 
Lowell (69.3.125.247 - 69.3.125.247)
| | Posted on Sunday, March 30, 2003 - 5:37 pm: |    |
St. Cyril Panorama... enjoy. |
Lowell
Board Administrator
Username: Lowell
Post Number: 2637
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.167.58.162
| | Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 12:27 am: | |
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Lowell (69.3.125.247 - 69.3.125.247)
| | Posted on Sunday, March 30, 2003 - 5:41 pm: | |
Oh yes, translation please for inscription over the altar. Anybody? |
gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Sunday, March 30, 2003 - 6:06 pm: | |
Lowell: an incredible panorama of the inside. Is it a recent one? You just can't help but have a bad feeling even if you are not of that faith or even religious when you see something like St.Cyril about to turn to rubble. Some things should be more permanent than that. And didn't I read somewhere that the Burroughs school across the street is one scheduled for closing? |
gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Sunday, March 30, 2003 - 6:18 pm: | |
Correction: 2 elementary schools are to close and relocate AT Burroughs, across from St.Cyril, so it isn't slated for closing. It is a nice looking building, but there sure are a lot of vacant lots in the neighborhood.
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Andrew Avery (64.31.6.233 - 64.31.6.233)
| | Posted on Sunday, March 30, 2003 - 8:12 pm: | |
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Andrew Avery (64.31.6.233 - 64.31.6.233)
| | Posted on Sunday, March 30, 2003 - 8:15 pm: | |
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Lowell (69.3.125.247 - 69.3.125.247)
| | Posted on Sunday, March 30, 2003 - 8:41 pm: | |
Nice pictures Andy; Kudos to you for being the one to bring St. Cyril to my attention. |
ex-Deeetroiter (24.30.96.64 - 24.30.96.64)
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 2:29 am: | |
gb, if you check the archives, there was a thread awhile back regarding some of the forumers memories of St Cyril's. Some interesting points.
Thank you Lowell for the great shot of the interior. There were many more parishes whose demise was not as spectacular. Perhaps it is nothing more than an incredibly ornate church in what was a very middle class neighborhood. I can only imagine how the pastor cajoled the money out of the parishoners.
The Church was always out of step with the parish. The neighborhood was a good working class neighborhood that never had rich boundaries. I don't think there is or was another Church in Detroit that had the pull to get a street named after the parish. And I seriously doubt that the street was originally named St. Cyril. A lot of pull. There was something that suggested power whenever you turned right from Van Dyke onto St Cyril. Wouldn't be the first or last time a pastor had some very grandiose ideas.
As a kid, I can remember the building being so very imposing. My cousin was married there in the late 50s. I was at the wedding. She graduated from the high school. Bitched about the nuns. St Cyril's area was a good starting point. Nice middle class community. Was a very safe area even in the late 60s.
The Archdiocese tried to give St Cyril's a second life. Good intentions. But a gift that needed a new copper roor. Very unfair. But in the immortal words of Jimmy Carter: "Life's not fair."
The only thing left is the final act. |
ex-Deeetroiter (24.30.96.64 - 24.30.96.64)
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 3:48 am: | |
What did the area look like? Since it appears to be part of what Lowell has described as an "urban prairie," I guess large portions of it are long gone.
The area going south toward Grand Boulevard was obviously older--the city was expanding northward. Most of the east/west streets were built prior to cars, around 1910-20. None of the houses had driveways and were built on 30 foot wide lots. Garages came later. You entered them through the alley. Very crowded feeling. Houses extended virtually to the sidewalk. Almost a row house feeling without the elegance of New York. Most were two family units. An identical upstairs to the downstairs.
Typically, a large parlor (living room). Two bedrooms that opened off this room. Kitchen to the rear. Bathroom off the kitchen. Rear steps open. Front steps with a door that belied a second unit. Most of the buildings were wooden. Some had added asphalt siding that was pressed to look like brick. Some people who had really updated had added aluminum siding by the 50s.
Once you hit the north/south streets closer to St Cyril's, the houses were built with driveways. Lots were wider. Houses were still built of wood, although a few were now being built with brick. There were a lot of rooming houses in the area. Into the 70s, you could buy a room for the night for a couple of bucks. They were clean. The area was predominately Polish as were almost all the parishioners of St Cyril's.
There was a lot of mixed zoning in the neighborhood. Duplexes next to single family residences next to rooming houses. Detroit still hadn't learned.
Since the area was there before prohibition, there tended to be bars in the middle of a block.
They were speakeasies during the 20s and then I believe they were all granted a type of amnesty and allowed to be legal. Very neighborhood feel to those bars. And when Sundays were dry in Detroit, the local bars could be counted on for a few shots if they knew you.
Trust me on this one: there wasn't one single architectural gem in the whole area. It was a solid working class neighborhood with cheap housing that wasn't built to last. |
Lowell (66.167.213.44 - 66.167.213.44)
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 12:28 pm: | |
Great post Ex-D. Here is a view of the 'prairie' from the 2nd floor rear. For perspective, the tallest building on the horizon is the church and spire of St. Florian's in Hamtramck. In the foreground you can see where the densely packed houses you describe once stood is nothing more than street, alley, street. The foreground street is Winfield, then Carrie, then Helen.
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(141.217.1.98 - 141.217.1.98)
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 1:23 pm: | |
They should start growing peas. Spring is upon us. |
gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 3:45 pm: | |
The front door is now unpadlocked so I gave in to temptation and had a look around inside. Water puddles on the floor, cold damp atmosphere, light streaming in through broken windows, birds startled by a human coming into their abode. But a few parts of the inside are still colorful.
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gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 3:46 pm: | |
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gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 3:47 pm: | |
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gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 3:49 pm: | |
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gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 3:50 pm: | |
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gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 3:51 pm: | |
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(141.217.1.98 - 141.217.1.98)
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 4:25 pm: | |
Nice pics, all. I was in there a few weeks ago, before the snow melted. It added a nice element. Alas I use a predigital medium (it's called film, ask grandma) and am scanner-free, so no sharing.
Wondering where AA got the rear/eastward looking shot posted above. Mayhaps from the roof is all I can guess. |
Kathleen (68.61.100.57 - 68.61.100.57)
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 4:42 pm: | |
Boy, you guys are adventuresome. My husband and I went over there a week ago to shoot a few pictures. We did notice that the padlock was off the door, but decided that our safety was above our curiosity!! Thanks Lowell, Andy, and GB for sharing your photos.
Anyone know the timetable for the actual demolition? If anyone happens to notice the demolition beginning, please post an alert. |
gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 4:46 pm: | |
That shot by AA has to be from pretty high up in the church looking down St.Cyril street and at the Burroughs middle school across the street. Andrew must enjoy climmbing; it sure enhanced his picture. |
(141.217.1.98 - 141.217.1.98)
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 4:47 pm: | |
Biggest danger was from slipping on ice on the floor or getting a parking ticket if you left your car on the wrong side of the street (although I doubt if the parking enforcement brownshirts spend much time in that neighborhood, as the CBD, New Center, and WSU are much more lucrative). The small school across the street had a security guard to keep an eye on the street, but there's very little foot traffic. |
brian no. 5 (141.217.97.205 - 141.217.97.205)
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 4:54 pm: | |
These are rather nice pictures. What kinds of cameras do you use? I am considering a camera purchase, but it couldn't be very expensive.
The aptly named prairie shot is my favorite on this thread. |
Andrew in Windsor (64.228.128.19 - 64.228.128.19)
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 5:04 pm: | |
Great pictures everyone!
