  Ray Member Username: Ray Post Number: 752 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 69.209.128.123 |
I have a theory that accounts for all our troubles. Maybe its wrong, maybe its obvious. You decide. I know I can be a caustic dork, but I really do love Detroit and Michigan and want it to succeed. After 22 years away, I moved here from California 18 months ago, and I have to say, it's been BRUTAL. I'm not talking about the city, which I like, but the suburbs. It's just a very, very difficult place to live. I dream of leaving and mercifully work half time out of state. I meet other people from out of state, and they all like to complain too. Yet, when I talk to the lifers (long term residents) which include my entire family, they love it here. This is consistent with a recent FreePress poll that said something like 85% of the area's residents "love" living here. This culminated today in a discussion with a lifer, who said he was "sick and tired" of people who move in from out of town always saying how much they hate it. A light went off in my head. The "outsiders" are really nothing more than a fair representation of the dominant culture throughout the rest of the country. Why would their perspective be so at odds with the lifers? Obviously, the perceived undesirability of the area (not just from afar but by people who actually move here) is at the core of its economic decline. So what gives? I've concluded (please support or attack) that the Detroit area has a unique and incredibly strong culture and value-system that is different from the culture and value systems of other major cities. It's a self-sustaining cycle becaue the strong culture drives away those who don't like it leaving an ever more concentrated culture that reflects the values and preferences of the residual individuals who choose to stay. And, my view is, those preferences and values get ever farther out of whack with the rest of the world. Anyway, I'm not trying to bitch, I'm trying to diagnose. I think that everything we want to accomplish: the diversified economy, the revitalized city, the end of racism and poverty, mass transit, everything would be TRIVIAL if we could only address this culture issue. And until we address this cultural issue, these things will be nearly IMPOSSIBLE. In a nutshell, the Detroit area is in its current declining, pathological condition because the great bulk of people who live here like it that way, or should I say like and refuse to change the values, conventions and institutions that create and maintain the declining, pathological condition. How do we change culture? I’m starting one person at time by taking ardent Detroit haters on tours of downtown. I really don’t know what else to do, nor do I know how long I can hang on. Here are some specifics: Our unique Detroit culture has many wonderful attributes. People are stoic, neighborly, family-oriented, unpretentious, and many other great things. But there are some destructive features and features which, while value-neutral, just grate on someone coming here from say New York. I acknowledge that some of this stuff seems petty, but that's thing about cultural differences: small points can drive groups apart (or in our case, away). For example: * An extreme anti-urbanism which is profound and almost incomprehensible. I've never seen anything like it. The way people talk about the D or cities generally is almost surrealistically negative. * Lack of aesthetics particularly in regards to architecture and planning. Drive through Troy down 16 mile and 15 mile. Try not to vomit when you realize they call this the Golden Mile or the New Downtown or some such crap. * Culture of driving that precludes a ecologically sustainable and socially just mass transit system. Or frankly, just plain walking. * Profound lack of global-orientation that manifests itself in all kinds of ways that just grates on me, personnally. Few people speak more than English or have traveled extensively, for example. * A tolerance for mediocrity. One petty but annoying manifestation of this is poor restaurant service as almost a universal constant throughout the region. * Lack of creativity and diversity; of risk-taking; of relishing that which is unique and individualistic. And I’m talking about Oakland county, for gosh sake. Fifteen minutes in Warren or Livonia, I'm ready to step in front of the Metro. If we had one. (Message edited by ray on July 26, 2006) | ||
Hamtramck_steve Member Username: Hamtramck_steve Post Number: 3108 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 136.181.195.17 |
I think the top thing on your list is the one about driving. The anti-urbanism and lack of aesthetics are derived from that. I do question your generalization about the globalization, though. The line workers may have a different perspective, but is it really that strange anymore for the white collar people in the car business to have contacts oversees? Too, maybe it's my warped perspective having been raised in a highly ethnic family/neighborhood, but I grew up with more than just English in the home, as did most of my friends in the neighborhood. Polish was the predominant language of gossip, used to pass info up and down from one porch to the next in the summer. And this was in Roseville, too. One of those, yucky, hated, detestable suburbs. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4052 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.185.186.81 |
You're not crazy, I noticed almost all those things on a daily basis, and this is coming from a lifer. I particular agree with you on 1 & 5. I think your fifth point is what grates at me the most as it's the thing that keeps the state and limbo and passing by. Michigan has everything to become a great state, again, because it really was at one point. But, people have either forgotten or find it too hard to use the qualities we had to make us great, again. On your first point, I couldn't agree with you more. Even as a lifer, I've been over a lot of this country, and nowhere and I mean nowhere have I seen cities in a state that talk about themselves and eachother so negatively in such an almost satirical way. Seriously, I expect Ashton Kutcher to pop out from behind a bush with a "You got punkn'd, man!" You're not crazy. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1910 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 69.221.77.129 |
All of your 'for examples' are right on. They tower over political ideas and various spin you could put on issue, because they are facts, and yes, you can notice them on a daily basis. We have such a throwaway, materialistic society, and I feel all of this is heightened and made even worse in this area due to our divisions. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1664 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Honestly, I don't see it so much as a "strong culture" as I do see it that the lifers have rarely lived in other places. As a result, they have little other experiences or examples from which to draw or compare, and see the little of the world they do know as the end-all-be-all. You see a lot of the same in Ohio, too. It reminds me of a time my dad came to visit me in DC and said, "Isn't there anywhere we can get *normal* pizza?". After living their entire lives in one place, some people just can't fathom that things could possibly different anywhere else. | ||
Warriorfan Member Username: Warriorfan Post Number: 472 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 68.43.81.191 |
Ray, everything on your list is subjective and your opinion. Because you do not like the way Troy looks does not mean that there is anything wrong with the city. In fact, your entire post seems to reek of anti-suburb hatred, you seem to blame all the regions problems on the burbs. You do realize that "urban life" is not the end-all be-all of human existence, don't you? I could honestly give two shits about "architecture." Here are the things I care about: 1) Jobs 2) Crime and safety 3) Efficient city services And yet, these are the core issues that people such as yourself seem to gloss over when they go on the attack against the suburbs for being "boring" (I guess nightly gunfire is "exciting" and a selling point for urban living) or for not having historical architecture or for being bland and homogenous and all the other superficial crap that doesn't mean shit compared to 911 service that actually works or quality schools or not having your shit stolen as soon as you turn your head away. Some people would gladly trade the "grit" and "charm" of big city living for crime-free neighborhoods, low taxes, top-notch city services, quality schools, etc. | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 1243 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 136.1.1.33 |
