (again all from memory and ~700 miles away so I may be wrong here and there). Cartwheel Bar was on the north side of Grand River between Bretton and Kentford 3 doors down from SunYa's chineese restaurant (there was SunYa (owners Chens or Changs(?) used to have some of the waiters live in the apts above, if memory serves), a tailor shop, and an empty storefront that was the News/freeppress distribution outlet for paperboys (accessed from the rear) and then the Cartwheel Bar). Cartwheel had gravel lot parking next to it that you had to enter from the alley. Cartwheel closed ~ 82 or so (?) and reopened briefly as something else, closed again and reopened as Norm's (?) in the late 80's (?). Cartwheel and Jordan's attracted a younger crowd than Bartoms Dooleys or the Grandway Bars (more on these later)) (All of these "original" bars, with the expection of Jordans at the end of it's run were 1000% white even as the surrounding neighborhood "changed" into majority black residents. The new bar(s) replacing Cartwheel were ~99% black. Continuing west down the block there was a small C-shaped 2 story 1960's style office building (with a larger second story cantilevered above on stilts with a tiny central courtyard (not sure if it was used for parking or not)) that had medical/dental and travel office that sort of thing in it. Next door was a big Singer (sewing machine) store (I think it was on that block tho it may be the next one). Some of these buildings have been torn down, I think, for the Hollywood video. Next came a nice brick building that is now the Rosedale Aquarium. I remember it as empty til the mid 70's (before that maybe a Pepperidge Farm store (although that does make any sense, but that's what I recall) and then there was a music shop ("Brand New Key"? instruments, sheet music lessons) which opened about the same time GRinells closed their store on the other side of southfield (more on that later ...). That Music shop closed about ~80 or so (?) and I think the Aquarium store went into the space almost immediately (?). Fife and Drum party rentals and a kinda 40's modern looking Barbershop with a big plateglass window (now a subway) rounded out the block. Next to that was an empty lot (that empty lot has an interesting story re blockbusting but that is another thread ...). | ||
BV (Bvos) Posted From: 68.252.2.194 |
The Hollywood took out that horseshoe shaped building. There are two buildings to the east (right) of Rosedale Aquarium still standing. The one directly to the right is a one story glass building (formerly a vacuum store in the late 90s, early 00s) and a two story brick building (now has "Babes & Braids" sign). Everything between the Babes & Braids building and Norms/Sun Ya was demoed for the Hollywood. Look forward to getting those "more on that later" filled in. | ||
rustic (Rustic) Posted From: 130.132.177.245 |
BV, If I could drive by I'm sure I'd remember things better. Sounds like I'm forgetting a building or two on that block. Kresgee's was in Grandland and took up ~50% of the strip of the stripmall part of grandland between Hallmarks and Sibley's. Around 80-85 or so the store significantly reduced it's store stock (same thing happened ~5 years earlier to the Kresgee's At GR/Greenfield and ~5 years later @ Kresgees @ northland) and stopped maintaining it as well as they had been (btw this was SOP of metro-Detroit retail as surrounding neighborhoods "changed", maybe the same thing is still happening in Southfield, Farmington Hills, West Bloomfield, etc. I don't know)). It was a medium-sized 1 story Kresgee's that had a lunchoenette with seating in the frot corner next to the hallmark (there may even have been a separate door for the luncheonette at one time but I don't remember using it). I THINK it closed b4 all Kresgees closed but I am not sure ... anyway it eventually became a McCrory's in a portion of the original space but that closed too. Bartoms was on the North side of Grand River between Warwick and Outer Drive. It was about 4 doors down from Outer Drive, it had hip 60's laced brickwork (which I recall was still there in the mid 90s) and had a cool looking logo. It seemed to me to be more of a quiet scotch-on-the-rocks bar you would find in a white collar community than an irish beer joint (Dooleys) or the shot-and-a-beer old man Grandway Bar further down GR, but I may be mistaken, by the time I was of drinking age in the 80's it had long closed. It had parking around back in the alley and I'll bet that only the mailman used the front door (in fact it had the same sort of setup as The Woodward did/does(?) on WW and Grand Blvd, but Bartoms was smaller and I don't think it was a gay bar ... but hey you never know with Detroit's discrete gay community esp back then ...). Through the 80s it went through various incarnations tho I don't think is was ever a bar or restaurant again. Creegar's was in a grey brick building on the SE corner of GR and OD. It had parking on the side and behind. There was usually a waiting list on the weekends. I understand it was a hangout for Det politicos and cohorts (legal and quasilegal) from the days of the Kavagnaugh administration or maybe before so the FBI story sounds reasonable. It closed in the early 80's and was torn down and replaced by that small clinic. Other restaurants on that very block included, Marias on the north side of the middle of the block (just past rosedale hardware) (opened ~72 or so as a take out pizza place but expanded into a sit down restaurant by the early 80's). Eventually boxing's Emanuael Stewart bought into the place and it eventually reopened with his name. It closed by the early 90's. no idea that is there now. Chuck Place (Steak) on the other side of Rosedale Hardware became Vicky's Steak in the 80s (?). Little Ceasars had a sit down restaurant in the mid 70's to the mid 80's in the building where there is a LC carry out place is now. That building used to have a neat little gourmet food grocery called Rem's Gourmet that closed in the early 70's. There was/is in IHOP in the South side of GR one block west and there ws a dunkin donuts (now elias donuts I think?) also in the south side of GR somewhere between warwick and OD. I'll stick with GR west of Southfield b4 I tackle east of southfield and the other streets in the shopping area (Fenkell, Southfield, McNicholls). This is fun! But I feel like an old fart! | ||
Pro (Danny) Posted From: 207.74.110.121 |
The Norwest Theatre was my favorite hang out spot back in the 1980s. | ||
BV (Bvos) Posted From: 68.252.2.194 |
