  Detroitman Member Username: Detroitman Post Number: 1013 Registered: 06-2004 |
Book-Cadillac sells $1M condos, sight unseen Historic Detroit structure is being transformed into a 455-room Westin hotel, 67 homes and stores. Louis Aguilar / The Detroit News http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20061013/M ETRO/610130414/1003 | ||
Boynamedsue Member Username: Boynamedsue Post Number: 3 Registered: 03-2005 |
related article from the Free Press: Book-Cadillac penthouses go for $1 million http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=2006610130317 | ||
Chitaku Member Username: Chitaku Post Number: 810 Registered: 03-2006 |
What a rip off, I think the landlords around here charge a bit much for rent | ||
Grey Member Username: Grey Post Number: 257 Registered: 05-2004 |
That is not rent. Those are condos. It is an investment, don't ya know. | ||
Artistic Member Username: Artistic Post Number: 4 Registered: 09-2006 |
Developers do not invest 180 million dollars if they do not see change coming. Detroit is in its early stage of apt./condo purchasing.The conversion process from old hotel to partial condos as well as the Elliot building and 1001 wooward are all signs that there is a stronge desire for the urban lifestyle. This is only the beginning. | ||
Kpm Member Username: Kpm Post Number: 13 Registered: 08-2005 |
Is anyone going to the pre-sale event for these condos tomorrow at the DAC? | ||
Mind_field Member Username: Mind_field Post Number: 629 Registered: 10-2003 |
I will be very interested to hear how well the pre-sale event goes tomorrow at the DAC. Chicago sells million dollar condos downtown like they are 5 cent candy. I wonder who the buyers of these high end condos are? Who will spend over $1 million to live in downtown detroit? | ||
Rjlj Member Username: Rjlj Post Number: 162 Registered: 11-2003 |
This is AWESOME NEWS. Keep the pace moving. | ||
Neilr Member Username: Neilr Post Number: 357 Registered: 06-2005 |
The penthouse at the Pierre Hotel located at 795 5th Avenue, NYC, is still for sale with an asking price of $70,00,000. | ||
Artistic Member Username: Artistic Post Number: 5 Registered: 09-2006 |
By comparision, which Detroit can not do at this time with New York or Chicago the average price point for a downtown Detroit Apt. is roughly 325,000.00 if your looking in the newly announced projects. Detroit was on par with New York and Chicago many many years ago. As Detroit continues to move forward I suspect the real estate enviornment in Downtown will move upward as. You know the old saying about if I only bought when they were cheap, these are rare ground floor opportunities in Detroit and the developers from Detroit and around the U.S. that are investing in it know vey well what there doing. Detroit is the city to watch over the next 5 years. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 10749 Registered: 10-2003 |
What should I be watching for? | ||
Artistic Member Username: Artistic Post Number: 6 Registered: 09-2006 |
The media (local and national) telling the story of how Detroit is truly seeing a Renaissance. Remember that nothing ever stays the same. | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 8887 Registered: 10-2003 |
When the murder rate falls below 200 (an arbitrary number), car thefts drop off the list of top 10 cities, police respond in under 5 minutes then I and everyone else will believe in a "Renaissance" (capitalized on Artistic's behalf). | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8004 Registered: 10-2003 |
Well as long as we get your approval then all will be wonderful. | ||
Artistic Member Username: Artistic Post Number: 7 Registered: 09-2006 |
By no means do I mean that there is not alot of work to be done. It took decades to get this way. I do agree with you on the crime issues. I also choose to move forward with positive energy. | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 8889 Registered: 10-2003 |
Sorry Mr. Sunshine but not only MY approval but the rest of the planet. Ever wonder why Detroit is bypassed ona consistent basis? The city has become irrelevant. But if you want to continue to live in delusion have at it. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 10750 Registered: 10-2003 |
...so then you'll move here? | ||
Mind_field Member Username: Mind_field Post Number: 630 Registered: 10-2003 |