Great post, Ray. I guess my strategy for changing the culture is to live in the city of Detroit, where the cultural attributes you listed either don't apply, or at least seem to be fading. Of course, the city has a different set of problems that need to be dealt with (e.g. the ones Warriorfan lists). But at least there's a more hopeful feeling of "starting from scratch", in a sense. Long term, I see the city as a more viable alternative for people in the region who reject the cultural attributes you listed. | ||
Livedog2 Member Username: Livedog2 Post Number: 751 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 24.223.133.177 |
I think we all see things through our own filters and I think your perceptions, Ray is probably perfect for you. But, I think the problems go way deeper than the things you mentioned. But, I won't go into them because it would just start a harangue from "certain" people. I love the city as much as anyone but I don't think we've "hit bottom", yet. And, we haven't evolved enough as a species to solve the very serious problems we have in the city of Detroit which is just a microcosm of the country. Living in Detroit is like looking into the passenger side view mirror that says “objects appear closer than they are” because they are magnified so much. What is needed is a leader with a vision that can unite ALL of the people. Sadly, that kind of leader does not exist. Maybe that leader does not exist, anywhere. Maybe we’re looking for something that does not exist. Livedog2 | ||
Pmardo Member Username: Pmardo Post Number: 15 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 68.40.90.112 |
I agree very much on your last point, Dougw. Especially with the younger generation which I am a part of, people are moving to Detroit City because they are sick and tired of suburban culture and values and seek a place to unite with other like-minded folks and create a new lifestyle. Detroit is unique in my mind in that there is so muich potential and opportunity for creative endeavors and innovation - i.e. bicycle cooperatives, community gardens, etc. | ||
Livedog2 Member Username: Livedog2 Post Number: 753 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 24.223.133.177 |
Right! That'll build institutions that will last for 50 years for people to be able to talk about on DetroitYES in 2056!! livedog2 | ||
Pam Member Username: Pam Post Number: 314 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 4.229.72.131 |
I don't think the attitudes you describe are unique to this area. I was just in the Portland area a week ago to visit family and they have many of the attitudes you describe. Portland is supposed to be a happening, liveable city but they prefer to spend most of their time in the suburbs. They also drive everywhere and don't use the transit system. I was also in Milwaukee recently and they have ongoing suburban sprawl despite a revitalized inner city. Some people just like the suburbs. | ||
Ordinary Member Username: Ordinary Post Number: 18 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 68.251.227.157 |
Ray, you started a great thread. I have three brothers and a sister who have all moved out of the area. One is in Portland, OR. One in Chicago and two in the Grand Rapids/Muskegon area. I get so sick and tired of hearing what a dumbass I am for living in the metro area. I am an 'inner-ring' suburbanite. Sure it's boring in the burbs but where I live now reminds me of the neighborhood in Detroit where I grew up. The administative system works better in the burbs. As an example: My mom lives in Detroit and when my dad was still alive they had a problem with their water bill. The city just wouldn't believe that they had paid the bill. My parents had to go down there about 5 times to get it straightened out. My mother still sends the check down there certified mail so she can prove that they got it. What kind of bullshit is that? Detroit is a mess in a lot of respects but I still don't understand the hatred either. I go up north a lot for work and again I have to hear about what a dummy I am for living in the area. Detroit is a dynamic place but it's going to take a long time for it to get on the upswing. Detroit works when Detroit works. Detroit needs more jobs. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 148 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 64.131.176.232 |
It will take something drastic, but it won't take a lot of time to bring Detroit back. If the right things were accomplished today, Detroit could be in a serious boom a year from now. I'm not talking about fix the schools either. I'd love to see better inner-city schools, but thriving cities do exist mutually exclusive of good school systems. I live in Manhattan (New York County) which is the richest county in the nation. It's richer than Oakland... yet, I live directly across the street from a school that wouldn't even hold up against Detroit proper school standards. It's sad, but it says more about society than the state of this particular city, which we all know is doing just fine. I don't see those things happening right now or anytime soon that are moving Detroit towards that boom. Sadly, I'm glad I left because of that. Let's face it, that city needs a boom. It needs to get the country's attention and it needs to do it fast. I'll be back sooner or later, but that entire region needs to realize it's either swim together or sink. A lot of people are beginning to realize it, but the string pullers are resisting it way too hard right now. | ||
Zug Member Username: Zug Post Number: 125 Registered: 01-2004 Posted From: 207.74.176.238 |
I think this is a multifaceted problem. So it should be a given that my comments are by no means implying that everyone looks at things in this perspective. First off, related to the "lifer" perspective. Many people are unable to move, or would find it difficult to move from the area (i.e. they don't want to leave a good job, family, etc.). Most will go along with discussing problems if they can be solved. But I think most people try to make the best of their situation when it seems almost impossible to overcome some of the region's problems. Why trash your own neighborhood when you don't think you're going to be leaving it? It may not be helpful, but it does allow you to live without being eternally depressed. As a result, Detroiters staunchly defend its city and give all of the benefits to living in the city. Suburbanites do the same. We tend to trivialize or gloss over some of our major problems, because it feels impossible to change. (How many times have I heard, "I'll beleive it when I see it" on this forum alone?). Where trouble comes in many instances is when there are unavoidable negative aspects of metro Detroit that come to the forefront. Detroiters will blame suburbanites (i.e. lack of investment in the city, Detroit as a "vice city" to suburbanites [it's amazing how all of the trash in the city was dumped by residents of Sterling Heights, or how I have to hear things like "the only people who buy drugs come from the suburbs"]) And suburbanites blame Detroiters (i.e. crime, taxes [isn't it cute how so many former-Detroiters have a little anecdote as to why they ultimately "had" to move out of Detroit..."after the city raised my property taxes by 0.1% and my dog was stabbed to death, I just had to move to Melvindale"]). Granted, this isn't always the case. Some people really do love metro Detroit for what it is, despite the sometimes overbearing economic problems, classism, racism, or just plain dumb things with which we have to deal. Now, there are many people who really want to leave the area. I have been able to travel, and I see the many positive aspects of different areas. Some areas really are nice, and I could even fantasize about living somehwere different. But, at least with many of the people I know, we agree that Detroit really isn't that different than other American metro areas. Is that just me making myself feel better? Some of you might say yes. But I personally feel that Detroit isn't that unique. If you don't think New York, Chicago, Houston, or Los Angeles has to deal with city-suburb issues, classism, racism, bad economic situations (at least in certain sectors), then that seems misguided. Go to any big city in America, watch the 5:00 news, then tell me it's perfect (or that it has a perfect collective self-image). Is an Eastside Detroiter really better off living in the Bronx, Southside Chicago, 5th Ward Houston, or Watts? Maybe in some ways, but it probably would not be miles beyond Detroit in terms of quality of life. Is living in the Bronx better than living in Livonia? Maybe to some, but I'm sure many Americans would choose Livonia in a heartbeat. On Manhattan, how many of the good jobs belong to people living in New Jersey, suburban Long Island, and even Connecticut? Why is LA so sprawling? Why is Houston air like sucking on a smokestack? Why were the Black areas of Washington DC the last areas to be connected to their subway system? Why did so many companies abandon New York City after September 11, and never want to come back? Why is Philadelphia and Baltimore losing population at such a rapid rate, leading to nearly abandoned neighborhoods within the city? Why is suburban Cincinnati spilling over into rural areas, making miles of cookie-cutter subdivisions and shopping centers? Why are all the new housing developments in downtown Chicago beyond what low income Chicago residents can pay? All of these are very similar to Detroit issues that have been brought up on this forum over the years. Bottom line, Detroit is not perfect...but many Americans share the same problems. Virtually every city that had growth during the last census period experienced growth in immigrant communities. People are still leaving cities for suburbs all around the country. Most new jobs in the country are service/retail jobs...not high paying white collar jobs. But, in Ray's words, I'm a "lifer". I'm doing exactly what I said many of us do...defend our city. But, I'm not ignoring our problems, I just think these issues are bigger than just Detroit. Ours may be more stark, but its not unique. [Sorry for ranting...and I'll probably get my Rhetorical Question License suspended.] | ||