Sadly the Norwest is planned to be demolished. The owner, Robert Sloan, tells me that he is working on a deal with a dual fast food restaurant with a drive through to take over the spot. I'm guessing Dunkin Dounuts/Baskin Robbins. Anyways it will be a great loss to the neighborhood. Unfortunately the building doesn't have much use today. It is too small for today's multi-plex movie theaters and it's not designed in a way that it can easily be converted into a live theater venue. | ||
65memories (65memories) Posted From: 198.109.0.136 |
Dang, Rustic, you've got a great memory! The steak place was called Chuck Joseph's. Maria's is now a beauty supply (i'm in tune with BV's feelings on salons and nail places taking over the city). You're right...Bar-Thoms was a small scotch and soda place...not a gay bar (at least not that I knew). It was really too small and if you weren't a regular, you sometimes felt excluded. Cregar's (I'll get the spelling correct yet) was over-priced, but it was close, comfortable. | ||
BV (Bvos) Posted From: 68.252.2.194 |
65, You might be able to confirm that Bartoms is now Clubdot.com (or club dot dot com as I like to say!) which would be a few doors west of the hideous pink beauty supply store that used to be Maria's. Don't know much about Clubdot.com other than it isn't open very often. Maria's moved to Ferndale a few years ago and is still in Ferndale. Vicki's Steak is now REMS Real Estate. The owner is a nice guy, but a nice sit down restaurant would be better especially if it served steak! | ||
65memories (65memories) Posted From: 68.249.8.174 |
BV... You're right. Bar-thoms is now Clubdot.com. I've never been in there since the name change. Questions: Wasn't the coney island on the corner of Southfield and GR once a Daly's Restaurant? (Or was it some other chain?) And what is the status of the short-lived Rosedale Cafe up near Evergreen and GR? | ||
rustic (Rustic) Posted From: 68.167.65.76 |
65, you are correct about it being a chain, but the diner @ gr fenkell was a Biff's, it had a cool gaudy neon sign that spelled out Biff's in cursive, a neat counterpoint to Norwest theater's swooping arrow a few blocks away. Daly's was a mile west @ Burt rd and useta have carhops back in the ancient tymes. Back then 'coney islands' were not such a 'tradition', lol @ changing tastes and standards! | ||
Goggo (Goggo) Posted From: 68.73.21.103 |
Kinda-sorta related: I vividly remember going with my sister to pick up her new '73 Cougar from Stu Evans on Grand River. It was dark green metallic/white vinyl top/light green interior with fake spoke wheels... a girl-car... but at least she went for the 351C and C-6. The sun was coming up and casting long shadows along Grand River and the smell of her new car was intoxicating (later, unbeknownst to us, literally). | ||
65memories (65memories) Posted From: 68.74.30.252 |
Rustic... thanks. It was a Biff's and open 24 hours if I remember. I spent some late-night coffee drinkin' sessions there after a round or two at Diamond Jim Brady's (7 Mile/Greenfield). | ||
evelethcdenver (Evelethcdenver) Posted From: 67.42.246.208 |
Wow,talk about memory lane. I grew up in Rosedale Park and when I was 14, I started working at Special Way Market on the corner or GR & OD. My boss bought an old bar on GR, about four or five businesses away. Used to keep extra beer and pop in that bar for Special Way. Also remember my parents taking us to the Little Caesars at Warwick and GR when they had the restaurant attached. | ||
jjaba (Jjaba) Posted From: 24.20.158.146 |
Who remembers Wrigley's at Greenfield and Grand River? I worked as a cashier there for 80 cents/hr. in 1961. Was it true that they had a black conveyer belt to ferry groceries from the store out to the parking lot in plastic bins? Seems like I remember a system like that where customers pulled their cars up and were loaded in by a clerk outside. jjaba | ||
BV (Bvos) Posted From: 68.73.194.69 |
The Rosedale Cafe building has sat vacant for several years after the restaurant lasted for about 3 months. I never made it into the restaurant (it was so short lived) but folks I know who did go said the food was way over priced. It was buffet style, but the prices were sit-down. It is rumored that the owner somehow got mixed up with drugs and the building isn't selling because it's mixed up with the DEA, etc. This isn't true as the Asst. US Attorney recently check on the status of the building for us. The problem with the building is that it is up for sale at 3 times the price of any other building in the area. No one knows why they are asking so much for a building with no parking. Does anyone remember where the car dealerships were on Grand River? I know Dean Sellers was on the corner of G.R. and Rutland where Arrow Office Supply is now (the brown and yellow building). Where was Stu Evans? Does anyone have any pictures of Grand River back in the day? | ||
Goat (Goat) Posted From: 64.228.134.220 |
"Was it true that they had a black conveyer belt to ferry groceries from the store out to the parking lot in plastic bins?" There was an A&P that used to do that in Windsor. Very odd. Very confusing. And it took a lot longer to load your groceries. It certainly was a silly idea. | ||
rustic (Rustic) Posted From: 130.132.20.193 |
jjaba, was wrigleys on Greenfield a bit SOUTH of GR? IF so I remember it as a Chathams but mayve the name changed by the 70s. jjaba, 2 ?s 4 u and anyone else: (i) do you remember what was where grandland is now? Grandland looks to be about circa 1960 and much of the housing in that area is 1920-40. What usedta be there? (ii) do you remember any of the OLD big wood houses along GR that seemed to predate the NW expansion of Detroit? There usedta be one on the north side of the street about 3 blocks west of Greenfield (a block east of Forrer or so?). It looked to my young eyes to be ~1880's or maybe older and had a slate roof, lightning rods all that. It was torn down in the 70's (it was a dump, btw) for a parking lot for a Burger King. I'll bet there were several of these along GR well into the 1960's as much of the commercial construction is relatively new (~1950's-1960s). | ||
rustic (Rustic) Posted From: 130.132.177.245 |
