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Detroit's 2nd Train Terminal - 3Douglasm138 07-03-06  7:43 pm
Detroit's 2nd Train Terminal - 2Mikem90 12-01-05  12:51 am
Detroit's 2nd Train Terminal - 1Hornwrecker125 10-01-05  10:58 pm
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Mikem
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Username: Mikem

Post Number: 2484
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.43.15.105
Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2006 - 12:58 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know unit trains are another story, but it's always nice to see a little bit of home when you're far away. Although there's nothing in this picture to indicate where I am, I was in fact in Bismarck, North Dakota, about a month ago. A Detroit Edison coal train rolled through town, hauling empties back to the Powder River, probably from the docks at Superior.

DEEX Bismarck



Matter of fact, anytime I'm in Bismarck or Fargo or Sioux Falls (too often for my tastes), I see at least one DE train per day pass through.
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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 1128
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 63.41.8.104
Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2006 - 1:13 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Too bad you don't see the old, blue U25Bs heading up the trains. I used to always see those units in Lang Yard, Toledo, on their runs up from WV.

Somewhere I have an old issue of Trains about the Detroit Edison coal trains - somewhere in the 3 ft + pile of old Trains mags. :-)
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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 1159
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 63.41.8.72
Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 12:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

From 1921, the MC Freight House on 10th and W Jefferson. The real reason for posting this map is to show the track arrangement of the coal yard, that looks like it was done by a deranged Lionel fanatic. There's a prototype for everything.


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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 685
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 1:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Would a consist be able to go completely around that teardrop, or was it just extra space for offloading?
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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 1161
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 63.41.8.72
Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 1:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I measure the distance between the pairs of switches (left to right) at about 110 feet! That would be about a 7.5" radius in HO, or a 4" in N. Yikes!

There might have been a coal unloading ramp (labeled as coal storage area) on the lower left, and they used gravity to run the empty cars around it. Just speculating again.
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Busterwmu
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Username: Busterwmu

Post Number: 245
Registered: 09-2004
Posted From: 67.102.76.68
Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 8:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Run through power is another reason you'll see "foreign" locomotives on the head end of trains. Sometimes it's just easier to keep the same engines on the front of a train from the Powder River Basin to Detroit rather then taking of the BNSF power at Cicero near Chicago and putting CN power on, for example. Standard locomotive designs across many railroads allow this to be possible with no fear that a locomotive crew will have problems operating someone else's locomotive.

Oakwood Junction is the junction between the NS Detroit Division (ex Wabash) and CN Dearborn Subdivision (former DT&I). It sees something between 20-25 trains on the NS and 6-8 on the CN. A transfer train runs between CN Flat Rock and the NS Oakwood and return weekdays, maybe weekends too.

The NS Wabash line goes southwest from Detroit via Romulus, Belleville, Milan, Adrian, Butler OH and Montpelier, OH. From there it goes to Fort Wayne and eventually to St. Louis. Butler is where the NS line crosses the former Conrail (NYC) Water Level Route. A new wye was constructed in the NW quadrant of this diamond to allow CP Rail trains to operate from Detroit toChicago entirely via the NS, taking most of the CP Traffic off of the CSX former C&O between Detroit and Porter (Chicago) via Grand Rapids. That would explain the CP trains you've seen on the NS.

Lots of new locomotives from EMD's London Ontario shops come via the Port Huron tunnel and CN instead of via Detroit. GE's locomotives come from Erie, PA.
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Aarne_frobom
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Username: Aarne_frobom

Post Number: 24
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 162.108.2.222
Posted on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 10:30 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Regarding the United Fuel and Supply coal yard, I think gravity is the only thing that could power a car around this impossibly-tight loop. I would never have figured that out. If the loop has a diameter of 110 feet, it's very roughly a 100-degree curve - way too tight for any locomotive except a four-wheel switcher with no tender. And I never heard of those being used in Detroit the way they were in New York or Baltimore streets. A tractor might haul a car around the loop, but those were scarce before 1921. Horses might have done the job, though. The little stub track to the top of the map might have been used to place a car for winching up a ramp to a coal dock, but it might be too short for a reverse ramp that would ordinarily be used in combination with a spring switch to send cars back off the unloading dock. The loop might have been used to keep the loaded and empty cars apart. Pretty wild stuff. I wonder how many empties they tipped over? You never know what you'll find on old Sanborn maps.
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Sven1977
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Username: Sven1977

