Discuss Detroit » Archives - Beginning July 2006 » Rash of overdoses « Previous Next »
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Pacypacy_
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Username: Pacypacy_

Post Number: 33
Registered: 05-2006
Posted From: 136.181.195.84
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 8:13 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Am I the only one sick of hearing everyone but the addicts being blamed for the recent rash of drug overdose deaths?
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Machoken
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Username: Machoken

Post Number: 1250
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 207.145.38.104
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 8:18 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's not the user's (and I doubt that everyone that has died is addicted) fault that their drug of choice has been laced with fentanyl.
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Wash_man
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Username: Wash_man

Post Number: 8
Registered: 05-2006
Posted From: 69.221.80.238
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 8:31 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

But it is their fault that they chose to use drugs. Survival of the fittest.
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Itsjeff
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Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5923
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 208.27.111.125
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 8:33 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pacypacy, why don't you spend some time in at Detroit Receiving E.R. That way you can maybe bitchslap some of the addicts before they die. That'll really learn 'em.
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Homer
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Username: Homer

Post Number: 46
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 69.242.221.113
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 8:35 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

...well, actually I don't get it. Dead junkies, who cares?
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Chow
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Username: Chow

Post Number: 298
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.246.31.218
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 8:36 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

...its still a life.
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Pam
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Username: Pam

Post Number: 207
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 67.107.47.65
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 8:43 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

It's not the user's (and I doubt that everyone that has died is addicted) fault that their drug of choice has been laced with fentanyl.




True but there is always the risk it is laced with something. They assume that risk by using street drugs, so yes the victim is partly to blame.
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Itsjeff
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Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5924
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 208.27.111.125
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 8:51 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And their deaths aren't enough penance for you people?
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Pacypacy_
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Username: Pacypacy_

Post Number: 34
Registered: 05-2006
Posted From: 136.181.195.84
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 8:59 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Don't change my original post. I'm talking about the blame being placed everywhere but on the users.
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Merchantgander
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Username: Merchantgander

Post Number: 1804
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 150.198.150.244
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 9:02 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

NO I HOPE THEY BURN IN HELL. :-)
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Itsjeff
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Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5925
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 208.27.111.125
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 9:24 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pacypacy, you're referring to the comments made by parents of children who just died of heroin overdoses. You might want to cut them a little slack.
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Magnasco
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Username: Magnasco

Post Number: 113
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 71.159.22.4
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 9:35 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well you know its their fault that the kids are addicted to drugs. You should slap them too while you are at it!
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Pacypacy_
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Username: Pacypacy_

Post Number: 35
Registered: 05-2006
Posted From: 136.181.195.84
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 10:53 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

itsjeff QUOTE: Pacypacy, you're referring to the comments made by parents of children who just died of heroin overdoses.

No, you are wrong, so don't speak for me. I am speaking of the whole attitude of everyone else to blame but the addicts. As far as the parents of these addicts, well parents are supposed to act before a situation gets out of hand. If the addicts are over 18 they are making their own choices.
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Itsjeff
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Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5929
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 208.27.111.125
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 11:05 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Perhaps if you weren't so vague, I wouldn't have to make assumptions about what you really mean. Please define who it is that you think is blaming everyone but the addicts.
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Pacypacy_
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Username: Pacypacy_

Post Number: 36
Registered: 05-2006
Posted From: 136.181.195.84
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 11:16 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well let's see... we have the Feds looking for an illegal lab, so it's the labs fault. It's the people who are cutting the heroin's fault. The police are looking for the pushers, so it's their fault. The prosecuters are looking for the sellers to charge them with murder, so it's their fault. The word should have gone out months ago so it's the government's fault. What good would that have done? Will everyone suddenly stop buying heroin? At what point does someone intent on medicating themselves for no reason who buys illegal drugs from an illegal pharmacist and injects them into their body bear a little responsibility here?
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Machoken
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Username: Machoken

Post Number: 1254
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 207.145.38.104
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 11:22 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sounds to me like they're attacking the problem from all sides. Much of the responsibility of getting the user to stop falls on the family and friends, and to a lesser extent rehab facilities.

So what's the problem again?
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Itsjeff
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Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5930
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 208.27.111.125
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 11:26 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I need to be clear here. Are you against the efforts to track down the illegal labs, finding the pushers and prosecuting them?
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Pacypacy_
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Username: Pacypacy_

Post Number: 37
Registered: 05-2006
Posted From: 136.181.195.84
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 11:48 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

C'mon, let's not swerve the topic. Remember my post deals with the way blame is being assessed here, that's all.
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Citylover
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Username: Citylover

Post Number: 1610
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 4.229.123.137
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 11:48 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As someone that once posted frequently on this forum this is ironic.I no loger post because the subject of legalization of reefer came up and over the course of that discussion I revealed I was a recovering opiate addict.

