  Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 2707 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 72.25.177.194 |
The Last Goliath America’s public education model is becoming antiquated by Dan Lips June 8, 2006 In his new book, An Army of Davids, Glenn Reynolds (Instapundit) explains how markets and technology empower ordinary people at the expense of big institutions. America’s public education system is one such Goliath, and Reynolds’s book is a source of optimism for those seeking better educational options. Today, parents have access to information about America’s public schools that was completely unavailable just a decade ago. All one has to do is visit the website www.SchoolMatters.com. From test scores to teacher qualifications, SchoolMatters.com provides information about almost every public school in the country. This website—and others such as GreatSchools.net and RateMyTeacher.com—give parents unprecedented access to information. With all of this information at hand, it’s only a matter of time before parents demand to control more of the decisions regarding their children’s education. After browsing the bounty of Ebay and Amazon, Americans have become hooked on the variety and choice that the Internet offers them as consumers. The same thing is happening in education. We’ve already seen what allowing parental choice into one sector of public education can produce. Since 1994, expanded parental choice in education has driven the creation of more than 3,600 charter schools that now educate more than a million students. Charters—America’s next-generation public schools—offer some of the most innovative instructional models in the country. To use Reynolds’ analogy, parents have long been Davids facing a Goliath in America’s public education system. But they are now gaining the power to take greater control over their children’s education. As Reynolds writes, “Let the Goliaths beware.” Dan Lips is an education analyst at the Heritage Foundation and a Goldwater Institute Senior Fellow. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4256 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 141.217.174.223 |
HAH! Goliath( That is the public school system) got hit a head by a stone pebble by little David.(which is the charter school system) Oh! how Goliath, the Philistine Giant has fallen?" Let me put this in latin: " O QVOMODO! HOMONE INGENS PALESTINA CADEBAT? " | ||
Miss_cleo Member Username: Miss_cleo Post Number: 233 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 69.47.85.139 |
ha, I just compared Detroit schools to Charlevoix, guess what? Detroit was blown out of the water. Detroit needs to get its act together and take care of the kids. Question? I thought lottery money went to the schools? If this is the case, why dont Detroit schools have any money? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 814 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Why don't drunken sailors have any money two days after payday? | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1757 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.68 |
It is surprising to you that a school district in a largely wealthy lake-front community is better on average than one with a large number of kids in poverty and children of poor immigrants? That makes me wonder what school district you went to... | ||
Miss_cleo Member Username: Miss_cleo Post Number: 234 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 69.47.85.139 |
no, its not surprising to me at all, seems like it is to some of you who are telling people to move into the city with their kids, bad idea. now, how about the lotto question hmmmm? | ||
Gildas Member Username: Gildas Post Number: 687 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 147.240.236.9 |
As the state doles out money to the districts, if I'm not mistaken Detroit actually gets more money per student then places like Charlevoix. Much like the rest of the city, the schools are poorly run and incompetent. As an example: http://www.educationreport.org /pubs/mer/article.asp?ID=7467 "Michigan taxpayers have a right to know what has happened to all the money invested in our education system since 1994. While we are among the highest spending states for K-12 public education, Michigan remains solidly stuck in the lower half of states relating to academic achievement on almost every measure." http://www.mackinac.org/pubs/m er/article.asp?ID=7489 Also: Detroit Public Schools increased spending in 2004 despite the loss of several thousand students. Revenue to the district was also up on a per-pupil level, but not by enough to keep up with the district’s spending. Michigan Department of Education Bulletin 1014, released over the summer, shows the Detroit Public Schools overall operating expenditures grew by $67.5 million in 2004, a 4.3 percent increase over 2003 expenditures. The district’s per pupil revenue rose as well. State and local revenues per student increased by 7.4 percent, and federal revenue rose nearly 28 percent per pupil. These increases came during a year when inflation was 2.6 percent. Despite the revenue increases, DPS spent $23.4 million more than it brought in during 2004. A review of Bulletin 1014 data for DPS from 1994 through 2004 shows significant investment in the district and a significant reduction in the number of students it served. Since the passage of Proposal A in 1994, the revenue received by the district has increased 