  Cmubryan Member Username: Cmubryan Post Number: 299 Registered: 11-2003 |
Does anyone have pictures of the Character Inn during it's glory days as the Hyatt Regency? Does anyone know any more specifics such as years that it was a Hyatt and why the Hyatt chain abandoned it? I know it was built after Hyatt Regency Dearborn (circa 84') | ||
Kenp Member Username: Kenp Post Number: 53 Registered: 03-2006 |
It never had any glory days. Lack of business is why it was sold. I watched them build that thing about the same time they built auto world. As Auto World was being razed the Hyatt was going broke. | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 24 Registered: 07-2006 |
Cmubryan: While i can't find too much info on it, according to a Los Angeles Times review of Roger & Me on Michael Moore's site, it was built in 1982. As for the reliability of that info, i make no claim. And I gotta agree with Kenp. Not much of anything built in Flint since at least about 1980 can claim anything in the way of 'glory days'. http://www.michaelmoore.com/do geatdogfilms/rainer.html An August '85 picture of downtown shortly after Water Street Pavillion opened. Not much of the Hyatt visible, but it's all I could find. Some other pics on that site are interesting too, hence the reason I posted the link rather than just the pic. http://www.flintj.com/125/pape r/galleries/history/source/24. html | ||
Hysteria Member Username: Hysteria Post Number: 1392 Registered: 02-2006 |
Kudos to Scottr and Gumby for fielding all the questions here. Great info. | ||
Swiburn Member Username: Swiburn Post Number: 21 Registered: 07-2006 |
I kind of doubt that Flint will ever come back in any form- the population isn't growing but the infrastructure has to be maintained. it hardly matters that a few buildings downtown are better-how much of a tax writeoff are they getting? The tax base is gone. U.of Michigan can't continue taking over everything that has failed- they have the white elephant White Bldg. to pay for. | ||
Gumby Member Username: Gumby Post Number: 1402 Registered: 11-2003 |
Same could be said about Detroit, Swiburn. What should we do? Just give up because there is no more hope? Everything has to start somewhere. I am sorry I do not have a stupid defeatest attitude. | ||
Lombaowski Member Username: Lombaowski Post Number: 12 Registered: 11-2004 |
Flint is clean bitch! That is a saying written all over the abandoned houses that line MLK, DuPont, and N. Saginaw leading to downtown. Flint cannot be compared to Detroit other than it being a dying city. I interviewed the Sheriff of Flushing and had about an hour sidebar with him on Flint. He was born and raised in Flint and said that in the 50’s, 60’s, and 70’s it was a great place to raise a family and work. He said it was a true community with great spirit and pride. Well having lived there for two years I can tell you I’ve never lived in any city with less pride. It has few redeeming qualities and the infighting among black and white leadership is very overt. You still have communities like where Hamady High School is (name slips me) that hold on but have others like Beecher that have gone to hell quickly. The north side is ghetto heaven with gunfights, drugs, and terrified elderly people that won’t leave their houses. You have the east side with shoeless Caucasians with the last three cars they bought on blocks in their front yard, and you have nice neighborhoods by Mott and off Kearsley Park; and the southsiders who still maintain decent neighborhoods down to Atherton. The downtown is nice but for whom? For college students and maybe professionals but the real money usually heads to Fenton, Grand Blanc, or elsewhere to do their shopping and socializing. The cultural attractions may be the best thing for Flint since mid-Michigan in general is devoid of any such attractions. The university systems also bring a lot of kids in but all are commuter schools. UM Flint has the potential to take off but who would live in Flint if they could live in Ann Arbor? They need to concentrate on their graduate programs and build a money trail that leads into the city from the pockets of people who lived and worked there. Right now you have a bunch of kids at Mott, Kettering, Baker, and UM Flint that just want to get the hell out of Flint. I know, I got out as soon as I could. They have tried to do some nice things and the city must be credited under Williamson with at least trying to save some of its past but I see little hope for Flint (Carriage town is something I'm hopeful for). Same can be said for Saginaw which is getting about as scary as Gary Indiana and Youngstown Ohio. Saginaw is a place where things always just seem to be on edge. Not trying to be unnecessarily hard on Flint but I’ve lived in Detroit and Bay City and Flint is a lot of neither. I always found it to be a tweener town that really suffered during the deindustrialization and holds on for something that will never come back. Detroit suffered and people moved to the suburbs. Flint suffered and people moved to Florida and North Carolina. I think a lot of the intellectual capital and resistance is gone to other states while Detroit will likely be taken back someday by those who left it. Saginaw? That city is in more trouble than any city I’ve ever visited in the U.S. Do I hope Flint comes back? Hell yes I do just as much as I hope Detroit comes back. But having lived in both places I think that Detroit due to its influential cadre living in the once bedroom suburbs, has a better chance. What Flint like so many other Michigan cities needs is a shot in the arm of something, anything that will turn the tide. One way to do that is getting out of the old industrial mindset which I think still cripples the people (Bay City has done well as it actually looks better today than it did in 1990). They need to put those days behind and come up with new ideas to revive the economies and communities. I think that day will come, let’s just hope it’s sooner than later because eventually the window of revitalization and hope will close…maybe for good. If that happens to Detroit I’ll be heartbroken forever. I'm sure Flint natives feel the same. | ||
Kenp Member Username: Kenp Post Number: 56 Registered: 03-2006 |
Lombaowski said it truly and is accurate. Its not a defeatest additude, its reality. Furniture guys post to me was so off base. | ||
Gumby Member Username: Gumby Post Number: 1403 Registered: 11-2003 |
And the WSW building is hardly a white elephant. It was a much needed building and a large part of the university's master plan. WSW houses the Art department which was in need of its own space after years of being jammed into temporary spaces over the campus. It also brought the studios of WFUM channel 28 onto the campus from their less than spectacular studio at Flint Central HS. THe school was able to build a daycare center (Iworked there for almost 2 years) to serve not only the students of the school but the community. If the schol wants to continue to grow (which they do) they need to continue to make needed improvments, including student housing. They can't just sit back and expect thing to get better. You gotta be proactive not reactive. | ||
Milwaukee Member Username: Milwaukee Post Number: 165 Registered: 08-2006 |
Is Water Street Pavillion still around? Are there any stores left? I still don't understand the point of autoworld. I guess if it had succeded then I would see it in a positive light, but it just seemed like such a huge waste of money. I understand that Flint's population is shriking, but where are people going? The suburbs, out of Michigan, out of the North? How big a problem is the loss of population? Is it a really serious issue in city politics or is it just a minor issue on a big list of more important problems? | ||
Swiburn Member Username: Swiburn Post Number: 22 Registered: 07-2006 |
I agree that Flint's got to be proactive, but as a city commissioner in my (anonymous) city, you've got to balance your tax inflow vs. monies to be spent on garbage collection, police, fire, regular.city employees, their benefits, street lights, utilities on city bldgs, etc, etc. I just am not sure where the money will come from in Flint. It's hard enough to make ends meet in cities that don't have such visible problems. And I'm sure the White Bldg at UMF is useful, but I believe it's sucking money out of other areas in the budget. And to make that up, it's tuition increases, due to lack of state funding. 30? or so is the state's contribution to the general school budget. Flint's a post industrial city that needs some creative thinking, fast, and I don't think Don Williamson has a clue here. And please, no more consultants on what is the problem! We know what the problem is! | ||
Gumby Member Username: Gumby Post Number: 1404 Registered: 11-2003 |
Ok let me respond to lombaowski. Look I am not trying to be Pollyannaish here, I realize that Flint has a lot of problems and has a long way to go but it is not a lost hope like these assholes like to think.