Ray Member Username: Ray Post Number: 753 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 68.42.133.85 |
Thanks for the thoughtful responses to my posts. It's a tough nut to crack. Roadwarrior, you raise many insightful points; I didn't mean to blame anyone just to observe. I work in suburan San Jose, which is as suburban as suburbs go. And yet, I an walk out of my office to dozens of restaurants within 6 blocks, many cafes and bistro type places with outdoor dining, which for some reason makes me damn happy. There's great sushi for $1.25 a piece. There are people from all over the world of every creed and color. There are trains every 20 minutes and busses everywhere. There is massive well planned open space minutes away. And there's this remarkable Borders bookstore with this amazing Spainish medaterranian courtyard with a fountain where you can sit at a wrought iron tables and read for hours in the bright California sunshine. Then, I blink and I'm back in Troy deciding which strip shopping center to eat lunch at, and counting the days until I can sit in that courtyard and hear the gurgle of the fountain. Hey, golly, I found a picture of that courtyard. Doesn't that look sweet! Wouldn't you like to spend your lunch hour there with a great book and an esspresso (from the place across the street were the guys behind the counter are real Italians!)  We can have every last amenity I just described here in Detroit, city or suburbs, if people ONLY wanted it. I guess that's what breaks my heart. I long for the wonderful quality of life in (don't choke) suburban San Jose and mourn for the fact that my compatroits in suburban Detroit either don't know or don't care enough to recreate it or smoething like it. | ||
Metrodetguy Member Username: Metrodetguy Post Number: 2753 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 70.228.3.80 |
Ray, the anti-urbanism goes both ways. Just because one lives in Detroit doesn't mean that he/she favors a true (textbook) urban lifestyle. I've known/encountered many Detroiters that don't really want: 1. To follow driving (speeding, insurance, red light running, excessive noise, etc.) laws. They've said that they "like that in Detroit you can drive anyway you want". 2. Don't like walking and prefer to drive everywhere. 3. Only shop at chains. 4. Don't want non-Blacks, the wealthy, and the educated here. 5. Don't care about architecture, cultural attractions, urban planning, mass transit, etc. 6. See corporations and their jobs, stadia and its sports/entertainment, new housing developments (lofts, riverfront, high rise condos) as something for White people. 7. Many other examples, but you get the idea. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1227 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 69.130.18.100 |
Why would my suburban friends crave such a courtyard for their lunch hour when they've built similar in their own back yards? "Which is why we decided against a loft/condo/apartment. We're also planning a water garden." | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 1738 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 69.209.152.173 |
Ray, culture is the sharing of similar beliefs and customs. The culture here is the same as it is all over the country. We practice the same kind of government(democracy), speak the same language(English), wear the same clothes(jeans, T-shirts, and gym shoes), participate in the same recreational activities(play and watch sports, go to movies, and read books, magazines, and newspapers), eat the same foods(hamburgers, hot dogs, and pizza), and express our spirituality by attending service at a church, synagogue, or mosque). The big difference between Detroit and other cities in other parts of the country is that we still have not come to grips with racial issues. The history of Detroit from the 1940s until today has been about racial issues. Political, social, and economic decisions of the past have shaped this region into what it is today, and many of those decisions were based on race. Many of the decisions made today are still based on race. In my opinion, if whites controlled Detroit city government and the majority of residents in Detroit were white, we wouldn't be having many of the debates that we have about the decisions being made in Detroit by city officials. Let's be honest, how many top 20 cities in population in this country with a white mayor and a majority white population are considered to be in as bad of shape as Detroit? When the political power is in different hands, people of all races in the region see things differently. Think about it: is the issue about participation by metro communities in the SMART bus system only about how to fund it? I'm not sure. I am currently reading an extremely eye-opening book about racial issues in Detroit. It's called "The Origins of the Urban Crisis: Race and Inequality in Post War Detroit." The book is written by Thomas Sugrue. Many forumers here have suggested reading this book to get a better understanding of how race relations and economic conditions in Detroit have come about. I suggest that everyone who cares about this region read this book. Ray, inevitably race will come up when you are talking about solving many of Detroit's problems. As an African American I an open to living in a diverse Detroit and working with all people, regardless of race. However, in solving Detroit's problems, people of different races must understand the history and experiences of those that are of a different race than theirs. Without that knowledge, we will continue to run from our problems instead of facing them head-on. This forum can be an excellent vehicle for intelligent discourse when we can freely, and without prejudice, share our ideas and experiences and learn from them. The solving of Detroit's problems have already begun here at DetroitYes!. | ||
Livedog2 Member Username: Livedog2 Post Number: 762 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 24.223.133.177 |
You can't force people to do what they evidently don't want to do! Why do I say that? It's based on results -- plain and simple. Have you seen the "Hate" thread? Saying everything is wonderful like the Pollyanna's are always harping doesn't get anything done and saying everything is terrible like the naysayers are always saying doesn't get anything done, either. Power comes out of the wallet and the wallet is not opening for the current structure. Like it or not money makes the world go round and in the good old U. S. of A. money makes it go round in spades. Personally, I don't see a solution to the short or long term problems that face Detroit. Oh, that doesn't mean that there aren't solutions but they're not going to happen here within any of our lifetimes of the current Forumers because the problems are too deep seated and entrenched. People in Detroit and people in the suburbs would just as soon see the city sink farther and farther into the abyss than work with each other. Livedog2 | ||
Michikraut Member Username: Michikraut Post Number: 168 Registered: 05-2004 Posted From: 217.232.89.3 |
Ok- I am an architect(get it out in the open) and I take umbrage at "Warriorfan" for his "1) Jobs 2) Crime and safety 3) Efficient city services " As these elements are influenced and can be encouraged by Architecture. I´m not just talking about one buildings appearance but more like the street scape, the relation of buildings to roads and each other. With a planned and maintained street, where the houses and building have entrances and windows to the sidewalks, there is less crime and more safety as the population interacts with one another (perhaps lessoning mistrust and fostering neighborliness) With a dense Urban fabric there is effeciency in city services, possibilities for mass-transit, and even more security, which then increase the appeal for the neighborhood and with the increased interest comes more involvment in the community (more support for schools, churches, and local clubs= better products and events = enriched cultural life). That is what "archtitecture" should be about- not just how old a building is and in what style it is emulating. Something many schools got away from but are slowly returning to. This has so far been a pretty intelligent thread- and quite fair. As "Zug" said- I think every Urban Area has many of the same problems and we just don´t hear about them as much as we concentrate on our own beloved Detroit. | ||