67 percent per pupil. Total revenue for the district grew from $1.1 billion in 1994 to $1.5 billion in 2004, an increase of 38 percent during a period when cumulative inflation was 21 percent and the number of students served by the district declined by 17 percent. With a revenue increase 17 percentage points above the rate of inflation, and the loss of 30,000 students, the district struggles financially. Spending by the district increased by more than the amount of revenues received. Between 1994 and 2004, total operating expenditures by the district increased $532 million (48 percent), while revenues increased $417 million (38 percent). When adjusted for the enrollment decline, the increase in district expenditures is 79 percent per pupil between 1994 and 2004. Administrative expenditures increased 108 percent during the same time period. Adjusted for the decline in enrollment, the district spent 150 percent more in 2004 on administration per pupil than it did in 1994. Increases in per-pupil revenues similar to those received by the Detroit Public Schools have been the norm across the state under Proposal A. Districts in Michigan received an average increase in state and local revenues of 4.4 percent per pupil from 2003 to 2004 (state and local revenues to Detroit Public Schools increased by 7.4 percent over the same period), while inflation was 2.6 percent. Since Proposal A, the amount of state and local revenues per pupil has grown by an average of 54.9 percent statewide, compared to 61.1 percent for Detroit. Total inflation during the same 10-year period was 20.9 percent. Per pupil expenditures, up 55.1 percent at the state level since Proposal A, have predictably kept pace with revenue increases. This does not include infrastructure expenditures, which are funded by local millages. Revenues from such millages are up 217 percent since Proposal A in 1994. Source: Anderson Economic Group analysis of MDE Bulletin 1014 data I think the last paragraph is somewhat telling "Since Proposal A, the amount of state and local revenues per pupil has grown by an average of 54.9 percent statewide, compared to 61.1 percent for Detroit" Don't think I am against education, I am not (as a former educator) I just think that throwing money at a problem is not the solution. Spend the money to improve the schools, just spend it wisely and with some accountability. As a resident of Detroit, I think that the school system is one of the most important factors in rebuilding the city. However, like much of the cities problems, right now the job (in my opinion) is not being well done. | ||
Miss_cleo Member Username: Miss_cleo Post Number: 235 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 69.47.85.139 |
the amount of money spent on a district means nothing when the scores are crap, buildings are run down and the student to teacher ratio is high. I feel for Detroit schools, I really do. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1759 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.68 |
There are three huge flaws in your logic: 1. Some Detroit schools are at or above average. Some are exceptional. For example, many students from outside the district lie and cheat to get into Cass Tech. 2. One of the reasons that the schools get bad marks is because the students aren't performing, and that often has more to do with poverty and domestic unrest at home than what is or isn't happening during school. I'd expect that the people we are encoraging to move into the city do not have these problems. 3. Living in the city with your family does not mean that your kids have to go to DPS.
Regardless of whether or not the district is run well, it is more expensive to educate ELS, lead posioned, and poverty stricken children in ancient buildings than it is in other places. It is also more expensive to pay retirement benefits in a contracting district than in a stable or expanding one. Please remember that there are probably more schools (or at least school kids) in DPS than there are in the entire northern lower peninsula of the state. If you were to average all of the very rural districts in the middle of nowhere up there, you might be surprised what you'd find. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 2719 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 72.25.177.194 |
Jsmyers said: "....than one with a large number of kids in poverty and children of poor immigrants?" (referring to Detroit) If you study the history of Detroit, Jsmyers, you will find that early on, there were many thousands of poor immigrants. Yet somehow there was order in the schools, the kids were educated, and went on to found and/or work for some of the finest companies the world has ever known. There is a far deeper problem now, and vouchers/charters will begin to chip away at it. Teachers unions will fight to keep the status quo and beg to simply throw more money at it. I suspect that your last statement would prove to be yet another negative for Detroit - I'm guessing the kids in rural districts around Michigan are doing just fine - and better than kids in the D. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1763 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.68 |
Many are, but not all of them. I have spent a lot of time in some of those rural districts. Sometimes as a tutor. Large parts of rural America has many of the same problems that Urban America does, it just doesn't seem to be as culturally visible.