I have to agree with Goat. The crushing impact of crime and the stigma attached with Detroit and it's violent legacy will squash any full blown renaissance on the scale of other cities. Sure Detroit will remain SE michigans, if not the entire state's premiere entertainment destination, whether it be sports, culture or dining, but a full blown residential renaissance will likely be crushed by crime. Unfortunate. | ||
Artistic Member Username: Artistic Post Number: 8 Registered: 09-2006 |
I'll be taking residency at 1001 Woodward. | ||
Bussey Member Username: Bussey Post Number: 257 Registered: 12-2003 |
if the city is so irrelevant then why did MLB bring the All Star Game here, why are people moving back downtown, why are there more housing starts here than any other place in MI, why did the Super Bowl come here, why did the Lions move back here, why did Karmanos build his new HQ here, and why is Detroit even being considered for Rock's new HQ? Irrelevant | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8005 Registered: 10-2003 |
Not delusional. I know the problems are here. We all know the problems are here. I just like how you can beat the same drum whenever anything positive comes up. We are a long distance away from being the city we strive for but that doesn't change that this is a positive thing for the city. It would be like you saying "Hey, I won 5 bucks" and me replying with "Oh well, your wife is still an ugly bitch." I am not saying that to be fact as I do not know nor have I ever seen your wife. Just illustrating the point. | ||
Detroitduo Member Username: Detroitduo Post Number: 733 Registered: 06-2005 |
LOL! since I bought 6 years ago, does that mean I got in below the "floor"? gosh, I hope so... :-P | ||
Dtrain Member Username: Dtrain Post Number: 50 Registered: 11-2003 |
If I said I lost 5 bucks would that change your mind? | ||
Dalangdon Member Username: Dalangdon Post Number: 86 Registered: 03-2006 |
A friend of mine likes to tell the story about how he could have bought a condo in Marina City in Chicago for some ridiculously low price, and now they are worth ten times the money. That was back when - he claims - downtown Chicago was a "wasteland". Of course, I come from the Omaha area, and if he thinks downtown Chicago was ever a wasteland, I don't know what he'd make of downtown Omaha, where they are still tearing anythign of interest down in favor of parking lots, even though the consensus seems to be "nobody goes downtown". So you never know. But the rich don't get that way by throwing money away on charity projects, so if people are putting that kind of money in to the Book-Cadillac condos, you can be sure there's a pretty good market for real estate developing. | ||
Artistic Member Username: Artistic Post Number: 9 Registered: 09-2006 |
I agree, I now 2 people that are going to the Book tommorrow with check book in hand. | ||
Mrjoshua Member Username: Mrjoshua Post Number: 925 Registered: 03-2005 |
I think the Book-Cadillac will be a very nice place to live, but for some reason I have the feeling that this is a publicity stunt. Either some very nostalgic old money put their money down or the developer's relatives/friends were fronted money as a down payment. Could be wrong, the whole thing just seems fishy. | ||
Gdub Member Username: Gdub Post Number: 1079 Registered: 10-2003 |
It shouldn't be surprising that a few people will (apparently) pony up the dough for the high-end units--there are always a few people with that kind of wealth who might be interested in such an environment. But it hardly signals a real trend. Most downtowns will have a market for at least a few very high-end units. What I would be skeptical about is the prediction that every unit will be sold by December. That assertion by Ferchill sounds way far-fetched, and I'd be surprised if a third of the units had deposits on them by then. | ||
Eric Member Username: Eric Post Number: 559 Registered: 11-2004 |
Ferchill said market studies indicated that units would sell quickly. I guess the study was contrived was too? I would say it amazes me how some people are in complete denial that something like could happened in Detroit given what happened downtown in the last 5-10 years. But Ann Lang head the DDP said last week on Spotlight on News that her biggest challage was downtown's image was far behind the reality.
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Llyn Member Username: Llyn Post Number: 1655 Registered: 06-2004 |
Here is my favorite quote... and it indicates that the facts continue to fly in the face of pessimism...