Arc312 Member Username: Arc312 Post Number: 32 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 85.48.96.23 |
So I've been interning at an architecture firm in Madrid, Spain, and tomorrow is my last day. I've been telling them about my home (I do live in the suburbs) and what i do and where I go to work and play. They are so amazed by what I would consider a normal drive to well...anywhere that I would go. When I told them that my mother drive 2 miles to work, they asked why she doesn't take the bus. They were truly suprised when i told them that it would take 10 times as much time to get there if she did that. However, when you ask them why they wouldnt chosse to live in "las afueras" they cite the lack services and jobs, the price of gas, and well feeling alone if they were to live in the suburbs. While I know that I'm not uncovering anything new, It's is so foreign (literally) to talk to a group of people who think its morally wrong to live in a wasteful setting like an american styled suburb. However, if you go to the new developments on the outskirts of Madrid, most are apartments blocks that resemble the size of modern suburban office park buildings, close to the streets and with underground parking, which is something that americans have truly yet to embrace. single residential housing is something that is left to at the least the upper-middle class. shopping complexes in the suburbs of madrid resemble what you could find in the US, and it was almost a treatment for my homesickness when i saw it lit up at night, very wierd. However, all spanish commericals resemble settings of an american-style suburb, which i dont get becasue NO ONE lives like it. our american suburban culture permeates commerical culture even in europe. However, there are times i miss my backyard, or the quietness of my suburban home; but thats simply becasue thats what i grew up with, and i feel at ease with it, but that doesnt make it better. However, the US is not Europe, and any successiful new urbanism is going to resemble suburbia, so we must not forget that fact. the american suburban dream will reign, which sometime makes me comfortable, and yet i feel guily for liking it at times. please dicect waht i am saying, and ask questions. I want ot be able to talk about my urban experiences here. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1912 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 68.248.13.92 |
Warriorfan's post is useful because it typifies the typical viewpoint you find around metro Detroit outside of this forum. He/she is someone who could care less about what we do to our earth and what our built environment looks like, as long as he/she can make some coin and live in safety and comfort. It's self-centered and oh-so-American. The more I live in this area, the more critical I seem to become of the direction of this entire world. I went from an idealist conservative-type to a sardonic, critical person of mixed political view. I'm conservative, but most conservatives aren't talking about the things that I'm worried about (mentioned in my first paragraph). And this highlights a big problem we can add to Ray's list--the black and white, 2-valued way of thinking in America. There is so little room for debate. We love to categorize people. Things like intellectualism and concern for aesthetics are clearly elitist. Our minds are pretty much closed, and it is so much worse around here. As our newspaper headlines indicate, we are more worried about sports teams (which are fun and all) than world issues, and the huge issues of this very city/metro area. Warriorfan's final paragraph fails to consider the notion of critical mass. According to the post, an old-fashioned big city enviroment cannot coexist with safety/good schools/etc. Well, in most cities, it does. We don't want to believe it can in Detroit. Until we make it happen, with more people TRYING NEW WAYS and MOVING BACK to Detroit, so that a critical mass can be reached in terms of tax revenue and caring residents within the city, things will remain as they presently are. Most people know this--they go to Chicago and other great cities on their vacation--they just don't want to take on the challenges of this area, for fear of short-term loss of "safety, money, peace of mind" and all that bullshit. And oh by the way, I love how the ills of a city now require millions of people with Warriorfan's way of thinking to move to Troy--or White Lake--or Brighton. It's not enough to move out of the "dysfuntional" city to perhaps Dearborn or Grosse Pointe or Royal Oak, we need to create inefficient living patterns and carve up farmlands and forests to make ourselves happy. Since 1950 we have shown regard for two things in our low-density, single-use living patterns: ourselves and our cars. It really is a sad state of affairs. | ||
Planner_727 Member Username: Planner_727 Post Number: 20 Registered: 07-2006 Posted From: 69.87.150.106 |
To echo the thoughts of Michikraut, Urban Planning also has many parallel benefits that impact the "1) Jobs 2) Crime and safety 3) Efficient city services ". Form-based code, a alternate to traditional, Euclidian zoning, tries to accomplish many of the things that Michikraut's architecture does: focusing on the relation of the form of the buildings to the adjacent street instead of on a separation of land uses and regulations. Furthermore, planning for connected road networks instead of infinitely twisting cul-de-sac streets not only improves 911 response times, but also promotes sense of community and neighborhood pride instead of segregating individual subdivisions. In addition to the connectivity of roads, the design of roadways also contributes significantly to safety. Narrower streets with high-visibility pedestrian crossings means slower speeds and safer pedestrians. And finally, creating communities and corridors that are well-planned and include some 'additional' amenities such as high-quality architecture, street-oriented layout, a mixture of uses, and compact pleasing design can increase property values, retain and generate new jobs, and create an environment to attract additional residents to the region. Overall, I think Ray's best point is not that the suburbs should aspire to be more like Detroit or other big cities, but rather that it's what our region percieves as the 'extras' (high-quality architecture, planning, transit, regional cooperation) that should be the NORM. | ||
Cinderpath Member Username: Cinderpath Post Number: 5 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 75.14.230.174 |
Great Conversation- Here are some of my thoughts from the original post. For example: * An extreme anti-urbanism which is profound and almost incomprehensible. I've never seen anything like it. The way people talk about the D or cities generally is almost surrealistically negative. After awhile (Decades) of corrupt city politicians, you just throw your hands up, because you know as long as the current crop of crooked clowns and their cronies and family are running the show, nothing is really going to get better the way it should like say in Chicago. As much as I hate to admit it- Detroit needs a Gulianni to clean the place up. The tolerance for poor city government services is simply amazing. Detroit: Potential- Vast, likelihood, Dim. I laughed like hell when I just moved here and was in Troy Beaumont hospital, I mentioned that we were new to the Detroit area, and I was corrected by the staff, that "This is not Detroit, it is Troy". Sorry, but to anyone else on the planet except from the area- You live in Detroit, When you say Michigan, people know Detroit; Not its boring suburbs, and could care less about the minor distinctions. * Lack of aesthetics particularly in regards to architecture and planning. Drive through Troy down 16 mile and 15 mile. Try not to vomit when you realize they call this the Golden Mile or the New Downtown or some such crap. I have to agree here; i've seen enough cinder block "Liquor and Lotto" stores to last me a lifetime. I laugh when people always talk about how beautiful and nice Troy an Birmingham are- Do these people not get out?While Birmingham is nice, I certainly don't think it is by any means world class. * Culture of driving that precludes a ecologically sustainable and socially just mass transit system. Or frankly, just plain walking. It is very sad that the few walkable communities around here are also the ones that cost a lot to live in, like Birmingham, but the popularity and the desire for urban type community is strong. Just look at Royal Oak. In an area where real estate sales are tanking, lofts are