These tags are painted on abandoned homes that have been known places of drug trade by members of the community. It is their way of showing the drug dealers that, yes, they are watching. Hardly an act of appathetic people who have no pride in their community.
Well I talked to the mayor of Munchkin City and got his opinion on the state of the rebuilding in Iraq. I am not even going to comment on your statement about no redeeming qualities.
All but Mott CC are working to change that. Kettering and Baker have built student housing with plans for more, and U of M is working on building housing and are very close to announcing something.
I would. Not everyone wants to go to a school and be a faceless student in a jam packed lecture hall. I loved the small class sizes at U of M Flint. It is great going into a class when the professor knows you by name and in many instances will go out drinking with you after class. I enjoy being friends with the head of the psych department. I loved bowling with my professors after class. Shit, the psychology department at U of M-Flint is my second family.
Funny most of the people I know really do like Flint and are activly involved in making it a better place through groups such as the "Creative Alliance". The ones that don't like Flint often feel that way because they hear a third party talking about how their friend's sister's roommate was walking alone at night through a neighborhood several miles from downtown and was robbed at gunpoint, and because of that you should never set foot downtown because you will certainly be the victim of a drive by.
You see no hope for Flint but somehow Carriage Town has hope? Now I am not trying to be negative but Carrigae Town probably has the farthest to go out of all of Flint's neighborhoods. It is infested with drugs and abandonment, all of the crackheads seem to congregate there and to top it off the police do nothing about it. My friend lives in Carriage Town and has had several runins with the local scum and the police just laugh it off and say there is nothing they can do about it. It got so bad one night he had to chase a crackhead who had tried several times to break into his house down the street with a baseball bat. So I am not sure why you single out this neighborhood as one with hope, when people like furniture guy who happens to live in a relativly crimefree neighborhood talks about his lack of problems. Oh yeah, some guy from Flushing told you so.
I agree but I thought you said there was no hope. | ||
Gumby Member Username: Gumby Post Number: 1405 Registered: 11-2003 |
Flint had an 8 million dollar surplus in their budget this year. And to top that off I believe I heard that the debts that they had under the Stanley adminstration have been payed off. Oh and UMF is not the only school that has to raise tuition. This is not a result of the WSW building, it is a result of the state providing less money to the universities. | ||
Gumby Member Username: Gumby Post Number: 1406 Registered: 11-2003 |
Oh yeah here is a funny picture form the link provided by Scottr. Even C. S. Mott thought what Nixon was saying stunk...  | ||
Gumby Member Username: Gumby Post Number: 1407 Registered: 11-2003 |
Yes it is now University Pavillion and houses U of M-Flint's Admissions office, bookstore, Registrars Office, Chancellors Office, Cashier, Academic Advising, as well as a food court on the main floor. Here is a recent pic I took of the side entrance.  A couple of Images along Saginaw next to the Pavillion.   Here is a pic of the former Hyatt.  And here is a shot of the William S. White Building which is not the reason for tuition hikes.  | ||
Gumby Member Username: Gumby Post Number: 1408 Registered: 11-2003 |
Oh here is an old shot from the link provided by scottr that shows one of the buildings in the Rowe building project before they "improved" it with stucco. 
The building you can barely see on the left is the center building (Former Jewelry World) and the one next to it is the former Carltons Stationary Store, the one with the stucco front ith the arches in the facade. WHile they were removing the front this old facade was revealed and I was rather impressed. I hope the saved it instead of sending it to a landfill. They appeared to remove it fairly carefully. /image{Construction} /image{Construction2} | ||
Gumby Member Username: Gumby Post Number: 1409 Registered: 11-2003 |
Oh here is an old shot from the link provided by scottr that shows one of the buildings in the Rowe building project before they "improved" it with stucco. 