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Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 3101 Registered: 10-2003 |
Pied de terre - why not have a cabin downtown as opposed one up north. I am willing wager that a good share of the new properties are being used for that. A lot of NYC is likewise turfed out. With downtown becoming exciting again, the attractiveness of this is growing. I have met a number of people of means who are thinking this way. Telling in the demographics was this paragraph. "But the small net-gain belies the fact that 4,000 new residents moved downtown from 2000 to 2005, offsetting the loss of residents in low-income housing. Two of three of the new downtowners came from the suburbs and a third work outside of Detroit." Population remaining level, per capita income soaring. Those measurements do not include similar developments in the cultural center area. Welcome to the 'vertical suburb'. | ||
Southen Member Username: Southen Post Number: 8 Registered: 08-2006 |
If Ferchill is looking for other historic downtown properties to restore why doesnt he start with the Commerce Building. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2231 Registered: 10-2003 |
The building's getting torn down for parking. If it's getting torn down for parking that means there's no parking near the building. If there's no attached parking there is no possible way to get financing for the project. You're losing one building to get 2 others renovated. Seems like a good tradeoff to me. There are plenty of empty buildings downtown. Unfortunately in this market you need an empty building and a place to get attached parking. The building is easy. The attached parking is the problem. (Message edited by ndavies on October 13, 2006) | ||
Crawford Member Username: Crawford Post Number: 1 Registered: 10-2006 |
I am willing to bet these articles are developer BS. My mom sells homes in the Birmingham/Bloomfield Hills market. She pretty much only deals with affluent families. The market, especially above 500K, has been completely DEAD since the beginning of the summer. For 1.5 million, you can get the best home in Birmingham, or one of the best homes in Bloomfield Hills. Heck, you can buy a bungalow tear-down in Birmingham for 220K (west of Woodward, walking distance to downtown,), on which you can build a snug dream home. My brother just paid that sum for such a site. These developers are claiming that affluent metro Detroiters are refusing to pay 500K for a big home in a fancy suburb, yet are willing to pay 1.5 million for an apartment on vacant Washington Boulevard, in a building with a mid-range Westin. Westin isn't a luxury brand like Four Seasons, Ritz Carlton, Mandarin Oriental, etc. There is little value to having a crappy chain hotel in the building. I'm sure the developer will claim that the Book Cadillac market is driven by empty nesters who no longer desire the upkeep on a large home and want a more urbane lifestyle. At the same time, the luxury condo market in Birmingham has ground to a halt, and cheaper Royal Oak is only slightly better off. Current list prices per square foot for the BEST condos in downtown Birmingham (the Wilits) are lower than at the Book Cadillac. | ||
Apbest Member Username: Apbest Post Number: 219 Registered: 03-2006 |
1.5 mil for the best home in Bloomfield Hills? i dont think so, try like 8-10mil for the BEST, 1.5 for standard... this is not comprable to single family homes in suburbs like Birmingham/Bloomfield | ||
Histeric Member Username: Histeric Post Number: 731 Registered: 10-2003 |
I'll take that bet since you are comparing apples and oranges. What the naysayers fail to realize, or acknowledge, is that these units are among the first FOR SALE units in the Central Business District. That's right, until very recently there have been exactly ZERO opportunities to own a condo in the CBD and as of this moment, there is not one single owner occupied condo in the CBD. It shouldn't come as a big suprise that there is a bit of built up demand in such a market. How deep is that demand is another question but really, you are such Detroit bashers that you don't think our market can absorb the first 100 for sale condos in the entire history of our CBD. You folks are clueless. | ||
Crawford Member Username: Crawford Post Number: 2 Registered: 10-2006 |
^ I said 1.5 mil for the best in Birmingham. Nobody is stupid enough to pay 4-5 mil for a home in Bloomfield right now; 8-10 mil is ridiculous in the current Detroit economy. I understand that downtown Detroit is not directly comparable to wealthy burbs, but it is interesting that the market is DEAD in these communities, while at the same time Ferchill suspiciously claims a frenzy of interest. Also, the Birmingham condo market (which is at least loosely comparable to downtown) is a big fat zero. Does the law of supply and demand not apply south of 8 Mile? Does the homely Westin magically morph into Cinderella? | ||
Crawford Member Username: Crawford Post Number: 3 Registered: 10-2006 |
Histeric, you appear to be misinformed and overly optimistic regarding the downtown sales market. There is currently a TON of product for sale. I can easily name a dozen properties that are currently being marketed, from riverfront high rises (Riverfront Towers) to Woodward Corridor lofts. This market is not magically immune to the dip in the metro Detroit economy. | ||
Histeric Member Username: Histeric Post Number: 732 Registered: 10-2003 |