Thanks. |
brian no. 5 (141.217.97.205 - 141.217.97.205)
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 5:10 pm: | |
Along the same feeling as the prairie shot are the aerial photos on Mapquest. Some of you may have a much better way to get aerial shots, but this one works. Amazing. It reminds me of post-war shots of Germany. Hundreds of homes missing. Hmm. |
gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 5:25 pm: | |
brian no.5: I am using a Nikon Coolpix 775, which is bottom of the line now, so to speak. It fits into a shirt pocket, uses a rechargeable battery (mine has been good for over 10,000 pictures, knock on wood) and with the help of Photoshop Elements can fix up even pictures that aren't very good at first glance. You can get a decent digital camera for much less than the 450 I paid 18 months ago for mine. Since I don't print my pictures---I just email them and store on my Mac to view myself I doubt if a camera with more than 3 megapixels is needed. I simply found that having a digital camera makes me more aware of things and allows me to shoot hundreds, no thousands, of pictures. Try doing that with a SLR camera! Go for it. |
DK (66.227.164.201 - 66.227.164.201)
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 7:50 pm: | |
The first group of interiors were taken back in 2000 when the bldg was still somewhat salvagable. The last group were taken last December. There is a definate change in the buildings condition.
http://www.forgottendetroit.com/stcyrils/photos.html |
(141.217.1.98 - 141.217.1.98)
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 8:03 pm: | |
Wasn't that building occupied by a Protestant denomination for some time after St. Cyril Parish left? Seems like I remember driving by a few years ago and seeing a sign attached over the front. I probably even have a photo of it somewhere.
Then again, could've been some bad acid. |
The Ghettoman (64.12.96.230 - 64.12.96.230)
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 8:44 pm: | |
The Lodge Park ghettohood was hit hard by years of racial xenophobicism, White flight, Black migration, drug dealers, crackheads, weirdos, mutants, common house fires, and demolitions to form a urban prarie.
The G.R.E.E.D. Corps. will soon find these ghettohoods, gentrificate it, and turn it into a " Nouveau Riche" housing. Keeping the low-income people out. |
abarnes (209.178.134.210 - 209.178.134.210)
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 11:31 pm: | |
how do you paste a photo in here, Lowell? |
Andrew Avery (155.139.68.10 - 155.139.68.10)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 12:22 am: | |
The elevated view looking towards the choir loft was shot through a broken window (the first window to the left of the altar in Lowell's panorama). The window is accessible from the roof.
The view of Burroughs Middle School was shot from the top of the south belltower. |
ex-Deeetroiter (24.30.96.64 - 24.30.96.64)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 2:32 am: | |
One bizarre detail that I remembered after seeing the "urban prairie" picture: Virtually every house on the north/south streets had a fence that went right to the sidewalk. Picket fencing? Hey we're talking Detroit--not Connecticut. Cyclone fencing. Never needed painting--or at least rarely.
If you look at the picture of the small story and a half house, imagine it with a large full two story wooden structure next door that nearly filled the lot. And another one next to that one. Then three single family residences. Then a duplex. You get the picture. That's what that area looked like. All with cyclone fences down to the sidewalk. And a gate. And well kept lawns. Maybe a religious statue of Mary.
One unusual attribute to the neighborhood, particularly the closer you get to Grand Blvd and Mt. Elliot: Dead end streets. I'm not totally sure, but I think a lot of the area was somewhat developed with housing when Packards went in. And Packards needed more room. There were a lot of houses that were torn down and a huge wall went up--even then they didn't have the nerve to put a factory right next door to residential housing. You could get a feel for what Detroit was really like. Not only could you hear metal being stamped, you could smell it.
The dead end streets were particularly bleak as there was this huge brick wall--at least 20 feet high at the end of the street. (Or maybe it just seemed that high to a kid). No such thing invented yet as a cul de sac. The houses went right up to the wall. Like the neighborhood was amputated. Try turning a car around on that one. Remember, no driveways--alley access only. Sometimes backing up the length of a city block was the only way out.
One of my favorites was a street that had a wall in the back of the entire block and then to the west that seemed to go north for blocks. Well, it had to start somewhere or the factory only bought up so much land.
One dead end street name: Aaron. Don't remember the rest. All the houses were the same tedious frame construction. Painting was almost worthless. They all ended up looking grey.
But it wasn't an unhappy neighborhood. Again, I didn't live there but my father worked for Packards and grew up in the St Cyril neighborhood before St Cyril's came in. Men walked to work at Packards and at the hundreds of small supportive factories that laced the area. And of course there was the inevitable neighborhood bar.
One way to tell if an older building might have been a bar or speakeasy: If the structure, especially a house, has an addition that goes right to the sidewalk in the front, particularly if looks added on, you can almost bet it was a "neighborhood bar." |
Lowell (66.167.213.44 - 66.167.213.44)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 2:36 am: | |
I took a picture through that hole too Andy; the urban prairie picture above is taken looking the other way from that hole which can be seen in the arch above the altar in gb's picture and in my panorama.
What can I say but that St. Cyril is one of the most moving of many breathtaking sights in the fabulous ruins of Detroit? It says so much with its forlorn beauty. |
julie (68.41.175.223 - 68.41.175.223)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 9:20 am: | |
Great pics, everyone! Thanks for posting them!  |
Hamtramck Steve (136.181.195.17 - 136.181.195.17)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 12:56 pm: | |
Slovak and Polish have enough in common, I think I've got the gist of the wording over the altar.
Near as I can flesh out it means something like
"God Himself points [or 'directs'] his holiness [or 'means of grace'] at [or 'to'] our altar."
Basically, it's a reminder to people that 1, they were in the physical presence of God and 2, the altar is the pathway to salvation.
Pretty frickin' ironic, huh? |
The Eternal wondering... (64.228.147.242 - 64.228.147.242)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 1:43 pm: | |
I have a question. Is it wrong to take something out of these buildings once it is going to be demolished? If you were to go there a week before they tear it down. Would that be a bad thing?
Some of those are just gorgeous. |
(141.217.1.98 - 141.217.1.98)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 1:54 pm: | |
Trust me on this, there isn't much left to take. Unless you have a need for a few tons of a faux marble column. Hope you have high ceilings.
Even the chandeliers are mangled. |
Motown (24.247.244.50 - 24.247.244.50)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 1:56 pm: | |
Yes, it's still looting unless you have express permission to remove items from the building. Just recently when DLS alumni went into to salvage things from the old school, they had to get written permission from the city (who owns it) to take anything.
That and stealing things from a church has to be against the bible in SOME way... |
The Eternal (64.228.147.242 - 64.228.147.242)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 2:20 pm: | |
Motown, What if they were going to demolish it anyway? As in they were going to break the ornamental fixtures and whatnot. How would that be looting? It would be saving something from that building.
I'm not suggesting going into a building that is closed off and NOT being demolished. But once the deal has been done and the cews are going to tear it down. It would be nice to get something from these buildings.
I wouldn't even be sure I would do something like that but is it wrong?
Your thoughts people... |
Doug W (64.3.232.18 - 64.3.232.18)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 2:23 pm: | |
I've read through both of these threads and haven't seen any background on why St. Cyril's is being torn down. Are there any plans to build something on the site? Or is it being torn down simply because it's already a crumbling ruin?
Also, an address would be helpful, although I guess I've figured out that it's around the Poletown area, on Van Dyke somewhere north of I-94. I'll have to drive up that way again... |
(141.217.1.98 - 141.217.1.98)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 2:35 pm: | |
Take Van Dyke and go north of Harper about 1/2 mile and turn left. You'll run right into it.
I think that the neighbors will be noticing a lot of activity there. Wonder what they'll suspect. |
Lowell (66.167.213.44 - 66.167.213.44)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 2:56 pm: | |
Doug W, ST. C. is directly across from the a school and there is a policy, not completely wrong headed IMO, to tear schitt down near schools.
My fear is that Lee Plaza, across from Northwestern HS, will be next to go. Masonry has fallen to the sidewalks there as a result of the Chicago Lion thieves predations. The sidewalk is now cordoned off.
It also appears that the rest of the surrounding prairie will be cleared before long and a sizeable piece of land will be available for Ghettoman's GREED corpse developments.
