Discuss Detroit » Hall of Fame Threads » Detroit's 2nd Train Terminal » Detroit's 2nd Train Terminal - 1 « Previous Next »
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Hubrez
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Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 8:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lask week I took my Dad to renew his plates, and as we were driving down Fort, he mentioned that he remembers picking up my mom in 1956 from the train station on Fort and Third. He said it was Grand Trunk and Wabash trains. Anyone remember this?
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Mikem
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Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 8:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

True, although I don't think Grand Trunk used it; they used one on the east side of Woodward near the river. Someone here will eventually post an old photo of it (them) for you.
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Lilpup
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Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 8:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Depot
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Benjamin
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Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 8:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And Pennsylvania Railroad before the Penn Central merger. Romenesque style building. If I were on my own computer I could post images, but I'm using someone else's at the moment. I never liked it as much as the MCS. Now, if you want a REAL train station, you'll want to find images of the MCS's predicessor.

Benjamin A. Vazqeuz, U.E.
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Benjamin
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Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 8:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

WOW! Two other responses in nothing more than my typing time. Impressive
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Mikem
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Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 8:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Third Street Station

Fort St Union Station

And GTW's was the Brush Street Station.
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Hubrez
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Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 8:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

WOW! Quick responses from my fellow forumers.
My mom just informed me that I actualy used that station in 1963. We left here to Ste. Louis, switch trains to Laredo Texas. My sister just told me " Don't you remember, you kept on saying Look, Look at the man with the bald head" LOL. I just ask her Please tell me I was speaking spanish.
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Fury13
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Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 8:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, I'm a big fan of Romanesque, so I love the look of the old Fort St. Union Depot.

The old Michigan Central Depot was nice too, though. The 1850 date on that linked story may refer to when the site began being used as a railroad depot... because the building looks about 1880 vintage to me. It's actually Romanesque too, but earlier, and not quite as squat.
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Fury13
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Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 9:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK, just checked. The old Michigan Central depot seems to have been built in 1882-1883.

(Message edited by Fury13 on September 18, 2005)
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Hornwrecker
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Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 10:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Union Station

Union Station

excavation for Union station

"Excavations for new Union Station"
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Busterwmu
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Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 11:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fort Street was served by the Pennsylvania Railroad, Wabash, and Pere Marquette. The PRR ran such well known trains as their Detroit Express and Red Arrow. The Wabash, later Norfolk and Western after their 1964 takeover, had the well known Wabash Cannonball, and other trains. The Pere Marquette, and C&O after their 1947 takeover, ran the Pere Marquettes to Grand Rapids and Chicago, and The Sportsman into Virginia.The station started service in the 1890s I believe, and was in service until the night before Amtrak day, April 30, 1971. It closed forever then, and was demolished in 1974. WCCC now stands on its site and I must say the depot looked a hell of a lot better then the ugly college building does across from Fort St. Presbyterian Church.

Incidentally, the New York Central, Baltimore and Ohio, and Canadian Pacific all were served out of the Michigan Central Depot. Brush Street Station under the RenCen served Grand Trunk Western alone.
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Bob_cosgrove
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Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 11:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is one building surviving from the Fort Street Union Depot complex, at least its skelton survives under a new exterior. That is the former concrete reinforced Pennsylvania Railroad two story freight station where West Jefferson was before being relocated. I don'know how WCCC utilizes it.

Farther west and between West Jefferson and the river, but before 12th Street there's an aluminum clad structure, which houses the ventilating fans for the Detroit River Tunnel, which leads into Michigan Central Depot.

Another aside, the name "Wabash Cannonball" was originally a song title, not a named train. But, the song became so popular, that in the 1960's the Wabash adopted it for their Detroit to St. Louis service.

Bob Cosgrove
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The_rock
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Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 9:51 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I took the GTW from the old Brush street station many a time out to B'ham and Pontiac ( even Durand). Beautiful old 4-8-4 steam engine belching black and white smoke. Stops at Milwaukee Junction, Royal Oak, Ferndale etc.
As you looked out the window to the West, you could even watch horse-racing at the old State Fair Grounds.
Miss those rides. Seems that they tried to revive that service during the 70's, but it petered out.
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Benjamin
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Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 2:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fury 13, I LOVE the romanesque style. I just find this building a bit plain. It's not like Toronto's city hall, or Pittsburgh's courthouse, for instance. As you pointed out, the old MCS is really Romenesque as well. Not that I don't like the building, I just don't like it as much. Mostly I was looking for an excuse to introduce MCS II, which has always been my very favorite ex-Detroit building.

Benjamin A. Vazquez, U.E.
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Fury13
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Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 3:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK. Well, I like the Fort St. Union Depot quite a bit. The clock tower portion is very similar to Old Main at Wayne State University (originally Central High School and built in 1896).

You probably like the high roofed tower on the 1883-1913 Michigan Central Depot. That was a roof style in vogue for a short time (the church at Jefferson and Hastings... err, the Chrysler Freeway... has one). Fairly rare to see that today.

Now, the third Michigan Central Depot (the one still standing, opened in 1913) was done in Beaux-Arts style, which was the trend in those days. After the Columbian Exposition in Chicago in 1893 (with its "White City" buildings in grand Beaux-Arts style), nearly every city in the U.S. felt compelled to design all new public buildings in that style. Suddenly, Romanesque was thought to be too rude or humble, not grand or classical enough for public buildings.

(Message edited by Fury13 on September 19, 2005)
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Burnsie
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Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 2:36 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The MC Depot standing today is actually the FOURTH one. The first, from the 1830's, was somewhere on Michigan Ave., then the 2nd opened when the tracks were relocated off the streets.
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Benjamin
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Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 9:40 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I didn't know that. I know number two was a georgian style building somwhere near what's now Hart Plaza (I don't know the exact address) Anyone have pictures of either building?

Benjamin A. Vazquez, U.E.