OK Crawford. I am the misinformed one. Now list one single owner occupied condo in the CBD for us misinformed optimists. | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 7015 Registered: 10-2003 |
Histeric, you appear to be misinformed and overly optimistic regarding the downtown sales market. (deep breath) BAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa hahahahahahahahaha. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2232 Registered: 10-2003 |
You're the clueless one Crawford. There are no for sale units in the CBD. Riverfront is not in the CBD. They are technically in corktown. The lofts on Woodward, the Kales and Merchants Row are all rental. LMAO up at Crawford calling Histeric misinformed. He/She needs to do some searching through the archives. | ||
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 3103 Registered: 10-2003 |
Maybe the Birmingham market is dead because it has peaked out, good economy or bad. IMO, it has been grossly overpriced for quite awhile. The properties being created downtown and in midtown are unique to the meropolis, there's simply nothing like them and if one likes downtown lifetop notch museums, orchestras, and sports, clubs, what-the-hell even casinos set amid dramatic architecture, there is no match them or their location. It doesn't exist anywhere else this side of Chicago and, no, it can be built. Ask Novi. That's is the buzz I am catching from people who are looking at downtown for a second residence. Some will just dip their toes in with their pied de terres; some will stay. It's not so big and scarry down there anymore. It also is appearing to be a good investment deal, especially considering how much more you can buy downtown as opposed to, say, Birmingham. Downtown talk is abuzz really driven by the Tigers good vibe. | ||
Spartacus Member Username: Spartacus Post Number: 148 Registered: 07-2005 |
Crawford you are badly misinformed. You can not touch the best house in Birmingham for 1.5M. You can't even touch the best condos in Bham for 1.5 million. As for Bloomfield, you need to pay north of 10Million for the nicest homes. If someone bought a house in Bham for 220 in walking distance of downtown I'm guessing your definition of walking distance isn't the same as mine. | ||
Matt Member Username: Matt Post Number: 1110 Registered: 10-2003 |
[Crawford] {insert foot into mouth here} | ||
Artistic Member Username: Artistic Post Number: 10 Registered: 09-2006 |
There is one simple reality that is taking place in Metro Detroit. The region has not had a vibrant Downtown Detroit in along time,not saying that it has been completly dead, just not all it could be. Birmingham, Royal Oak, Bloomfield Hills, Rochester and on and on have all gained in many different ways all of the things people desire, I have spoke to people in these communities about the Detroit turnaround and most comments are negative ofcourse! Are we are own worst enemy....Birmingham is beautiful and very as a matter of fact. Detroit offers the urban extreme, and yes folks there are those of us who do not want to put 500,000.00 or more down in Birmingham....I would rather do it Detroit and enjoy the ride...good and bad. | ||
Crawford Member Username: Crawford Post Number: 4 Registered: 10-2006 |
Wow, I'm far away in Brooklyn, yet I seem to have a better grasp of the D condo market than certain downtown residents... A (not necessarily comprehensive) list of current condo projects in downtown Detroit: 1. Riverfront Condominiums 2. The Park Shelton 3. 1300 Lafayette 4. Carlton Loft Condominums 5. Edmund Place 6. 200 River Place 7. The Lancaster 8. The Ellington 9. Canfield Lofts 10. The Lamar 11. The Carola 12. 476 Prentis 13. Grinell Place 14. Something Crosswinds in New Centerish area 15. Crosswinds along Woodward 16. The Van Vielt 17. Springfield Lofts 18. Harbortown 19. Some conversion in Indian Village Naysayers, keep in mind I am NOT saying that the Book Cadillac will be a failure. I think it will do fairly well. At the same time I am very suspicious of the quoted sales prices and the claimed level of interest. | ||
Histeric Member Username: Histeric Post Number: 733 Registered: 10-2003 |
Not a single project listed is in the Central Business District. Care to try again? | ||
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa Post Number: 1191 Registered: 11-2003 |
But you have ZERO grasp of the downtown/CBD boundaries. | ||
Histeric Member Username: Histeric Post Number: 734 Registered: 10-2003 |
Think predepression skyscrapers, urban canyons, dense urban fabric, pedestrian friendly scale and you might begin to understand. | ||
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa Post Number: 1192 Registered: 11-2003 |
Didn't want to repeat Histeric, we were posting at the same time... | ||
Artistic Member Username: Artistic Post Number: 11 Registered: 09-2006 |
Coming Soon to the CBD 1001 Wooward Vinton Building Book Cadillac The Elliott All for Purchase, not rent | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2233 Registered: 10-2003 |
None of the projects you've listed are downtown. They are in Midtown: Corktown: New Center: Lafayette Park: New Center: East Side/Indian Village: None are downtown. Maybe you should come back when you understand that Detroit is a city of neighborhoods. All with very different vibes. | ||
Rrl Member Username: Rrl Post Number: 672 Registered: 12-2003 |