The building you can barely see on the left is the center building (Former Jewelry World) and the one next to it is the former Carltons Stationary Store, the one with the stucco front ith the arches in the facade. WHile they were removing the front this old facade was revealed and I was rather impressed. I hope the saved it instead of sending it to a landfill. They appeared to remove it fairly carefully.   | ||
Furnitureguy Member Username: Furnitureguy Post Number: 52 Registered: 12-2003 |
I really admire your passionate and true responses gumby. You are well versed on the state of the citys affairs. Flint needs more passionate people like you to promote it even when there is such excruciating negativity and ignorance floating around. | ||
Kenp Member Username: Kenp Post Number: 58 Registered: 03-2006 |
Ignorance? Thats funny. Move this off to non-Detroit Issues. | ||
Gumby Member Username: Gumby Post Number: 1410 Registered: 11-2003 |
Thank you furnitureguy. It is hard to stay positive at times with all of the negativity that is out there. Believe me I came close to packing it in when I worked at New Paths (a community corrections program next to the now vacant Buick City site) it was hard to stay positive while working with the lowest of the low people from tis community. But I just had to realize that they were not typical of the community at large. Believe me I understand that at times it can look pretty bleak here but it really is a defeatest attitude to just say "there is no hope so why even try." I am glad that you, scottr, Kathleen and others on here are willing to look at the positives of the city. | ||
Gumby Member Username: Gumby Post Number: 1411 Registered: 11-2003 |
Shut the fuck up Kenp. If you don't like what is being said get a life and don't pay attention to us. Obviously Lowell thinks this is deserving of its location otherwise he would have moved it long ago instead of just changing the title of the thread. | ||
Kenp Member Username: Kenp Post Number: 59 Registered: 03-2006 |
fair enough. I wont post here again. I wish you would as well. Its just to hard to leave it alone when furniture guy is telling people things that are so ridiculous. Dont use this site as PR tool | ||
Gumby Member Username: Gumby Post Number: 1412 Registered: 11-2003 |
Furnitureguy is stating his personal experiences, why does that bother you? It is almost as if you won't believe anything about the city that is not negative. Oh no, someone who has never had stuff stolen or been physically assaulted, that goes against my narrow minded view of the City of Flint. Quick attack him so you don't have to change your opinion or think for yourself. | ||
Lombaowski Member Username: Lombaowski Post Number: 14 Registered: 11-2004 |
This thread is funny. Gumby I'm glad you are passionate about your city but you really don't have to be an ass about it. Maybe it's just in your nature. The only thing I like about Flint is the atmosphere on the north side. Everyone comes out in the afternoon to socialize, play a game of chance, or admire a pretty girl. Outside of that it's a shithole. I'm not going to respond to everything you wrote because no one is going to change your mind. I lived and worked in the city. All over the city on Minnesota, on Welch, and on Fenton so you can just disregard my post and get nasty as you did with the other guy. You know everything thus you have nothing to learn. I will say that the Sheriff of Flushing was a Flint city cop for 30 years and lived in the city for 50 years. He knows more about Flint than you, your family, your neighborhood, and the one next to it (with the "crack houses"). He loves Flint as much or more than you but just finds it disappointing what has happened. I think you might take a subject expert at face value and glean some information from him but that is apparently not the case as you go into defensive mode. Also I think we need to see some people in your pictures. Funny thing is there ARE NO PEOPLE IN YOUR PICTURES BECAUSE NO ONE IS DOWNTOWN. There are people at the pavilion during school but not after. There are people inside of a restaurant, but not walking around from storefront to storefront. That's because 50 yuppies think it's "cool" to go downtown to eat then rush right back to Grand Blanc so their stuff won't get jacked. Drive down to Philadelphia street to see Flint. That's where Flint is Flint guy. I remember setting up a live truck at 10 p.m. one perfect summer night in downtown Flint. We saw three drunk neighborhood guys and that is it. Flint is dead. Might as well move to Munchkin City. glllllllllllllllllllll | ||
Milwaukee Member Username: Milwaukee Post Number: 166 Registered: 08-2006 |
Gumby, thanks for the pictures. Again, really good. Have you put those new ones of downtown on your site yet? Good to hear about the old water street pavillion. What do you think the main solutions would be to really bring the whole city back. There are good first developments downtown, but even you admit that the city is facing some pretty big problems. So, how would you or any other Flint people on this thread start a far bigger scale turn around of the city and the region? | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 25 Registered: 07-2006 |
1) The White building is hardly a white elephant. UM-Flint only spent less than 2.4 million on that building, the rest was paid for by the Mott Foundation (~8.2 million grant) and a state appropriation (~25.9 million). Tuition increases have NOTHING to do with that building. UM-Flint has been a bright spot for flint, having taken over 'white elephants' like Water street and the autoworld property, and converted them to something with a good use. Source: http://www.roweincorp.com/focu sweb/UMFlint/um_cost_and_fundi ng.htm 2) how is this any less deserving of being on the etroit page than babs cancelling a concert in auburn hills? and how often do we see stuff about ann arbor on here, yet that is no more part of detroit than flint. if you don't like it, look past it. sheesh. 3) A little disclaimer: Although i am supportive of flint, and love seeing it come back, i also try to keep myself realistic about it. I know the city has some serious problems, and some will prove difficult, if not impossible to overcome. however, i do not think it is 'dead' by any means. Flint has a lot of positives, some realized, some not: the cultural center, it's location, bishop airport, um-flint, the riverfront, and even downtown itself (which is beautiful at night when the arches are lit, albeit a little too empty). But again, I'm not going to ignore Flint's shortcomings, first and foremost being the lack of jobs. and it has certainly affected my life - for the last 2 years, i've been making a 60 mile commute to warren just to work on the line (and not some high-paying white collar job). And I won't deny that I have strongly considered leaving the flint area myself, in fact, i still am. But that doesn't mean i have to talk like it will never have a chance. Lombaowski: you're right, from the 50's to 70's, flint was a great place to live and work, and that's why my parents chose to stay in the area, not knowing the downfall that was just around the corner. you have a point about the people downtown. there's no one there, because there isn't anything there. but there isn't anything there, because there is no one around. which comes first, the chicken or the egg? hopefully, developments like the rowe building will help change that. dorms for um-flint would help too, at least to help support businesses until suburbanites again realize that downtown is not completely empty. | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 26 Registered: 07-2006 |
milwaukee, as for your question as to a large scale turnaround, as many have stated before, flint needs to solve it's unemployment problems. no amount of restaurants or stores is really going to bring prosperity back to the region, what we need is some serious high-paying jobs to replace the thousands of GM jobs that we've lost. Unfortunately flint has the (absolutely true) stigma of being very pro-union. Being a union member myself, i do support them - to an extent. But the unions in flint need to get over their sense of entitlement, combine forces with the state and city governments, and come up with an unbeatable package to attract more manufacturing jobs - ideally an automotive assembly plant or two (or more!), regardless of what company. (imagine a toyota plant right in the town gm was born... maybe even on the buick city land! i'd laugh my ass off...) I could go into a whole speech about the unions, but i won't - but they are key to the whole thing. they need to show how they can add value to the company, providing a means to improve the company both product-wise and workplace-wise. They are capable of this, they just need to realize it. If flint can add a few thousand manufacturing jobs, it will go a long way to improving the area, and hopefully act as a catalyst to attract more jobs. | ||
Gumby Member Username: Gumby Post Number: 1413 Registered: 11-2003 |
Lombaowski, Really, I am the one being an ass about it, huh? Lets see where this all started. Well Kenp fired the first shot with this.