Post Number: 188
Registered: 04-2004
Posted From: 209.220.229.254
Posted on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 11:16 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Isn't there an NMRA convention coming to Detroit?
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Wabashrr1
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Username: Wabashrr1

Post Number: 123
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 152.163.100.8
Posted on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 12:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.nmra.org/convention /

From what I understand, they are quite expensive for the entire convention.
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Douglasm
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Username: Douglasm

Post Number: 556
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.189.188.28
Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 9:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

bump.
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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 1198
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 63.41.8.180
Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 10:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was wondering where Wabash had their passenger station before FSUD. I located it near the 12th St. Freight Station on the 1884 map. (It was rather unimpressive, so I kept missing it.)


Wabash passenger station 1884

The industrial building on the corner of 13th St. was the first home of the Detroit Blower Co, who later had a couple of large factories in the Milwaukee Jct area.
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Wabashrr1
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Username: Wabashrr1

Post Number: 137
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 64.12.116.204
Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 11:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hornwrecker, I'm assuming that's Fort street on the top of the map, or is it Jefferson? If it's Fort street, when was Jefferson built?
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 736
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 12:46 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's Jefferson, formerly River Street, which at one time was fairly close to the river. Which leads to my question: How much of the current land south of Jefferson was once under water back during the 1800s?
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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 1201
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 63.41.8.164
Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 12:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I went back to look at the maps, and much to my surprise that street is labeled W. Woodbridge, W. Jefferson ended or merged at 1st St. I always thought it was River St. until the Jefferson name replaced it. I'll check other sources.

I'm not sure of how to figure out the land infill yet, I'll look at the NOAA site and see what they have. I think old nautical charts would have the most accurate mapping for this purpose.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 746
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 3:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A lot of the east side of Woodward south of Jefferson was marsh, wetlands, or actual river or floodplain over a century ago. There also were a fair number of creeks that were shunted into the storm sewers until their headwaters dried up. Holbrook creek was some 25 feet across in Hamtramck.
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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 1227
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 63.41.40.99
Posted on Thursday, June 08, 2006 - 9:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is kind of off topic, but here is the Downtown ticket office of the Pennsylvania Railroad (left), next to the Railway Express Office (right) in Campus Martius and Monroe. PRR was in part of the Opera House bldg, REA in the bldg where the old Temple Theatre was.

PRR ticket office

Later on, most railroads had offices in the Book Tower/Book Building. I remember getting posters and calenders there when I went to work with my mother, when I was a wee lad.

Time for another page, please.
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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 1250
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 63.41.8.233
Posted on Saturday, June 17, 2006 - 4:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was looking at a photo of the Wabash freight yard for another thread, and noticed the ramp for the FSUD viaduct in the background, so here is an enlargement of it.

FSUD ramp to vaiduct
wsu
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 875
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Saturday, June 17, 2006 - 5:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To the nearest 1/2 street, just where did the trestle begin on its west side? Just a bit to the west of the cut from the MCT, possibly around 12 or 13th Street--allowing vehicular access to the Wabash complex and train traffic to some of the buildings on Jefferson just to the west of the MCT cut?

Which of those Jefferson buildings in the background still stand today?
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Wabashrr1
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Username: Wabashrr1

Post Number: 158
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 64.12.116.204
Posted on Saturday, June 17, 2006 - 7:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The ramp begins at about 15th street and terminates, I guess where the viaduct would have begun, at just before 12th (Rosa Parks). I was down there earlier in the spring, drove along what use to be Jefferson (now a crater filled alley) and most of the buildings shown in this 2002 terraserver photo are still there. Abandoned and full of junk but still there. Ignore the 12th st terminal notation near the end of the ramp, that isn't it.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 877
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Saturday, June 17, 2006 - 7:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know where the ramp started; been there, done that... But I just went back to the older post and found that the viaduct itself started about a hundred feet west of Vermont Street.