I thought Vinton was all spoken for by investors. Are they selling units/floors? | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 8890 Registered: 10-2003 |
Sport, I have already bought a house in my downtown and I am on the board of directors for a non-profit park. I am also promoting the urban village in my area amongst other things. If I could purchase some property or buldings in the Detroit area I would. Suffice to say that I have my hands full at this present time. | ||
Histeric Member Username: Histeric Post Number: 735 Registered: 10-2003 |
And to address the crime issue for the umpteenth time, Detroit has one of the safest downtowns in the country. Statistically, it is safer than the parking lot at Great Lakes Crossing. Goat and friends can take over CL's role as the broken record player, but that won't change the reality. As residential density increases in the CBD, and the services follow, downtown residents will have as much in common with Detroit's crime problem as residents of Bham,Royal Oak, etc. Why is that so hard for you folks to understand. Downtown Detroit, Corktown, and many other enclaves are not the same as Harper and Van Dyke. Try to wrap your brains around that fact. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2234 Registered: 10-2003 |
The Vinton is the first for sale property offered downtown. It is 100% sold. Maybe you should look at this thread and the names of the people involved. https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/mes sages/62684/61276.html | ||
Crawford Member Username: Crawford Post Number: 5 Registered: 10-2006 |
Um, so Riverfront Towers is no longer downtown, sure. Downtown does not have official boundaries, nor does the real estate market. You can't just claim that something doesn't "count" as competition beacuse your preconceived notion of the downtown market is like five blocks of prewar buildings. In terms of the potential real estate market, what qualifies as "downtown" is anything within the freeway loop and along the intown Woodward/Jefferson corridors (i.e., anything remotely urban and walkable within Detroit city limits). | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 8891 Registered: 10-2003 |
Jt1, I agree this is great for the city, but for those yah yah types there is a long way to go. I didn't mean to come across as being negative on this issue. I get tired of hearing about this so-called renaissance. Yes, the downtown area has seen an influx of remodeling, renovations and new construction but the neighbourhoods continue to see a decline except a few. When these changes occur then a true renaissance can be said. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2235 Registered: 10-2003 |
The riverfront towers are in Corktown. They are a gated fortress that happen to be connected to downtown by the people mover. No one wanting to live in a real downtown would want to live there. They are hard to get in and out of from downtown. They are a suburbanites dream of downtown. | ||
Artistic Member Username: Artistic Post Number: 12 Registered: 09-2006 |
Vinton Building is advertising on Downtown Detroit Partnership web site. 500K to 1 Million | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2236 Registered: 10-2003 |
I don't know what they're advertising. We never asked or paid them to advertise. There is nothing for sale. It is all sold. Call the number provided and ask. Ndavies, Secretary of the board, Vinton Building Development LLC. | ||
Artistic Member Username: Artistic Post Number: 13 Registered: 09-2006 |
Thanks for the update, I just looked at the site and indeed it is being advertised. | ||
Histeric Member Username: Histeric Post Number: 737 Registered: 10-2003 |
Well I can say without hesitation that the penthouse is NOT for sale. | ||
Crawford Member Username: Crawford Post Number: 6 Registered: 10-2006 |
Sparatacus, you are so wrong about the Bham/Bloomfield market. If you want to speak with brokers with the big listings, I can oblige. Nothing has moved since about June. There are no sales in Birmingham north of 1.5, and almost nothing in Bloomfield north of 2. People with money are sitting this one out. The big spenders will be back, but not until the economic winds have cleared up. And yes, you can buy a bungalow within walking distance (about a half-mile) to downtown Birmingham for 220K if the house needs work. Look south of downtown, towards 14 Mile. The same homes were going for 300K+ just a few months ago, but the tear-down market has evaporated, so the current buyers are looking to actually live in the homes rather than demolish. This means these crappy bungalows have plummeted in value. The previous value was in the land, not the home, so owners tended not to invest in properties because it would have previously had no bearing on resale value. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2237 Registered: 10-2003 |
And neither is the 10th floor. (As I continue to refine the design of my interior layout and home theatre.)  | ||
Artistic Member Username: Artistic Post Number: 14 Registered: 09-2006 |
Make sure to stop in the second location of Eph Mcnallys on Dec 1st at 608 Wooward...great sandwiches. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2238 Registered: 10-2003 |
I think Hysteric may already know that. Defineitly falls under the category of "You don't know who the fuck I am" (Message edited by ndavies on October 13, 2006) | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 8892 Registered: 10-2003 |
