  Mikem Member Username: Mikem Post Number: 2208 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.43.15.105 |
I might have more info if I weren't too lazy to look through my voulumes on the DSR history. If I remember correctly, they were built rather late (mid-1920's) once the city took ownership of the streetcar system. The car barns are still in use as a bus garage but teh old HQ building seems to have been abandoned:  The office building is on the south side of Shoemaker west of St Jean.  The barn yard extends south of the office building, between St Jean and Lillibridge, south to E Warren. | ||
Douglasm Member Username: Douglasm Post Number: 436 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.189.188.28 |
You know, I didn't realise that the PCC cars came so late. The last batch of trollys were purchased from St. Louis Car in 1949. No wonder Mexico City snapped them up so fast. Darn things were only 7 years old. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 2889 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 24.22.82.162 |
Thanks MikeM. Some of the streetcars were marked "Shoemaker" as destination. Only an Eastsider like you could tell us which line terminated there. That yard was an important terminal. jjaba remembers. | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 547 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 216.203.223.89 |
I found some old photos of the trolley that used to run up Van Dyke at a Centerline history site: http://centerline.grobbel.org/wes/photos_remainder.htm so to save them a bit of bandwidth, and put them into better shape for viewing, here they are...  The trolley at the end of the line at 10 Mile and Van Dyke. You can see the spire of the old St Clements church in the background.  The trolley crossing the Grand Trunk Western line at Van Dyke near Davison. The number on the 0-6-0 is 6760(?), but I can't find any listing of it in a GT engine roster. It looks like it has simple valve gear, and the cylinders don't match the types shown in any photos that I've found so far.  A 1920s map of the Harper line that went up to Centerline. Link to web page on various DSR lines to the burbs: http://www.michigantransitmuseum.org/history/unusual.html | ||
Treelock Member Username: Treelock Post Number: 70 Registered: 03-2005 Posted From: 67.149.59.223 |
this thread fills me with a kind of sadness. Detroit needs transportation alternatives like these. We will never realize our full potential without them. | ||
Mikem Member Username: Mikem Post Number: 2212 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.43.15.105 |
There's a building or two at the intersection of van Dyke and the GTWRR crossing that look as old as those pictures. A 1931 map of the Centerline route:   And in 1942, after it was abandoned north of Eight Mile and south of Harper:   | ||
Eric Member Username: Eric Post Number: 250 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 35.8.141.111 |
Cool thread My grandfather worked for more than 30 years at Shoemaker. Started off driving streetcars/buses retired as superintendent in the mid-70's. | ||
Jeffrey_thomas Member Username: Jeffrey_thomas Post Number: 28 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 205.188.116.201 |
in the 4o's if a major street car collision occurred in th U.S. it was transported by flat car train to the dsr highland park shops to be repaired. they even made there own streetcar trailers. they manufactured their own coaches (buses) in the thirtys. It's a shame what has happened, the city can't even run the friggin' zoo. mikem, did the maps come from schramms books? | ||
Mikem Member Username: Mikem Post Number: 2213 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.43.15.105 |
The first map came from Schramm's, the second from a history of the DSR published in the 1950's. Looking at Schramm's work, I see he labels the photo of the Centerline car crossing the GTW as instead being on Harper, crossing the Belt Line near Frontenac. Here's the field where the Shoemaker yard was constructed:  The city failed in its attempt to take over the privately owned Detroit United Railway (DUR) in 1919, so the following year it (Mayor Couzens) decided to build a competing system, municipally owned and operated. The Shoemaker yard, barns, and office were built by the city in 1921-1922 as it's base of operations. The city's street rail system started operations in February of 1921, and by May of 1922, the city finally acquired control of the DUR, merging the systems together into the Department of Street Railways (DSR). Shoemaker yard under construction with the temporary storage of 300 newly arrived street cars for the city operation:  Layout of the yard:  The ivy covered DSR HQ on Shoemaker:  | ||
Psip Member Username: Psip Post Number: 658 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 69.246.13.131 |
What a great site that Center Line page is! Here is a photo of a DUR car parked at the end of the line just slightly north of 10 mile on Van Dyke c 1914  a close up  | ||