Then he countered with this in response to furniture guys post about his neighborhood...
ANd this.
I am sorry if I was a little harsh with the stfu to kenp, but attitudes like his are a dime a dozen. You want to impress me do something other than regurgitate the same old stereotypes and attack Flints supporters. Why don't you go off and create a hotfudeflint so you can laugh at those of us who happen to be optimistic and prefer not to wallow in our own self pity.
So was my grandfather, is that supposed to impress me. My grandfather was the director of police/community relations for years so do not assume that...
My mind doesn't need to be changed, I openly admit that Flint has a lot of problems to work over. I am just optimistic with the possibilities, whereas you seem to think that...
Oh and the reason there are not many folks in my pictures is partially because I took them after 6 PM when all the buisinesses close and partially because I hate taking pictures of people so I often wait for them to vacate the area so I can capture the architecture. Honestly if you think there are no people going downtown then you obviously have not been there lately and are tyuely showing your ignorance. | ||
Lombaowski Member Username: Lombaowski Post Number: 17 Registered: 11-2004 |
Gumby, My intention was not to attack any supporters of Flint. It's good that you support your city and embrace all its glory and its idiosyncrasies. I do the same with Detroit and always will. I defend Detroit to the degree that it should be defended given all the city has done to make America great. I'm also very realistic with my own (Detroiters) who I can talk real issues with. I'm sure you feel and do the same. Just keep in mind that we don't all see it the same way you do and that's ok. Plenty of people badmouth Detroit and they don't see what I see; I can deal with that. The people that agitate me are the jackasses who badmouth Detroit that have never even stepped foot outside Metro Airport. I save my speeches and venom for them (I have a lot of speeches and venom BTW). :2cents: On to Flint. Tell me a little about Welch Street and the area leading from Basset Park to DuPont. Do you know this area? How was this area in the 70's or even early 80's? What about the Ballenger Park area? That is a beautiful neighborhood and reminds me of the west side of Detroit. Nice tree lined streets, wide avenues, big front yards, and the like. Still not a bad area but it must have been great back in the day. If you have any links that talks about this area in particular I'd appreciate it. | ||
Milwaukee Member Username: Milwaukee Post Number: 167 Registered: 08-2006 |
I'm really happy, that this thread has been so succesful. It has been alot of Flint and really no Pontiac. How would all of the Flint members compare their city to Pontiac. Is Pontiac doing better or worse than Flint? | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 315 Registered: 12-2005 |
The UAW Locals in Lansing did just that and landed two new GM Assembly Plants for their workers and community. Flint could have been a contender... BTW, does Flint still have the non-resident income tax? If they do, it can't be bringing in very much revenue anymore, so I would suggest that they eliminate it as a sign that they really are serious about attracting new industries and businesses to their city. | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 27 Registered: 07-2006 |
Exactly, Mikeg. At face value, the Flint area should be near the top of the list for any new assembly plant, regardless of manufacturer - plenty of vacant land (i'd prefer they build on brownfield, but if not, there's other land to be had), transportation advantages (i-69 and i-75, int'l airport, rail), um-flint and kettering (one of the best engineering schools). even an experienced workforce would be a plus, if it wasn't for the union issue. i don't know if flint still has that tax. but if they do, i agree completely, they should eliminate it. | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 28 Registered: 07-2006 |
lombaowski: off subject, but it's interesting that you should mention the 'sheriff' of flushing (i assume you mean chief of police), because he was in the journal today - he's leaving to be assistant city manager of kalamazoo. http://www.mlive.com/news/fljo urnal/index.ssf?/base/news-39/ 1159280451302690.xml&coll=5&th ispage=1 | ||
Milwaukee Member Username: Milwaukee Post Number: 169 Registered: 08-2006 |
Just saw a picture of the new white building. I really like it. I don't live in Flint and I really have nothing to lose if Flint dies, but I feel like I'm rooting for the city more than a lot of it's citizens. Flint was/is a great city and some of you really need to know that. Scottr and Gumby definately have the right idea. No matter what, everyone should have pride in their hometown. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4499 Registered: 10-2003 |
Not to pick on you, Milwaukee, but the opinion that if a former prominent city dies no one has anything to lose, scares me, and I've noticed it far too much. If we are allowed to let any city die, and especially those with storied histories, we ALL lose. I just wish more people would realize this. People seem to be so nonchalant about the loss of history, these days. To me, history is one of your best teachers, for if we fail to learn from its mistakes we are doomed to repeat them again. This is why I don't take the loss of our history so lightly. Flint's not going, anywhere, or should I say fall too much further, but I wish people wouldn't be so nonchalant and passive about our historic cities. IMO, it's nearly criminally negligent to so passively toss aside things of the past, as if they are irrelevant. (Message edited by lmichigan on September 26, 2006) | ||
Mama_jackson Member Username: Mama_jackson Post Number: 31 Registered: 06-2006 |
Lombaowski and KenP, I have lived in the Ballenger Park area on Sloan St, way back in 1982-3. We were renting my husband grandmother's house. It was a beautiful neighborhood with NO CRIME. None. We were in the block right next to the park and the kids and I would walk to the park to play. And I guess that was probably about the time people were saying Flint was not safe to visit. The only reason we moved out of the neighborhood was because the noise from the ambulances going to Hurley day and night were loud, and we got the chance to own our own home. When my husband was a kid-back in 1960's, he would spend the entire day at the Ballenger Park's ice skating rink in the winter. He would get to skate for free and free popcorn, because he was there early to scrape the snow off the ice. He remembers absolutely no problems with crime either. He also tells about going to the park after a music concert-they used to have them all the time in all the parks in the 60's-and picking up loose change from the ground that fell out of people's pockets from the bleachers! In the early 70's, a lot of us kids used to cruise and hang out downtown. It would be alive with people and music at night! It was a blast! BBack in the mid-70's I used