Some on the forum used that to belittle me and go as far as to suggest that my intellect had been compromised by drug use because I did not agree with them on entirely different topics.After this post I doubt very much if I will post here again_ I do not ask nor do I expect any sympathy or empathy.

To your posts Papacy I wonder if you are an addict a former addict or have lost someone to substance abuse? I ask because the degree of scorn I get from your posts suggest that may be the case.As for your point I agree; addicts or users ultimately bear responsibilty_ the ones we are discussing here have died that seems to be taking about as much responsibility as humanly possible.
Drug use is a Russian roulette every time someone snorts, injects or smokes something obtained on the street......an occupational hazard is how it was described to me .

The sad thing is that the only time it matters about responsibilty is when a junkie admits he/she is a junkie alkie or whatever and decides it is a problem.Other than that all the scorn and hostilty and judging done by you or anyone else matters not one tiny little spec to the abuser.

I will close with a few observations , I did not read where any blame has been assigned.I did read that authorities are trying to get the word out and that is good because an addicts life is just as valuable as any one elses. I also read that the Mother of one of a young man that died last Nov talked about how her son began by exprimenting with Marijuana.
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7milekid
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Username: 7milekid

Post Number: 48
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 68.41.222.28
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 11:51 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

government conspiracy
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Johnnny5
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Username: Johnnny5

Post Number: 258
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 71.227.95.4
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 12:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Drug abuse is an addiction, plain and simple. For anyone to say that these people deserved to die because they were "Junkies" is despicable. I don't use illegal drugs, nor do I think they should be legalized; but I have seen the effect it can have on the users and their families. What if your sister, father, mother, daughter died of an overdose? Would you still say "Who cares they were just a "junkie"? Addiction can happen to anyone, don't think you or your family is above it, it's not a matter of being "better" or "stronger" it's a physical condition that should be treated as such.

On a side note, if government agencies were aware of a major problem with contaminated drugs they should have made the public aware of it. Should the victim’s families (and their lawyers) be getting rich off of it? Hell no. But if the information could have saved lives then it should have been distributed.
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Susanarosa
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Username: Susanarosa

Post Number: 842
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 208.39.170.90
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 12:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Everyone has their panties in a bunch because their kids or loved ones died from injesting or injecting themselves with heroin or cocaine spiked with fentonoyl that supposedly the government knew about and didn't say anything.

Now, in response, the county is rushing to get out word that this lethal combination is on the streets.

But drug addicts die everyday. There's already been a slew of anti-drug campaigns and guess what? Folks die from heroin overdoses every day. Where's the outrage then? Does anyone think NOW some public service campaign is going to help or work?

If a junkie needs a fix they're going to get it fentonoyl be damned. These poor folks that died would have chosen to injest or inject drugs into their systems regardless of a fentonoyl scare and media campaign. But now it's a big deal. That's what pisses me off.
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Pacypacy_
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Username: Pacypacy_

Post Number: 38
Registered: 05-2006
Posted From: 136.181.195.84
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 12:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Citylover (QUOTE)To your posts Papacy I wonder if you are an addict a former addict or have lost someone to substance abuse? I ask because the degree of scorn I get from your posts suggest that may be the case.

No scorn from me, and I'm not a former addict. Again, don't put words in my mouth. My whole point was the placing of blame, that's all. As a side note, I had an inkling that sooner or later the "government conspiracy" crowd would show up on this thread and some seem to have done just that.
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Pam
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Username: Pam

Post Number: 208
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 67.107.47.65
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 12:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Did they deserve to die? No. I didn't see anybody saying that. But they chose to engage in a high risk behavior known to cause death, so they do share responsibility for ending their own life.
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1630
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Username: 1630

Post Number: 35
Registered: 08-2005
Posted From: 71.159.22.4
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 2:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When I was growing up, I really felt sorry for that first wave of Detroit junkies. A lot of them were children of rural southern migrants who had never even heard of heroin and nobody really knew (certainly not firsthand) the depths to which heroin could drag a human being and his/her family. (And like virtually every family in Detroit, mine has its casualties.) They and the community learned the hard way.

I'm not as sympathetic now, because no one can plead ignorance any more. People who do heroin have made an unfortunate and deadly choice. Some of them even find a certain dark romantic glamor in this choice, but it's the darkness that makes it romantic to them. Flirting with death is an occupational hazard of heroin.

Sometimes the flirtation is consumated. I honestly don't think this is a frontpage story. If you, in spite of the fences and warnings, jump into a lion's den, don't be surprised at the results.