Economy_printing Member Username: Economy_printing Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 68.34.33.20 |
I have enjoyed reading about the DSR here. There are many misconceptions about streetcars and their potential in our cities. They are more often than not seen as an antiquated and outmoded slow form of transit that was used by earlier generations in a quieter less busy time. After all, if they were that great why are they all but extinct? Of course, many will say that the automobile caused the demise of transit. While this is true for the most part it does not mean that streetcars have no place in our cities. Since the mid 20th century and even earlier in some cases the streetcar was presented by the movers and shakers of our country as old and out dated. We were taught that we need to be mobile. Fixed rail was not seen as positive. Freeways were the way of the future. Life was going to be like the Jetsons. Our architecture, our whole outlook was futuristic. Old was out. The culture that produced the wild batwing 59 Chevrolet and wild googie roadside buildings with thier boomerangs and nuclear artwork saw no place for a trolley car. In many cities, including Baltimore where I live, the local transit operations were purchased and controlled by National City Lines. This was a holding company begun in the 30's by the Fitzgerald brothers. It was owned by General Motors, Firestone, and Standard Oil as well as others in the automotive field. In most cases NCL properties were forced to buy equipment from the parent companys . This of course ment buses. Which as ridership decreased would mean more autos. Some NCL properties continued to allow streetcars to operate for a time but for the most part buses were seen as the answer to their needs. GM honcho Alfred P. Sloan stated years earlier that 90% of America rides transit to work and play. This was a market he clearly wanted to break into. NCL did not get into Detroit but its vision certainly did. The reality is that streetcars can work well. They are not slow and antiquated as people think. They can move more people faster than any other street vehicle. How can this be true? First, we must realize that hi speed on a street like Woodward Ave. is just not possible. A streetcar or a bus traveling downtown at 50 or 60 mph is ridiculous. So, how can streetcars be faster if they cant go any faster than traffic will allow? The answer is in loading and taking off from a stop. Imagine a streetcar and a bus on Woodward. Both start from the same point and pick up the same amount of passengers at each stop. Both are heading downtown. Both can operate at the same speed that the traffic will allow. The bus pulls over to the curb to pick up passengers. The streetcar is in the center and picks its passengers up there. The streetcar has double wide doors and can swallow people much faster than the bus which usually loads by single file as people drop fares in the farebox. If the streetcar has a conductor in the car in front of the rear doors than people dont even have to stop as they pass the motorman. This makes for even faster loading. When the last person boards, the car takes off. The bus is still loading because it cant handle the crowds as well. When the bus does take off it has to wait for all the traffic to pass before it can pull out. Most people dont let buses pull in front of them if they can help it. This process repeated at every stop from the suburbs to downtown will drastically slow the bus service. Some will say, yes, but the streetcar is out in the center of the street. It slows down traffic (is that a bad thing) and is dangerous for pedestrians. Safety zones for peds can solve this. The pedestrian is in the same danger in a safety zone as he is on the curb. As far as interferring with auto traffic, what is more important moving an auto with one or a few people in it or moving a streetcar with up to 100 or more passengers. Our priorities have been geared toward the auto . Is this more important? The misconception that the old days were slower and less busy is just that-a misconception. Think of wartime Detroit. What was production like then? How did the DSR handle burden of ridership. I dont have Detroit ridership figures. I do have them for Baltimore. Here the transit ridership is about 100 million a year. In 1943, the transit company carried over 267 million. This does not include the ridership on all the independant operations. Streetcars were able to transport over 5,000 people an hour during shift changes at war defense plants. In some cases car lines operated with 30 second service at full capacity. Others operated at one and two minute intervals. This was no slow antiquated trolley service. This was a well maintained operation that worked. I am sure that the same thing on an even larger scale happened in Detroit. The level of service that the DSR performed had to have been phenomenal. People today just dont know about this. Another interseting fact about streetcars is that they last. New Orleans has streetcars built in 1923. They are presently being put back into service after Katrina did its damage. Boston still uses PCC cars on the Mattapan Ashmont line that were built in 1945. Philadelphia has recently rebuilt some of their 1947 cars and put them back into service. San Francisco operates a large fleet of PCC and older cars in regular service every day. In an age where a transit authority may get 15 to 20 years out of a bus these systems are operating equipment built over a half century ago. Gee, I wonder if that is economical? Could streetcars operate today in our major cities? Maybe not on the scale that they once did. I have to think that they could still have a place though. | ||