BV, re car dealerships (this is all circa 70's and most everything closed/moved by the late 70's early 80's ... typically the life cycle went like this Dealership moved to the burbs or closed, lots became briefly used car lots only (late 70's - mid 80s), repair buildings were torn down for fast food place etc. (80's), the used car lots eventually closed and gas station/convenience stores or fast food went in (80-90's). Dean Sellars Ford was on the NORTH side of GR a block or two east of where rutland hit GR and took up much if not all of the block. Rosedale Olds was on the South side or GR just west of Edison school and just had a slick store front showroom on GR with the lot hidden around the rear (Thats why there is such a huge empty lot back there nowadays, btw). There was another GM dealership (I think 1 block west of Dean Sellars) but I may be mistaken ... wendy's is where their used car lot was (I think). Porterfield Wilson had a Pontiac Dealership on the north side of GR a couple of blocks west of Greenfield in a cool older red brick building (tho it may have just been a used car dealership as his main lot was on Livernois I believe). Unless I am badly mistaken Stu Evans Lincoln Mercury was on GR and Evergreen and that dealership was bisected by evergreen. The showroom was on one side of the street and the lot was on the other. The lot is where the new whitecastle went in and the repair shop was torn down to build murrays auto parts in the 80's. There were additional dealers further west on GR up to burt rd and on Greenfield as well south of GR. | ||
oldrdfordette (Oldredfordette) Posted From: 68.61.98.133 |
My dad used to go to Bar-Thoms. I forgot about that place. Remember the Sno-White restaurant? | ||
jjaba (Jjaba) Posted From: 24.20.158.146 |
BVs comments, "it was cafeteria style but the prices were sit-down" is a Forum jewel. Pure Detroit. BV, you win the writing contest for the day. Yes, Wrigley's was South of Grand River on Greenfield, Eastside of street. It could have become a Chatham Mkt. What's there now? The Northland Kroger's store which I believe is now JC Penny's had a conveyer system also. It was slick. Why trudge through a huge parking lot with the carts in a foot of snow or in a July thundersorm? Carts didn't leave the store. Your groceries were packed in big grey plastic containers like you'd see on an assembly line (little Detroit metaphor for youse guys). You drove the car up and the bag boy loaded you up. Tip him a quarter and sashee' on home with yo bad se'f and da kids. jjaba can't answer all those questions about Rosedale. He worked on Grand River and Greenfield, that's all, living on Northlawn and Schoolcraft or at Sussex and W. Seven Mile. All's he knew was Jews didn't live around there and it was a very nice neighborhood. Is the Big Boy still on Grand River W. of Greenfield? jjaba ate there for lunch time, 79 cents for a Brawny Lad or Big Boy combo, both hardly Glatt Kosher but mom wasn't there to watch me fress down. jjaba, Yiddischekeit on the Westside. | ||
65memories (65memories) Posted From: 68.73.53.17 |
jjaba maybe can't answer all the Rosedale Park questions, but he sure can answer alot of them. Thanks, jjaba. P.S. No the Big Boy is not there. I don't remember it. Where was it? 65memories | ||
jjaba (Jjaba) Posted From: 24.20.158.146 |
65, the Big Boys was on the Southside of Grand River, just W. of Greenfield. It had a huge Big Boy sign and a big plate glass window if I recall. A very 1950s building. jjaba appreciates the nice comments. Second only to a corned beef and russian dressing on rye at Boeskys, the Big Boy is my favorite. Everybody who loves Big Boys, stand up. jjaba, Westsider, eating Big Boys since the 1950s. | ||
BV (Bvos) Posted From: 68.73.194.69 |
jjaba, I'm not sure where the Big Boys would be on G.R. today. There isn't a "Big Boy looking" building in that area. It might have been demolished when those strip malls were put in on the northwest and southwest corners of G.R. and Greenfield. I sure wish there was a Big Boys in the neighborhood. Nothing like a Big Boy with fries and a milk shake. That's a Detroit classic! | ||
jjaba (Jjaba) Posted From: 24.20.158.146 |
BV is probably right. jjaba will have to take a run over there to see what's become of his Big Boy on GR and Greenfield. As mitigation, jjaba reminds BV that there are over 900 Big Boys extant. This includes them in Japan & Saudi Arabia just in case you are there and jonesing for a Big Boy. Their offices are still in Warren, Michigan. In addition to Elias, Big Boys are run by Shoneys, Frishes, Bobs, Vips, Kips, Azars, Yodas, Lendys, Eat N Park, Elbys and Manners. They've been around for 67 yrs., since 1937. The first one seems to be a 10-stool drive-in called Dixie at 10 Mile and Telegraph. The Elias Bros. were Louis, Fred and John, with sister Mary Elias Kassab central to the business. As a p.s., jjaba is just back from India where he had the Big Maharajah at Mc Donalds. (Even there, "you vant fries wi-dit?") jjaba | ||
rustic (Rustic) Posted From: 130.132.177.245 |
BV, big boys was on GR on the SW corner of the intersection w greenfield but it was a bit west of the actual intersection. It had parking in the back that you accessed from Greenfield OR the side street offa GR but was a "modern" one that, I think, didn't have carhops (some big boys had car hops well into the 70's I recall). That corner had a jewelery store and I think a nice fancy hughes and hatcher (see the old GR/Greenfield Thread for specifics). Back to GR/Fenkell, since I ate a late lunch today I'm thinking about restaurants. White Castle was at fenkell and southfield (NE corner) where KFC is now. (My mother has a brochure from White castle from when she was a kid in the 30's that lists all WC location and lists that one, so it was there in the early days.) Across Sotuhfield was Biff's. A block east on fenkell was Arthur Treachers Fish and Chips. There was a diner type restaurant on Rutland and GR (NE corner) that closed in ~74 and reopened briefly as a regular restaurant and then became, I think, the first black barbershop on GR west of Greenfield (there had been a barbershop in the same building immediately behind the restaurant prior to this). ~74 the middle of the block on the N side of GR between Southfield and Archdale was torn down (I think there was a jewelery store there b4 that) and a cafeteria style steak house (Rustler) went in that did business for 20years under various names. SunYa chineese on GR and bretton (still there but it usedta have seating red silk and black vinyl booths) now I think it is a carry out only place but I may be wrong. Next block west on GR was Joey's Paddock (next to the IBEW(?) union hall): Roast Beef sandwiches, good cheesburgers, ex jockey/boxer owned the place, closed by very early 80's. in case you think the seabiscut movie has warped my