booming. People want it, but the farmland north of here just keeps getting devoured with cookie-cutter beige McMansions. (Yawn). * Profound lack of global-orientation that manifests itself in all kinds of ways that just grates on me, personally. Few people speak more than English or have traveled extensively, for example. I have absolutely found this not to be the case, and I would chalk it up to the circles you run in. Have you been to Ann Arbor? Most of the people I come across are well traveled, and speak more than one language . The amount of foreigners here, mostly from the auto industry (Engineers, etc) is staggering. I deal with them on an almost daily basis. I would even say that there are few areas in the US that have as much diversity as the Detroit area, especially in the Midwest with the major exception being Chicago. (Greeks, Middle-East, Eastern Europeans, latin and S. Americans, Indian, Italian, German, Chinese, Japanese,come quickly to mind). Sure there is diversity and global thinking in NY and in California, but in between, there is very little. Go to Texas or to Arkansas some time, then lets talk about diversity. It would be very difficult to come to that conclusion on a Saturday at Eastern Market, or in Hamtramck, but yes parts of the 'burbs can be as white-bread as it gets. Let's call a spade a spade though- is this really any different than Orange county? From my experience, not really. * A tolerance for mediocrity. One petty but annoying manifestation of this is poor restaurant service as almost a universal constant throughout the region. Again I have to disagree with you, I have lived in Europe for 5 years, traveled in Asia, and worked on both coast, and I have to say there are some true culinary gems here; you just need to know where to look. My conclusion is that you will find the best and worst here. I've had some the best Italian food to be found anywhere here- and I have been to Italy over 200 times. If your looking for it on fast-food row or at Applebees, your not going to find it. * Lack of creativity and diversity; of risk-taking; of relishing that which is unique and individualistic. Again- and I live in Ferndale, and this just is not the case from what I am finding. I deal with a lot young entrepreneur types, writers, artist, etc, also people who are well traveled and have been around. Again though, this depends on where you are, in Waterford, it might be harder to find. And I’m talking about Oakland county, for gosh sake. Fifteen minutes in Warren or Livonia, I'm ready to step in front of the Metro. If we had one. You think this is bad- go to Indiana or Ohio, we are living in the "Big City" my friend. I've had a love-hate relationship with this area for awhile, but am slowly coming to peace with it. I focus on the good, and there is a lot of it here: the people are simply great. I've had enough of high-strung neurotic East Coasters, and phony Californians whose only motivation is finding out "who you know" then assessing your value as a person based on this. As I mentioned before, the food varieties are amazing, you just have to know where to look. The music scene is awesome, I could go on and on. I've made wonderful friends here too. The other thing- Detroit is affordable. I could not afford the house I have here in NY or California. A 3K a month payment for a shoe-box? No-thanks. The negatives: The geography sucks here, it is flat, I miss the hills. I miss being close to nature. For that in the Detroit area you have to drive a long ways. It is a "Car culture" and definitely lacks an urban style that you mention. Lets be real though, most of LA is no different. It is just Detroit with more traffic and strip malls, but at least has palm trees, mountains and an ocean;-) And a high-price for it all. No doubt about it, there are times when I am in the city and I think this is a wacky, fucked-up place, where rather than get mad, you just have to love it. When I lived in Vienna (arguably one of the nicest cities on the plant) I had an Austrian friend there, and he told me how much he missed Detroit and wanted to move back. "It and the people are REAL", he always said. At the time I though he was crazy, begrudgingly now I understand where he comes from. Yep- it is not always squeaky clean, and is rough around the edges. If I were away though, I now am in the predicament that I would actually miss this place. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1672 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.123.146 |
Nice post Cinderpath.Frankly I found Ray's post condescending and patronizing.But then I could be accused of that from time to time as well. It is also amusing that Ray would cite lack of creativity on a forum and website that has won awards and been acclaimed internationally for it's creativity.............and I disagree with Lowell alot and some of what he lets go on here. To those of you that continue to downplay crime you just don't get it.Until Detroit significantly reduces crime nothing much will change.People will continue to leave, the population will diminish, schools will close, businesses will too......one need not live in Detroit or any city to make that observation. My solution Ray honestly for you is this......MOVE......if it is really that distasteful to you.Because there are people here single, gay, families, children living in the burbs, the city, and in outer area's and here in Ann Arbor that are very content and live prettty damn good lives.They really don't need you to tell them what is good for them | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1228 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 69.129.146.186 |
No we don't have huge hills in the Metro area, but we do have woods, fields, lakes, and streams (why? - because Metro Detroit was part of the glacial outwash plain). Some of the parkland in Ann Arbor and the Irish Hills southwest of there are actually a glacial moraine. There's nature here just not the kind you're used to. | ||
Pam Member Username: Pam Post Number: 317 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 67.107.47.65 |
I agree. I've never found it hard to get back to nature around here. http://www.metroparks.com/inde x.php http://www.michigandnr.com/par ksandtrails/ | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1915 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 68.248.13.92 |
Plus there is the waterway. Detroit River, Lake St. Claire--very beautiful. If you drive 3-4 hours north or west, you'll get your fair share of woods and hills, and if you go to the Upper Peninsula, you'll get wilderness on par with the mountain west. Citylover, I usually leave Ann Arbor out of my characterizations of metro Detroit. I don't want to side-track our discussion with this topic, but I'll just say that A2 (inside of the greenbelt--not talking Huron Pkwy. or Dexter here) is a big bright spot, and IS creative, diverse, and a successful urban area which dispells Ray's points. HOWEVER, Ray was speaking of Detroit and the surrounding communities which grew out of Detroit. What I'm wondering is--does Ray live in Detroit? If not, there are some neighborhoods in Detroit and even the inner ring which might help him come to terms. | ||
Jerome81 Member Username: Jerome81 Post Number: 1052 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 64.142.86.133 |
Ray, Borders on University is nice. I enjoy a dinner every now and then at Plutos. Decent food for a good price. What more can you ask for? It's only 5 minutes from home!  I tend to see things similarly to you. I miss Michigan (I was born in Holland on the west side), but even miss Detroit and SE Michigan in general. But when I think of maybe moving back, I wonder if I REALLY want to. It is great here, for the most part. Is it something I really miss, or just the change from here to there that I'm smitten by but will eventually grow tired of? I've had this conversation with my GF. We have been together 3 years and spent the last 1 year while I took a job in CA. We're both scared to ask the other to move to MI or CA. She was born in Detroit, spent her entire life in Grosse Pointe Park, in the same house, where her parents still live, 4 kids, went to UofM and grad school at Oakland. She hasn't ever been more than 60 miles outside of Detroit for all 25 years of her life. When I suggest maybe coming here, or meeting somewhere we both like, such as Chicago, she gets very skittish about leaving the family behind. "They're my best friends". She says "I really like it here, I don't think I want to go somewhere else". When we talk about our future, she doesn't like that I'm not a big church goer. She goes when in GPP but wants to make it normal later in life. So if we end up together, she wants me to go to her church, where she has gone her whole life, filled with all the family friends that hold different views on items than I do (Christian Reformed...I'm dutch too, I should love that stuff! ). I feel frustrated, because I am 100% sure she is the "LOVE IT HERE", and I'm also very sure it is also because she has NEVER been elsewhere, like most people in Michigan, I suspect. I'm not trying to come across as holier than thau, just that I'm saying I agree with most of your points, both through my observations and my experiences with family and GF. I've often wondered if Michiganders, particularly SE Michiganders, would be able to see what it is like elsewhere, that maybe we could make a lot more progress. I get the feeling people are too happy with the status quo, cause they don't know how good they could have it. And it is certainly a Michigan thing. It seems so many I meet here in CA are not from around here. I'm from Idaho. Others from Turkey, India, China, St. Louis, Detroit, DC, Seattle. When I meet folks in Michigan, nearly all of them have lived there their entire lives. Same house for 30 years. Same friends. Its actually a little odd. On the other hand, maybe Michigan has something we don't. People here seem to constantly be shifting and moving and coming and going. Maybe there is something to be admired that so many people have found inner-happiness in Michigan, that they don't feel the need to go anywhere else. That is something I think we can all admire. | ||