to work downtown Flint. I used to park across the street from the business I worked at on Saginaw St. When I would leave work late at night with the bank deposit envelope to take to the bank, I had to cross Saginaw St. to get to the vehicle. I never had a problem. I never had an escort to my vehicle, never was robbed, accosted, nothing. Did you ever hear of the bar, Silver Rail? We used to go there after work for a couple a lot. Never had a problem there either. Around '92, we used to go downtown when Churchills' had blues bands. My sister and I with our hubbies used to go there and listen and dance. And they lived in the suburban area (Lake Fenton) and drove into Flint for decent music. Again, no crimes, no problems. We live on the south side now. We have never had anything, and I mean nothing!, stolen from us. The main problem we had was with some rentors that lived (partied) next door non-stop. They moved (probably because we got the landlord's phone number and called him every time we were woke up-he got woke up!) and it isn't a rental home anymore. A nice young family lives there, starting out with a baby. So I guess you probably should rethink your blanket statements about the state of Flint crime. I never, ever had a problem with street people, thugs, drunks, or druggies. So when Furniture Guy says he hasn't had a problem with crime, i believe him. I wouldn't say the entire city is crime free, but it really isn't as bad as people make it out to be. | ||
Gumby Member Username: Gumby Post Number: 1414 Registered: 11-2003 |
Flint does still have the non-resident tax. I had to pay it up until recently when I quit the job at New Paths. (Yes, I am a non-resident, I live in Swartz Creek because I cannot afford a place of my own, new college graduate and all). I think it is a hinderance but definatley not a deal breaker for new companies to move into town. The tax is a small percentage and I for one did not mind paying it because I get to use all the cities infrastructure and amenities on a daily basis. | ||
Gumby Member Username: Gumby Post Number: 1415 Registered: 11-2003 |
Mama_jackson, I really think you are great. It is refreshing to hear positive statements coming out of a longtime resident about Flint.
Sound similar to the neighborhood some friends of mine live in. They live on Ogema just south of Leta across from Freeman Elemetary.
I think it is funny how all these people who are so afraid of Flint have no problems going to Miller Rd because it is so safe there. Genesee Valley Mall has a lot more vehicle breakins per year than downtown Flint and today at work (Miller Rd. Applebee's) we had a fist fight break out between several females in the bathrooms... in front of their young children. The police were called and my manager got clocked in her jaw as well. All I am asking for is a little consistency from people, don't unfairly disparage Flint when a lot of the same shit happpens where you go everyday.
I couldn't have said it better myself. | ||
Gumby Member Username: Gumby Post Number: 1416 Registered: 11-2003 |
Milwaukee, I really can't compare Flint's situation to that in Pontiac. I really know little about Pontiac as a city outside of my infrequent visits to its nightlife. Plus I don't think of it as a competition (not saying you were suggesting that it is) as I root for their return to greatness as well. What I can compare is Flint to Detroit as I pay quite a bit of attention to Detroit as well. Flint seems to be taking very similar steps in reviving our downtown as Detroit hs theirs. With loft conversions (First Street Lofts is our Kales Building) and luring companies from the burbs (Rowe Inc. is our Compuware) the paths are very similar. That said, Detroit has a lot more clout and gets the bigger rewards but in the long run the path is proving to be successful for us both. Like I said before the advantage downtown Flint has over Downtown Detroit is that there is a lot less to do and it will be a lot cheaper (due to the size of the respective cities). | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4504 Registered: 10-2003 |
At the same time smaller cities don't usually have the Penske's, and Ilitch's...Grand Rapids is a rare case with the DeVos's and Van Andel's. It's my belief that without them, their downtown would look very much like the rest of Michigan's. One thing I'll give Flint from the little I know about it is that you guys have a great mayor. Even if he is controversial, at times, he seems to be getting the job done. (Message edited by lmichigan on September 27, 2006) | ||
Milwaukee Member Username: Milwaukee Post Number: 170 Registered: 08-2006 |
Lmichigan, you're definitely right about how we all lose something if Flint dies. I know I've always thought of the decline of Detroit as a national tragedy, and I've thought about how that would be a major loss for America and its history. I don't really know as much about Flint or how influential it was in American history and now I feel like one of the people who definitely underappreciated the city. | ||
Kenp Member Username: Kenp Post Number: 73 Registered: 03-2006 |
Why do I have this strange feeling that the same person has many identies on this thread | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 648 Registered: 11-2003 |
Gumby-- you said a ways up in this thread that WFUM broadcasted from Central High. It actually had its studios at the Mott Memorial Building until the move to WSW. Someone asked about the Hyatt Regency opening-- it opened in 1981. As far as new industry coming to Flint-- many people seem to assume that something will magically come along to replace the auto industry. Flint first had the fur trade, then lumbering, carriage making, and automotive. Each of those industries just kind of "happened," and weren't force-fed with a zillion tax incentives and empty PR speeches. | ||
Kenp Member Username: Kenp Post Number: 75 Registered: 03-2006 |
Mott Memorial building wow, that brings back memories. Before the downtown campus of UM had a science building they bused us out there. And your right there was a studio for wfum their. I remember walking across to Central in the spring and watch Jim Abbott pitch. | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 29 Registered: 07-2006 |