memories this is from an earlier mention I had made of this place on this forum here or here: "Joey was a nice guy, an ex jockey/boxer (odd combination I know given the different skills involved , but anyway) who was an OLD time Detroiter and had seen it all come and go and would take the time to tell at least one smart ass kid stories of the Detroit HE knew. I wonder if anyone else remembers him ..." This place has gone through several restaurants since, sometimes it is a good restaurant other times it is not, I have not eaten there in 10 years it may now even be closed. Snow white Restaurant was on the N side of the street middle of the block between Warwick and Avon. IT had a cool neon sign on top. It closed ~74, sat empty for a long time and was eventually torn down for a medical clinic and/or it's parking lot. Further west food places LC's , Maria's, Creagers, IHOP, Dunkin Donuts, Rosedale Cafe, WC, ... and the grandland places have already been mentioned. I know this thread is not much fun to read if you are not familar with the area, but for those of us who are, this is loads of fun ... | ||
BV (Bvos) Posted From: 68.73.194.69 |
Wow! Thanks again Rustic. If you ever move back to Detroit I think you'll be the neighborhood historian by default. I'll call you the Rosedale Park Historian Emeritus for now! Thanks for all the great info. White Castle is back in the neighborhood. On the south side of GR between Sfld Service Dr. and Archdale (between the Marathon Gas Station and Fosdick Printing) a building (don't know what was there before) was demolished and a Rally's drive thru went in. Rally's pretty much went belly up everywhere and this site sat vacant for a few years. White Castle bought the place last summer and made some minor changes to make it a White Castle drive thru. Now when I have a late night craving for a sack of ten with vinyl I don't have to drive far! I'm trying to pinpoint the location of the Joey Paddock's. It may still be around and opening soon as a rib joint again. The IBEW hall was knocked over for a CVS. The North block of GR between Archdale and Sfld. was a Shell gas station and then torn down a few years ago again to make way for a new BP gas station. The block just east of that was torn down a few years ago to make way for a Boston Chicken. BC went belly up and then Popeye's Chicken bought the place and made it into a very nicely designed place. IHOP is still there, although an incredibly disgusting dump inside. Sun Ya is still there but is carry out only and a big dump as well. Arthur Treachers Fish and Chips building is still standing as Seafood Bay. The building has sat vacant for about 10 years but the owner is apparently going to make a new attempt at leasing/selling in the next few months. Thanks for the great history. Keep it coming! Next time you're in Detroit let me know. I owe you a big steak dinner! | ||
Farrer (Farrer) Posted From: 24.247.98.236 |
No, Rustic you're wrong... it's very interesting and has great historical significance. Wouldn't it be great if small neighborhoods, carefully chosen, densely concentrated block/intersections, could be reconstructed in a similar way? Of course around a decent and stable neighborhood with good lighting, parking, security, etc. Do that in 4 or 5 places in the city and eventually things would web together. Fast food, big-box stores and their parking, crummy party stores, riots, urban renewal, etc. all combined to destroy the small commercial blocks that continue to exist in other cities. Another thing about these areas that contributed to their demise seemed to be the way streets were widened, on-street parking eliminated, left-turns added, lanes added, corners and small blocks demolished for lanes and widenings, etc. They seem to bear little resemblance to the memories....none of the intimacy. It also seems that once destroyed, such an area can't be brought back but if preserved, at least there is a chance. Are there any such remaining neighborhoods with intimacy, foot traffic, on-street parking, taverns and restaurants...or rather, the qualities that made GR/F what it was at a smaller intersection? | ||
rustic (Rustic) Posted From: 130.132.177.245 |
BV, lol! By the time I make it back to Detroit I may be priced out of those neighborhoods (~50% appreciation on those homes every few years is KILLING ME, lol). Looks like I'll be lucky to be able to afford to buy a crappy new condo in soon-to-be-redeveloped brightmoor if trends continue ... ;) BV, seriously, my parents (34+ years and counting) or any of the other old time residents would be better sources of info on GR and Fenkell shopping than me ... there are plenty of these people still around in Crary St. Mary, Grandmont and the Rosedale Parks. In addition there are huge numbers of metro-Detroiters familiar with those neighborhoods throughout the 60's-00s ... remember, a hell of a lot of people have always lived in those neighborhoods and there was a lot of flux in housing which means lots of people passed through there. Few talk about it tho which is suprising to me ... ya get more crocodile tears over stone age neighborhoods that died generations ago than thriving places like that stretch in NW detroit bordering GR. but anyway ... Joey's Paddock was the second storefront west of kentford on GR. I THINK the building is still there ... I forgot that the "new" WC closed on GR and evergreen for that pep boys discount store. The old WC offa southfield was an original porcelined metal one that was a tiny little castle (it predated southfield freeway going in so it may have been moved a block east when the freeway went in -- how's THAT for OLD!). That block on the south side of GR just east of Southfield usedta have a great big Grinnells (a fancy music store chain that had a real classy feel to it, it felt more like a jewelery store than a place to buy cello strings or sheet music). Big electric GRINNELL'S sign across the top (actually now that I think about it all the signage up and down GR was QUITE gaudy (tedrick's camera on the n side of GR directly across from Grandland parking lot had a rotating camera on top, norwest lit up it's block, creager had this creepy cartoon guy hold a trumpet or something, Biffs, Snow White, McDonalds, SS Kresgee etc etc ...) Anyway, as I remember it Grinell's had a double height showroom and an l-shaped mezzannine with offices up top. The sales men wore suits. I know this sounds like a broken record but it closed in the mid 70's like just about every other busines along grandriver between greenfield and southfield did. It became a series of furniture stores through the 80's and eventually the building was torn down by the early 90's for fast food/gas convenince stores that sort of thing. | ||