Ray Member Username: Ray Post Number: 754 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 68.42.133.85 |
Wow, these are great post and very good points. Lilup, in regard to people building courtyards in their backyard, that goes to the essence of the cultural difference: a discounting of the public and the commons in favor of the private. The country club over the cafe. The backyard pool over the playground. It's the inward turning, home is my castle mentality that characterizes suburbia and I think is at the core of its isolatian. Royce, your points are valid. I think a lot of the city. My critique is really aimed at the suburbss. Macinaw, I live in one of the inner ring suburbs you cite, with a nice downtown. We paid through the teeth to live here, but I refused to live more than 2 miles from work or more than walking distance from town. If the town I live in were not an option, I don't think I could have moved here. Citylover, your perspective is valid and is a good statement of what I call the lifer view. If the region were thriving, you could discount my perspective. But we are in a 40 year power dive and I believe that I speak with the voice of the millions of people who would find this a very difficult place to live. Lot's of people may love living in the Detroit region, but they've created a culture and environment that is increasingly less appealing to so many of the people we need to live here or want to stay. It is nearly impossible for us to recruit top talent to our business, while Chicago is awash in the talent we need. There is a mass exodus of young, highly educated people and unfortunatly I think to one degree or another most of them would share my perspective. I agree there are many talented and creative people here and centers of excellence like Ann Arbor, Ferndale/Royal Oak and Downtown Detroit. But the contentment -- I would call it complacency -- that you cite is, I argue, the root of the inertia that retard change and reform. | ||
Ray Member Username: Ray Post Number: 755 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 68.42.133.85 |
Jerome81, I always love your posts. Pick the night and I'll buy you a beer at Rose & Crown. If you love your girlfriend, living in Detroit is a sacrifice worth making. I'm here for my wife. Exact same deal. I have to say, I do LOVE Palo Alto. You're making me homesick. There are so many great places to eat: Pasta or Oseteria or that funny mediterranian place with the Belli Dancers. How about the sushi place Miake where the waiters let you stand on the chairs and chant those strange Japanese cheers. Or how about the trivia night at the Rose & Crown with these impossible questions about history and sicence and a bar full of drunk geniuses who know the answers. I think the fairest comparison here with Palo Alto is Ann Arbor. But Palo Alto is a more conservative, older and business-oriented city. I feel like AA is college kids town. My wife and I looked at a lot of houses in AA, but within a one mile radius of say State and Liberty it's almost all student housing. I think the poplulation of students in AA is like 35% of the the total, and I think in fact very few Stanford studenst live in the city of Palo Alto. I'm guessing they're maybe 5% of the population. It seems like the vast majority of PA housing stock, especially in and around downtown, is not given over to students, who are hard pressed to afford it. Maybe if google moves to downtown AA, it will change the complextion of AA. | ||
Sticks Member Username: Sticks Post Number: 92 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 69.136.140.132 |
Slight digression for a paragraph: A2, while having some sort of a liberal feel to it, is not as progressive as it seems. Sure, they have an awesome bus system and there isn't a single place in that city that I would even feel remotely threatened in, but when you have the fringe-downtowners stating that they don't wany any buildings above four stories in downtown, or that there shouldn't any more affordable housing built near campus, it looks different. First off, related to the "lifer" perspective. Many people are unable to move, or would find it difficult to move from the area (i.e. they don't want to leave a good job, family, etc.). There's good jobs in this area? I'm sure there's some but not many that would keep me here for a lifetime. A gentleman walked into my former place of employment (office supplies) for a job interview at the copy center. Thing is, he was in his early 40s and had been an engineer for one of the auto companies but was recently laid off. Why wouldn't he and his family move from this region? Going from making $100k to $20k a year is enough to make me say, "Screw this region, I'm living in a place where I can find a job that fits me and my skills." And I'm surprised no one's actually brought up the overall disposition of the people. Look at the burbs and the cities. This is a conservative region. If you want to take it as a political thing, go ahead. If you want to view is as a lifestyle thing, that works too. Examples: Lack of aesthetics particularly in regards to architecture and planning. Drive through Troy down 16 mile and 15 mile. Try not to vomit when you realize they call this the Golden Mile or the New Downtown or some such crap. Conservative architecture. While this probably isn't the goal for most (I'll leave it to the actual civil engineers on this board to tell me what is), it can be viewed as such compared to the more ornate structures in the older parts of the region. Interesting point, were these older buildings viewed as being "conservative" in nature when they were built? Culture of driving that precludes a ecologically sustainable and socially just mass transit system. Or frankly, just plain walking. If all your parents have ever done is drive, then why shouldn't you be any different? The system works, as long as you have your car and gas money, right? Lack of creativity and diversity; of risk-taking; of relishing that which is unique and individualistic. If that isn't being conservative in nature, I don't know what is. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1928 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 70.141.78.183 |
Sticks, you're first paragraph is important. The day that A2 starts to truly build UP will be a good one. Google, which Ray mentioned at the end of his post, will likely move to a sprawl setting at the NE or S end of A2 (I'll be pleasantly suprised if they don't), and so don't expect this to force any upbuilding of A2. I will say, though, that A2 does have a pretty diverse range of affordable housing. It has to, because not all students come from wealthy backgrounds. Even the historic Old 4th Ward/North State neighborhood, certainly a more liberal neighborhood and also where I am renting this year, has plenty of affordable apartments inside of those old houses which are otherwise quite expensive when they aren't split up as rentals. The rest of A2 has a lot of the 3-6 story apartment building/townhouse type buildings. The other neighborhoods are a mix of old houses mix and small and piece-of-crap 1960s 4-unit townhomes thrown in. South Forest and the neighborhoods just east of Washtenaw/South. Univ. are great examples. There is a brand new and decent looking brick apartment structure on State at Washington, but I don't know how affordable it is. Regarding jobs in this region, there are tons of "good" ones. You don't just go and have a 4-5 million person metro area without attractive jobs. Its just that, over the last few years, we haven't been adding any new good jobs. The future of this economy is in the high-tech, service, and professional sectors. Michigan has got to get on this, an quick. If we integrate this sort of growth into a mindset that puts central cities and efficient living patterns--and mass transit--at the center, then the future will be much brighter and a lot of Ray's concerns may be assuaged. Thanks, Ray, for sort of clarifying where you lived. Didn't mean to put you on the spot. I, too, can only survive happily in a few places happily in SE Michigan--Detroit, my own neighborhood (thank goodness for my parents' foresight a couple decades ago), and Ann Arbor. | ||