Thanks for the translation Ham Steve! |
Hamtramck Steve (136.181.195.17 - 136.181.195.17)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 2:56 pm: | |
That area has been targeted for development as an industrial park. The first phase runs from Van Dyke to Mt. Eliott. Future expansion might carry over into the area between Mt. Elliott and Conant. |
gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 3:56 pm: | |
Steve: sort of like the Motor City Industrial Park thing that is advertized on the overpass above Grand Blvd. at Packard? Not much in the way of progress there. Hope they do better around St.Cyril; what industry wants to be there? |
solarflare (63.69.106.5 - 63.69.106.5)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 4:19 pm: | |
Great pictures everyone, thanks a ton for sharing them. |
Hamtramck Steve (136.181.195.17 - 136.181.195.17)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 4:26 pm: | |
I suspect the Van Dyke Industrial Park might do a tad better than the "Motor City," because they're clearing the land, which will allow businesses to construct whatever type of facility they need. At the Packard plant, they're limited to the floorplates of the existing building. |
gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 4:32 pm: | |
Good point, Steve. I have heard that the Packard bldg. has to stay there at least at present because it's an historic site (besides being highly polluted; I read that there are 600,000 auto tires stashed away somewhere in there). Like you say, the land around St.Cyril is pretty clear, nothing much more to tear down. |
X-DETROITER. (205.173.33.2 - 205.173.33.2)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 4:54 pm: | |
IT'S a crying shame.my younger suburban cousins will never know a detroit in it's prime.iv'e been in fla since i moved with my parent's in 1972 from warren,you know the place "where old poles go to die." no p.c. pun intended.the city kinda imploded when i left.i want to thank lowell for documenting all of the landmarks and places for us for the past five years...the forums kinda wild in here and pepole go kinda p.c. on ya..but y'all are real good folks. thank's very much and see y'all.and like they say in poletown.POLKATILLUPUKE..J.anthony.jax fl. |
aeb (205.188.208.135 - 205.188.208.135)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 5:39 pm: | |
I just don't get why we Americans let our history die......
I have lived out of the country for too long.
HamSteve - do you speak Polish or read it only? |
abarnes (209.178.134.133 - 209.178.134.133)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 5:51 pm: | |
There is nothing wrong with scavenging bits of a building that is going to be torn down. I rehabbed an old house using scavanged pieces of old houses that were to be torn down. I don't see how it is moral to leave useful items to be dumped into a landfill. Just don't make a mess and be safe! If there is a chance that the building will be saved, or if it is sealed and posted with no tresspassing signs, then you should not scavange. (i.e. the lions)
note:St. Cyril is being torn down for the industrial park. |
aeb (205.188.208.135 - 205.188.208.135)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 6:37 pm: | |
I asked my husband (native Polish speaker) what he thinks the text is.
Another possible translation...
'we are bending (kneeling) before your (God) highness' |
Cris (68.62.83.172 - 68.62.83.172)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 7:18 pm: | |
Ex-Deetroiter, thank you so much for your memories of that neighborhood... I really enjoyed reading it. So hard to believe there was so much there at one time and now it is mostly gone! |
The Eternal (64.228.128.18 - 64.228.128.18)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 10:18 pm: | |
abarnes. Thats what I think as well. Thanks for the reply. |
Lowell (66.167.213.44 - 66.167.213.44)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 11:41 pm: | |
"We are kneeling before Your Highness" AEB's hubby.
"God Himself points his holiness at our altar." Ham Steve
Polish - Slovakian? Consensus anybody?
I've met both translators and gotta say AEB's hubby would seem to have the inside track... Which is it? |
Lowell (66.167.213.44 - 66.167.213.44)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 11:56 pm: | |
On thing that really struck me about the St. Cyril is its shell interior. It is a molded, now moldy, plaster shell with columns that were a fairly convincing faux red marble. I can evision the builders of Vegas coming there to steal ideas. This is not cut stone and fresco and, in spite of its grandiosity, it was a cheap solution, so the parishioners may not have been too dearly milked.
The most commanding feature is its soaring arches and large airy open space. It makes up for all the phoney appointments. I am really curious to see the structure of those arches. Will it be steel or wood? I am guessing the former.
I also don't recall a setup like this where the school is wrapped around the church with the upper school corridors leading into the church balcony. |
(141.217.1.98 - 141.217.1.98)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2003 - 12:02 am: | |
You catholic, Lowell? That setup probably made it easy to herd the kids into church every morning for the daily indoctrination.
If merembers correctly, the columns in question had a steel mesh framework. Somebody had cracked one open to find out. They'd look pretty swank in my place...until they went crashing through the floor into my downstairs neighbor's living room. |
ex-Deeetroiter (24.30.96.64 - 24.30.96.64)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2003 - 12:45 am: | |
Lowell, St Cyril's is very unique in that there was a very limited amount of land to work with. When looking for solutions, sometimes there are no answers other than practicality. However, since I believe that the picture of the one building that was torn down was the convent, it is possible that what eventually became a school might have served as a convent for the nuns until the real convent was built. And I agree that I also know of no other floor plan even remotely similar.
It might have come from something as inocuous as the nun who played the organ said something to the pastor when she saw the plans, as wouldn't it be nice on Christmas to have the little children filing into the choir like angels? Being the product of a Catholic education, if there is such a thing, nothing would surprise me.
But I'm more inclined to think it was nothing more than an ambitious building plan with very little land to work with.
"We are kneeling before your Highness" sounds very Polish/Catholic. There isn't a snowball's chance...maybe I should change the metaphor.....of the language being anything other than Polish. |
ex-Deeetroiter (24.30.96.64 - 24.30.96.64)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2003 - 1:17 am: | |
But the overall question remains, why are we so intrigued by the death of St Cyril's? Believe me, far better churches were torn down than this one.
What is unique is the openess of the death of this particular church. Usually, in fact always, the Archdiocese is very sensitive to the destruction of a church. They realize that the monies that built that church came from the parishioners. And when a lot of churches came down in the 70s and 80s, my relatives had more than a few choice comments. As a result, the deconstruction of a church is always very fast and quiet.
And I understand that. The Archdiocese's business is religion. Parishes come and go. Things change.
But the Archdiocese tried something new with St Cyril's. They "sold" it to a small non-Catholic congregation. And I'm sure they investigated the buyer and deemed it credit worthy etc. And then they walked away. But things went wrong. And the next thing you know there's old St Cyril's rotting away. Doors open. Smashed by vandals. And it doesn't take much more imagination of vacant buildings to guess what else might have taken place there.
It is shameful and disgusting. These parishioners did without to build that parish. My relatives contributed to and built that Church. Whether the Archdiocese of Detroit is the title holder of record or not, they owe it to the memory of the parishioners of St Cyril's to give it an honorable demise. |
C= (208.39.170.79 - 208.39.170.79)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2003 - 9:33 am: | |
Man, ex-Deeetroiter brought a good point. Who knows what has taken place there. Raves, Devil Worships, prositution and drug use may have been done in this former church. Its a shame! I wonder how much Archdioceses got for the church. It must have been a large sum. |
Hamtramck Steve (136.181.195.17 - 136.181.195.17)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2003 - 10:24 am: | |
Quite a few of the parishes closed in 1989 by the Archdiocese were sold to other denominations.