BV (Bvos) Posted From: 68.73.194.69 |
Farrer, The Grandmont Rosedale Development Corp. www.grdc.org is working to restore that walkable commercial district in Rosedale Park and Grandmont. One thing that has really hurt commercial districts is the need for parking. Ferndale, Royal Oak, etc. were able to clear the blocks behind their primary commercial districts for parking. Behind the Grand River/Fenkell area is some of the best housing stock in the entire Detroit Metro area. There is no way anyone would want to give up their house for a parking lot. Another thing that hurts a commercial district is having curb cuts and entrances to parking lots in the middle of blocks. If you can eliminate curb cuts (and parking lots) in the middle of the block you will create a much more ped. friendly area. Additionally the market forces today push for big box retail instead of reusing existing commercial buildings. Detroit doesn't have the market demand that a Wash. DC or a Boston has where CVS, etc. are willing to move into any building to be there. Right now it's cheaper for the big box people to clear the buildings and put up their building set back from the road with a sea of parking. One last thing that really affects neighborhood shopping districts is a lack of investment in the streetscape by the City of Detroit. Ferndale, Royal Oak, etc have created ped. friendly areas through a number of ways, one of the biggest being an attractive street to walk down. Trees, benches, bike racks, flower planters, etc. all make for an inviting place to walk and go window shopping. I don't know of any area of Detroit that has these ammenities. | ||
BV (Bvos) Posted From: 68.73.194.69 |
Sorry to get off the topic. Please resume the great thoughts on GR/Fenkell | ||
jjaba (Jjaba) Posted From: 24.20.158.146 |
In 1965, jjaba and pals with Detroit Congress of Racial Equality (CORE) picketed the Grand River Grinnell's Music Store. We had good hearts and wanted them to hire Black people. Little did we know the results with white flight and all. I was in Detoit in the 40s, 50s, 60, etc. Ask me. I've described the Grand River electric feeder buses numerous times. I've described a wonderfully intact cityscape with very rich and middle class folks out Grand River. Sadly, the 2 cop-killer perp lives just across W. Seven Mile on Sussex, one blk. from jjaba's house. jjaba, very sad today about Detroit. The front page Detroit Free Press stories today are maddening for anybody who loves this city. www.thefreep.com jjaba | ||
rustic (Rustic) Posted From: 67.101.25.204 |
jjaba describes a GR fenkell that was a very different city than the Detroit where I grew up just a few years later. amazing! Too bad y'all didn't picket the DPD back then, tho ... Farrer, re streets, as I remember it, GR/Fenkell was never widened. Even back in the "good old days" GR was a pretty formidable street to cross (remember b4 jefferies, and the Northwestern spur oon the lodge, GR was the only direct way NW from Downtown to NW Detroit, Redford, Northern Livonia, Farmington, Farmington Hills etc and it was a real continuous stream of cars at times. There were left turn restrictions durring rush hours that made shopping tricky. Most stores had limited rear alley parking and there was on-street parking. There were occasionally larger lots here and there but it was fairly ad hoc, some only had access through the alleys and if you missed the side street turning around would be tricky what with the traffic and left turn restrictions. Nowadays things are MUCH more peaceful (traffic wise) along GR. What was really amazing was how rapidly that commerical strip changed as black people (probably no poorer mind you, and in some cases wealthier than the vacating whites) began moving into the surrounding neighborhoods. By about '78 or so most of the business at GR/Greenfield either closed, moved to the suburbs or DRAMATICALLY downgraded their merchandise and customer service practices. Same thing happened ~75-80 along GR between Greenfield and Southfield and ~80-85 west of southfield. We are talking about 100's of stores, businesses and professional offices big medium and small, all changing over in a relatively short period of time. After that there was this sort of continuous relentless erosion of businesses into lower and lower quality throughout the 80's and 90's (there are exceptions of course). This erosion is costly ... bustling tho it still is to this day, I am certain GR/Fenkell shopping does not attract even remotely same portion of neighborhood $$$ that it used to and there is no LEGIT reason why this should be the case OR why it happened in the first place. I'll bet GRandmont and the rosedale parks have household income levels right now comparable to or better than Huntington woods, Royal Oak or West Dearborn (and maybe even some of the more upscale suburbs than those -- North Rosedale Park may even be in the Plymouth and Rochester income ranges tho that's a cold guess on my part!) and even if you include the relatively poorer neighborhoods of Crary St. Mary and other nearby neighborhoods I'll bet nearby household income is STILL GREATER than OakPark, Harper Woods etc. I'd guess there are 20-30K people in the nearby neighborhoods so we are not talking about a handful of weathly "urban pioneers" here, in fact the only nearby neighborhood to suffer significant population loss since the "good old days" is tragic, tragic Brightmoor and this occurred relatively recently (mostly under Archers administration, tho the seeds were sown in the latter days of CAY's watch ... but that's off topic ...). well so much for my 4 am rant ... I make more sense with sleep ... | ||
BV (Bvos) Posted From: 68.73.194.69 |