Milwaukee, Flint was very influential, although many people don't realize it - it was mostly in the very early days of the auto industry, and set the stage for things we take for granted today. a few highlights: Flint was the worlds largest producer of carraiges, hence the term 'vehicle city' - it has nothing to do with cars. Billy Durant, of the Dort-Durant Carraige Company, went on to aquire various car companies and fold them into a company called General Motors. GM was born in Flint, it's not just some random town they chose to build a lot of plants in. Later, the sit-down strike forced GM to recognize the UAW. Say what you want about unions now, but the unions forced improvements in working conditions, whether it be safety or treatment of workers. They were definitely needed back then. Lmichigan: That's not entirely true. Kalamazoo, smaller than Flint, has the Strykers, #3 and #4 , and John Brown, #7, on Michigan's richest list. In comparison, DeVos is #1, #2 is William Davidson (pistons owner) #5 is Penske, and Illitch is not in the top 10. Flint used to have even more, and that legacy shows - half the town is named after former GM execs. And today we have the Mott Foundation continuing that on. One of it's four grant programs is dedicated entirely to the Flint area, and has been a catalyst for numerous developments. Also, I'd have to add that I'm glad we don't have Illitch. He'd either bulldoze everything for a parking lot, or let it rot until everyone complains it's an eyesore, then market it as a 'premier development opportunity' or some crap. while i applaud his investment in Detroit, especially during times when few others would, some things he does just angers me, and makes me wonder if it's worth it. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4505 Registered: 10-2003 |
Scott, I was talking more recently. Flint certainly has a strong history of philathropy, but it's mainly a history. My only point was that while it will take smaller amounts of money to revive Flint than Detroit, Flint is also disadvantage as you're less likely to come across huge philathropists because of the city size. It's not a knock on Flint, rather showing that both big and small cities have balance out in what it takes to bring them back. | ||
Gumby Member Username: Gumby Post Number: 1417 Registered: 11-2003 |
Lmichigan do not forget about Flint having the Mott's. We still have very influential people around here. The internationally luded philanthropic group, The Mott Foundation, is headquartered right here in Flint. Without the Mott Foundation the city would be in a sad state today. Thanks for cathcing that Burnsie. I misspoke about the WFUM studios being at Central. Now that I think about it I believe Central had some radio station studios not TV studios. That was all from memory and as always it is subject to mistakes. | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 30 Registered: 07-2006 |
although personally i wouldn't call illitch a philanthropist, i do see your point. we definitely don't have what we once did - our entire cultural center is due to their generosity, and there's definitely no one around to put that much money into flint, whether it's through something like that or a big new commercial or industrial development. however, i don't think flint will come back just because of a few generous rich people, it will be the small business owners, the 'little guy' that brings it back. i'm sure the mott foundation will have some role in it, but they insist on being partners in any development than just going in all on their own - ensuring that there are others that have a stake in keeping it going. | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 31 Registered: 07-2006 |
Gumby, you are right there - Central used to have WFBE (Flint Board of Education), which was bought a few years back and is the country station now. and i agree - if it wasn't for the Mott foundation, Flint would be unimaginably bad. it's got issues now, but nothing like what it would be without it. | ||
Milwaukee Member Username: Milwaukee Post Number: 171 Registered: 08-2006 |
Not questioning the good things that the Mott foundation has done, just interested in what they've done in Flint. Can you guys give me a list of things and projects that they've done, or are doing in Flint? | ||
Crew Member Username: Crew Post Number: 1045 Registered: 02-2004 |
http://mott.org/results-new.as p?p=Flint+Area&d=08/19/2006&td =10/31/2006 Just for starters, why not checkout the foundation's website? | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 32 Registered: 07-2006 |
as well as what is on Crew's link, I previously mentioned the $8 million+ they gave for the white building, plus they forgave the lien on the autoworld property when it was transferred to UM-flint, which if i remember right, was in the neighborhood of 25 million - i could be wrong though. in any case, that was the ONLY way they would forgive it, if the property was given to um-flint. the white building is named after william s white, the mott foundation president. They made a 1.7 million grant for the regional technology center at mott community college in 2001. 8.9 million to flint institute of music and flint institute of arts in 2003. more recently (2 weeks ago), they just transferred ownership of 5 buildings in downtown flint to uptown reinvestment, who has been instrumental in the redevelopment of several prominent properties in downtown. mott had purchased the buildings in the 90's to prevent uses 'incompatible' with a central business district. these buildings are in the same block as the mott foundation building (by the way, my grandfather was an electrician in that building) these are just a few of the more prominent grants. there are far more, smaller gifts that add up to far more than these. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 649 Registered: 11-2003 |
AutoWorld cost around $80 million to build, and by the time it was torn down, over $100 million had been blown on that colossal idiocy. I can't remember how much the Mott Foundation was responsible for, but I think it was over the $25 million that Scottr mentioned. | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 33 Registered: 07-2006 |
what mott has done for U of M (not just um-flint): http://www.mott.org/news/detai l.asp?newsid=363 i can't find anything about the lien - but perhaps that's the 2.3 million it mentions, and i just forgot the decimal point. it's been 11 years, after all... i'm only referring to the lien itself, not how much they spent on it. misguided as autoworld was, they at least tried something. and the building itself was nice... just pointless. although i did read something once about someone having their prom there, and i was envious, that would have been really cool. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4506 Registered: 10-2003 |
I really hope UofM-Flint revisits adding dormitories. You guys were so close not that long ago. That would have done wonders for foot traffic. BTW, what's the enrollment at UofM-Flint? Lansing Community College here in downtown Lansing has 20,000 enrolled, but they continue to only want to be a commuter college. With that amount of students they could have a successful dormitory program downtown. | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 34 Registered: 07-2006 |
lmichigan: Actually, UM-flint is still very interested, but they want a third party to actually operate it. The land bank bought the old durant hotel and hopes to restore/renovate it to be used as dorms. UM-flint's enrollment in winter 2006 was about 6,000 undergrads, and about 800 grad students. not nearly as much as LCC, but it's not a community college either. by comparison, mott has about 10,000 students. | ||
Cheddar_bob Member Username: Cheddar_bob Post Number: 758 Registered: 10-2003 |