Douglasm Member Username: Douglasm Post Number: 442 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.189.188.28 |
There's an interesting article in this month's TRAINS magazine about the demise of the streetcar, and some of the myth debunking when it comes to conspiricy. Major advantages of busses are flexability--they're not limited to running on track, maintenance--no overhead lines or track to maintain, and their ability to load from the curb, among others..... | ||
Economy_printing Member Username: Economy_printing Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 68.34.33.20 |
I dont want to suggest that National City Lines was involved in a conspiracy. They did take advantage of economics of the times which of course makes sense. People were leaving public transit in droves. Here in Baltimore the BTC (Baltimore Transit Company) lost over a million riders a year following WWII for at least 25 years in a row. I am sure statistics in Detroit are comparable. Ridership must be high to warrent streetcar operation. When a line becomes medium or light in density rail operation is not justified. The opposite holds true also. A transit line with extremely high ridership could utilize subway or some form of heavier rapid transit. As ridership dropped nationwide in this country streetcars were replaced by bus. NCL certainly benefitted from this. However, not all lines fell to medium or low denisity. Some service in many cities could have been better served by rail while others were better served by bus. While NCL was not a conspiracy they were certainly found guilty in court for forcing contracts which allowed no provision for rail service to survive. Detroit Street Railways suffered from other forms of mismanagement. How else could a system with a practically new fleet of streamlined cars abandon everything and sell its fleet for almost nothing? Many of its streetcars were not much more than 5 or 6 years old when they forced off the street. What was that all about? | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 555 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 66.2.149.28 |
From the WSU/VMC archives, streetcars negotiating heavy traffic on Michigan Ave near Cass, from the 1920s.  | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 571 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 63.157.236.136 |
Brand, spanking new Peter Witt, DSR #1000.   WSU/VMC | ||
Jeffrey_thomas Member Username: Jeffrey_thomas Post Number: 29 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 209.69.165.10 |
don't tell'em I sent ya!: http://finance.groups.yahoo.co m/group/DSR-2-DOT/ | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 594 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 12.64.18.244 |
Who knew there was a DSR Yahoo group. Some photos of a gloomy Capitol Park on a winter's commute.    WSU/VMC | ||
Busterwmu Member Username: Busterwmu Post Number: 179 Registered: 09-2004 Posted From: 67.102.76.132 |
It was mentioned on here earlier in another thread about the ceremonial ground breaking of the new Rosa Parks Central Bus Terminal, and how a unique Detroit bus was there for the occassion. I have since found out more information about this bus, and secured a quick photo session of it with a freind of mine. Detroit Street Railways' first GM new look Model T6H-5305 coaches were delivered at a cost of $29,504.04 each on June 6, 1968 and numbered 2601-2646. These were the first new look style coaches purchased by the DSR. In 1974 DDOT assumed ownership of these coaches and the DSR fleet and the last of the fleet was retired by DDOT in 1988, some remaining in the DSR colors. We are fortunate to have 1 of the older DSR coaches preserved here in Detroit and DDOT took the care to keep #2621 around its back lot, which has even shown up in a few movies filmed in Detroit. The old girl recieved a much deserved sprucing up in 2005 and was carefully touched up by the paint shop and maintenance forces at the Shoemaker Terminal on the East Side at Warren and St. Jean for the dedication of the Rosa Parks Transit Facility to be built in Downtown Detroit. Once residing in a DDOT backlot, #2621 is now in a safe and secure location from the elements. This is the coach I'm referring to, and it remains in its DSR green and creme colors, with fluted stainless steel sides and streamlined appearence. The New Look series is also commonly referred to as the "fishbowl" buses, due to the large curved glass windows at the rear of the coach. The photos below were taken by my friend, MK, as mine have no yet been developed. Thanks to DDOT for fixing this bus up to that we have a glimpse at some transit history here in Detroit!  