I never said crime was major problem downtown (though the recent shootings of late and the cars that are being vandalized sure haven't helped)but it is in the city itself. I promote the downtown as much as anyone and I actually let people know that Detroit's downtown is actually safer than Windsor's. But Detroit is not just the downtown nor it is just corktown (of course I don't have to tell you that). There is a long way to go before someone can claim Detroit is in a renaissance. | ||
Matt Member Username: Matt Post Number: 1111 Registered: 10-2003 |
Sorry for such a crude map, but I do not have Photoshop at work...  | ||
Artistic Member Username: Artistic Post Number: 15 Registered: 09-2006 |
I do not know who you are. | ||
Histeric Member Username: Histeric Post Number: 738 Registered: 10-2003 |
OK Crawford, I tried to gently coax you into doing your homework before you got in too deep but if you want to get cocky about it...I will type real slow so you can understand. First of all, I didn't use the term downtown for the simple reason that the boundaries of downtown/greater downtown are not readily definable or understood by the general public. Make no mistake, however, that Riverfront Towers are technically outside of the boundaries of the Downtown Citizens District Council and included in the boundaries of Greater Corktown D.C. But back to what I said, which is there in black and yellow for all to read, I said CENTRAL BUSINESS DISTRICT and the CBD does in fact have easily understood boundaries. They are the freeways that create a horseshoe around the most dense, pedestrian friendly section of Greater Downtown. So I repeat my challenge. List one single owner occupied condo in the Central Business District. You can't. The first owner occupied condo units in the entire history of the CBD will be the Vinton Building, a development which I happen to be Managing Partner of. Any other smartass comments? | ||
Histeric Member Username: Histeric Post Number: 739 Registered: 10-2003 |
Thanks for the visual aid Matt. Artistic, I think Norm was talking about my ownership interest/involvement in 608 and the new downtown Eph's. Being at home sick can be a bit much when you get on this site. | ||
Artistic Member Username: Artistic Post Number: 16 Registered: 09-2006 |
Thanks for the information. I was just introduced to this site and I'm the newbie on the block. | ||
Histeric Member Username: Histeric Post Number: 740 Registered: 10-2003 |
Goat, I think we are having a disconnect. Nobody I know of is under the illusion that the whole city is seeing a renaissance but one would have to be blind not to acknowledge the renaissance taking place in the inner core, roughly bounded by the Grand Boulevard horseshoe loop. It is the old donut theory of urban history where the donut hole empties out, then the donut hole fills back in, never to be abandoned again...making it (eventually) the most expensive real estate in the state, including bham, gp, bloomfield. This urban story has been retold for time and all eternity. And as unique as Detroit is, it won't escape/avoid the same story. It is just taking longer. | ||
Eric Member Username: Eric Post Number: 560 Registered: 11-2004 |
Wow, I'm far away in Brooklyn, yet I seem to have a better grasp of the D condo market than certain downtown residents You don't have grasp on a single thing many people here are very involved with downtown real estate, maybe you should think about listening to them. I also suggest a really good mouthwash to get that foot taste out of your mouth
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Sknutson Member Username: Sknutson Post Number: 718 Registered: 03-2004 |
I think Matt's map is really pretty. | ||
Crawford Member Username: Crawford Post Number: 7 Registered: 10-2006 |
Histeric, in the United States the term CBD is used interchangeably with downtown, central city, city core, etc. and for all practical purposes is the same thing, whether or not some citizens council has a map with "official" boundaries. I thought your point was that the Book Cadillac was so expensive relative to Bloomfield because (unlike in Bloomfield) there was so little competitive supply. How do the 19 other buildings I listed not count as competition just because the Citizens Council or whatever busybodies don't represent their blocks? It's the same market. Downtown isn't surrounded by electic fencing and booby traps. If you are looking for culture, diversity and an urban experience, there's no distinction between a property within or just beyond the freeway loop. Again, I want to reiterate that I believe in the Book Cadillac and downtown. I am suspicious of developer hyperbole, especially given regional economic conditions and lack of movement in the metro area luxury market. | ||
Crawford Member Username: Crawford Post Number: 8 Registered: 10-2006 |
Eric, I believe I have touched a nerve with yourself and others because you have a financial interest in the downtown sales market. Nothing wrong with optimism but give me a break. Your quotes re. the metro homebuyers market mean nothing in the context of downtown condo demand. Downtown is a small luxury market and is not at all in competition with some random bungalow near City Airport. Downtown is in competition with Royal Oak, Ferndale, maybe Dearborn. I doubt more than 2% of recent sales in the City are downtown area condos. At this early stage, the relative health of the downtown market will not influence citywide figures. If there is available sales data by Census Tract or zip code then you might have a strong argument in your favor. Otherwise, I'm not going gauge the market based on comments by Fernhill or downtown property owners. | ||