I was going to compare it to parking a car in a very tough neighborhood and dealing with the results of that decision. But that's not a fair comparison.

You have a legal right to park that car.
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Itsjeff
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Username: Itsjeff

Post Number: 5931
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 208.27.111.125
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 2:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is an absurd thread. No one is excusing the addicts. When I asked Pacy to explain why he thinks that people are, he said because the police were trying to track down the lab and the pushers. (Why that hasn't made a Hot Fudge SPdJ already, I don't understand.)

The only people I've read about who are remotely blaming others are the grieving parents of the dead addicts. Right now I would let them say that black is white.
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 1047
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 69.129.146.186
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 2:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

but it would be nice if a little more $$ went into addiction (and suicide) research

the elephants no one wants to deal with
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Susanarosa
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Username: Susanarosa

Post Number: 844
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 208.39.170.90
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 2:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry Jeff, I have to disagree with you about this thread being absurd.

I thought your and Pacy's disagreement had been resolved posts ago. In my opinion we've now moved on to expressing our opinions over what is wrong in our society that ignores that people die from heroin and cocaine and meth and crack everyday but now the same people that sat on their hands for years are freaking out that the government didn't do anything sooner about these deaths.

That's how I see it, of course I could be mistaken.
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 1048
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 69.129.146.186
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 2:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

this is the same argument as 'if there was no demand the dealers would go away'

and it really shows blatant ignorance of the reality of addiction/alcoholism (which is biologically based and re-inforced by negative judgments such as those passed here). Do you all talk this way about your relatives who die of heart disease, uncontrolled diabetes, lung or skin cancer, etc.?
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Susanarosa
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Username: Susanarosa

Post Number: 845
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 208.39.170.90
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 2:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Addiction is a disease. But I'm not going to sue Phillip Morris if I get lung cancer like some jokers out there. I know what smoking does to a person. I grew up hearing the PSA's. But everytime I light a cigarette I know that I could get lung cancer, die from a stroke or heart disease but that's my choice.

Snorting coke and injecting heroin is a choice. The same PSA's were issued for those drugs as well. Those folks didn't listen either. What in the world makes anyone think that people will listen now? Especially those ALREADY ADDICTED.

(Message edited by susanarosa on May 25, 2006)
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Belleislerunner
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Username: Belleislerunner

Post Number: 261
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 198.204.133.208
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 3:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Addiction is a euphemism for no self control.

You can't get addicted to something unless you make a choice to try it for the first time.

The responsibility then rests solely with the individual who made the choice.
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 1049
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 69.129.146.186
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 5:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

and everyone knows kids never try anything thet're told not to

and someone not pre-disposed to addiction might get away with using a couple of times without getting hooked

but once hooked there's not a lot of help getting off, mostly just kicks in the teeth

and let's not make the false distinction between legal and illegal drugs - speed, oxy, whatever, from the doctor is no different than from the street

(Message edited by lilpup on May 25, 2006)
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Pacypacy_
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Username: Pacypacy_

Post Number: 41
Registered: 05-2006
Posted From: 24.192.166.67
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 6:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

itsjeff QUOTE:This is an absurd thread. No one is excusing the addicts. When I asked Pacy to explain why he thinks that people are, he said because the police were trying to track down the lab and the pushers.

Mis-quotes now? Read my entire post.
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Jimg
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Username: Jimg

Post Number: 603
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 64.12.116.204
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 6:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Actually, some junkies will seek out the Fentanyl-laced stuff...

"No self control", Bellislerunner? Haven't kept up much with medical research have ya? Think addiction moved into the 'disease' family a few decades ago.
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Belleislerunner
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Username: Belleislerunner

Post Number: 263
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 68.33.62.174
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 6:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A disease doesn't mean catching it was unpreventable.
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Esd
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Username: Esd

Post Number: 17
Registered: 05-2006
Posted From: 69.14.2.154
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 7:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quote:"No self control", Bellislerunner? Haven't kept up much with medical research have ya? Think addiction moved into the 'disease' family a few decades ago.

Yes, addiction is a disease but some addicts are able to use "self control" to fight their addiction and live productive lives.
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Jimg
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Username: Jimg

Post Number: 604
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 64.12.116.204
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 8:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

HaHa...suggest you consult Dr. Benway...he'll learn ya about The Algebra Of Need...
Reading these posts, sympathetic/understanding/cold /whatever is interesting, but "Junkie" or "Naked Lunch" will hip you to the fax, Max...