Driver's side of #2621, the preserved DSR New Look bus.  The door side of #2621 clearly showing it's full 40 foot length.  A rear view, clearly showing the large "Fishbowl" window at the rear, a lost feature with the rear placement of air conditioning equipment on today's buses.  DSR lettering on the side of #2621. The Department of Street Railways retained that name for 18 years after the demise of the Streetcars in 1956 before being reorganized and renamed DDOT in 1974.  Welcome Aboard! PLEASE watch your STEP!  For Your SAFETY, Please Exit by Rear Door! More photos and a better tour are available here: http://groups.msn.com/metrobus/dsr2621.msnw | ||
Douglasm Member Username: Douglasm Post Number: 447 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.189.188.28 |
Must be a "free" bus. I noticed it doesn't have a fare box. | ||
Psip Member Username: Psip Post Number: 700 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 69.246.13.131 |
The old girl needs some bus backs from some of the products that are long gone. Like: Vita Boy New Era Atlas Pop Ernest Brown for Mayor | ||
Douglasm Member Username: Douglasm Post Number: 448 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.189.188.28 |
Busterwmu..... ....you have a thing for the American Locomotive Company, or is that your friend? I tend towards RS-1's and S-2's. Is there a history out there somewhere of Detroit area transit service? I guess I'd like to know how SMART was created and what ever happened to companys like Great Lakes Transit (a Google search gets me lots of pictures of the S.S. Juniata), Martin Lines and the like..... | ||
Busterwmu Member Username: Busterwmu Post Number: 181 Registered: 09-2004 Posted From: 67.102.76.132 |
Douglas, Alco locomotives are cool (I myself can't find anything that competes with the looks of a PA-1) but it is my friend who has the Alco Century email address. He is particularly interested in the Lake State Railway of northern michigan, which operates with a fleet of classic Alco power. This link has a compiled SMART history and mentions some of those pre SEMTA bus companies: http://groups.msn.com/smartbus /history.msnw | ||
Bob_cosgrove Member Username: Bob_cosgrove Post Number: 335 Registered: 03-2005 Posted From: 67.38.25.54 |
The Detroit Historic Museum has models of Detroit Street Railways (DSR) street cars from the 1860's horse cars through the "modern" PCC cars on exhibit in the Glancy Trains exhibit. These were built c.1951 by the late Robert E. Lee, who later was the curator of The Dossin Great Lakes Museum. Another footnote that may be of interest to some. Claude Hirshfeld who was Detroit Edison Company's vice president of research headed the PCC committee that designed the "PCC" design street car in the mid-1930's. But, Detroit didn't purchase one until the late 1940's. Bob Cosgrove Glancy Trains Curator, Detroit Historical Museum | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 2922 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 192.220.139.6 |
Wonderful history and photos here. Great ride down memory lane. It is incredible to see those lines in Capitol Park, huddled masses of Eastsiders trying to get out to the wonderful Westside for work, Olympia, Riviera Theater, or visits with friends. jjaba, old timey Westside Bar Mitzvah bukkor | ||
Missnmich Member Username: Missnmich Post Number: 472 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 70.186.39.150 |
Jjaba Is that you on the Dexter bus in the Yahoo/DSR picture? | ||
Correctone Member Username: Correctone Post Number: 23 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 68.42.152.51 |
as a young kid I remember riding on the streetcars, the electric buses and regular buses when all 3 systems were serving Detroit's citizens. now people talk about having a rapid transit system when we already had a great transit system 50 years ago...WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED?....Detroiter's were sold out by greedy city officials who were all white back then....now mostly black but what's the difference? not much right? | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 659 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 66.19.21.41 |
This strange, early electric bus showed up in a shot of Woodward and Jefferson from the 1930s, there's also a double decker in the background, though I'm not sure if it is a DSR bus.  | ||
Gravitymachine Member Username: Gravitymachine Post Number: 726 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 198.208.159.18 |
incidentally, i worked with one of the engineers of the GM "new look" on an internship several summers ago  ...where i learned that the thing with the destination and route over the windshield is called the "snood" | ||