As for the translation, until we find somebody who can read Slovakian, we may never know. (That's my quiet way of saying I could be wrong.) For that matter, we may be off-base as to the language. It could be Slovakian or Slovenian. I know for certain it's not Polish, because some of the letters in the church aren't in the Polish alphabet. |
Lowell (68.164.106.106 - 68.164.106.106)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2003 - 12:06 pm: | |
ex-D, I think the fascination with St. Cyril's, mine certainly, is that it is not simply the destruction of the church and its buildings. Look around the neighborhood. It is the destruction of an entire parish, houses, bars, corner stores, all gone. Only memory remains of what was, up to about 30 years ago, a densely packed working class neighborhood. Erased as if it never existed! Now it's spiritual heart and most prominent landmark pathetically awaits vanishment. |
gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2003 - 5:51 pm: | |
Some of the mysteries of old St.Cyril---which, it appears, generates a lot of sympathy and nostalgia among many---continue, and probably will until the day that someone reports, "It's gone!". I am really grateful to ex-Deetroiter especially, and Lowell and others who have made such trenchant comments. I certainly have learned a lot. It shows what a forum can be: enlightening, thoughtful, challenging. I think the idea that it isn't just a church, a building in a neighborhood, that is going down, but that in this case it seems to represent the end of a whole parish with everything that went with it that we are now witness to. Whether one is religious or not, and I happen not to be, it is a touching and moving spectacle when one stops to think of the sacrifices, the hardships, the toil, that went into something like St.Cyril's (and many others) and to reflect on what might have been under other circumstances. |
ex-Deeetroiter (24.30.96.64 - 24.30.96.64)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2003 - 1:49 am: | |
Lowell, of course you're right. And it's something I never thought of. It's more than the demise of a building. It's the death of a neighborhood that never really had a shot for gentrification. And now we're all watching the destruction of the only landmark that proved it ever existed.
If I had been able to look into the future as a kid, there is no possible way that I could have predicted what would happen to this area. I've seen buildings come and go, but the wholesale destruction and loss of a neighborhood boggles the mind. It's not just a house missing here or there. Or a movie theater that burned down. I see the pictures and I still don't believe it.
gb, it is my pleasure to relive and put to use my memories and some of the stories that I took the time to ask of Detroiters who are long gone. This thread is a gem and I'm glad to be part of it.
Now Lowell, about the construction of St. Cyril's. You don't know how glad I was to read that there was a lot of cheap construction used in the building of St. Cyril's. At least the parishioners only sprung for a lot of faux items and facades.
But I'm gonna go out on a limb here. I'll bet that the dome uses wooden construction. The craftsmen who built these Churches were skilled in old world methods of construction. This wasn't a barn raising by any stretch of the imagination where the neighbors chipped in after work. Licensed contractors did the work. However, there were only so many firms capable of doing the work. And very often old world workers were brought over due to the lack of skilled workers in a certain field. Just a ruse for getting old cousin Stosh into this country.
While steel surely was used in plant construction, schools etc., I'll bet Churches at this time still used old world style construction methods. And it wouldn't be unheard of for the Pastor to get a generous building pledge if he happened to need a certain type of worker that could be found in the old country. Wooden frames under the dome and the arches is my guess.
We'll soon know. And I'm looking forward to seeing the final act. |
gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2003 - 11:39 am: | |
ex-Deetroiter: your mention of one of those short dead-end streets---Aaron---made me curious so I checked it out. It was not as close to St. Cyril as I thought it might be. It's just off E.Forest a couple of blocks from Mt.Elliott and here is what it looks like today. It is definitely a one block long street, if that.
 |
gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Friday, April 04, 2003 - 6:28 pm: | |
A big steamshovel is now sitting on a pile of rubble where the old auxillary building used to be; in other words, it is getting closer to the church itself. |
Ted Smith (68.41.175.223 - 68.41.175.223)
| | Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2003 - 5:17 pm: | |
try again...
there appeared to be some riff-raff lurking about...
 |
baw (155.139.50.14 - 155.139.50.14)
| | Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2003 - 5:23 pm: | |
Why is the midget's face obscured? |
procrastinating velma (68.41.175.223 - 68.41.175.223)
| | Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2003 - 5:28 pm: | |
more....
 |
gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2003 - 8:40 pm: | |
Pretty eerie there today as the ice above melted and dripped water through holes and cracks in the roof down to the floor. When the light is right you get some very interesting views of the color that still remains. Here is what the end of one of those pink faux marble columns looks like, maybe a couple of inches thick, reinforced by some sort of wire mesh.
 |
velma (68.41.175.223 - 68.41.175.223)
| | Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2003 - 9:55 pm: | |
To anyone interested in checking out this site, I encountered used hypodermic(sp?) needles while sneaking around so BE CAREFUL! |
gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Monday, April 07, 2003 - 12:00 am: | |
And this material looks less faux and more like the real stuff, marble, that is.
 |
Andrew Avery (64.31.6.223 - 64.31.6.223)
| | Posted on Monday, April 07, 2003 - 12:14 am: | |
The last time I was inside (about two weeks ago), that gaping hole was covered by the same red stone as the rest of the altar... |
aeb (205.188.208.135 - 205.188.208.135)
| | Posted on Monday, April 07, 2003 - 12:27 am: | |
I have to say that this kind of loss of history is very, very sad. |
Barf {sycloneman} (68.62.78.225 - 68.62.78.225)
| | Posted on Monday, April 07, 2003 - 3:53 am: | |
Click here for a link to a Mapquest areial of the church. |
Barf (68.62.78.225 - 68.62.78.225)
| | Posted on Monday, April 07, 2003 - 3:56 am: | |
er...try this one instead..just zoom in!
Click Here! |
(141.217.1.98 - 141.217.1.98)
| | Posted on Monday, April 07, 2003 - 4:29 am: | |
baw, midget is not exactly a pc word. The vertically challenged find it to be denigrating.
Anyway, it looks more like a yard gnome or a troll in that picture. I'll get back to you on this after I consult my Field Guide to Mystical Creatures. |
velma (68.41.175.223 - 68.41.175.223)
| | Posted on Monday, April 07, 2003 - 9:27 am: | |
bite me! |
Hamtramck Steve (136.181.195.17 - 136.181.195.17)
| | Posted on Monday, April 07, 2003 - 9:45 am: | |
The pinkish "marble" on the side altar is also faux.
aeb, I've lost most of my ability to coherently speak Polish. I'm left having to repeatedly ask people to slow down and repeat themselves, especially native speakers. The only Polish I'm fluent in anymore would get my faced slapped in Warsaw, which is funny, since this is the first Polish I learned.
Reading is also becoming more difficult, with having to constantly refer to dictionaries and such. Polish in my family was used as the primary means of gossiping about the neighbors and discussing things not meant for children to hear/understand. After my grandma died suddenly a decade ago, we all pretty much stopped using Polish because it was a constant reminder she wasn't here anymore. |
(141.217.1.98 - 141.217.1.98)
| | Posted on Monday, April 07, 2003 - 2:09 pm: | |
Oh, grow up, Velma!!! (If that's really your name.)
I'm not biting anybody. I'm looking for a meal, not a snack. Besides, leprechauns are soooo high in sodium.
...and stop calling me Shaggy! |
GOAT (64.228.133.159 - 64.228.133.159)
| | Posted on Monday, April 07, 2003 - 3:06 pm: | |
WOW! What a desolate place. that is incredible. It looks like its the start of a new subdivision on the outskirts of any other city. Incredible! |
Barf-pile (68.62.78.225 - 68.62.78.225)
| | Posted on Monday, April 07, 2003 - 5:21 pm: | |
Thinking about heading down there today...I wanna see it first hand! |
aeb (205.188.208.135 - 205.188.208.135)
| | Posted on Monday, April 07, 2003 - 11:37 pm: | |
More on the translation... here is an on-line Czech - English dictionary. http://slovnik.seznam.cz/sl.fcgi
The problem with this phrase is that because it is religious the words have different meanings than just the basic translation. KLlanjame sa (the sa I take to be reflexive) means either worship or adore (among other translations). Sviatosti oltarnej when taken together seems to mean communion or eucharist or mystery... and vence means evermore.... so maybe Adore the holy eucharist or
Worhship the holy eucharist. Any catholic priests of Czech decent around. Of course this is not current language, but since it is religious. Maybe an email to the archdiocese.
I still can't believe these beautiful historic churches are left to disappear by the Church.... |
lilacgirl (141.209.40.221 - 141.209.40.221)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2003 - 2:05 am: | |
Its a shame, my mom and dad got married there in 1981. |
Hamtramck Steve (136.181.195.17 - 136.181.195.17)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2003 - 10:24 am: | |
In one of the on-line slovak translators I checked out, the first word could be translated as "word." "Sa" means "himself, herself, itself" depending on which word it refers to.