Rustic, You're right about the income levels in Grandmont and Rosedale Park. The median income level for the 2 Rosedales and 2 Grandmonts is $63,382 with 40% of the neighborhood earning over $100,000 per year. That's equal to Plymouth, Rochester, etc. and exceeds Ferndale, Royal Oak, Wyandotte, Harper Woods, etc. If you were to take North Rosedale Park by itself the income levels would exceed areas of Grosse Pointe and Birmingham. There are about 6,000 households in the Grandmont and Rosedale Parks and 96,000 within a 2 mile radius. That far exceeds any of the upscale neighborhoods listed above. There is no good reason for the state of retail in Grandmont and Rosedale Park as you said above. It seems that the commercial landlords in the area take the first person to come which usually is a nail salon, beauty supply or a hair salon. Not that these are patently bad businesses, but when you have over 25 of them within a 1.5 mile stretch, that becomes a problem as well as an eyesore when many of them use gaudy and tacky color schemes as well as poorly maintain their buildings. Very few people in the neighborhood shop in the neighborhood. It's not because they don't want to shop in the neighborhood, it's because the stores in the neighborhood have poor service, poor maintenance, low quality producs, etc. Folks have shown that if a local business misses even one thing (mainly service) folks will drive 15 -30 minutes to get the same product/service at usually higher prices in the suburbs. Most of the businesses in Grandmont and Rosedale Park draw customers from outside of the neighborhood with very few businesses drawing customers that live in Grandmont and Rosedale Park. It sounds like traffic was pretty crazy back in the day. People still complain about it today (I'd say it's pretty crazy myself). Would I be correct in saying that people were willing to shop in spite of the traffic because the stores were worth going to? The Brighmoor thing is a recent phenomenon as you stated. I can remember that Brighmoor was always poor and largely white up until the late 80s early 90s but still densly populated. I went to college and came back and was absolutely stunned when I drove through Brightmoor. Vacant houses everywhere, burned out houses, vacant lots, a largely abandoned commercial district, etc. This all happened within a 5-7 year stretch. If someone did a documentary film and tracked the changes that happened within that time period, I don't think anyone would believe the film was real. | ||
rustic (Rustic) Posted From: 130.132.177.245 |
BV, re those income levels you quoted, WOW! I'm impresed! I guess all those two income households add up! Damn, I'll have to tell my Mom tonight she might as well be living in Plymouth, lol! It would be interesting to compare comparably-sized portions of the City of Detroit to various suburbs in terms of crime, income, housing values etc. Of course this trend to balkanize the city into cut and dried neighborhoods has all sorts of negative connotations esp in parts where there is a lot of "flux", but it would be fun to do for comparison purposes. BV you wrote It sounds like traffic was pretty crazy back in the day. ... Would I be correct in saying that people were willing to shop in spite of the traffic because the stores were worth going to? I can't say, IMO it is difficult to compare today with back then. Jeffries FWY now makes it EZ to shoot out west to shop at Middlebelt rd etc, and there is WAY more strip mall style shopping in bordering suburbs (Dearborn, Southfield and Redford/Farmington Hills) catering to NW Detroit consumers. Back then the closest "normal" mall was Livonia Mall a 30+ minute drive away. (Remember Northland was pretty upscale and in the 70's even those $$$ neighborhoods were as much full of families taking advantage of cheap housing prices as it was white collar managment types and thus was probably not as relatively wealthy as today. (How about THAT for those reading this who like to picture the City of Detroit as some sort of bombed out, hopeless charity case wasteland!)) BV, also another thing to remember re those neighborhoods, (taking off my rose colored glasses for a minute) was that in these "good old days" that I'm recalling, most of the then-residents began getting the h*ll out of that neighborhood about as fast as they could when the first black families were RUMORED to be moving in, (I'll bet the much of the SMART $$ upper management types bailed on that area in the 50's and 60's, but that was b4 my time) lol, first selling to "bottom feeding" whites then to middle class blacks (many blocks esp in Cray St. Mary and Grandmont II) "changed" over faster than it took the Viet Cong to take Saigon as the American troops pulled out, lol! I was the weirdest damn thing to see as a kid 10+ houses on a single block for sale at the same time, block after block, street after street, year after year. 25%+ of your grade school classmates replaced each year, year after year with new kids. People selling prestige houses at a loss and moving into dull new construction in Farmington Hills, Livonia, Novi for 2-3x the sale price of their Detroit home. And it just did not stop, many houses changed hands 3 and 4 times in a decade often each time selling for less and less $$$ (in a high inflationary economy no less)! Of course there was all sorts of block busting and other things going on at the time to force residents out other than just straightforward bigotry ... but that is subject for another thread ... So I'm blabbing too much on this, I'd like to hear from from others re GR/fenkell shopping. My memories are just that, my own and others may recall things more accurately or have another perspective. This IS loads of fun tho .... ps -- Re Brightmoor, the xact same shit happpened earlier all over Detroit, in Brightmoor the machinery has just been accellerated into it's most brutally efficient mode yet ... next comes rezoning and redevelopment (I already claim dibs on renaming the NE part "West Rosedale Park" ...) | ||
jjaba (Jjaba) Posted From: 24.20.158.146 |
BV and rustic are incredible story tellers. Your writng ought to be in a book. Thank you so very much. Both of you live it and know Detroit. What jjaba brings to the table is a Grand River before the Jeffries Expressway, before there was a Southfield, Farmington Hills, Livonia. Those were townships, then became 36 sq. mile cities built for 100,000 white people who needed to escape the post-war black economy. This Detroit is the highest income black nation in the whole fucking world my friends. And this very wealthy black nation in its masses could NOT live outside the City Limits until very recently. That's why jjaba, a working class guy in a Detroit two-flat on Northlawn near Grand River looked up to Greenfield and Grand River like it was beyond, yes, beyond my dreams. Still is today. We finally upgraded to Sussex and W. Seven Mile Rd. into a single 1960s tract 2-bedroom place because no way in hell is jjaba doing Oak Park or any suburb. jjaba loves the Hamilton Express too much after his yrs. of being splashed by the Grand River feeder buses to move beyond 8 Mile