Oh, and yes, I do love that high roof. And I know a fair amount about what the Columbian Exposition did to the world. I'm a big Danial H. Burnham fan. Not that that means I can't like the earlier styles more.
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Bob_cosgrove
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Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 11:39 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The first 1837 station (then the State of Michigan owned Central of Michigan) was on the Michigan Avenue side of Kennedy Square.

This was replaced by another station in the 1840's or 1850's at the foot of 3rd Street in the middle of the block next to the river. This portion of 3rd still exists immediately west of Joe Louis Arena and bewteen the arena and the Riverfront Apartments - it now runs only from West Jefferson to the River.

The c.1890 Michigan Central Station (not Depot) was almost on the same site, but on the southwest corner of 3rd and West Jefferson. It was replaced c.1913 when it burned by the present Michigan Central Depot (not Station).

The c.1890 structure was not destroyed by the fire and remained in use as the MC freight station until removed in the late 1960's or early 1970's for redevelopment of the area - long before Joe Louis Arena or the Riverfront Apartments.

There were a number of other lesser Michigan Central stations in Detroit. The former Henry Ledyard (MC president) home stood on the northeast corner of Bellevue and East Jefferson, now the parking lot for the Lofts Condos.

The MC Woodward Avenue Station was on the elevated tracks where the Michigan Central and Grand Trunk pass over Woodward.

These two stations were for commuter rail service. The Michigan Central (Canada Southern) station on Grosse Ile, now housing the Grosse Ile Historical Society, ran commuter rail service from their into the city.

I'm not certain if the commuter rail ran from Grosse Ile to MC Depot or to other suburban stations or both, but was discontinued in the 1920's, probably due to the popularity of the automobile and improved roads.

As far as I know, there never was any rail station in Hart Plaza (the 3rd Street stations were west of there), but in the 1840's the then light-weight freight cars may have been hauled by horses from the original 1837 station to the waterfront.

Trains Magazine ran an article a year or so ago on Detroit showing the 3rd Street terminus connected to the line paralleling East Jefferson to the south along Wight and Franklin Streets going through Hart Plaza. But, this was incorrect according to the 1893 and 1929 Baist Real Estate Alases.

Bob Cosgrove
Glancy Trains Curator,
Detroit Historical Museum
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Fury13
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Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 11:42 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Burnham fan here too, Benjamin. I'm not a huge fan of Beaux-Arts though... my favorite IS Romanesque.

Romanesque, and especially Second Empire and Victorian Gothic buildings were torn down and severely "modernized" all over the country beginning in the '20s. Those designs were seen as dated and out of style. They were even deemed "monstrous" and "hideous." People clamored to tear it all down. That's one reason you don't see that much of those genres today.

Burnham's City of Chicago Plan of 1909 is a masterwork.
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Bob_cosgrove
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Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 11:57 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Daniel Burnham was retained in the 1910's by the City Planning Commission. Among the results were the Arts Center, now the University Cultural Center, most notably amond the 1920's buildings are the Main Branch of the Detroit Public Library and the Detroit Institute of Arts.

Bob Cosgrove
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Fury13
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Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 12:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bob, regarding the station that you refer to as the c.1890 Michigan Central Station (Third Street)... I'm finding various dates of construction such as 1880, 1882, and 1883. It also appears to have been designed by Cyrus L.W. Eidlitz, not Spier and Rohns.

http://www.famousamericans.net /leopoldeidlitz/

Did Woodbridge Street extend behind this station?

Interesting about the fate of the structure... I didn't know that much of it survived into the '60s. The 1913 fire must have taken the whole tower out.

(Message edited by Fury13 on September 20, 2005)
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Bob_cosgrove
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Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 1:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was using c.1890 for Fort Street Union Depot, since that appeared before. Give me a little time and I'll get the exact dates.

I believe both Eidlitz and Spier & Rohns were involved, but let me check that too.

Yes, the tower was removed after the fire.

Bob Cosgrove
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Hornwrecker
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Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 4:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I couldn't find any photos of the Brush St Station, so here's an overhead view of it from the 50s. Still looking.

Brush St
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Gistok
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Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 4:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fury13, it is amazing at how often in the past buildings were modernized. Lots of buildings downtown were also modernized, in some cases severely.

Grand Circus Park had the Whitney, Statler and the former Michigan Mutual Building (former Stroh's HQ) modernized. The top of the Whitney looks different than circa 1920. The Statler lost its top balistrade and Grecian Urns.

But the Michigan Mutual Building really looks different. It used to have 4 corner pinnacled pavilions on top, each of which looked like a wedding cake confection. Hornwrecker, can you find that one?
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Bob_cosgrove
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Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 4:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fury 13 asked in a Sept 20 posting if Woodbridge extended behind the 3rd Street Station. The answer is no, Woodbridge angled into West Jefferson at 1st (Cass).
Bob Cosgrove
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Hornwrecker
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Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 4:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just found an interesting view of the MC station from an accident that happened November 12, 1906. Thus was justified the cost of adding bumpers to the ends of the tracks.

MC 1906-1

MC 1906-2

Gistok, what, so now I'm the photo guy? I'll get on it, but will have to search by area, as the names come up with nada.
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Bob_cosgrove
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Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 6:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It appears from the slope-back tender that this was a switch engine, which went off the end of the stub track. What's the source on these photos? I would guess they're Detroit Publishing Company from the Library of Congress, but haven't checked.

Bob Cosgrove
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Hornwrecker
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Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 9:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes Bob, they're from the Detroit Pub Co collection at the Library of Congress. Here's the link in case anyone doesn't have it:

http://rs6.loc.gov/detroit/dethome.html

This is a blow-up of a 1901 map of Detroit, showing the location of the three depots.



(Message edited by Hornwrecker on September 20, 2005)
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Burnsie
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Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 10:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A good color photo from the '60s of the 3rd MC Depot is in the Morning Sun book, "New York Central Facilities In Color." Sometime I'll get around to scanning it for here. I don't have a home scanner yet. The 3rd depot was a very busy freight house until the less than carload traffic dried up in the '50s/early '60s.