The one word I had great trouble pinning down is "vecne," because I couldn't insert the thingie over the e.
We really need somebody to schlep over to St. Cyril's in Sterling Hts and ask one of the priests. |
(141.217.1.98 - 141.217.1.98)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2003 - 1:45 pm: | |
Word! I'm down with that, my Yiddish speaking brother! |
Ted Smith (136.2.1.153 - 136.2.1.153)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 1:24 pm: | |
One from Velma...
 |
BetsieL (199.4.18.2 - 199.4.18.2)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 12:33 pm: | |
Velma, can you email me? I want to ask about one of your photos.
pantone_367 @ hotmail.com
Thanks! |
gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 2:52 pm: | |
I drove out to St.Cyril and Methodius church on Ryan Rd. just north of 18 mile today. A lovely church built in 1988, apparently by former parishioners of the old St.Cyril. It has a grotto out in back built by the former priest who retired to Slovakia, and stations of the cross all around the parking lot, built by the new priest. The person behind moving and forming a new church was the former priest who convinced the parishioners that "they had to move or else". He retired in 1998 and moved back to Slovakia. The new priest, Father Ben, as they call him, is a young Slovak who is still under the direction of the archdiocese in his home country, and seems extremely popular with his new flock, being both an activist (ie, in working with the young people) but at the same time being very traditional in a religious sense. He was not available since he had gone to meet the president of Slovakia who is visiting the Detroit area. So I joined a group of older women in the seniors' meeting place and learned more about the old parish. Several of them had grown up there, gone to school there, been married there, kids baptised there etc. They were a fountain of information about the neighborhood, the houses, the people, the inside of the church etc. An altogether fascinating and fortuitous morning for me. I met a former nun/teacher there who had also been the principal of the school. One very thoughtful woman, Ann Venglar, was intimately connected to the old church and now the new one. She took me all around the church, explaining that all the statues and stations of the cross were from the old church (the altar was the one that they recovered from the old convent) or other old churches that had "gone down", explained that when the new church came into being there were 120 members from old St.Cyril, and now there are over 600 members including many of the originals---Slovaks---and many non-Slovaks, the majority now. From what I heard I gather that the old traditional type of church is what they have here. They seem to prefer the old way, so to speak. There was much discussion about how and why the old neighborhood had changed so much. I heard about the politics and finances of how the church was sold, then reclaimed by the archdiocese, etc. I got several interpretations of the words above the altar which seemed to boil down to something like "we bow before the eternal holiness of the altar" but their exact meaning when looked at from a religious rather than just literal standpoint was something I didn't get a good feeling for. A return visit may be in order since they were so friendly---and liked to reminisce about the old place. I should have had a tape recorder with me but hadn't expected this sort of windfall. One lady said she had gone to St.Thomas (now gone) on Grinell, or maybe it was Miller, and they had REAL marble columns there. It was agreed that St.Cyril had fake marble except for small columns near the altar. Those things that now look like fireplaces with marble-like material around them were side-altars. At one time the ceiling was more highly decorated but then got redecorated with the blue paint, which the informant thought was not so good. I'd love to hear more about the school, the students, the classes, the neighborhood itself, their parents and the jobs they had from these wonderfully friendly people. Several who had grown up there spoke about how they would walk up and down VanDyke in the evening, all the nice stores there, how they loved going to Chene st. to the markets---"it was just like the eastern market, every day", and things like that. |
gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 2:52 pm: | |
cont'd:
I asked a couple of them about the old Jewish cemetery at St.Cyril and Van Dyke and they said they had always wondered but didn't know much about it; they could recall no nearby synagogue. Some were horrified to think that the old buildings were being demolished or will be. But as Ms. Venglar said, "we have wonderful memories from there, and are building new ones here." I plan to call Father Ben and get his interpretation about those above-the-altar words. |
baw (155.139.68.10 - 155.139.68.10)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 4:14 pm: | |
"...stations of the cross all around the parking lot,...". That's great. I'll just hang my rosary on the rearview mirror and make the rounds in my Buick. LOL! |
gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 4:31 pm: | |
It's a very large lot, with a pathway around it where the stations are located. Not are hokey as it may sound (I speak from no experience as a Catholic), depending on your religious proclivities. |
Lowell (69.3.252.168 - 69.3.252.168)
| | Posted on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 10:47 am: | |
Great stuff, gb. So did you get the translation? LOL at the stations of the cross in the parking lot too, baw. Just what suburbia needs, if you can't find a parking place close enough to the entrance drive around and do the stations until one opens up or do them and skip church. That is worth a trip out there just to photo that.
BTW, gb I ran into a friend of yours, Dr. John Hop... [won't attempt the Finnish spelling] who lives near me, a really nice guy. |
ex-Deeetroiter (24.30.96.64 - 24.30.96.64)
| | Posted on Saturday, April 12, 2003 - 3:57 am: | |
What, no pictures of New St. Cyril's? Just what did the parishioners trade up to? And boy, does that story about the priest ring true--where he gives an ultimatum--move or else. Very old world style Catholicism. I can still remember one iron fisted Pastor saying from the pulpit on Christmas that he really didn't want to have a white Christmas. He wanted a green one. Took a second to figure that one out.
I didn't realize that the hastening of the area's demise was assisted by the relocating of the Church. I thought it was the other way around. Interesting.
The Archdiocese learned a lot from the construction of parishes in Detroit and their deconstruction. St. Albertus vs Sweetest Heart is a good example. One church two blocks from another? What were they thinking? And I had forgotten how close St Thomas was to St Cyril's.
With possibly the exception of St Clement's on Van Dyke, which is one of my favorite churches of all times--classic 60s, the architecture of most new suburban Catholic churches have the look of buildings that can be reused. Like if the number of parishioners suddenly drops, this time they're ready. The building can be sold for a bowling alley.
The one exception: Our Lady of Czochestowa (sp?). But getting people to contribute money for building became a lot harder with the Detroit closures. The kinfolk had plenty to say on that subject and I'm sure they weren't alone.
One thing came to mind. I guess St Cyril's is one of the few parishes to move to the suburbs. And take their parishioners with them. What old St Cyril's brought to the equation was an incredible sense of community. This feeling was not unique and is one of those unmeasurables about the past. There was a much greater sense of community instilled into all of Detroit.
To this day, if I ask someone what parish they belonged to, it says so much more than just the locale. Usually only works with the old Detroit parishes though. Hard to be committed to a bowling alley.
Hey gb, where's some more old school pictures? I love 'em. If you get a chance--Pershing? |
gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Saturday, April 12, 2003 - 10:49 pm: | |
I need to get some new ones of Pershing but here's one when the sun was shining on it.
 |
Arnie (165.121.212.221 - 165.121.212.221)
| | Posted on Saturday, April 12, 2003 - 11:30 pm: | |
The words above the altar are Slovak which translates to "Let Us Adore the Blessed Sacrament Forever." |
gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Monday, April 14, 2003 - 2:26 pm: | |
I had a chance to speak with Father Ben at St.Cyril today and his interpretation is as given by Arnie: "Let Us Adore the Most Holy (or Blessed) Sacrament Forever." |
MaryEllen32 (68.40.34.203 - 68.40.34.203)
| | Posted on Monday, April 14, 2003 - 5:28 pm: | |
ex-deetroiter,
Fr.Kolasinki (sp?) was a pastor at St.Albertus and was removed from the parish. The people who followed Fr. Kolasinki(sp?) built Sweetest Heart of Mary,which was built without Archdiocesean approval and the Archdiocese then ordered St.Josaphat to be built. |
ex-Deeetroiter (24.30.96.64 - 24.30.96.64)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 2:49 am: | |
Well, I sure would have bet the farm on the inscription over the altar being Polish. Oh well.
I'm more intrigued about the building of Sweetest Heart. A priest removed? Theological difference? Or are all three churches Roman Catholic? Or were they? I can't quite imagine a Church being built without Archdiocesan approval. Somewhere along the line they would have to get involved, if nothing more than the consecration, relics and assignment of religious personnel.