I got about halfway through this thread before I started skimming. KenP, Who the fuck are you to tell Lowell where to move threads on his site? Some of us who have been here for more than a few months and 50-something posts know that discussions about Flint should be (and always have been)included with the Discuss Detroit section. So, we've got Gumby, Furnitureguy, and myself who live, work, and/or play here in Flint. We try to do things to better the place and we get some asshole who probably can't remember the last time he placed a foot in the city trying to tell us how much the place sucks. I'm just on the other side of downtown from Furnitureguy. Would you care to tell me how much crime I should be seeing in my neighborhood, KenP? Or should I just trust my own observations from living here for years? KenP: Doesn't live in Flint, but apparently is an expert in crime statistics of the greater Flint area. CheddarBob: Has lived in/near downtown Flint for years and has never experienced a crime even though he walks to the bar at midnight and walks home nearing 3 in the morning. Lombaowski: Are you a photog with a local outfit? It would be interesting to know of a colleague on DetroitYes. | ||
Kenp Member Username: Kenp Post Number: 76 Registered: 03-2006 |
Kenp does live in FLint, has been here my whole life, gradutated from UM flint work in Flint. Have been to every bar in FLint. I came very close to buying a Bar in downtown FLint 3 years ago. Im not here to downgrade FLint, but be realistic. But if you want stats CB I have first hand stories and facts. | ||
Gumby Member Username: Gumby Post Number: 1418 Registered: 11-2003 |
Well Cheddar_bob, Furnitureguy, and myself have first hand stories ourselves Kenp. Every bar in Flint, huh? I have to highly doubt that. So you've been to Times Square, The Luge (formerly The Bank, Club 810, Wildthings, The LLT, Teasers, Cloud Nine, The Torch, The Loft, Churchills, Soggy Bottom Bar, The Caboose, Purple Moon, The Machine Shop, Racers, Club Triangle, Ray's Bar, Sherman's Lounge, etc. Those are just off the top of my head, I know I am missing a lot. Especially those on the north end. | ||
Kenp Member Username: Kenp Post Number: 77 Registered: 03-2006 |
Gumby I looked at your postings on the other site and have to say I was fairly impressed with what you had to say. Your pic was interesting. I see your from SC. I lived their briefly. I will say never been to Purple moon. I am talking about bars not fluff. I invited you to the Torch, offer still stands. Do you realize there are 50 bars within 5 miles of my home. Not proud to say but I have been to them all. Teasers was a favorite hangout as well. Wasted so much money their. Im older now with kids so I have to be carefull. I am not the Flint basher you think I am, I support Flint all the time. I know what goes on here. I think furniture guy got to me because of his "observsations" I have been broken into 3 times in 5 years, evertime my family was home. Im still here. We got major problems, and instead of thinking we dont get involved. Which I realize your are. | ||
Mama_jackson Member Username: Mama_jackson Post Number: 33 Registered: 06-2006 |
Flint Institute of Art reopens on the 30th. I can't wait to see the new and improved building! http://www.flintarts.org/fia_information.html (Message edited by mama_jackson on September 28, 2006) | ||
Gumby Member Username: Gumby Post Number: 1419 Registered: 11-2003 |
I will take you up on that Torch offer. I think we got off on the wrong foot so I apologize for my STFU, once again I am an emotional guy so sometimes I speak before thinking. What neighborhood do you live in that you are getting broke into that much? I tend to believe furnitureguy's assertation that he had not been broken into based on my personal experiences in that neighborhood. I spend a little too much time in Teasers right now. It doesn't help that my friend lives just down the street and the fact that I am pretty good friends with one of the dancers there. (I was friends with her before I knew she danced there I am not one of those creepy guys who thinks the strippers really want to be their friends,  ). I thought she was going to kill me when she saw I cut my hair (from the picture on the other site). Shoot the people I know from this site would probably kill me as well. So with all that said we will start anew Kenp. | ||
Kenp Member Username: Kenp Post Number: 80 Registered: 03-2006 |
Great Gumby Im curious, why so passionate about Flint? You sound like me in 1980's. Flint was really gonna take off. New Hyatt, autoworld, um-flint, metropolition building renovation and Durant soon to follow. I have a trivia question for you Flintoids. Why didnt the Durant building renovation happen in the 80's. | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 36 Registered: 07-2006 |
Honestly kenp, i have no idea - it seems kinda like a nobrainer, given its proximity to autoworld, with the expected visitors. my guess would be that when autoworld didn't do as well as expected, therefore the hyatt suffered, so it seemed pointless to put the money into the durant just to take business away from the hyatt, and possibly kill them both instead. Personally, Kenp, i think we have more hope now. Ignoring the fact that Autoworld was a complete failure, at the time, gm had just started to cut back. in the years since, far more jobs have been cut, which didn't help the 1980's investments at all. i guess the good part is, i don't think it CAN get much worse job-wise. So the businesses coming in now are going through their toughest times now - it can only get better from here. of course, the thinking was probably much the same in the 80's (i'm 29, and don't particularly remember much of it myself) | ||
Gumby Member Username: Gumby Post Number: 1421 Registered: 11-2003 |
It is a fairly recent thing. It started with me finding this site back about 5-6 years ago. I got so interested in the Detroit stuff and started noticing alot of connections between the two cites, that got me interested in learning about the city that I lived right next to most of my life. I had a built in historian in my grandfather who is a retired City of Flint Police Seargent and in 1976 he became the first Park Ranger (Marshall Al) at Crossroads Village back when they used to dress up as well. Crossroads Village hold a very special place in the hearts of my family bot just because of all the time we got to spend there (with getting in for free) but my uncle who was in first grade back in 1976 before they opened he was seriously burned over 20% of his body (his legs) when he and a friend were playing with matches and my uncle happened to be wearing polyesther pants which just made it worse. Well during the inaugural event on the fourth of July 1976 there was a special platform built in the caboose of the train for my uncle so he could see out. The platform is still there to this day I believe. All that coupled with the fact that I started going to school at UMF all just fueled my love of this city. I just love historic architecture and Flint has so much more than you can find in the suburbs. I have converted so many of my suburban loving friends into city backers with just the passion I show towards it. I have turned itno the guy to call if someone needs to find a place in Flint and on a smaller scale Detroit. | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 37 Registered: 07-2006 |