There are a few nice shots of the Brush St. station in the Morning Sun books, "Grand Trunk Western in Color" vol. 1 and 2. I'll scan those eventually. With copyright disclaimers!

The David Whitney Bldg. had *a lot* of alterations to all parts of the sides as well as the top. The urns on the Statler were removed by WWII, IIRC (from looking at a photo in the Arcadia Pub. book). Didn't Mayor Cobo (or Miriani?) later on call for removal of cornices, trim and "gingerbread" after some lady got beaned on the head?

Interestingly, practically the only decorative element of Hudson's removed was the iron grillwork around the 2nd floor French windows. To make window washing easier, I guess.
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Hornwrecker
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Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 10:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

From the WSU photo archive comes this 1950s shot of the MC/NYC coach yard. Can anyone help place the location of this?

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Burnsie
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Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 10:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hornwrecker, that photo was taken from the existing MC Depot. The building visible in lower right is the commissary/passenger car servicing building, fronting on 17th St. It was gone by 1978 and probably was out of use before Amtrak started up.
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Hornwrecker
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Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 11:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Burnsie, the angle it was taken at and the hazy background was throwing me. I think I have some photos in my Pere Marquette Power book, but alas, no scanner yet.

I'll have to start a thread about Detroit. online photo archives, maps, etc... if there hasn't been one already.
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Busterwmu
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Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 12:45 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The view does look westish (toward the chicago end of the line) from the Michigan Central depot of 1913. Just under that concrete wall at the bottom is Vernor Ave and just out of view to the left is the viaduct that still carries trains over the road.

Very cool photo, although I don't know about the date since I see little streamlined equipment in the photo...perhaps it is during the 1930s instead, before the modern consists for the Mercury and Twilight Limited arrived?
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Psip
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Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 1:09 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What is that tower in the bottom center.. It looks like an ash loading tower and hopper. But it doesn't make sense being in the passenger yard. Any thoughts?
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Busterwmu
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Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 11:24 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Actually, I wish to revise my penultimate post.... the 1950s would be a suitable time frame for this photo. I see a couple streamlines coaches in the yard (but you have to look close, and most of the coaches in the yard are older heavyweight styles), and I also see NYC EMD switchers at the engine house at upper left... perhaps SW7s or NW2s.
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Jjaba
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Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 1:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

jjaba took the Wolverine and Twilight Limited, New York Central trains from MCS many times. He also rode on the steamers in the 1940s to Chicago.

The reason jjaba picked Western Michigan Univ. in Kalamazoo in 1959 for college was the NYC train service. He would take the Wyoming bus to Michigan Avenue bus to the depot.

jjaba, Westsider.
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Missnmich
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Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 3:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good work folks.
This thread is a prime example of why I love the forum so much.



...good Karma in rice country ...
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Hornwrecker
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Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 4:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Finally located some photos of GTW's Brush Street Station. These are from the WSU archives, and taken during the 1920s:









I looked at a blow up of the MC coach yard, and what I thought was an RS, might be a SW. Too hard to tell, as in some magnifications it looks like a rounded roof.

As to that hopper, next to the building with the bumper on the outside, one can only guess. My guess is that it is solid waste from when the had to clean out the waste system tanks in the yard. I'm sure a friend of the mayor had the sludge hauling contract.
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Jjaba
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Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 4:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hornwrecker making jokes, confusing now with then.
Great pictures. Thanks.

jjaba, LOL.
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The_rock
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Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 5:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hornwrecker--very nostalgic shots of the Brush Street station. I wonder if that building was the same one I frequented in the late 40's or was it replaced. The inside shot of the lobby and ticket office seems to ring a bell and I recall the tracks and the overhangs of the different roofs as engine # 6327 pulled out from the station, went East and then swung North under E. Jefferson and continued North til the first stop ( Milwaukee Junction ).
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Jjaba
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Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 5:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rock, name us all the stops on the Grank Trunk commuter? Did it go past Pontiac? Just one line from downtown Detroit?
jjaba, sadly never on that train.
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Hornwrecker
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Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 5:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rock, that's the same station, it just looks different because everything around it changed. It sure isn't as "imposing" as I remember it. I've got a few timetables in my GT book that show most trains stopped at Pontiac, but a couple a day went up to the far north-side, Durand, so it was best not to fall asleep too soundly.
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The_rock
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Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 5:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Milwaukee Junction-Fair Grounds ( not usually a "stop")- Ferndale-Royal Oak, Birmingham ( You knew you were approaching B'ham when you went by the Oak Drive In Theatre), Charring Cross ( Bloomfield),then Pontiac. The train had a neat club car at the end. That's as far as I can go, jjaba. Lord, its been nearly 60 years!
The B'ham station was really beautiful.Mr. Wichman was the station master.He actually had a telegraph in his office. I think its now a restaurant.Maybe that's even gone now.
I think somewhere in my slide collection is a picture of one of those beautiful Grand Trunk steam engines which is now out at the Illinois Railroad museum.
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Psip
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Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 7:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The_rock... As luck would have it the Birmingham station is a restrauant. They named it after you! it called The Big Rock !
http://www.bigrockchophouse.co m/introduction.htm
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Jjaba
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Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 7:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wonderful link, Psip. Thanks.

The Rock has a fine memory. Sixty, schmixty, the Rock does just fine.

Is boating season done? Can we wear socks again in The Pointes?
jjaba, breaking out the Mackinaw.
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Burnsie
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Posted From: 35.12.24.64
Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 8:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hornwrecker-- I doubt that was a solid-waste collection point in the photo; such stuff wouldn't be carried in open hoppers, even in pre-EPA days. And the vast majority if not all the passenger cars of the era had their toilets dump directly onto the tracks. Signs were always posted to refrain from flushing when the train was sitting in the station.