There was (is?)a Polish Catholic National Church that was not affiliated with the Roman Catholic Church but I don't know anything about it. Is this part of it? |
Hamtramck Steve (136.181.195.17 - 136.181.195.17)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 9:33 am: | |
The Polish National Church still exists in name, but it's been in full communion with Rome since the early to mid-20th century.
The only PNC I know of in the Detroit area is in Hamtramck. |
gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 3:39 pm: | |
Here's a picture of the new St.Cyril and Methodius Church at 18 mile and Ryan in Sterling Heights. Modern, functional, not what you'd call inspiring architecture. Today the entire lawn was covered with hundreds of white crosses. The stations of the cross---around a huge parking lot---are well done with a pleasant walkway, stone benches, and lots of trees which probably make the walk nicer when they are in leaf. Sitting on a bench you are not aware of a parking lot since you're looking away from it. The grotto, given by the former priest, is---well, a grotto. The entrance to the church is very simple, functional, plain, and at ground level; hardly something to compare with what must have been the magnificent entrance at the old church in its prime.
 |
gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 3:41 pm: | |
And the stations of the cross:
 |
gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 3:45 pm: | |
The history of all the religious political infighting and machinations at the time of the founding of the Sweetest Heart of Mary Church can be found at this link:
http://www.sweetestheartofmary.org/syn.htm |
Hamtramck Steve (136.181.195.17 - 136.181.195.17)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 4:04 pm: | |
Just a note on the design of churches. I've read quite a few comments about how modern churches can easily be converted to a "bowling alley" or other uses.
The Church has hundreds of pages of regulations that detail what is acceptable for the design of churches and what can not be done. There is more flexibility today regarding the materials used than in the past, and the dimensions are not controlled as they used to be hundreds/thousands of years ago, but it's not possible to build just anything and call it a Catholic Church. |
jim (198.109.32.13 - 198.109.32.13)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 4:17 pm: | |
That's great, but the new St. Cyril is ugly. The windows remind me of prison windows, maybe that is the point. But it should meld right into a tan or very light orange neighborhood of garages with attached housing.
Maybe this is where the Ilitch's became inspired for a landscaped parking lot. |
ex-Deeetroiter (24.30.96.64 - 24.30.96.64)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 2:15 am: | |
gb, fascinating material about the formation of Sweetest Heart. It explains a lot and glosses over some information--but again, I had no idea about any of it. It also explains some of the incredible devotion that my elementary school nuns had to Sweetest Heart. There was always what seemed an irrational push towards Sweetest Heart. Not to any other parish or school. The oder of nuns were derogatorily called "Polish Joes." I can't help but wonder if some of that devotion was a remnant of the founding.
And your one word description hits the mark: Uninspiring. And you're absolutely correct in what was a wonderful entrance to old St Cyril's.
Since it was on a fairly busy street--and was a great short cut--posed wedding pictures on the Church steps could be fun. I can remember even talking my mom into honking the horn and me waving as we drove past the wedding party posed in front of the Church. Total strangers. And we weren't the only ones. A bit of fun. |
gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 5:38 pm: | |
I was there again today for more pictures and heard voices, including a woman's, in the basement. Went down there and one of the men said he had grown up right across from the church, went to school there and had run a mortuary across the street as well. They were going through the very dark basement rooms with a big flashlight. First time I've run into anyone there. Maybe one of you can answer a question about some of the decorations in the church for me. Why is there a panel that looks like a lot of gilt fleur-de-lis? I always associate them with France, not Slovakia.  |
gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 5:46 pm: | |
Sorry about that, got mixed up but I meant to ask about this decoration as well. It is up near the front in a small sideroom about the size of a closet---maybe some sort of side altar?---and looks like 2 birds, partridges, chickens??? or maybe pheasants facing each other. Anyone know the story on this? And here is the picture that should go with the previous message about fleur di lis.
 |
gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 6:00 pm: | |
I was there again today for more pictures and heard voices, including a woman's, in the basement. Went down there and one of the men said he had grown up right across from the church, went to school there and had run a mortuary across the street as well. They were going through the very dark basement rooms with a big flashlight. First time I've run into anyone there. Maybe one of you can answer a question about some of the decorations in the church for me. Why is there a panel that looks like a lot of gilt fleur-de-lis? I always associate them with France, not Slovakia. |
ex-Deeetroiter (24.30.96.64 - 24.30.96.64)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 1:38 am: | |
The fleur-de-lys, while associated with France, particularly the French Kings and more specifically Joan of Arc, is not the exclusive right of the French.
While I sure don't know specifics of Slovakia, the lily is the special emblem of the Virgin Mary in Roman Catholicism. If this design were on a side altar, or behind a statue at a side altar, it is almost inevitable that one of the side altars would have been consecrated to Mary. Thus the design and the blue color would have been consistent with the Marian theme.
The fleur-de-lys has a lot of other symbolism. Since it has 3 divisions, it has been used to represent the Holy Trinity. And military units, including divisions of the United States Army, have used the symbol's resemblance to a spearhead to identify martial power and strength.
I don't recall any funeral homes across the street from St Cyril's. Doesn't mean it wasn't there though. I think I recall large funerals at St Cyril's -- not attending one-- but rather the congestion of one. The Church's proximity to Van Dyke meant that when they were lining up the funeral procession after the religious service, the cars spilled over onto Van Dyke, especially with a popular parishioner.
Since there were bus stops on Van Dyke and I seem to recall right in front of St Cyril's, you can imagine the congestion. And I think there were also railroad tracks crossing Van Dyke just before you got to the St Cyril turn off. Talk about a traffic jam. And there were no parking lots to St Cyril's. The object was to walk to Sunday Mass.
While St Cyril's is very powerful in its death throes, its impact when it was alive was stunning. I cannot recall what was on the west side of the street. And I have been down that street thousands of times. The eye always glanced at the Church even when travelling north. It was always lit, not always from within, but rather with spotlights. The massive stone building (alright, concrete) was always there and highly visible.
Now about those chickens........... |
ex-Deeetroiter (24.30.96.64 - 24.30.96.64)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 1:54 am: | |
whoops--should've proofed. Last paragraph: St Cyril's is on the west side of the street. Don't recall what was on the east side of the street. |
The Aram (68.41.161.129 - 68.41.161.129)
| | Posted on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 1:32 am: | |
I've been wondering if anyone has any pictures of St. Cyril's when it was still a functioning church. I'd like something to compare it to. Interior or exterior. |
lilacgirl (141.209.40.151 - 141.209.40.151)
| | Posted on Friday, April 25, 2003 - 2:00 am: | |
I have some from my mom and dad's wedding at home in GP. I will see if there are any of just the church. |
gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 5:27 pm: | |
There are now huge piles of dirt and clay piled up behind the church, but no other obvious evidence of "progress". Someone on another thread mentioned all the tires and junk around the church; much of it has been there for months. All along St.Cyril street I saw a tire here, several there, and by the church a real dumping ground, causing me to wonder whether there isn't a better way to encourage people to dispose of old tires. Why do they just dump them someplace in the neighborhood, probably after dark? It seems to be a problem throughout the country.
 |
tyrone (24.190.0.219 - 24.190.0.219)
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 5:37 pm: | |
Wow the pics were wonderful. When I lived in Detroit and I was more adventurous I used to frequent abandoned buildings. Hudsons, The Train Station, some houses, and various theaters such as the Riviera, The Tuller Hotel...
I have some nice elevator plates and light fixtures from Hudsons, and some pewabic tiles from my exploits. |
The Aram (68.41.161.129 - 68.41.161.129)
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 5:49 pm: | |
Nice job, Tyrone... Glad you're proud of your exploits in looting...
Yes, when I went to St. Cyril's last week, I pulled into the parking lot next to the church where the tires are, and due to the junk, determined I should probably park across the street... It's terrible. Right behind that big stack of tires is a very interesting mural of hands praying left over from the ?Baptist? congregation that was there last.