Rd. Poindexter tried his damndest to save Rosedale and Grandmont. But his references were not neighborhood, but race. It isn't race. It is preservation of this wonderful community, black and white together. So when he was vilified as a bigot, the next generation left in droves. They took the race card and the block busters succeeded in getting enough built in those newer cities referenced out into the great beyond. Coming up, civilization ended at 8 Mile or at Telegraph where the buses turned around. Am I the onliest guy on this Board who understands that? Yes, CIVILIZATION. Case in Point. Livonia. Nationally known as the whitest city in the USA over 100,000! Now for retail. Sadly, black people don't do retail very well. They like to work for others. They get a pharmacy license and work for Walgreens. They get an engineers license and work for Fords or some big construction company. They work for big ins. companies, big anything, or public service. I'd need a whole sociology class to explain it. The other prob. for retail is that white folks sent this generation to college and they don't want to run stores 80 hrs. a week, in a dangerous store, getting shot up or broken into all the time. So our neighborhood small store fabric is gone. So gone is our Sanders chains, our CF Johnson Creameries, our Eagles Dairies, our Wilson's Dairies, our Bond Stores, National Shirts, all the little restaurants which we called Greek joints, barber shops, little jewelers, little travel agencies, local hardware stores, druggists, and doctors along Grand River Ave. This sadly, is no more. jjaba | ||
Sailor Rick (Sailor_rick) Posted From: 12.2.192.223 |
I'd have to take issue with BV's observation that the Brightmoor neighborhood was "poor". At least when I was living there in the late 70's early 80's, it was still a viable area with most of the residents working at the then operating factories and machine shops. Some surreal memories, like the Labor Day parade led by then City Councilman Clyde Cleveland waving from an El Dorado convertible, followed by the Redford High cheerleaders, then the Forbidden Wheels "outlaw" Motorcycle Club. Never could figure out the "First Psychic Church of Brightmoor" on Fenkell. Could anyone else? The "Brighmoor Queens" were rather fetching before they turned 21 but deadly if "owned" by the aforementioned bike gang. Used to have a riot playing softball at Eliza Howell park then hitting the punk clubs. No doubt the double-barelled whammy of the 80's recession and crack destroyed that area. Ouch! | ||
65memories (65memories) Posted From: 198.109.0.231 |
I remember vividly as a child, my grandmother would drive my two brothers and me to Stoepel Park. We were 8, 6 and 3. We would play in the park and walk around for a while. Then she would drive us through Rosedale Park and North Rosedale, where we would marvel at the homes. These were houses we could not afford, much larger than our own. My dad was a vacuum cleaner salesman at Sears and my mother a housewife. At the time we were living a 1950ish, Leave It to Beaver lifestyle in a relatively new neighborhood at Schoolcraft and Lyndon near Telegraph. (Some years ago I discovered that the property upon which we built our small, but affordable 1953 3-bedrood ranch on Acacia was originally slated for multi-structural multi-cultural building, but that Open Housing effort was thwarted by the arch-conservative city council at the time and Mayor Cobo. In the early 1950’s, a human rights group had been pushing for integrated housing. The Brightmoor press and Redford Record vehemently opposed the effort and mounted a vitriolic, racist campaign against it. The powers that be caved in. But that’s for another discussion). Anyway, I remembered those beautiful homes in Rosedale (at that time the elm trees dwarfed the streets, forming a canopy of shade. In autumn, the slivers of sunlight filtering through the golden leaves was beautiful). In the 70’s, when I was getting ready to settle down and raise a family, I looked for an area in Detroit that was integrated, stable, friendly and progressive. Rosedale Park fit the bill. In the 28 years I have lived in the Park, I have not regretted the move. I found a community where neighbors know each other and people care about each other. And although the racial balance has shifted, that continues to be the case. I became active, served as a board member and officer, volunteered with GRDC’s Grafitti Busters, helped with Rosedale’s two super athletic leagues, soccer (fall) and baseball (spring), organized the annual June Parade, etc. , and came to know some caring, hard-working, individuals. My three boys made diverse friendships they will keep for life. And it’s great to attend Rosedale’s Annual Banquet where hundreds of residents celebrate their friendship. And through all the years, an important element affecting the perception of the community has been the state of health of the business community. That is why it saddened me when Cregar’s left and Maria’s moved (even after a fight to save it). That is why I’m glad to see Java in the Park, Fisher’s fish place and Foodland prosper. And even International House of Pancakes. It is vital that they survive. It is why I go to Rosedale Hardware when possible or True Value (Grandmont) instead of ACO because those establishments have stayed. It is why I get upset when I see a new establishment (CVS, Farmer Jack, gas stations, etc.) open up with beautiful, bright interiors and above-average customer service and then three months later they act like they could care less. Suddenly, their once clear store aisles are filled with partially open boxes and the exteriors are not maintained. Trash and litter are strewn about. They cut back on personnel and cut back on upkeep. (We have Rite Aide and CVS fighting for a mediocrity award. The Marathon station, on the corner of Grand River and Southfield, once a clean, well-lit place, seemed to “cry uncle” once the new BP went up across the street). And jjaba, BV and rustic are right…we don’t need any more beauty salon or supply stores; we don’t need any more dollar stores or party stores or liquor stores; and God knows, we don’t need any more nail places. GRDC (Grandmont Rosedale Development Corporation) has done a tremendous A+ job providing money and know-how to upgrade the GR strip (BV can definitely tell us a lot more about this, since he is directly involved). GRDC has injected an aura of hope and optimism in the whole business outlook. They have provided training, helped make architectural improvements and advised financially. So I don’t have a sense of doom. It’s just that it is a slow rebuilding process. Still, I love Rosedale Park. My brother lived for years in Royal Oak and never knew his neighbors. He was amazed that we know almost everyone on our block and we are not atypical. And the elms I remembered as a kid have been replaced by a variety of species…maples and oaks and others. The homes are still well-maintained and Rosedale is on the verge of becoming a historical district. Now..if only we can get this damn winter over so I can take my warm-weather walks through the Park, I’ll be satisfied. | ||