(Message edited by jimg on May 25, 2006)
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Ravine
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Username: Ravine

Post Number: 87
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 71.154.54.169
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 8:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am relatively new to this forum. I had no idea that so many of the participants were so judgmental and totally lacking in humility. Some of these posts are truly disgusting. Why not just come right out and say, "F*** 'em, let 'em die, they were weak examples of our exalted species, anyway."
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Pffft
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Username: Pffft

Post Number: 974
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 69.221.95.60
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 9:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ravine,

Check how many posts our judgmental, right-wing friend Pacypacy has -- are we up to 38 yet?

Not everybody here is that weasel-minded.

CL, I wouldn't let the angry young reactionaries run you off, we disagree on a lot but you have a lot to offer as a poster.

JimG, the voice of reason, as always.
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Jimg
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Username: Jimg

Post Number: 606
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 10:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

1630, am curious what decade you were born...the first generation of Det junkies started using in the 40s, just like most major cities.

Pacypacy, you feel better if someone is 'blamed'? OK, it's all the user's fault. They shouldn't take illegal substances to ease whatever pain they're in - stick with Alcohol.
You do realize people take drugs because they are in pain, right?
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Jimg
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Username: Jimg

Post Number: 607
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 10:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

CL, Pffft is quite right man, I too disagree with you on things but your view is valid, for sure...good to have some folks to counterbalance these 'angry young reactionaries'...and you a musician, too.
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Lowell
Board Administrator
Username: Lowell

Post Number: 2647
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 66.167.210.191
Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 12:21 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This can be avoided. Get rid of laws on any drug use for adults and deal with addiction as a medical problem. Let adults do with their bodies as they please, a little thing called liberty.

We do this with alcohol and tobacco, both more poisonous and addictive than the many drugs we criminalize. But at least they have to meet regulated standards. Addiction is a disease; this is a health issue, not a legal issue.

Our puritanical bent seems to block many from realizing that a large part of our population is going to screw themselves up through what they put in their bodies, be it fat, sugar, booze, or heroin. Instead we create a prison-industry complex that wastes billions and spawns huge criminal undergrounds.

Make everything legal for adults, but also discourage its use. Ban all advertising of alcohol, tobacco, prescription drugs and currently illegal drugs. Intensify health education and health care for those who are weak. We all know someone who is.

Welcome back CL, I've missed you.
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Supersport
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Username: Supersport

Post Number: 10128
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.246.37.236
Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 12:36 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It IS the government's fault. As Lowell stated, do away with the laws reguarding drugs, regulate them, tax the shit outta them if it make the feds happy. In the end, you won't have hundreds and thousands dying because the pusher laced the stuff with rat poison or something worse.

The problem with drugs is it's lack of regulation. What if you could go to the local drug store and pick out the potency of the drug you desire, much like you can with alcohol content in regards to beer and liquor. How many lives would be saved because people not only knew what they were getting, but followed the recommended doseage on the packaging.

The war on drugs is a war that will NEVER be won, so why not at least try and regulate it?
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Wabashrr1
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Username: Wabashrr1

Post Number: 145
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 152.163.100.8
Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 1:17 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

How many lives would be saved because people not only knew what they were getting, but followed the recommended doseage on the packaging




That is the most ridiculous thing I've read in this thread so far. I'm sure that you've seen people who have had WAY too much to drink (for example), that don't know when to quit. That, or drink til they pass out, puke, or both. Then some of these people have the nerve to get into a car and drive, turning the car into a drunken guided missile. Do you Seriously think, that a junkie, perscription or otherwise, is going to Follow the instructions?? Somehow you seemed more intelligent than that. I do agree with your last statement however....


quote:

The war on drugs is a war that will NEVER be won, so why not at least try and regulate it?


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Southwestmap
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Username: Southwestmap

Post Number: 482
Registered: 01-2005
Posted From: 64.79.90.206
Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 10:00 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is food for thought for the sympathizers from an op-ed yesterday by Theodore Dalrymple in the WSJ: "It actually takes some considerable effort to addict oneself to opiates (such as heroin) The average heroin addict has been taking it for a year before developing an addiction....It is not true either that addicts can not give up without the help of an apparatus of medical and paramedical care. Thousands of American servicemen returning from Vietnam where they had addicted themselves to heroin, gave up on their return home without any assistance whatsoever. And in China, millions of Chinese addicts gave up with only minimal help: Mao Tse-Tungs's credible offer to shoot them if they did not.... Addicts and therapists have a vested interest in the orthodox view."

Dalrymple is an acknowledged Conservative, a medical doctor living in Great Britain. His position is that heroin addiction is a choice, not a disease. He is willing, it seems, to see alcoholism as a disease (perhaps because it appears to have a genetic component)- but not opiates. He also said that withdrawal from opiates is trivial, medically-speaking, compared to withdrawal from alcohol and barbituates
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Kimmiann
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Username: Kimmiann

Post Number: 33
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 155.139.40.51
Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 1:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Southwestmap - I saw that one, too. Very interesting article - http://www.manhattan-institute .org/html/_wsj-poppycock.htm, although I'll bet it'll raise hackles on the neck of any substance-abuse counselor.
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River_rat
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Username: River_rat

Post Number: 128
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 68.166.44.44
Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 3:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This thread is replete with more misstatements about addiction than any I can remember.