However, perhaps there actually was some sort of sewage collection system for when people boarded their cars hours before the train departed, or disembarked hours after arrival? I'm thinking of sleeping cars that originated or terminated at Detroit and were switched into/ out of other trains passing through.

Smaller stations had "honey buckets" placed under the toilet outlets in such circumstances, but I'd doubt the MC Depot would have had such a primitive setup. Anybody know?
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Saruthma
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Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 68.60.160.65
Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 8:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was travelling down John R from 8 mile the other day on my way to the Dakota Inn and noticed what seemed to possibly be an old train-related building on the east side of the street where the railroad crosses above John R, just north of 7 mile. The building is covered in over growth. Was this a maintenance building or a passenger station? Something else entirely? Did that track even carry passengers?

Thanks,

saruthma
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Jjaba
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Posted From: 24.22.82.162
Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 8:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sarouthma, welcome to the Forum, Post #1.

jjaba on the Westside.
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Douglasm
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Post Number: 368
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Posted From: 66.189.178.54
Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 9:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Anybody know what ever happened to the model railroad club that had a big layout in the upper floor of the Birmingham depot?
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Hornwrecker
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Posted From: 63.41.8.92
Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 9:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here's a closeup of the clock tower on Union Station for Fury, as he seems to enjoy the details. If you can enlarge the photo, you'll notice a man standing on a board in front of one of the clock faces, with no harness or safetly lines. Pre-OSHA days.



Burnsie, I was stretching it a bit so I could make a sludge hauling joke.

Off to find a photo of the B'ham station for the Rock.
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Busterwmu
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Posted From: 24.247.221.194
Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 10:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

jjaba-
I selected Western Michigan on some of the same grounds you did back in '59. While the Amtrak service is not quite that of the Limiteds and Mercury's of NYC days, Amtrak's service is confortable, convenient, and affordable for students. Whole cars will be full of students on a weekend going home east or west. Back and forth from Kalamazoo to Dearborn for me, aboard the heritage NYC named Twilight Limited and Wolverine. They're actually doing quite a bit of work right now at the Kalamazoo Amtrak station, which dates from 1887. I enjoy hearing your stories of the New York Central trains from days gone by.
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Hornwrecker
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Posted From: 63.41.8.92
Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 10:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Birmingham Station platform from the late 30s {WSU archive}. They must eagerly be awaiting the arrival of The Rock, little do they know that they are a decade too early.



I used to ride the Amtrak to Chicago and then CNW up to Great Lakes Naval Station, it seems like most of the passengers got off in K'zoo. That train sure got crowded around the holidays. Also remember riding the NYC RDCs back from Jackson to MC Depot in the 60s.
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Lowell
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Posted From: 66.167.210.131
Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 11:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What a loss Union station is.

Great thread all. Thanks.
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Hornwrecker
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Posted From: 63.41.8.92
Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 12:06 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK, here's a photo that I'm not sure of, since it's so damn old.

This is labeled as Michigan Central Roundhouse and Freight Station from WSU archive.



I'm thinking that this is from around 1860, plus or minus a decade or so. There is a sign on the building behind the freight station saying Foote and Co painted on a wall.

Is this Detroit? Would this be the support facilities for the original Third St MC Station if it is?

Sure is a cool looking roundhouse, almost like the one at the B&O museum.
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Psip
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Posted From: 69.246.13.131
Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 12:09 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To all of you eagle eyes out there, why has no one noticed on the map that Hornwrecker posted,
Champlain is listed as the name of Lafayette?
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Fury13
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Posted From: 69.14.122.204
Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 12:20 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

E. Lafayette was Champlain.
W. Lafayette was Lafayette.

Lower Washington Blvd. was Wayne St.

Part of Mack Ave. was Rowena.

E. Vernor, was, I believe, Waterloo.

The part of Vernor Hwy. that became the Fisher Freeway was (I think) High St.
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Psip
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Posted From: 69.246.13.131
Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 12:22 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

wow interesting Fury, When did the names change?
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Fury13
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Posted From: 69.14.122.204
Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 12:27 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They didn't all change at the same time... Wayne Street retained its name into the '30s or '40s, if I remember correctly.

Lots of street names changed in the first couple decades of the 20th century. And, Mack used to start a few blocks east of Woodward, but then the city linked it with Rowena, which started right at Woodward. Then the name "Mack" was given to the entire length of the street.
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Fury13
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Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 12:29 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great shot of the Fort St. Union Station clock tower, Hornwrecker. What a jewel that place was.
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Psip
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Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 12:32 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you Fury, I did not know that.
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Burnsie
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Posted From: 67.177.80.65
Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 1:02 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hornwrecker, that photo is indeed of Detroit, looking east. Belle Isle is in the background. The tracks ended at 3rd St. and what we see are engine servicing and freight house facilities. The passenger depot is to the north, just out of the picture.
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The_rock
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Posted From: 68.42.249.61
Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 9:49 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

PSIP---The old Bham station became first a fancy restaurant and I think the original name was "Eaton Street Station". But at least the beautiful old building is still around.

Hornwrecker--Thanks for the pix of the station, too. Actually the station had two different platforms, separated by the parallel tracks in between.

I'd say your photo shows commuters standing on the North-Bound platform, perhaps waiting to catch #56 to Durand.Of course, it could be the South(Detroit) bound platform, too. Going North about 100 yards and you would cross over the Maple viaduct on the way to Pontiac.
Each platform had the scroll work with BIRMINGHAM spelled out on it. I wonder if you are even allowed up there anymore. I think the "new" station is to the South of the original one.
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Hornwrecker
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Posted From: 63.41.40.48
Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 12:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here's an interior shot of the Grand Trunk Western's ticket office. This is a bit more impressive than the interior shot of the Brush St. Station above.