Still looking for pictures of the way it was before it was abandoned. |
tyrone (24.190.0.219 - 24.190.0.219)
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 5:56 pm: | |
Did I say proud? I don't see the word proud anywhere in my post. I simply stated the truth without hiding it and riding some high horse of morality. I took some things a long time ago when I was young and foolish enough to trespass on abandoned property. Anything I took was from buildings that are now long gone, and sorry sporto but I don't see anything wrong with that. |
The Aram (68.41.161.129 - 68.41.161.129)
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 5:59 pm: | |
OK, that I can understand. Bet they look nice. I thought they had sold off the elevator plates from Hudsons when they closed the place. They did sell everything that wasn't nailed down. And some stuff that was. |
tyrone (24.190.0.219 - 24.190.0.219)
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 6:00 pm: | |
I must be spirtually bankrupt huh Aram? Go to the Antique place on I-75 and Grand River...they're really the spirtually bankrupt ones...they steal stuff out of buildings that are slated for renovations....so get your priorities straight Mr.Eliot Ness. |
tyrone (24.190.0.219 - 24.190.0.219)
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 6:01 pm: | |
oops sorry if i sounded mean...I'm not Aram xo |
The Aram (68.41.161.129 - 68.41.161.129)
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 6:03 pm: | |
What kind of stuff does this place have? Sounds interesting...
Hey, no problem. It's all good! |
tyrone (24.190.0.219 - 24.190.0.219)
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 6:05 pm: | |
Aram: No they didn't sell off the elevator plates even though they were solid brass..i use one for the light switch in my house! I'm glad I took them...I used the rest of them as birthday presents and house warming gifts to friends who live in Detroit. So now we all have a little piece of Hudsons even though it was imploded |
The Aram (68.41.161.129 - 68.41.161.129)
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 6:19 pm: | |
Tyrone-
Light switch cover? Yeah! That kicks ass! Have you read that book about the history of Hudson's where they talk about the blowaway sale at the end? Some ex-Detroiter from Arizona came and bought up the entire jewelary department furniture and display cases for his jewelary store in Arizona. He had to build onto his store to fit it all in. Now that I think about it, just about the only things they didn't sell were the drinking fountains and the elevator plates. |
gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 2:59 pm: | |
Someone mentioned a picture of the "hands" on the outside of the church. Here is what you would see. There is what looks like a small wooden addition on the side of the building that would face the rectory and what was the convent. It must go back to when the church was renamed the Word of Truth Temple of Jesus Christ and probably had a pastor by the name of Thomas Butler from some of the articles I and others have photographed inside the church. I found a picture in the Detroit Pix website showing a huge banner on front with the name of the new church. In that picture all 4 trees in front were upright; now the second from the right is bent down touching the ground.
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gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 1:13 pm: | |
Did my usual drive by today and the church is about half demolished; last week it still stood. The west wall is standing and you now can see the last vestige of one of the religious scenes out in the open. A sad sight to see what has happened. I'll post some pictures later. |
gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 2:36 pm: | |
As it now looks approaching on Kern st.
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gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 2:38 pm: | |
Another view.
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gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 2:44 pm: | |
Last stand of the west wall, the one on the left as you enter the church. It had one of the few remaining bits of religious art these past months or years.
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gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 2:46 pm: | |
The right (east) side of the church, now exposed. The stop sign says it all.
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gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 2:59 pm: | |
Over the past months I've been in that church innumerable times to look at, see, and photograph it and its remains. Having visited with some former parishioners who grew up at St.Cyril and having read comments from several on the Forum about the church, the parish, and the neighborhood I have a personal feeling about it that I wouldn't have had otherwise. There's something about stepping inside an abandoned and soon-to-be-demolished church that tugs a bit at one's heartstrings, whatever one's religious proclivities are. I'm glad I had the opportunity to see it and hear a bit about it from those who knew it first hand. |
AIW (64.228.134.140 - 64.228.134.140)
| | Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 4:18 pm: | |
GB,
I couldn't agree with you more. I was just there the other week. I am glad I had the chance to see it before it came down.
When I saw this thread back at the top, I had hoped that it wasn't because it was gone... |
The Aram (68.42.70.102 - 68.42.70.102)
| | Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 4:27 pm: | |
Such a shame. I was there three weeks ago to take pictures, I'll scan some tonight if I have the chance (Along with all the others I've been meaning to post here of other things around the city). I'm glad I got to see it before it was gone. Does anyone have any pictures of it in it's heyday? I would really like to see what it was like "unruined". |
AIW (64.228.134.140 - 64.228.134.140)
| | Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 4:32 pm: | |
Sorry I can't help you out Aram.
RIP St. Cyril's
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ex-Deeetroiter (24.30.96.64 - 24.30.96.64)
| | Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 10:28 pm: | |
Photography in the 50s and 60s wasn't what it is today. I checked and really don't have any good shots of my cousin's wedding which took place in 60. One shot in front of St Cyril's which frankly looks like any other church doors. I should check with her and see what she has--although I doubt anything that would be of merit.
I'd be willing to bet that there are some good shots in the archives at New St Cyril's. Maybe if someone were to ask the parishioners nicely.........
Also, did anyone notice what the arches were made of? Were they steel or wooden? The interior structural arches that is. |
The Aram (68.42.70.102 - 68.42.70.102)
| | Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 11:02 pm: | |
If someone could go over to New St. Cyril's, I bet they could give you some old pictures of the church. I'd go, but presently I can't really get out to Sterling Heights readily.
I thought someone said that when they went to the church, someone had torn apart an arch, and it was steel. But that might be wrong.
I plan on driving out to the pile of rubble next week to get some after shots. I'm really glad I got out there before it was gone. I only regret I didn't at least open the front door to look inside. |
gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 11:47 pm: | |
ex-Deetroiter: I have quite a few pictures taken inside showing various arches but I'm not sure just which kind you're referring to. If you email me at gbower12@comcast.net I could send you more pictures showing interior arches that might give you an answer. |
The Aram (68.42.70.102 - 68.42.70.102)
| | Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 11:54 pm: | |
Here are the pictures as promised. I have more, but these are amongst the best.
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The Aram (68.42.70.102 - 68.42.70.102)
| | Posted on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 12:06 am: | |
Here's the first two from the above post, had a little problem with the formatting.
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DRM (68.41.175.223 - 68.41.175.223)
| | Posted on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 9:05 pm: | |
My mother grew up in the neighborhood and, according to her, St. Cyril was the Czechoslovakian parish, while the Polish Catholics in the neighborhood went to St. Thomas. Although she went to St. Thomas, she remembers going to St. Cyril with her grandmother as a child to play bingo every week.
DRM |
The Aram (68.42.70.102 - 68.42.70.102)
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 8:40 pm: | |
I plan on going out to the rubble next week Monday after the yearly trip to the cemetary (Woodlawn). I will take the digital camera as well to get some color shots, but I really want some black and white of the aftermath. I'll post 'em for you guys.
The search is still out for pictures of the way it was before it was abandoned...
I was also just thinking about this: I think the sign for the Word of Truth Temple or whatever the hell it was in it's final incarnation was leaning against the side of the building behind the tires when I was there. Anyone else notice it?
And also another thing: The church aisle went perpendicular to the front door, right? The altar was directly opposite the door? Just something i've been wondering. |
gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 9:07 pm: | |
As you entered the church you were under the balcony or choir loft, with the altar directly ahead at the far end of the church. It was in such disarray that you really couldn't see an aisle, but the pews and some chairs had been pushed off to each side, leaving a direct path, so to speak, to the altar, as long as you didn't mind stepping in puddles and over some debris as well. The other possibility would be that the pews occupied the middle part of the floor with an aisle on each side. And the Word of Truth banner that hung across the front of the building must have disappeared somewher along the line; I never saw it these past few months, but did see the "hands" sign with its message outside on the right on what looked like a wood addition adjoining the church itself. |
The Aram (68.42.70.102 - 68.42.70.102)
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 9:19 pm: | |
Thanks, gb. I figured as such about the aisleway. It must have been a very impressive space, even in ruins. I'm kicking myself for not getting gutsy curious and opening the door. As you can see in my pictures of the door above (the black and white ones) the padlock was broken and the door was invitingly cracked open a few inches.