One truth is from CL. You can not stop an addict until they want to stop. Welcome back, CL, that was a brave post.

As for addidction being a "disease". The catagorization of addiction as a disease originated about 40 years ago as one of the earliest examples of Political Correctness. With the development of "the Great Society" docrine of Lyndon Johnson, no one was at fault for being poor, addicted, a criminal, pregnant, uneducated, hopeless, etc., it was all a problem of societal ills. Forty plus years later (and about $9 trillion wasted) we still have all the problems. What is true is that the result of addiction is a disease, but addiction is entered by choice, AND, is exited by choice (or death).

Lowell's lovely Libertarian Party line about letting every one have all the drugs they want legally is naive. who is going to pay for it? Sure, horse, crack, etc. can be made very inexpensively, but then wo should pay for the drugs and the resultant problems from their use. These problems include unemployment (you don't work well under the influence), lack of motivation, nasal septal ulcer treatment, on and on.

Pacypacy started the thread with a simple comment. Paraphrasing the comment, "Drug usage is a personal choice, and those chosing to do so must bear the consequences". Not a liberal idea. but true.
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Lowell
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Post Number: 2650
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Posted From: 66.167.210.191
Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 3:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not a Libertarian [Republicans who to smoke dope] Party member, just a libertarian, River rat. "wo should pay for the drugs and the resultant problems from their use".

Who is paying for it now? Ultimately we are by supporting the prison, legal, underworld complex that the these repressive laws create and foster. Hundreds of billions are being wasted to no avail on a "war on drugs". Just like a "war on terror" or a "war on poverty" it can never be won because a abstract concept cannot be defeated. The price of street drugs have dropped, usage continues at its normal pace and organized crime corrupts our police.

If it is you wish to turn this discussion into re-mouthing Rush 'pill-head' Limbaugh's simplistic attacks on your political enemies, nothing will change.

Legalization combined is discouragement, education and bans on all advertising of all drugs legal, prescription and illegal is a policy. The war on drugs merely creates more government bureacracy, a huge waste of taxes and is an intrusion into the private lives of adults. If you support a war on drugs, you support big government by default -- the creation of unnessary programs for the benefit of those who administer it.

If someone breaks the law by stealing or violence, then arrest them. Otherwise lock up all the obese people, outlaw tobacco and alcohol. Instead we have a policy where the deadliest drug known, alcohol, is freely advertised at all major events and targeted at youth while responsible adults are often jailed for private use of recreational drugs.
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Jsmyers
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Username: Jsmyers

Post Number: 1739
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 209.131.7.68
Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 3:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Lowell's lovely Libertarian Party line about letting every one have all the drugs they want legally is naive. who is going to pay for it? Sure, horse, crack, etc. can be made very inexpensively, but then wo should pay for the drugs and the resultant problems from their use. These problems include unemployment (you don't work well under the influence), lack of motivation, nasal septal ulcer treatment, on and on.




You choose now to acknowledge externalities?!?
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Spartacus
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Username: Spartacus

Post Number: 116
Registered: 07-2005
Posted From: 209.114.251.65
Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 3:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Are some of you really suggesting that you should be able to buy heroin at the corner drugstore?

Is it legal to buy, sell and use heroin anywhere in the world?
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Lowell
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Username: Lowell

Post Number: 2651
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Posted From: 66.167.210.191
Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 4:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Are some of you really suggesting that you should be able to buy heroin". If you are an adult, why not? You can buy a far deadlier and equally addictive drugs there already - alcohol and tobacco and the world hasn't fallen apart.

But listen to what else I say. The drugstore, manufacturers or no one can advertise any of them, alcohol and tobacco included. Intense education as to why you should not consume them would be the only advertisement allowed.

There is a myth that if this occurred that there would be run on the stores and all of us will be addicts. The fact is that the small percentage of the population intent on self destruction may but you and I won't.

Meanwhile crackhead won't need to break into your car to give money to the underworld millionaires for unregulated poisoned drugs. He also will not be filling our prison system.

Naturally a degree of criminal enterprise will continue. White lightning is still made long after alcohol prohibition is ended, but millions of alcohol addicts are not filling our prisons nor thousands dying from poisoned bathtub gins as they did in prohibition.