Histeric Member Username: Histeric Post Number: 742 Registered: 10-2003 |
If you can't (or won't) understand the difference between the CBD and the outlying areas, I don't know what to say to you. I guess the value of real estate in Brooklyn is comparable to Manhattan also, huh? You obviously have alot to learn about urbanity, the people who are attracted to it, and the qualities that increase the value of a particular location. There is not one project on your list that is comparable in price or value to a condo in the CBD. They are not the same market. Sorry. Otherwise, why would all of my partners, who currently live in the areas you listed, be so hot for a move to the Vinton. It is very simple. Vertical zoning in a region of horizontal zoning my friend. Brush Park has a few towers but is for the most part, horizontal. Corktown has the train station but is for the most part, horizontal. Midtown may have some cultural gems but still lacks the concentration of vertical. The CBD has urban canyons, the areas you listed don't. In the world of real estate, being in the very center of it all has its value and given the FACT that there is NOT ONE SINGLE OWNER OCCUPIED CONDO in the Central Business District means that we can be confident that we haven't begun to approach saturation of our absorbtion rate. Get it Brooklyn Boy. | ||
Dalangdon Member Username: Dalangdon Post Number: 87 Registered: 03-2006 |
I think the thing that makes the Book-Cadillac unique from other projects is that this is a building that will offer housekeeping services, hospitality services, and other amenities that are not normally available in a condo project. It's basically a rehash of the old apartment hotel concept. This will make the condos attractive to law firms, advertising agencies, and other corporations that bring exectutives into town for extended stays. They are essentially marketing to an entirely different demographic than the average condo, even the average high-end condo. | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 572 Registered: 09-2005 |
Aside: Histeric, what do you mean by (forum) purge? Have I missed something? | ||
Eric Member Username: Eric Post Number: 561 Registered: 11-2004 |
It has nothing to with a vested interest you touched a nerve because of your utter lack comprehension The BC is by far the city's most luxurious condo project, NONE of the products you listed compares to it the BC is merely meeting the demand for this type of product in the city. You can be in denial all you want, but there is demand for this in the city. The downtown area has been so far relatively immune to the regions housing woes, what makes you think this would not apply to the luxury condo market? (Message edited by eric on October 13, 2006) | ||
Naturalsister Member Username: Naturalsister Post Number: 828 Registered: 11-2004 |
Good point Eric. I don't think a lot of people realise the value (to a certain income bracket) of property in a CBD this close to an international waterway. Even if, in spite of, and etc that it is Detroit with all of its issues and problems. later - naturalsister | ||
Drm Member Username: Drm Post Number: 1064 Registered: 10-2003 |
This is entertaining. Almost reminds me of the old, old days around here. Crawford, when you're talking about walkable distances, 200 River Place is a world away from the Vinton Building. Even Riverfront Towers is probably a 20 minute walk for the average person. While you can easily walk to every sporting event, the riverfront, downtown offices, Cobo Hall, etc. from the Vinton Building or the Book Cadillac, the same cannot be said for most of your examples. Sure, it can be done, but it's beyond the comfort range of most people. That's a big difference in location. Also, as Histeric pointed out, you're talking about the difference between horizontal development (most of your examples) and vertical (CBD developments). Another significant difference. Upinottawa, many of the more active (and some of the more intelligent) members were banned about 3-4 weeks ago. I think you can find the evidence in the Detroit Connections section. | ||
Histeric Member Username: Histeric Post Number: 744 Registered: 10-2003 |
Very good observation Dalangdon. | ||
Detroitbill Member Username: Detroitbill Post Number: 42 Registered: 09-2006 |
Some people on this need to understand that there are many of us who do not want to live in Birmingham, Royal Oak, Bloomfield, etc, I am one of them, was there for three years and moved back last summer,,(Downtown for 12 years before that) Our neighborhood in Lafayette Park is full of people like myself, We also get many people who come from other cities who ask why anyone who enjoys the city would want to live "out there" Those areas are nice by all means but by no means can be considered urban by living standards. As meny people who move in my area have said at our board meetings, they want to live in a city , not a upscale suburb,,, it really says it best. I find alot of my suburban friends still have no concept of what you can do living downtown. When they come down they continually say how surprised they are,, All they need to do is use their own eyes and see whats going on..At the ball game today I had people behind me commenting how much they are starting to enjoy downtown, This is exactly how this momentum grows. | ||