(Message edited by Hornwrecker on September 22, 2005)
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Fury13
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Posted From: 69.14.122.204
Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 12:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is the ticket office not today's Foran's Pub on Woodward?
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Jjaba
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Posted From: 24.22.82.162
Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 2:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Grand Trunk Ticket office is intact and vacant. You can peek in the windows. It is next to Gus' Coney Island on Woodward and Larned.

jjaba was just by there. Give a peek and look at the vaulted ceiling, still intact.

The Rock has a memory like a steel trap. Incredible details of Birmingham, Rock.

Are you in that picture or any relatives? Get out the tri-focals and let us know. BTW, is boating season ended and can jjaba wear socks now?

jjaba, Proudly Westside.
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Hornwrecker
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Posted From: 63.41.8.217
Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 4:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jjaba, nice to know that it still exists.

A look south down Third, with a few spires, mundane and otherwise:

Fort and Third
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Jams
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Posted From: 68.79.166.127
Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 5:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes it is Forans, not vacant, only open at night.
It's changing hands, John's last night is Oct 29.
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The_rock
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Post Number: 826
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Posted From: 68.42.249.61
Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 5:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

jjaba-how 'bout Woodward and Congress? Maybe even a tad North of Congress on the East side of Woodward, next to Gus's spot and down from the old Nicholson Steak House, and even a tad north of the Vinton Building?
After a tough day at the office ( or in the court room), we might gather for a quick pop at that place before retruning to the offrice for a few more billable hours.
I hope that Foran's(GT) Pub is still going strong, but I gotta admit, other than the Dime Building for the monthly haircut, I have not been down there for a few years.
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Jams
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Posted From: 68.79.166.127
Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 5:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

jjaba seems to get confused about where he is when he crosses the median on Woodward. :-)
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The_rock
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Posted From: 68.42.249.61
Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 5:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

jjaba know Detroit about as well as anyone I have ever met and I have met a lot of folks in my day.
Gus' Coney Isle used to have a room upstairs, often for the overflow crowd not only from downstairs but from Foran's next door.
What was that room called? Starlight Room or something like that!

I don't recognize ayone on the platform of the Bham train station. A tad before ( not much) my recollections of that wonderful old station.

The chap on the far right end with straw hat and brief case may have been headed to the court house in Pontiac, but where or where were those pretty gals a-going?

Maybe thats the South- bound platform and they were all going to a matinee at the Broadway Capitol or the Madison, dinner in the Tuller dining room, and hopefully catching the 6:30 PM train back home.
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Jams
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Posted From: 68.79.166.127
Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 5:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree about jjaba's knowledge, but it's fun to play his game about the Eastside.

I've much respect for him and his contributions to this forum.
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Jjaba
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Posted From: 24.22.82.162
Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 8:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jams and Rock Thanks for the props.
Ok, Congress and Woodward for Gus'.

I thought jjaba saw The Rock at Detroit Brewing Co. for Forum Social Club event recently. That's downtown, Rock.

jjaba ran into one of those Birmingham girls, a Suzy Cohen, at Shiek Cafe. She was belly dancing under the name Nadjia. She'd take the Grand Trunk downtown, then look for a real grand trunk to bed with for the night. jjaba would see her at the Grand Trunk Station in the morning on his way to work at the bus station Travelers Aid booth.

Shelly Goldwasser did the same thing at Cedar's of Lebanon under the name of Sasha.

jjaba was never fooled by those Jewish girls out just having fun.

jjaba, Westside Bar Mitzvah Bukkor.
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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 123
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 63.41.40.87
Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 10:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is an aerial view looking down Fort St towards Downtown, taken in the 20s. You building geeks out there should be able to pin down a time as the Penobscot is under construction. Just follow Fort down from the stub of the Penob, and look for the Bob-Lo boat on steroids at the foot of Third, and follow over to the Union Station.



Here is a close-up of Michigan Central's Third St. Station:



Close-up of Fort St. Union Station:



{I think I got all of the streets in correctly, still learning PS.}
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The_rock
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Posted From: 68.42.249.61
Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 8:42 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hornwrecker- No Boblo boat with steroids. I think that's the GREATER DETROIT of the old D and C Line!!
Those old black and white shots are teriffic. Thanks much.
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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 124
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Posted From: 63.41.8.83
Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 12:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rock, the waterfront sure had some life back then. Imagine all of the dive bars near there to keep the crews lubricated. Waiting for a GL boat history thread to start searching for photos.

PSIP wanted to see a close-up of the man working on the clock tower:

Fort St Clock

Could this be a young Jjaba earning a few extra shekels to spend on belly dancers, doing a Harold Lloyd impersonation? It is on the Westside, afterall.

Horwrecker, goyishe Nortown

(Message edited by Hornwrecker on September 23, 2005)
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Jjaba
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Post Number: 2380
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Posted From: 24.22.82.162
Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 2:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's jjaba's Uncle Mordechai who in Poland was the first Telephone Pole. He came to America, was trained by Mohawks, and did the ironwork on Detroit skyscrapers.

As a favor, he maintained clock faces on the Union Station. jjaba was born much later. Uncle did like to see the belly dancers on Sat. night after a day in shul. Thanks Horn...

jjaba, coach class on the Wabash Cannonball.
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Krapug
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Post Number: 24
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Posted From: 24.190.81.178
Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 2:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Union Station/Fort Street Station can also be seen in the movie oft discussed here "Detroit
9000". A lengthy hideout/chase/shootout scene was filmed at the then abandoned station.
The waiting room and approach tracks were used in this filming.

Ken

See my review of this gem of a movie on Amazon.
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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 125
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Posted From: 63.41.40.28
Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 4:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Krapug, I've never seen that movie, and will look for it, if only for the station. Here's the imdb page on it.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt00 69966/

Sorry Jjaba, I was thrown by the striking resemblance with the original Telephone Pole. It sounds like he was more successful than one of my relatives who tried to break into the Pole Vault.