Unemployment, yes, for the lawyers, judges, narc squads, advertising agencies, prison guards and underworld players who are the beneficiaries of the 'war on drugs'.
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Spartacus
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Username: Spartacus

Post Number: 117
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Posted From: 209.114.251.65
Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 4:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Explain why crackheads won't have to break into my car? You can't have it both ways. If you make drugs legal you will drastically reduce the price. The premium that users pay because it is illegal will disappear. If the price is reduced can we agree that the use will also increase? This is where the "tax the hell out of it argument" usually comes in. If you make drugs as expensive as they are now then addicts will still be "forced" to steal to feed their habit. If you make them more expensive you run the risk of having the worst of both worlds because there will be room for an underground market in addition to the legal market--either way you haven't stopped people from stealing unless you reduce the price.

Do you have any evidence that heroin is less dangerous than alcohol or tobacco? Or that it is not more addictive? If true that would be very surprising. I firmly belive that if heroin were legal more people (or perhaps even MANY more people) would try it. If more people try it I think its safe to say that more people will be negatively impacted through its use. I think that if it lost its social stigma that would be a bad thing.
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Jimg
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Username: Jimg

Post Number: 608
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Posted From: 205.188.116.137
Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 4:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think what many folks overlook is WHY people use drugs. It's because they are in some type of pain - physical, emotional, spiritual. Drug use eases the pain, at least temporarily...but you can't run from yourself.
Making drugs legal won't necessarily create more addicts. Did legalizing alcohol create more drunks?
When alcohol was outlawed, it was hip to try it, to drink, even if one didn't enjoy it.
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Jimg
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Username: Jimg

Post Number: 609
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Posted From: 152.163.100.8
Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 5:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ps - According to William S. Burroughs, Heroin isn't inherently harmful to humans - other than creating dependence of course lol.
Burroughs stayed off of junk for many years by taking the 'apomorphine cure' in England where, by the way, H was routinely prescribed for addicts. I don't know how successful it was but it was kinda the 'place to go' if you were an addict and had some cash - like William S.
Has anyone posting on this thread read "Naked Lunch" or "Junkie"? Addiction 101.
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Lowell
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Username: Lowell

Post Number: 2652
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Posted From: 66.167.210.191
Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 7:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Spartacus, this is probably the closest thing to legalizaton, prescription legalization.

Heroin prescription
In a few countries, like Switzerland, there are programs for heroin prescription for addicts which are not suited for withdrawal programs - for example because several withdrawal attempts have failed. The main intention behind this rather controversial action is maintaining the health of the addict in order to avoid medical harms stemming from low-quality street heroin; and reducing drug-related crime is another goal; and furthermore addicts can more easily get or maintain a paid job. In the Swiss program, the first project has begun 1994 with 340 addicts and it was later expanded to 1000 users after medical and social studies suggested its continuation. The people are prescribed to inject the heroin where they bought it (specially designed rooms, pharmacies) for about $13 per dose. The good experiences made in the Swiss trials led German, Dutch and Australian cities to scheme their own heroin prescription.
Source: Wikipedia

Of course there is now the bill before the Mexican legislature to allow possession of minor amounts of all drugs, but I don't know the status of that.
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Citylover
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Username: Citylover

Post Number: 1611
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 4.229.132.138
Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 7:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Spartacus the answer to your question is no; use will not neccesarily increase.As a former junkie I can attest to the idea that only those of us that had an unusual synergy with drugs and alcohol would seek it out.There is evidence of this everyday.One person is injured and they are prescribed narcotics, codeine percocet or something like that.They find an almost idiosyncratic bond with the narcotic and they seek it out long after any medical neccesity.Another person has a simlar injury is prescribed the same medication and the bottle sits 3/4 full in the medicine chest until somebody like I use to be comes along and steals it.Both prescriptions cost very little relatively speaking.

I found the Dalrymple reference interesting but to a recovering person it means nothing.The message he is sending is ..."Do it my way"..... what difference does it make to him what people call addiciton? If they want to call it a disease so be it as long as they are trying to conquer their demons? The likes of Dalrymple it seems to me believe that addicts should stop the way they (Dalrymple)think is the " legitimate" way to stop.