Gumby, that's also almost exactly what's happened with me - while i've never been one of the overly negative ones, i'm usually not overly positive either - i tend to be more of a realist, somewhere in the middle, and i haven't quite made the jump to being 'passionate'. The main difference is thatt i'm a couple years behind you: i only found this site a couple years ago, and I actually even plan on transferring to UMF, so perhaps that will help spur my interest even more. (i'm taking classes at Mott right now) i've had an interest in such things for years, starting back in 1995 when i was at WMU and Detroit was first talking about the 'new tiger stadium' and all the new developments going on, and was actually going into urban planning for a time (might still). However, never having lived any closer to detroit than GB, it didn't mean much to me, so that interest kinda lanquished for awhile. it picked up more when i started my job in warren, and soon after started visiting downtown Detroit more often. only recently have i started to really realize just what's right next to me. however, i also see what the suburbs have - comparing the suburbs to flint is like comparing flint to detroit. you really can't - the scale is so completely different. Personally I love Davison's downtown. I wish GB (my hometown) had a downtown like that. | ||
Dave Member Username: Dave Post Number: 102 Registered: 10-2003 |
I grew up living between Flint and Lansing. My ties were more with Lansing than Flint, but I always appreciated the town. I still regularly go to downtown Flint because its a pleasant place to go. I especially like to hit the Mad Hatter's and go into Spagnolo's for cigars. I stayed at the Hyatt shortly after it opened and had a great time. Perfect location for a downtown hotel, hope it makes it. When I go home, I head West on Corunna Ave, which takes me right past Bubba's. For a guy my age it is impossible not to fall in love with the waitresses at Bubba's. I have always been a major fan of Lafayette Coney Island and have enjoyed arguing with my Flint friends who I admit are in the only other place in the world where you can brag about coneys in the an argument with someone from Detroit. Thanks for a great thread. dave | ||
Kenp Member Username: Kenp Post Number: 81 Registered: 03-2006 |
I ask a trivia question earlier regarding as to why didnt the Durant did not get renovated in the mid to early 80's. Doesnt anyone remember, its quite interesting. I will give a hint. The Metropolitan building or North Bank Center was restored in I thin 1984. The same guy who restored the North Bank was going to next start on the Durant. What happened. Cheddar Bob can you answer the question. By the way not to be a jerk but did you see the thread regarding the FBI Crime list. | ||
Detroitej72 Member Username: Detroitej72 Post Number: 288 Registered: 05-2006 |
Why is this in discuss Detroit? Shouldn'd it be in non-Detroit issues? | ||
Drt Member Username: Drt Post Number: 1 Registered: 10-2006 |
I lived in Flint from 1979-1993 I even got married at a local church in Flint. (1991) I remember in 1980 I went into Downtown Flint a few times a week. As that was the place to be. I remember taking the buss to windmill place, (that no one seems to talk about). Windmill had entertainers inside performing, yes it was small but it was a good place, tell the owner did not pay any bills and lost all the tenants (at least that is what I heard happened) I remember a mall on Dort Hwy that was named Small Mall, most if its stores went belly up, I remember bowling alleys that is now vacant, Movie Theaters, (no longer exist) Yes GMC did not help anything when they took a multi million dollar tax break and then not even a month later started closing up shop. Yes I agree that Flint was a Industrialized city, but them days is long gone, I submitted plans to the city leaders from California about idea’s of Auto World. (but got a thank you letter in return) In 2003I sent city an official request to use part of Downtown Flint for a Music Video and that request was denied, Flint and the citizens needs to stop thinking that GM will come back. Once GMC knocked down the buildings that should have been a wake up call to all. Can Flint come back? Yes they can they need to get out of the industrial age thinking and into the new age. Could flint be a great town again? Yes! And I am willing to bet on it by opening a business in Flint by 2008. Most of the buildings are very old and needs to be torn down and the downtown needs to be rebuilt. To modern age. Look at the San Diego Skyline ( http://www.drtproductions.com/ images/ ) imagine if Downtown Flint had a skyline like that. Flint has a river running down it. So that would look good as well. that is the most amazing skyline and San Diego is the worlds best city and one reason is the skyline.(not saying flint will be a San Diego) but it can be as nice, Flint cannot be afraid to go after federal and privet funding to rebuild flint, (sometimes it is cheaper in start over then to fix what is there Flint needs to have Clean and Safe program in Downtown they are 24 hour security and information and janitors on the streets to help people. When people feels safe they will go to an area simple as that. Llets stop wasting tax payers money on consultants and start fixing the problem. The city should pass a law that most cities has about buildings that is not kept up to par. $5,000.00/day fine for a building that is not up to code. Or 5 years in prison. And if the city has to fix it up the owner gets fined 3x the amount. If downtown Flint looks the part people will come back. The 2nd issue is: the crime rate it don’t help a city that is in the top 5 of a most dangerous cities, the police department has to take a firm stand on crime not in just one area but all the city, Then all the bad reports on CNN about how the state had to take the city over for money coming up missing and the city had to file bankruptcy that is bad as that hurt there ratings for issuing bonds. Once Flint can resolve them issues and get a positive light in the media. Then Flint has a chance, but f Flint keeps listening to people that has only money to line there pocket at stake then flint has no chance to survive, and Yes Auto world was nothing more then for a few to make it rich. I seen images that Kersely park was once a small amusement park with rides. ( why did the city close that down) The city leaders should consult with other s like San Diego new York. Right now have a few that is profiting big time the city stands now. So if all citizens that is in flint stands and makes a clear message they want something different then nothing will happen. Like I said my wife was born and raised in Flint and I can see a nice clean neat town called flint, it s up to the community to let the leaders now what is most important. Please comment on what I said…. (Message edited by drt on October 16, 2006) |