Way up above, Saruthma, asked about a structure on the GT near 7 Mile. The only passenger stops listed are for Highland Park, and Ferndale closest to this location, so it is most likely a maintainace shed of some kind, as a signally shed would probably be better maintained.
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Krapug
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Posted From: 24.190.81.178
Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 4:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hornwrecker:

If you have never seen Detroit 9000 is also features a number of downtown landmarks that are either no more, or still abandoned.
The political fund raising scene was filmed in the Grand Ballroom of the then Sheraton-Caddilac Hotel, and when the "Bad Guys" flee the hotel, you see an evening shot of Hudson's Woodward Avenue Display Windows.

Ken
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Jjaba
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Posted From: 24.22.82.162
Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 6:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mordechai's son, jjaba's cousin Pesach, attended the Kowalski Dental School for those of Polish Extraction.
It was located in the Polish shtetl near Michigan Ave. and Junction on the Westside.
jjaba
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Hornwrecker
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Post Number: 126
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Posted From: 63.41.8.56
Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 12:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here's a photo of the elusive Highland Park GTW station taken during the 20s from the WSU archives. This is the only photo of it that I've seen, and I have no idea where it was, and how long it lasted.

Highland Park GTW

And for good measure, here is Ferndale. I don't care what anyone says, it looks like a pumping station to me.

Ferndale GTW

Coming soon: Fort St Station from the south side.
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Jjaba
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Posted From: 24.22.82.162
Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 12:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

After considerable research, jjaba can report that the Highland Park, Michigan GT Station is near the RR tracks.

The Ferndale Station looks very stout, and does resemble a pumping station of the era.

jjaba, not an expert on suburbs.
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Hornwrecker
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Post Number: 133
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Posted From: 63.41.24.134
Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 10:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I finally found an interior shot of Fort Street Union Depot.

Fort St Station interior

... and a shot showing the brand new sound "device" being shown off for the papers.

Fort St sound

The sign above the device says "RCA Commercial..."

Both of these photos, again, are from the WSU online photo archives.

http://dlxs.lib.wayne.edu/cgi/i/image/image-idx?c=vmc
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Douglasm
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Posted From: 66.189.178.54
Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 10:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Ferndale station had been closed as a ticket office as early as the early '60's, and was, I believe the headquarters for the Grand Trunk Western Railroad Police. The only open stations on the line were Royal Oak, Birmingham, and Pontiac, because the inter-city trains stopped there.
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Jjaba
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Posted From: 24.22.82.162
Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 12:53 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hornwrecker's photo looks like Philo Farnsworth of Rexberg, Idaho showing off his invention, the television. What a novel idea.

jjaba, Westsider.
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Burnsie
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Username: Burnsie

Post Number: 317
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Posted From: 141.216.1.4
Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 9:42 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I waited too long to take pics of the GT Royal Oak depot (the last version). It was torn down a few years ago to make room for a DTE building. Following pics are from michiganrailroads.com

Royal Oak new depot

Old depot: Old depot 1

Old depot 2: Old depot 2:
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The_rock
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Post Number: 831
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Posted From: 70.176.17.47
Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 1:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This really neat railroad post continues. Great input by Forumers. I am visiting the McCormick-Stillman Railroad Park in Scottsdale AZ this morning. No Union Station or GTW, but they have steam engines, diesels, restored'07 locomotive, etc.
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Douglasm
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Posted From: 66.189.178.54
Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 5:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gawd, memories. At the base of the stairs in the RO depot (just inside the doors on the right) was a storage room full of boxes with copies of form 19's and 31's (train order forms). The agent used to let me and my friends in to look through them. "Extra 6321 hold at RO for Extra 8302 switching" That kind of thing.

The old depot photos, are they from when the GT paralleled Woodward?
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Burnsie
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Post Number: 321
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Posted From: 35.12.20.160
Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 8:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The old Royal Oak depot was located south of where the track started curving over to Woodward. Exactly where I don't know, but probably in the vicinity of Washington. The old depot actually remained in use until 1950 (according to michiganrailroads.com)
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Hornwrecker
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Post Number: 138
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Posted From: 63.41.8.9
Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 10:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is Detroit's other, other, other {I think I have enough others} train station found in the WSU archives.

This is the Grand Trunk Western station that was located at Woodward and Baltimore. The pic is probably from the early 30s, and looking at a map, was on the western leg of the Milwaukee Junction Wye. I think that this structure was torn down shortly after this was taken. I haven't seen any timetables with any passenger trains down this line of the GT.

GTW Woodward at Baltimore station

So, was this the original New Center Station, before there was a New Center?
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Caquail
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Posted From: 4.249.87.64
Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 10:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If the station above is at Baltimore and Woodward on the west side of Woodward that is the site of the present Amtrak station. There was also a New York Central depot in the New Center that was in use until the 1960s I believe it was located on the south side of the tracks on the East side of Woodward.
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Jjaba
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Posted From: 24.22.82.162
Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 10:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The area became New Center in the late 1920s when GM and Fisher Bldgs. went up.
jjaba
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Hornwrecker
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Posted From: 63.41.8.9
Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 11:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the info on the New Center area, I'm catching up on MC/NYC, and GTW stuff. I spent my wayward youth on things Pennsy. I've still got more material on Fort St in the pipeline.
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Jjaba
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Posted From: 24.22.82.162
Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 12:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hornwrecker makes this thread very fascinating. Thanks.
jjaba
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Hornwrecker
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Post Number: 142
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Posted From: 63.41.8.95
Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 1:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jjaba, Hornwrecker humbly thanks you. Just get your references ready for the Old Car Factory thread, I hit a goldmine of obscure makers photographs.

Photo time: Again from the WSU archives, this is taken from a 1958 aerial photo of the riverfront.



A closeup of the stations, with the Lodge being tunneled under Union Station, and the remnants of MC Third St near the river. Note the Cobo Corkscrew iron.

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Rsa
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Post Number: 542
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Posted From: 69.213.81.24
Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 1:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

wait...what's that tall building behind the city county building? looks to be right where the comerica tower is today. or is it just the perspective that makes the rear of the first national building look strange?
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Hornwrecker
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Post Number: 145
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Posted From: 63.41.40.215
Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 4:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rsa, does this image help? It's on Congress, if that helps.