BV (Bvos) Posted From: 68.74.28.254 |
jjaba, Your commentary on race is right on. So what do we do about black folks not wanting to own their own business? Most of the beauty supply stores, hip-hop clothing stores, dollar stores, nail salons, hair salons, .... are owned by Korean or Chinese folks. From a social standpoint it doesn't make any sense. It seems that black folks would be the best people to own and operate these places. What would it take to convince black folks to start their own businesses? Sailor Rick, Brightmoor has always been a low to lower middle income neighborhood. Doesn't mean it was a bad neighborhood, just that income was low. These areas tend to be the most affected by block busting and other real estate and economic schemes as can be witnessed by it's condition today. I grew up poor in Chesterfield Twp. back when it was a rural area and you had to drive to Mt. Clemens for the nearest grocery store. I didn't realize I grew up poor until college when I started talking about powdered milk, not having tennis shoes for gym class, food stamps, reduced price lunch, etc. with my classmates. Most of them had no idea what I was talking about. Those that did understand what I was talking about grew up in the projects of Chicago. I had a great childhood and had great neighbors, nearly all of whom were in the same financial predicament as my parents. Everyone on the 1/2 mile dirt road knew everyone and we got together for street parties, etc. I'm sure your experience in Brightmoor was similar. When did the biker gangs come to Brightmoor? 65, Have to agree with everything you said. Rosedale Park is a fabulous place to live and work. Thanks for the encouragement! Did Rosedale Park or Grandmont mount public opositions to open housing, bussing, etc. like Brightmoor did? I'm guessing they didn't use the incendiary language of Brighmoor, but did they use code words to let you know they were strongly in oposition? | ||
jjaba (Jjaba) Posted From: 24.20.158.146 |
jjaba is from Schoolcraft and Wyoming area, Noble School, Tappan Intermediate, Mc Kenzie HS, St. Brigid Parish, no where near Brightmoor. Thomas Poindexter was a very forceful and well-known organizer/lawyer in the 1950-60s who advocated for an all-white Rosedale Park. He was also invoved with Moral Re-armament Movement which is before Up With People and the tv evangelists. He fought every property tax hike. Rosedale tried to hang on and resist selling to blacks. But the tide of an emerging black middle class, a black ecomony, black political power, Coleman Young, the UAW, and block busters churning folks to Livonia and Redford Twp. like butter, + wealthy black professionals, and the jobs of Fords, GM, and other Westside industrial powers, was too much. The aging out of the neighborhood was apparent as young white families went to the suburbs. So the old white Rosedale, the old white Redford High School, the old white-all white shopping districts collapsed under all the weight. Blacks in retail is a real struggle for them. They just don't have the traditions, the interest, the financing, nor the work ethic for this enterprise. Sure, there are all kindz examples to the contrary but that seems to be the case on Grand River Ave. in Detroit. Koreans, Viet Namese, Indians, Chaldeans, Chinese etc. are internally financed with family meetings. They have the infrastructure and a billion folks wanting to come to the USA and work like animals. Praise them. They work very hard for all of us. jjaba, tells it like it tis. | ||
Sailor Rick (Sailor_rick) Posted From: 12.2.192.33 |
BV, I'm sure you didn't mean Brightmoor was a "bad" nieghborhood just "poor" which from experience and my world travels are relative. I realize this is off the thread but like yourself, I grew up "poor" in get this, Birmingham (MI). I also remember, (none too fondly) free school lunches and at home, a styrofoam cooler instead of a refrigerator for a summer. This was in the early-mid 70's, and most of my friends were in the same strata-although many came from solid middle-class backgrounds, a divorce or death left our family's with no fathers and little income. Usually there was enough from a settlement to buy a house in the then, affordable Birmingham. (The house my mom bought for $35,000 in 1970 is worth almost $240,000 now!) Anyhow, I didn't grow up in Brightmoor, just lived there for a few years, fun memories of it and like the rest, am sad to see it, and so many other Detroit nieghborhoods destroyed. I imagined the bike gangs moved in duing the late 60's. I never had any run ins with them and heard they often would "escort" a trouble-maker (of any color) out of the nieghborhood. The police, apparently had no problem with this. (Save 'em the paperwork) | ||
jjaba (Jjaba) Posted From: 24.20.158.146 |
Brightmoor was before Detroit. jjaba was always amazed at the little cottages on W. Outer Drive whenever we drove out there. Today, he is amazed to see burned out hulks of cars in the middle of streets. The buildings, the board-ups, the lack of retail, the filth, makes it look now like a back roads village in Mississippi. It is an example of the collapse of neighborhood pride. Ofcourse, you can find the same thing in Chicago, Kansas City, St. Louis. Pure rustbelt. Pure neglect and lack of leadership and caring. jjaba appreciates the confessions of Sailor Rick. He tells it like it tis. Any house in the suburbs could be bought for these low prices yrs. back. The houses have appreciated atleast to the rates of inflation while Detroit's values have not. Not even close. Ferndale is a great example of this. $25,000 houses in the 1960s worth $300,000 today. It's a beautiful thing. It's called civic pride. And a lotta luck. Here's a Yiddische tune. Any melody works. "You've gotta have a little mazel, and mazel it means luck; and if you've gotta a ein bissel mazel, you'll surely make a buck." jjaba, all in the timing. |