Pam Member Username: Pam Post Number: 321 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 67.107.47.65 |
I guess having roots means more to some people than work and money. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 410 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 209.220.229.254 |
What good are roots when you can't feed your family? Sometimes you need to pull up your roots and move to more fertile soil. | ||
Pam Member Username: Pam Post Number: 322 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 67.107.47.65 |
How do you know he can't feed his family? We don't know anything about the guy. Maybe his wife still has a good job and they figure they can get by with less or he is taking a lower paying job just temporarily. I was just throwing out a reason why some people want to stay in a certain place. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 411 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 209.220.229.254 |
I know just as little as you do, I was only speaking to the hypothetical situation, just as you were. I would venture to say when your average family loses $80k in household income, it's a pretty big shock, and not something that could be solved by a few "lifestyle changes." | ||
Themax Member Username: Themax Post Number: 161 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 69.246.123.118 |
I came from the East to attend MSU a long time ago. I have lived most of my life in Michigan, first in Jackson Co., then Lansing, then the northern lower part and now the metro area. I have watched Detroit decay from federal neglect, city government incompetence and/or corruption for the last 25 years. Like others on this thread, I don't understand why Detroiters don't expect more from their government. Someone mentioned "The Origins of the Urban Crisis: Race and Inequality in Post War Detroit." I wish someone would list some of the points in this book that they thought were especially eye-opening. Will knowing them help to solve Detroit's problem today? How much of Detroit proper's problems stem from a blue-collar perspective? Even in the suburbs, people don't seem to know much about the rest of the nation except for Chicago and Disney World. My daughter went to a private high school, and she said none of her friends traveled out of state. "The Origins of the Urban Crisis: Race and Inequality in Post War Detroit." | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1673 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.132.164 |
I wonder why there is no Ann Arbor superthread on the forum........... So as for AA buiding up being a good thing I would debate that.Being a lifer here I have that perspective.I am not absolutely for or against it.But building up to satisfy some people's idea of what Ann Arbor should be like is dangerous.Especially since AA has managed to stay viable for a very long time. At's it's core Ann Arbor is a town.It is a medium sized midwestern town.It has some notoriety and has had a bit of fame but for the most part it is just a medium sized midwestern town.So the idea of buidling up and creating this grand downtown with many new tall bldgs imo betrays what Ann Arbor fundamentally is. Ann Arbor is a town of neighborhoods.It is vitually all neighborhooods even to the north and the east sides of town it is neighborhoods.This grand plan to build up the downtown sort of casts that fact aside. AA is like Detorit in this sense; no diversity in city government.There are no republicans on council and the Mayor has now changed and decided to run again.............I am against term limits but I expect people to term limit themselves........new people , ne idea's. Ray here is something I have linked many times on the forum.I have debated, argued, called names been called names, left the forum, come back to the forum and most of it was based obn this: crime reduction. It aint glitzy and glamorous and it iaint the end all and be all but it is absolutely needed if this area i.e. Detroit is ever to be the way you think it might be http://www.racematters.org/rev ivalinharlemsheart.htm | ||
Ordinary Member Username: Ordinary Post Number: 20 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 69.218.153.30 |
Citylover you hit the nail on the head about the crime situation. It's the number one problem that plagues Detroit. Anybody who denies it is delusional. But I don't understand why you told Ray to just get up and leave. Ray, as to your saying that you "refused to live more than two miles from work, or more than walking distance to town". Barf, puke, vomit. Isn't is wonderful that you have that choice? I drive 20 miles one way from the east side burbs to the downriver area and it sucks big time. Some of us just don't have a choice. I've been employed at the place for 16 years and have lots of vacation and make good coin. My daughter is still in high school. Am I supposed to try and find another job in this messed up economy? Or move? I don't think so. I often fantasize about riding my bike to work but it's just not an option. You are fortunate to have such choices. | ||
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 2815 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.167.211.167 |
Wow, what a great thread – already destined for the forum hall of fame. Thank you Ray for starting this provocative and thoughtful thread and thanks all who have contributed so wonderfully to this topic. When I started the forum years ago this was the ideal I hoped would emerge and, overtime, many quality threads like this have come along. While rare, they quickly rise above the cacophony that the democracy of ideas permits but a thread like this makes up for the hundreds that go astray. I have long been of the opinion that the source of our discontents is our disunity arising from our failure to embrace our international metropolitan totality and identity. Historic, economic, nationalistic, racist and wealth divisions have all conspired to create our disunion. Decades of finger pointing have given rise to an overall sourness and a failure to share and solve our common problems. Not to pick on Warriorfan, who has many good contributions to the forum, but his statement epitomizes our crisis. We are a turfed-out metropolis. If my community functions and yours doesn’t, that’s your problem, not mine. If I got what I want then all is well. Since the 1950’s we have increasingly descended into an orgy of self-flagellation and blaming. Why? In 1950 about 90% of metropolitan population lived in the core cities of Detroit and Windsor. Divisions of core city vs. suburb and or governments with clearly defined racial lines did not exist. We couldn’t point at, say, the City of Detroit or a Highland Park as if they existed on another planet and run them down without the proverbial three fingers pointing back at us and getting splattered with our own mud because they were our cities. Rather than uniting through progressive annexation and, as a consequence, sharing our common burdens, we fractured into the 100 plus communities that now comprise our international metropolis. When the added dimension of racism was piled on we fell apart and shattered into the growing multiplex of fiefdoms that plague us with their aimless sprawling development. If crime, homelessness or disease ravages the City of Detroit and, increasingly the decaying inner ring burbs, suddenly it became ‘their’ problem to the 80% who now lived outside the core cities. If the City of Detroit can’t pay for the burden of caring for 80% of the regions poor, homeless, felons and disabled peoples, problems that helped drive out a tax paying middle class and their businesses, that’s ‘their’ problem. We desperately need is a unified metropolitan government to share both our burdens and benefits but the nature of our political landscape makes this virtually impossible. In the case of our Canadian Detroiters, there is the added barrier of international treaties. We need to return to the day when a Troy is merely the northend, a Canton is a Rosedale Park on the Westside, a Clinton Township a section of the eastside – back to a time when we all saw ourselves as Detroiters. Until then we will drag each other down in the mud. I don’t know how that is possible; I just know that it is what we need. To paraphrase the poet John Dunne: No community of greater Detroit is an island, entire of itself; Every community is a piece of Detroit, A part of our great city. If a St. Clair Shore be washed away by the sea, Detroit is the less, As well as if a Livonia were, As well as if a Brightmoor or a Highland Park were. Any community's death diminishes us Because we are all involved in Detroit; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee. | ||