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Rsa
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Posted From: 69.213.81.24
Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 5:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

yup, that helps. yup, it is the back of the first national building. thanx hornwrecker!
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Burnsie
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Posted From: 67.177.80.65
Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 6:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've also never seen any timetables which show GTW passenger trains on the line from Milwaukee Jct. to West Detroit. The photo Hornwrecker found is likely of the MC station.
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Douglasm
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Post Number: 378
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Posted From: 66.189.178.54
Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 7:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Speaking of service to unusual places....
.....probably one of the most common photos of the CN ferry Lansdowne is one with passenger cars on it. Was there ever GTW/CN connecting service using the boats? On the US side, the ferry dock was only about 100 yards from Brush Street Station.
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Hornwrecker
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Post Number: 147
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Posted From: 63.41.8.230
Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 11:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm tending to go with the MC origins of that station for Woodward and Baltimore. I wonder if anyclues as to which tracks those could be are in the photo.

Here's a platform shot from Rochester for any NYC fans. The Bee Liners at the feedmill.

NYC RDCs at Rochester

And for Jjaba who expressed interest in cabs on another thread; here's a cab at Fort St Union Station.

Fort St Cabs
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Jjaba
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Post Number: 2419
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Posted From: 24.22.82.162
Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 4:54 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That coldass horse is waiting for jjaba coming in on the Wabash Cannonball from St. Louis. He'll have to trudge through the snow to Northwest Detroit in the blizzard. Poor bastard!
jjaba
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Bob_cosgrove
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Post Number: 240
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Posted From: 207.74.111.29
Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 5:04 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The photo Hornwrecker posted on Sept 21 is indeed the Michigan Central enclosed roundhouse at the foot of 3rd Street. The MC 3rd Street passenger station is in the upper right corner.

Bob Cosgrove
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Toolbox
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Post Number: 674
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Posted From: 65.196.220.198
Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 12:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

THat shot of the Rochester Platform is looking south towards the Rochester Elevator. The tracks are long gone but the station is still there and the Elevator will be moved down the tracks a mile and a half, it will be replaced by condos.

Who remembers the resturant in Rochester that was in the streamline cars?????
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Bob_cosgrove
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Post Number: 242
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Posted From: 207.74.110.191
Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 5:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Those car in the Rochester restaurant weren't streamliners, they were 1920 and 1930 heavyweights modified with some streamlining added later.

Bob Cosgrove
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Hardhat
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Posted From: 69.209.185.195
Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 7:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fascinating thread...
The pics make all the difference Hornwrecker.
Thanks.
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Jjaba
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Post Number: 2421
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Posted From: 24.22.82.162
Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 8:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hardhat tells it like it tis, eh.
jjaba
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Bob_cosgrove
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Post Number: 243
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Posted From: 207.74.110.187
Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 9:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

On September 20 Hornwrecker posted this photo of Michigan Central Depot Coach yard saying, "From the WSU photo archive comes this 1950s shot of the MC/NYC coach yard. Can anyone help place the location of this?"

It was immediately to the west of the station and north of the station tracks, where the Amshack station was when at this location 1988-c.1998.

Bob Cosgrove
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Dodgemain
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Username: Dodgemain

Post Number: 48
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Posted From: 68.41.191.58
Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 9:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

These history threads are why I joined the forum. I'm getting an education here. Keep up the great work. Can't get enough!
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Burnsie
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Post Number: 324
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Posted From: 67.177.80.65
Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 9:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

MC's Bay City Branch and GTW paralleled each other from West Detroit to where the MC line veered to the north, east of Milwaukee Jct. Or did one actually have trackage rights on the other from West Detroit to Milwaukee Jct.?

I know for certain that waaay back in the day, the Lake Shore & Michigan Southern (merged into NYC in 1914) ran along that route, then curved over at Milwaukee Jct. to run along the GTW line into Brush St.

The Amshack at Rose St. closed in early 1994, in conjunction with the shifting of Amtrak's terminus from Detroit to Pontiac and the opening of the station at Woodward & Baltimore (a "shithole," according to an Amtrak agent I talked to recently). Of course, the Rose St. structure was hardly any better.
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Hornwrecker
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Post Number: 149
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Posted From: 63.41.8.139
Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 11:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK Burnsie, I think I found out where that GTW line went. In my "The Nickel Plate Story" book, it says that GT ran parallel to the MC down to Delray, then had trackage rights over 3 miles of track on Wabash to Trenton, where it interchanged with the D&TSL, which ran down to Lang Yard in Toledo by other trackage rights that I won't go into seeing as that is in another state. The Detroit and Toledo Shore Line was jointly owned by GTW and the Nickel Plate Road. I remember D&TSL screaming by the Outer Drive and 7 Mile crossings on their way up to Port Huron on run-throughs.

I didn't know about the Lake Shore running in on those tracks. That explains the LS&MS car ferry slip shown in the 1901 map above.
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Bob_cosgrove
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Post Number: 244
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Posted From: 207.74.110.167
Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 12:12 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One previous answer to this thread said that Brush Street Station was only used by Grand Trunk Western. That was true in later years, but up until the early 20th Century it also served the Lake Shore & Michigan Southern's New York Central mainline Buffalo to Chicago through Toledo) branch from Toledo to Detroit. The now-removed southern leg of the diamond at Milwaukee Junction is known as Lake Shore Junction. This despite the fact the LS&MS and Michigan Central were both Vanderbilt roads, the MC always had their own stations. And earlier, Brush Street had served the Wabash.