You're probably right about the sign. I thought I saw it, but you were there more than I was, so it was probably gone. I must have melded it in my mind with the "hands" mural. My dad noticed when we were there that the sidewalk was replaced in 1997 in front of it, so that means the church was either 1. recently abandoned or 2. still in use by the Temple at that point. Does anyone know for sure the timeframe of the baptist congregation? All the pictures I've seen seem to be from 1999 at the earliest, and the place was trashed then. The catholics left it in 1989, so that leaves ten years. I'm really interested to know the full history of the church, it just fascinates me. |
DRM (68.41.175.223 - 68.41.175.223)
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 10:21 pm: | |
Took a ride by there today and there ain't much left of St. Cyril. I hadn't been through that neighborhood since the 1970s when my late grandparents lived there. It was a scary place for a young kid whose head was filled with horror stories from his older relatives. Going by there today, it was just sad. Abandonment everywhere. And there, between vacant fields, I saw my grandparents' former house, one of the few still standing on the block.
Looks like the convent for St. Thomas is still in use as something, although there looks to be the ruins of the church behind it. I just couldn't bring myself to stick around very long to investigate. Maybe some other time.
DRM |
ex-Deeetroiter (24.30.96.64 - 24.30.96.64)
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 12:55 am: | |
In the original church, before it became a Baptist Church, there was a wide long aisle from the doors to the altar with pews on both sides. If the doors were open, you would have a clear view of the altar. The pews would have been bolted to the floor and I doubt that they would be easily moved.
The original altar would not have faced the congregation. It would have faced the wall. It was only until the changes in the 60s that the altar was moved and the Mass was celebrated with the priest facing the parishioners. There also was a Communion rail that would have run the width of the Church before the first row of pews. Some of the older Churches were very late in taking this out and it might never have been removed from St Cyril's.
The overall shape of almost all older Roman Catholic Churches is a Cross. And in St Cyril's there were two side altars, as in all other RC Churches. These would not be visible from the main doors. They were off to the side. One of the side altars was probably devoted to Mary. The other would be devoted to a favorite saint such as St Joseph or in this case, possibly Saint Cyril.
Incidentally, St Cyril is usually paired with St Methodius and is believed to have introduced Christianity to the Slavic lands. St Cyril is also believed to have introduced writing to the lands. The Russians write with a different alphabet than we do, the Cyrillic alphabet.
And DRM is 100% correct. The parish was more Czech than Polish. I had relatives who were members and made the erroneous assumption that since they were Poles, the whole parish was. Oh well, that's one of the points of this board: To Learn. |
Hamtramck Steve (136.181.195.17 - 136.181.195.17)
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 12:10 pm: | |
Actually, the placement of the altar really didn't change as a result of Vatican II. What did change was the priest's orientation to the congregants. The altar is always at the rear of the sanctuary.
Prior to Vatican II, the priest stood with his back to the congregation and faced the main altar, because the Mass is an offering from the people to God, with the priest fulfilling a dual role or an inbetween position; he is one of the congregation at the same time he is filling the role of Jesus at the Last Supper.
Since the priest is a part of the congregation, and the Mass is directed to God, it only made sense that the priest would also face God. The earliest Masses were held with very small groups, in small spaces (very often in catacombs), so it wasn't a big deal.
Vatican II turned the priest around to face the congregation to allow the people to see what he was doing, and an altar table was pulled out a ways from the main altar. For those who understood the symbolism of the priest facing the altar, the change was seen as an insult to God, since the priest was literally turning his back to God. |
gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 3:12 pm: | |
Went by there this morning and there were two big CATs at work. Several of us---including two gentlemen who had grown up in the parish (one said he and his father had a funeral home just up St. Cyril street a ways)---watched the final demolition. The west wall was the last to go and stood there "proudly", or maybe just stubbornly, until the CAT moved in and looked like a huge monster devouring it. A few clouds of dust, crashes of concrete and bricks, tangled steel, bent student lockers, and it was all gone. I didn't dare to ask the two who also stood there how it felt for them but could sense from their silence and attention that it must have brought back some bittersweet memories. I'll post some last pictures later. |
gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 3:29 pm: | |
Here's the demise of the school part of St.Cyril. One of the men with whom I stood and watched pointed at the lockers and said the 5th one over was his when he was a kid at school there.
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gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 3:31 pm: | |
One of the CATs smashes a hole in the west wall and raises a cloud of dust.
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gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 3:34 pm: | |
Sitting on the sidewalk was a large cornerstone, one of two at the church, which hopefully will be retrieved and given to the new St.Cyril Church in Sterling Heights.
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gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 3:35 pm: | |
Down it comes.
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gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 3:38 pm: | |
That's it; it's gone. Farewell to St. Cyril and Methodius Church.
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The Aram (68.42.70.102 - 68.42.70.102)
| | Posted on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 9:23 pm: | |
I went out to the rubble today on the way home from the annual trip to Woodlawn Cemetary. It was fitting to be there on Memorial Day. I took some pictures, black and white of course, I'll develop them tomorrow and post some low-res scans tomorrow night. It was so strange to come up Kern St. and see two large piles of pinkish-brown rubble instead of a big, imposing church. While I was taking some pictures of the total devestation from across the street, the man who lives on the corner house on Kern and St. Cyril Ave. came out, we chatted for a minute. He said "Yeah, they took care of it last week. Grand old church..." He and his family were leaving, otherwise I would have asked him a bunch of questions I had about the place as it looked like he had lived there for awhile. I grabbed a small shard of the facade, there was a ton of it just lying around. Such a shame. Behind the initial piles of rubble is a giant hole from the basement, there's still some doors and walls intact down there, but I think some bulldozers will be out next week to finish it all off for good and haul off the remnants. I did not see, but I did look for, the cornerstone gb posted a picture of. I think probably those people who were there from the church to watch it finished off took it, at least I really hope they did instead of someone looking for a souvenier (although I really shouldn't talk, even though I just took basically a chunk of smooth concrete-like material). So sad to see. |
AIW (64.228.133.130 - 64.228.133.130)
| | Posted on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 10:09 pm: | |
Aram,
Taking a peice of rubble from a demolished building is nothing to be ashamed of, I probably would have done the same.
Those that strip closed/vacant restorable buildings regardless of if they are the ower or not just to make a buck are disgusting.
No harm from you, I'm looking forward to the pictures... |
The Aram (68.42.70.102 - 68.42.70.102)
| | Posted on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 10:17 pm: | |
Thanks, AIW.
An unrelated (semi-related) question, I was thinking about starting a new thread about it. I noticed a church off of ?I-94? on my way out of town that looked really interesting. About five minutes from Van Dyke. I asked my grandmother about it this afternoon (she's 89, life-long Detroit resident), she said "Oh, that one on Shane? Yeah, St. Gabriel's. Nice building." Only thing is, one of the crosses is gone and it looks pretty rough. I think I'll go back and investigate further, but it looked like a really beautiful building in need of some serious attention. Is it abandoned? I can't imagine a beautiful church like that would just have a cross lopped off of it. Could it be a new St. Cyril-esque story??? |
gb (68.40.109.140 - 68.40.109.140)
| | Posted on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 10:44 pm: | |
If you saw it just off the freeway on Chene, or very close to Chene, it must have been St. Stanislaus which is on Medbury between Chene and Dubois. A very pretty, old church which is now another denomination---the Promise Land Missionary Baptist church. The former school (which looks renovateed) is now the Detroit Academy of Arts and Sciences, an Edison school. The church, rectory, and the school are all very attractive and well maintained. Go see 'em and take some pictures.
Here may be the steeple you saw:
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