A quick history on the founders of the recovery movement Bill Wilson and Dr Robert Smith.These were the co-founders of AA.Bill Wilson was a chronic drunk_ addicted to alcohol. He had been hospitalized numerous times for alcoholism and again he found himself in the hospital.Prior to his last hospitalization he had been approached by a friend, another alcoholic that had been taken in by a religious fellowship and had stopped drinking.Wilson was amused and a bit curious but still he drank.
So on this particular hospitalization he felt hopeless and had resigned himself to dying an alcoholic death.He then prayed for relief or deliverance from God and he had what he refered to as a spritual experience; he was transformed a revelation had occurred. I write this and forgive the length only to make an illustration and here it is......
Some time later his physician came to see him.He told the dr. of his experience and asked if he was losing his mind or if he was crazy. The doctor responed in a way I don't think Dr. Dalrymple would have.He told Wilson that he was not crazy and that he had heard of people having such experiences under similar circumstances.But the most important thing he told him was that he had better hold onto it because it was so much better than what he was before. So I repeat what the hell difference does it make what people call it?
As for Dalrymples point about is becoming addictive after a years use that is preposterous_ unless one only uses it once a year.If someone is using heroin or morphine or dilaudid all potent narcotics on a regular basis they will quickly become physically dependent.
His point about withdrawal however I agree with.

Jim G you made a insightful point when you refered to spritual pain being one of the factors in people that abuse substances.This point was made by Jung to one of the early members of AA and in fact Bill Wilson had some correspondence with Jung crediting him (Jung) with being a mentor of sorts to AA.
Btw I sure as hell am not here to preach AA.I am here to say that however a substance abuser be they a drunk or a junkie or a pot head or a crack head finds a way to quit be it religion or AA or a church or whatever as long as it harms no one then more power to them.
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Lowell
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Post Number: 2653
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Posted From: 66.167.210.191
Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 8:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great post CL.

I don't take my position lightly. I have had too many near and dear to me suffer from their illegal drug addictions sometimes ending in natural death or suicide. None of them were violent or "bad" people and most met their needs legally. I have known even more who have been ravaged by alcohol, some by both. Such is the experience from being in the art world.

I can't say enough positive things about AA and how this approach has helped, and IMO, saved some people I know. The best part is that there is not pope of AA, although Bill Wilson qualifies as saint imo, no bureaucratic intrusion. Instead, it is a spontaneous open-minded volunteerist organization that is very local and personal. Sometimes I think it could almost be a model for democratic governing. Because of that it crosses bounds for religion, ethnicity and other social barriers. I guess when you are at the bottom it is pretty hard to go hating on anyone else.

I support a change of emphasis from trying to prevent what is unpreventable to treating this issue as a health problem. Like any health problem, it needs to be approached by treatment, education, and a search for cures.

To lock up someone for a personal weakness is not healing. Instead they will only get an education in crime from inmates.
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Pdtpuck
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Username: Pdtpuck

Post Number: 31
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 208.251.168.194
Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 2:58 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

absolutely great thread, people!

recovering addict/drunk myself

"There's a hole in daddy's arm where all the money goes...Jesus Christ died for nothin', I suppose."
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Adm70
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Username: Adm70

Post Number: 5
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 207.181.7.66
Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 6:14 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We've heard about Wayne County - what are the numbers for the others?
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 1054
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 152.163.100.8
Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 9:37 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

At least 17 in Genesee County & 3 in Oakland County since last September (Genesee contracts Oakland's medical examiner)

Local Flint news said it's a growing problem there

edit to add: Cook County, IL - Of the 43 Cook County cases, 30 died in Chicago, Limon said. City officials also have counted 379 suspected fentanyl overdose victims since April 13 who survived Chicago Sun-Times

(Message edited by lilpup on May 28, 2006)

(Message edited by lilpup on May 28, 2006)
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Warriorfan
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Username: Warriorfan

Post Number: 376
Registered: 08-2005
Posted From: 68.43.81.191
Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 9:53 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Genessee County doesn't have their own medical examiner, so Oakland County tracks their deaths. The three dead in Oakland County were in the Pontiac area.
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Pffft
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Username: Pffft

Post Number: 982
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 70.141.182.229
Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 11:06 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A teenager from Groves in B'ham was found dead in her car on a Detroit street, OK on heroin/fentanyl.

"Good family" ..."upper middle class community" the whole shot.

I must have been dozing when heroin became chic again for teenagers. What drives this?
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River_rat
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Username: River_rat

Post Number: 129
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 71.126.175.26
Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 6:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry to have been away since my last post. Someone asked if there was anywhere heroin is legally sold. Right here in the city for the last forty years! It is called methadone (a racemic heroin) and it is used in treatment by prescription. This treatment continues to be used to manage the physical withdrawl from narcotics. The emotional and psychiatric withdrawel is another phase of the treatment.

Lowell, you are espousing the Libertarian line about drugs, the only difference is that you do not want to eliminate all the government welfare as the Libertarians propose. The Libertarians agree that the beneficiaries of our drug policies are the drug lords, prison systems, lawyers, etc. They don't think the beneficiaries should be the welfare sate and the recipients of welfare. Libertarians believe all adults should be free to pursue their own goals unless they are infringing upon the lives of other adults. That includes taxation of one individual or group for the benefit of another. You can't have it both ways.