Ray Member Username: Ray Post Number: 758 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 68.42.133.85 |
Thanks, Lowel. Hopefully I've made up a bit for all the caustic posts I made. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4064 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.162.169.62 |
Great post, Lowell. And, to paraphrase another human being who got "it," we must learn to live together as brothers, or persish together as fools. This isn't some pie-in-the-sky, overly egalitarian fluff. This is common sense, and plain survival. How much further will Detroit have to run away from its problems before it realizes that even at its fringes it is still Detroit? The region can't keep running to the "next big thing." First it was Warren, Livonia, and Southfield. Then it was Novi, Clinton, and Westland. Now it's Macomb, Chesterfield, and Canton. Who's spotlight will it be tomorrow as Canton and the like become "undesirable?" | ||
Michikraut Member Username: Michikraut Post Number: 170 Registered: 05-2004 Posted From: 217.232.121.131 |
"We are a turfed-out metropolis. If my community functions and yours doesn’t, that’s your problem, not mine. If I got what I want then all is well." is partly a result of the self-awareness and individualism from the late 60´s early 70´s. Of the greater community giving way to interests groups(feminism, gay, minority, handicap, etc) Which is many aspects was/is good and the diversity makes up richer but at the same time the overlying principle of one community working together and the conformity and monotone allowing for this adhesion fell away (think of the film "Pleasantville") This individuality-trait could also be used in many of the dicussions and upheavels taking place in our society not just in the divisions of Detroit. and yep- a good thread! And Sticks: yep- throughout the ages- just about every new building going up was either derided as being too conservative (not innovative) or two modern and unappropriate or too different. What is interesting-that after just about every different period of defined architecture: Baroque, Roccoco, Romanticism, Jugendstihl,Art Deco-Modernity- a period of classicism arose-with design and elements of greco/Roman influence and thinking coming back into vogue. So perhaps this might be a wish for basic and solid Roman values of decency and citizenship? | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4065 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.162.169.62 |
Michikraut, I have a completely different take on your first hypothesis. What it seems to me is not so much interests groups that drove us apart. In fact, I find it quite the opposite. They sought forced integration, but what ended up happening was the majority simply ran away from the minorities leaving the lesser to fend for themselves while creating their "Pleasentvilles" further and further away from those they'd left behind. You make it sound as if the minority groups were looking to divide the communities which can't be further from the truth. It was the majority, which when dragged kicking and screaming into forced intergration simply voted with their feet by moving and creating their "utopian" fortresses (i.e. Livonia, Warren, and later Sterling Heights and so on...) on the edges of the urban area. There seems to be this myth that the majority group was "driven" from cities, as if they were chased out, when it's quite clear they voluntarily (and more than gladly, even, in far too many cases) packed up and left mostly in response to forced integration. | ||
Michikraut Member Username: Michikraut Post Number: 171 Registered: 05-2004 Posted From: 217.232.121.131 |
I am not saying one way or another if interest groups helped or broke apart the greater monotone community. As a gay male- I am very thankful that the gay community evolved and spoke-up and is working on creating an independent lifestyle. Though- it is this individualism that frightens many and creates this yearning for the "good ole days" though in reality: they weren´t all "homemade baked cookies and family dinners" - a big price was paid by any individual who didn´t fit in or wanted to go their own way. The point I wanted to make is: that with this individualism it is much harder to create a "community" that is willing to subjugate some of their freedoms for the greater good. As pertaining to Detroit: the surrounding communities are not willing to unite for the greater good of "ALL" in Detroit if it means they might have to give up some of their freedoms(advantages) yes- one can say the majority (white middle class) left Detroit central in droves in the 60´s -70´s, but only because of the "racial" issue seems far-fetched to me. Not from Detroit(middle of State)- so really don´t know the whole story- but there was a great migration throughout the States and even here in Europe. With the drastic increase in Highways- many business(factories) needing bigger facilities moved to outskirts(cheaper than tearing down old and rebuilding bigger if land was available), many families had the opportunities not early available (loans, credit, higher education)and wanted to realise the "American dream of house in Suburbs with white picket fence" and went for it. Yes- some felt threatened (sometimes justified-mostly not) and left- but the main flight to the suburbs was just a developement of the damals society. | ||
Qweek Member Username: Qweek Post Number: 4 Registered: 07-2006 Posted From: 4.229.66.57 |
What does Detroit have to offer a person that they can't find in another city? It used to be a great place to come as an immigrant, that is what brought so many here in the first place, they had a chance to start a new life here. The auto industry was booming, life was good. We all know how that story is ending and it's not pretty so what do we do now? We don't have that "big" attraction, no ocean, no mountains, no Hollywood, no Wall Street, we need to find our pulse again, what is it? Could we become a great immigration center for people from other countries maybe? We need something nobody else has. We need to work with what we do know and have, Arab Americans are looking for a new beginning for instance. Detroit could be a model for the Middle East on how democracy can work for all religions and ethnicities in the Middle East, kind of a welcome center, a starting point. What would be interesting would be to have an Arab/American Television & Media center. A place where area immigrants can debate culture issues, ideas and work on diplomacy with their homeland. I have to get to work now, just thinking over my coffee, another incomplete pipe dream. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4695 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 141.217.174.229 |
If we Detroiters and suburbanites continue to bicker and fight like Israelis and Arabs then the cultural and ethnic war over community boundry marks will commence for a long time. As far as for Detroit. Most black-folks who are now living the poor ghettohoods are looking for a quicker way out from all its empty promises from KING KONG KMAME poor schools and city services. This is what a Black Detroiter are destined to move:  They already at the borders of Redford TWP. passing Telegraph and near Beech Daly Rd. They would reach Hitlerland Livonia by the year 2020.  Thanks to ethnic Jews as they continue to find their promise land in Bloomfields. For the past 30 years lots of blacks from Detroit had settled in the neighborhoods of Oak Park, Southfield and Lathrup Village. By 2020 black-folks would be at West Bloomfield and Bloomfield TWP., Farmington Hills and City of Farmington all the way up to Commence TWP., Keego Harbor, Orchard Lake they may try Berkeley, Royal Oak and Ferndale as well.  Blacks from Detroit follow the Gratiot Ave. trail to buy some of those houses in Eastpointe. They try to get into Warren, but racial problems kept them out but they still are comming. By 2020 they would up Roseville, St. Clair Shores and parts of Southern Warren. Most people think that the black-folks are the cause of culture problems in Tri-County area. Technically it's NOT true. People keep pointing blaming fingers on the white-folks, Asians, Arabs, Jews, Hispanics for cultural battles. Turn generations of people into a mongel ignorant monsters. THE BIBLE DID PROPHESIED THAT AND YOUR CHILDREN SHALL BECOME GIANTS." and its happening today. If we don't control our control or cultural differences. Then human race might as well be monsters of the Earth. | ||
Chuckles Member Username: Chuckles Post Number: 24 Registered: 02-2007 |
Danny, it is all Tribal... and some Tribes have more beads than the other Tribes... so those Tribes of the many beads think they are better than the others... so they move away from the Tribes of few beads and start up new Tribal Hoods and behave as though they were better than the others.... it is that simple yet that complicated... but it is that way... chuckles |