Mikem Member Username: Mikem Post Number: 2240 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.43.15.105 |
I don't think that is an electric bus (bottom right?). The city had several double-deck coaches from different builders, but I don't think any were electric. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 50 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Just what do Detroiters consider electric buses? In my home town (Milwaukee) we had "trackless trolleys" on a few older streetcar lines. These lasted until the mid 1960s or so. I remember being on one the day that JFK was murdered. Those large buses had super acceleration, easily beating most cars from a dead stop. | ||
Mikem Member Username: Mikem Post Number: 2243 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.43.15.105 |
I would say if it has a hydrocarbon-burning engine directly driving the wheels, then it's not an electric bus. If it has electric motors driving the wheels with power from rail or overhead wires, then it's an electric bus, even if it has rubber wheels. If it has a hydrocarbon-burning engine spinning a generator to produce electricity to drive electric motors on the axle (like a diesel locomotive) I might still consider it an electric bus. | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 662 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 66.2.149.84 |
I guess my reading glasses or eyes picked up something on the enlargement that wasn't there, or shows up on higher resolution under different filters. I wonder what that roof bulge is for if not for stowing pick-up poles. Here's two photos of the real DSR trackless trolley from 1925 to atone for my mistake.   Still searching for any later electric buses. | ||
Mikem Member Username: Mikem Post Number: 2249 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.43.15.105 |
Give me a minute. | ||
Mikem Member Username: Mikem Post Number: 2250 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.43.15.105 |
   The last run ever of an electric, November 1962:  You really need to get Schramm's books; you'd love 'em. | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 664 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 66.2.149.84 |
I'm looking for them, that is, if I can afford em. Thanks for scanning them for this thread. (Off to correct other errors I've recently made, bad day for posting pics.) A busy day on the DSR at Woodward and Grand River.  | ||
Psip Member Username: Psip Post Number: 766 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 69.246.13.131 |
^^^^ err, thats Woodward and State. | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 669 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 66.2.149.84 |
Sallan's was at Grand River and Woodward (the place with the SILKS signage), unless the map is wrong. I know I'm having a bad night posting bogus information, but I think I got this one correct.  (Message edited by Hornwrecker on January 05, 2006) | ||
Psip Member Username: Psip Post Number: 767 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 69.246.13.131 |
I think its State, here is a latter photo showing enlarged Hudsons, notice the awning and first 3 stories of windows of the old part. They match the first photo. But I could be wrong.  WSU | ||
Psip Member Username: Psip Post Number: 768 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 69.246.13.131 |
Here is another angle, showing Hudsons (left) and Silks (right).  | ||
Aarne_frobom Member Username: Aarne_frobom Post Number: 5 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 162.108.2.221 |
Actually, it's Woodward and Gratiot. Maps show this steet segment labeled "Gratiot" east of Woodward and "State" west of Woodward. I'm a big fan of the old Hudson's building, and the entrances on that face were labeled "Gratiot" as I recall. I have never seen a picture before of the Gratiot Ave. facades before the enlargement of the Hudson's building, as shown in the fourth picture above. It's interesting to see two bays of the Hudson's building next to the older building with the arched windows, which must have been demolished very shortly after this picture was taken in the mid-1920's. And incidentally, I recall seeing a few trackless trolley hulks in an Allen Park junkyard as late as 1970 or so. I believe the last cities to use these electric buses were Dayton, Ohio and maybe Hamilton, Ontario. I think the cost of maintaining the orphan technology did them in in the 1980's. | ||
Psip Member Username: Psip Post Number: 777 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 69.246.13.131 |
^^ you are absolutely correct, it is Gratiot. I stand corrected. Hornwrecker, somewhere you have a picture of people crossing Woodward while Christmas shopping. I think that photo shows the Silk building end of Hudson's before the expansion. Doesn't Toronto still have trackless trollys? (Message edited by Psip on January 06, 2006) |