There is no free lunch--World Rule #4.
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Lowell
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Post Number: 2655
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Posted From: 66.167.210.191
Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 10:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is more serious than I thought. It is almost sounding like a mass poisoning, not overdose. It is as if someone deliberatly may dealt out poisonous blends.

quote:

Offering the most detailed accounting yet of the breadth of the damage, the Wayne County Medical Examiner's Office said Friday that at least 1 of every 3 killed by mixing heroin or cocaine with the painkiller fentanyl lives outside Detroit and that more than half of those who died are older than 40. The findings are based on a review of more than 130 confirmed cases in Wayne County between January 2005 and April.


More...
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 1055
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 152.163.100.8
Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 11:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

possibly someone cutting who doesn't understand the potency of fentanyl
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Erikto
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Username: Erikto

Post Number: 377
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 64.228.108.152
Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 2:26 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I remember reading about a drug sold as synthetic heroin in California in the early 80's, and this article mentions fentanyl users overdosing at the time. Bad news...
I think safe-injection sites could improve the situation, but I suspect the U.S. would sooner legalize child molestation.
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Ravine
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Username: Ravine

Post Number: 98
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 69.218.77.180
Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 9:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That Heroin Helper site is somewhat creepy.
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Barnesfoto
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Username: Barnesfoto

Post Number: 2027
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Posted From: 66.2.148.67
Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 1:56 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There are some things that one should never try to experience.
sex in prison and Heroin are in my top ten.
Nevertheless, being another member of the "art world" I've had two friends and several other aquaintances die from overdoses of the stuff. I watched one friend die after they unplugged him from life support at HFH on a cold january night in 1992.
I don't buy that every one of these people had some sort of pain that they were dealing with. Some of them just had bad judgement, or were seeking the ultimate "adventure" in a society where there is not enough adventure available.
Interestingly enough, one friend who was an addict for 20 years was able to kick his habit by using a hallucinogenic drug called Ibogaine.
Ibogaine is, of course, illegal in the US.
And it does not work for everybody, but it did save one person that I was sure would be dead by now.
as Lowell says:
I support a change of emphasis from trying to prevent what is unpreventable to treating this issue as a health problem. Like any health problem, it needs to be approached by treatment, education, and a search for cures.

To lock up someone for a personal weakness is not healing. Instead they will only get an education in crime from inmates.
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Danny
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Username: Danny

Post Number: 4196
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 141.217.173.169
Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 8:36 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fentanyl, A drug that kills instantly! I was wondering that WSU student who died in the bathroom in the Life Sciences Building has something to do with this DEADLY drug?

Maybe Fentanyl is a " wake up call " drug to keep heroine and other drug addicts from buying more and start realizing that street DRUGS KILLS!"
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Rustic
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Username: Rustic

Post Number: 2504
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 130.132.177.245
Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 10:23 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

story made the Drudgereport under the heading:
12 days in Detroit: 48 deaths [and counting] from bad heroin mix...
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 801
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Tuesday, June 06, 2006 - 3:59 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A few hundred deaths nationwide due to the bad mix were attributed yesterday to one drug source that got busted a couple days ago in Mexico.
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7even
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Username: 7even

Post Number: 28
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 198.109.26.18
Posted on Thursday, June 15, 2006 - 6:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just had a segment on NBC nightly news about the deaths. Said Detroit had about 70 O.D.'s this year.
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Warriorfan
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Username: Warriorfan

Post Number: 404
Registered: 08-2005
Posted From: 68.43.81.191
Posted on Thursday, June 15, 2006 - 7:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, I saw that on the Nightly News. Detroit had the most ODs out of all the cities they listed, so add "Number of heroin-fentanyl overdose deaths" to the list of things that Detroit is number one on. Take THAT Chicago!
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Pam
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Username: Pam

Post Number: 259
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 63.41.48.200
Posted on Monday, June 19, 2006 - 7:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

2 arrested in fentanyl related death:

http://www.wxyztv.com/wxyz/nw_ local_news/article/0,2132,WXYZ _15924_4786363,00.html
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Rjk
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Username: Rjk

Post Number: 356
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 68.41.145.5
Posted on Monday, June 19, 2006 - 7:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Saturday night, on Keating Street in Detroit, officers with the major crimes division and DEA agents raided the home of two suspected drug dealers who are brothers."

Just curious, what area of the city is Keating Steet located?
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Pam
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Username: Pam

Post Number: 269
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 63.41.48.245
Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 8:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chicago drug ring bust:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200 60621/ap_on_re_us/bad_heroin
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Dillpicklesoup
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Username: Dillpicklesoup

Post Number: 74
Registered: 05-2006
Posted From: 64.7.187.134
Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 8:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

howz about rehab?

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