Imperfectly Member Username: Imperfectly Post Number: 139 Registered: 06-2004 |
detroitbill- i feel the same way. since moving into lafayette park 6 weeks ago my friends who live in the inner suburbs are all jealous of my place and closeness to everything going on. the only thing that holds them back is the schools...they have little kids. its amazing how perception can change when you actually spend time down here. i do have a question...i own at the leland lofts lets say in 5-10 years i want to be in the CBD, will i make enough on my sale here to move there...just asking for opinions. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 6904 Registered: 12-2003 |
Too many variables, Imperfectly. Histeric nails his predictions and not a one of us will ever be able to call him or Ndavies neighbor. It's part of their evil plan... | ||
Detroitbill Member Username: Detroitbill Post Number: 43 Registered: 09-2006 |
Imperfect : Very hard to tell,, I made a 70% profit on a co-op I owned from 93-'02.. but there was highs and lows during,The present place I bought is hard to gauge that way but I purchased it because I really like the neighborhood and people and closeness to downtown, I walk to many things (the ballgame today for one) . Many weekends I dont even turn on my car. I had thought Leland prices were similar to many in CBD area,,, my own personal opinion is Lafayette Park is so close to downtown that I dont want to move,, Alot of value, great people , unique architecture and people who really care about this city, Its a good feel. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 526 Registered: 02-2006 |
Crawford probably would list rehabs in Bed-Stuy as Williamsburg, because hey, boundaries are just made up. While we're at it, Queensbridge might as well be called Murray Hill or Midtown. | ||
Erikd Member Username: Erikd Post Number: 742 Registered: 10-2003 |
Goat, You are thinking like a Canadian. The incredible amount of crime in Detroit is hard to imagine for a person living in any developed country other than America, but it is fairly common in the US. Chicago is considered to be one of the best cities in America, and they can't build luxury condo towers fast enough to fill the demand. The fact that 2991 people were murdered in Chicago from 2000-2004 hasn't stopped people from spending millions to buy a new condo in the city. 594,266 people were murdered in America from 1976-2004, and there has been almost no public outrage. Detroit may average 400 murders per year, but Chicago averages 600 murders per year, and America averages 20,000 murders per year. The astounding amount of violent crime in America over the last 40 years has not only changed the way Americans live, it has also changed how we think. Prior to the 1960's, Americans were much like the people in other developed countries. If there was a rise in crime, the general public would stand up and demand a solution. In the span of one generation, Americans gave up the fight to stop crime, and started to just cope with it. The American public has now accepted rampant violent crime as a normal part of life in this country. The problem is so bad, American citizens don't even talk about possible solutions. The only talk about crime in America is how to avoid it. ---------- Detroit isn't that much different than most cities in America. If you are brave enough to buy a condo in Chicago, DC, Philly, New Orleans, Miami, LA, or St Louis, downtown Detroit is no big deal. If you are worried about the amount of crime in downtown Detroit, you should avoid almost every large city in America. | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 8894 Registered: 10-2003 |
I agree 100% that the CBD (and slowly the outlying downtown area) are having a rebirth that this city has not seen in decades. I find it fascinating that this much has been accomplished even this far. Hopefully it continues to grow and expand. Erikd, as you know downtown Detroit is relatively safe, it is the neighbourhoods that are (and are perceived to be) run amok. No, not all but for the vast majority of lower to middle income neighbourhoods, the decline continues. What other reason could there possibly be for such a decline to have happened? Racism to a point but what else? Economically speaking many cities lost industry to the 'burbs just as Detroit has but it did not affect them as much so why Detroit? I have to say the crime. If you have other observations please reply. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1838 Registered: 07-2004 |
The American public has not accepted anything. The black Amercian public mostly located in the inner cities has seemed to accept murder and violence as being tolerable_ but I don't buy that entirely most do care. I bring it up over and over because it is the best concrete example; the crime reduction focus in nyc has made Harlem a most desirable place with all kinds of bldg and renovation and activity.Crime is not completely gone but it has been reduced drastically. Here in Ann Arbor and in Livonia and Redford and places across the country and neighborhoods in Detroit crime is low and certainly not acceptable. As for Detroit being like any other city that is just denial. Detroit is unlike any other city in how crime has affected things. |