As to the track feeding the plants north of the viaduct, there was a single industrial track parallel to and just to the north of the viaduct, and those many sidings split off north from that track. I walked that stretch two summers ago, and it was spooky with all the homeless or whatever congregating there.
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Busterwmu
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Username: Busterwmu

Post Number: 252
Registered: 09-2004
Posted From: 66.134.108.131
Posted on Saturday, June 17, 2006 - 11:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would recommend the book "Chesapeake and Ohio In Color 2" by Jeremy F. Plant and William G. McClure III. Morning Sun Books. It covers the C&O all around Michigan, basically the whole Pere Marquette division. Many excellent photos of C&O trains, freight and passenger, at FSUD, their yard near the Boatyard, the Viaduct, and the Union Belt, also Delray and Rougemere.
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Detroitoronto
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Username: Detroitoronto

Post Number: 3
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 207.112.76.233
Posted on Monday, June 26, 2006 - 3:11 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

bump
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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 1281
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 63.157.69.201
Posted on Monday, July 03, 2006 - 10:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is the Michigan Central, North Detroit station from 1915, located at Railroad Ave and Mill St. The closest current intersection would be Nevada and Filer, two blocks east of Mt. Elliott. The station was also the freight station and local post office.

MCRR North Detroit station
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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 1285
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 63.157.66.197
Posted on Tuesday, July 04, 2006 - 10:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here's a map of the Village of North Detroit, the red push-pin shows the location of the station. If you look at a current map, only of a few of the side streets kept their name, or even exist now.

North Detroit 1915

McNichols was Beamer Ave, Van Dyke turned into Center Line Rd. I never knew Davison was a boulevard.
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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 1306
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 66.19.24.185
Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 11:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

MCRR  Gratiot Freight Station

The Michigan Central Gratiot Freight Station, near Bellevue, from 1915. I never knew this existed before.

Anybody have any info about the Village of North Detroit, and when the station was removed from any NYC/MC timetables?

I almost forgot... highlighted in green is F.P. Zimmer, maker of table relishes. It looks like it was just built on the alley of a residential lot.
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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 1328
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 66.19.25.109
Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 9:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The GTW freight station on Trombley and Dequindre, 1910 Sanborn.

GTW freight station 1910

Since there is now a place for this thread to go to once it falls from the main page and remain open, I think this will be my last post in this thread for awhile.
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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 1410
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 66.19.25.194
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 12:15 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

An old ad for Pennsy's passenger trains between Detroit and Chicago.

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Wabashrr1
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Username: Wabashrr1

Post Number: 198
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 172.147.156.96
Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 1:03 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thought some of you may enjoy these. Taken from the movie Detroit 9000, posted with guarded permission.

The one and only shot inside FSUD..

fsud1

Third Street...

fsud2

A view rarely seen of the station...

fsud3

To the trains....

fsud33

A wider view...

fsud4

Still wider... all the tracks..

fsud333

Under the platform sheds...

fsud5

Another..

fsud55

Tried to grab this one un-obstructed but couldn't get it.. 6th St. Tower??

fsud6

A couple shots of, and under, the viaduct..

fsud333

fsud2

fsud2

The final chase scene took place between FSUD and what I believe is Woodmere cemetary and this building was along the way.. Can somebody ID it for me?? This is the only shot I could capture of it.

fsud3

That's it for now.. Hope you enjoyed it.
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Horn_wrecker
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Username: Horn_wrecker

Post Number: 3
Registered: 08-2006
Posted From: 65.140.158.118
Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 10:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nice screen captures Wabash, someday I'll have to find a copy of that gem.

Here is the 1965 timetable from the Grand Trunk, I cropped it to show the Detroit to Pontiac trains.

GTW 1965 timetable

GTW 1965 timetable

GTW 1965 timetable

GTW 1965 timetable
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1953
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Username: 1953

Post Number: 1337
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Wednesday, March 28, 2007 - 1:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is this Fort Street station the one pictured in the new Detroit picture book that I'm seeing in stores these days?