Bob Cosgrove
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Douglasm
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Posted From: 66.189.178.54
Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 8:06 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fasinating, Bob. Was Brush Street Station at one time bigger to hold all this traffic? I remember only 5 or 6 tracks and a "reletively" small waiting room.
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Bob_cosgrove
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Posted From: 207.74.110.203
Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 10:37 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No, Brush Street was long the same track configuration. In the early 1960's receiving tracks under the platform canopies had additional tracks running parallel to the river and the ferry slip, which could be used, but were probably mostly coach storage. The outsiide two tracks next to Atwater held a GTW business car at the station stub end. The GTW then was mostly commuter service, although they had several through trains to Chicago, but never as many as the shorter New York Central.

Bob Cosgrove
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Hornwrecker
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Post Number: 150
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Posted From: 63.41.40.248
Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 12:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here's a view of Union Depot from a photo taken at 2nd and the waterfront. Interesting to compare the differences from the pic from 1958.

Union Station from waterfront 30s
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Psip
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Username: Psip

Post Number: 311
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Posted From: 69.246.13.131
Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 12:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To help get my bearings here is a google map with the stations pasted on it.
Union google 1
and a closer look
Union google 2
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Jjaba
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Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 2424
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Posted From: 24.22.82.162
Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 1:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Excellent work Psip. Thanks for the photos and the memories. The interface of the John C. Lodge Expy. and the Union Station brings it all home.
jjaba, in my early Corvette testing out the new Lodge. Now we can get downtown in 7 minutes. Good bye Grand River Avenue.
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Hornwrecker
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Post Number: 152
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Posted From: 63.41.8.133
Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 11:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Your cabbie awaits, Jjaba...

Union Station Cabbie

...there's an extra nickel in it, if you don't spare the horse.

A more artistic shot of Brush St. Station platform.

Brush St Station platform

{both from WSU}
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Jjaba
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Post Number: 2436
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Posted From: 24.22.82.162
Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 2:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Take jjaba over to Navin Field. He wants to catch a ballgame. He'd walk but it's too muddy and jjaba is tired from a hard night's journey in from Chillicothe. Weather looks like a dusting in April.

jjaba, Westsider.
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Psip
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Post Number: 316
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Posted From: 69.246.13.131
Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 3:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cabbie: I am sorry Mr. Jjaba Esq. Navin Field will not be ready to games until 1896, as you can see going down Michigan Ave>
Mich At Trumble
Ahh, here we are, Michigan and Trumble.. Well there is a hay market. No sign of a, what did you say? Navin Field? Who is he?
Mich and Trumb
Well, if it is a ball game you are looking for, perhaps you would like to visit our brand new recreation park.
Rec Park
Jjaba: Someday there will be a ballpark on the Westside!
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Jjaba
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Post Number: 2437
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Posted From: 24.22.82.162
Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 3:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

jjaba spells it "Trumbull." Perhaps Psip and jjaba's cab driver Wilhelm got the wrong street.

That's jjaba's uncle Schmeul's clothing store with his cousin, Rivka, across the street going into Herschel's Candy Store for a lollipop.
Thanks. Great photos.

We were there on opening day when Frank Navin built his ballpark up the street.

Notice those pathetic Eastsiders huddled in that silly-ass little stadium with their wagons in the mud. Frank Navin changed all that on The Corner. We took the Trumbull streetcar.

jjaba, Proudly a Westside Bar Mitzvah Bukkor.
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Psip
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Post Number: 317
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Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 4:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

For connection to the great white north
Detroiter
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The_rock
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Username: The_rock

Post Number: 837
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.42.251.225
Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 10:06 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nice shot of the old DETROIT, Psip. She was built as a steamer in '04 in Ecorse, and I used to see her from my law office window in the Guardian Building after she had been converted to a push-barge, hauling 22 railroad cars between Detroit and Windsor for the Norfolk and Western RR.
There has always been a close relationship between the railroads and water traffic in Michigan. Many different types of vessels were adopted to transfer railroad cars across Lake Michigan, The Straits, Detroit River etc.
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Jjaba
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Post Number: 2449
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Posted From: 24.22.82.162
Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 4:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Very interesting comments, Rock. What's in the background of the river shot? Looks like a 3 stack smoker.
Nobody knows the Detroit River like The Rock with 30 yrs. of logs from his Guardian Bldg. perch.
jjaba once saw him on the Bob-lo Boat with his notepad recording the traffic. jjaba was headed for "The Mouse" and The Rock was working the river.
jjaba
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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 161
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Posted From: 63.41.40.100
Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 11:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The_rock, Psip and I have a distant cousin who was a captain on the Detroit River ferries until they went kaput. He had one of those foreign Norwegian names, it didn't even end in a -ski. I don't think we ever met this black sheep of the family; I wish I did.

It is getting more difficult to find pics of the Union Depot, and am having to resort to oblique ways to find it in the shot. I did find what would have been a great aerial shot of the MC Third Station, but it is so degraded that it would take way too much time to restore. However, whilst I read a book about old Detroit, I found out that one of the top hotels was the Wayne Hotel, on Third across from the MC Station. Hornwrecker's mouse-trap of a mind recalls seeing old photos of this, on one of his searches.

So with little ado, here is a shot of the top of the towers of both stations as viewed from the river.

Wayne Hotel from river

Ta-daa!

OK, well that shot sucked, but by now you want to see the Wayne Hotel...

Wayne Hotel

Not too impressive, but it is when you find out that this is the place where Detroit's first automobile show was held in 1901! The owner Jim Hayes was known as a local wit and bon vivant, kind of a Jjaba & rock combined, of his times, and he maintained THREE bars in the establishment for his patrons.

So now you're saying to yourself, but Hornwrecker that's interesting, but so what: I'll tell you so what. This was attached to the Wayne Hotel on the river side.

Wayne Hotel Pavillion

This was the Pavillion, where you could roller-skate, drink, dance, carouse, watch the river traffic, or catch a ferry to Belle Isle for ten cents.

I my opinion the Pavilion is a sad loss to that little space of green the exists at the river, below the JLA.

Time for someone to give some history on The Wayne.

(Message edited by Hornwrecker on October 01, 2005)