When this was in fact the case Karl, one didn't need an education to function in society, and a great many successful men went into the world with an 8th grade education. If you read my posts, you won't find any mention of solutions. I haven't been able to formulate a completely informed opinion about that. I just would like the discussion to be honest about what is currently happening now. There have been a number of previous posts that were not. | ||
Ron Member Username: Ron Post Number: 176 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 66.174.79.226 |
Karl, I agree that parents should have choice when it comes to education for thier children, what occurs is that the Charter schools are often filled with students with parents who are actively involved in their educations. Despite the district you are in, if parents are actively involved, then their children typically do well in school. The unfortunate result of this is that you end of with an entire school district full of at-risk youth. Very at-risk. That is what we as a society are left to deal with. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 822 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
There was a time when the dailies were written at an eighth grad level. Now, an editor will "admonishmentalize" [GP speak for "warn"] his reporters who write above the fifth or sixth grade level. An eighth grade education some half century ago meant more back then, not so today. Because of the influence of computers or lousy education systems, many people today have difficulty reading text-based material. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 2721 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 207.200.116.139 |
Jsmyers, You make good points, and from a better position to know than I. I'm speculating on rural scores as I don't know, but would defer to your tutoring experience until either of us posts firm #'s. While I agree that one was able to function early in the 20th century w/8th grade education, if one stuck it out thru HS/college I believe the disciplines were better back then. That being said, other issues affecting students today seem overwhelming in some schools that were not issues 40-60-80 years ago. | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2211 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.14.135.95 |
I'm surprised that no one has commented on the fact yet that guaranteeing an entity a fixed amount of money from year to year, without requiring any accountability for how it's spent, is only a train wreck that hasn't occurred yet. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 83 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 64.131.176.232 |
The Detroit high school that I attended outperformed Charlevoix High by nearly 2 percentage points... Even though my high school is 4 times the size of Charlevoix High School. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 2726 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 207.200.116.139 |
Mcp001 - In so many words, it's been discussed here several times, generally under "vouchers" or similar. Your point is valid - if you want what you've got, keep on doing what you've been doing. Vouchers aren't the cure-all, but would be a huge step in the right direction. The fact that they're fought on all fronts by the NEA is probably most telling of all. That union has a stranglehold on the Democratic Party, and Detroit worships at that alter. | ||
Zulu_warrior Member Username: Zulu_warrior Post Number: 2872 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.251.27.41 |
JSMyers forgot the fourth flaw in the aforementioned logic. That Michigan schools outside of Detroit are actually superior. Wrong. Only a few are.... | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 2730 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 207.200.116.139 |
Zulu makes a good point - something that public/internet accountibility and uniform testing brings forth. And lest we forget, vouchers can/should be used in public schools also, allowing parents to pick and direct their tax dollars to the best that they can find for their kids - who, after all, get just one chance to pass thru the K-12 system. | ||
Jdkeepsmiling Member Username: Jdkeepsmiling Post Number: 102 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 208.50.91.234 |
I would also like to chime in with something that critics of public schools in large cities often forget. That is the fact that the district is dealing with an aging infrastructure, which often comes with a slew of problems. The same thing will happen to Canton in 75 years when everyone has moved out and they are faced with a oversupply of classroom space and three or four aging high schools. I am just using this to point out that regardless of everything else, they would still need more money for just upkeep. | ||
Themax Member Username: Themax Post Number: 17 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 69.246.123.118 |
Charter schools was Engler's way to destroy the MEA's political force; any educational benefit was purely coincidental. Teachers have always asked for smaller classes in their contracts. All that charter schools do is further divide us as a community and a nation. There are so many things wrong with Detroit society. Blaming schools for the kids who go to them and the families they come from is disingenuous. Around 18 years ago, Detroit was second in the nation in IV drug use. I wonder how it stands today. I feel for Detroit teachers. | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 69 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
Maybe we should make all of Oakland, Macomb and Wayne county like one big city by supporting regional taxes. Then we can get all the rich suburbanites to pay for the Detroit schools since the state won't pay. This is exactly what mass transit advocates and DARTA supporters want to do to save the Detroit Department of Transportation. So, why not do this with the schools also. we all know that education is most important and a good mass transit system can work to benefit all of southeast Michigan. On August 8, 2006 we have a choice. We can vote YES and let our state cut even more money from mass transit or we can vote NO and let our leaders in Lansing know that enough is enough and it's time to stop slashing transit money from those who can least afford to pay more taxes. Your choice. | ||
Ray Member Username: Ray Post Number: 712 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 68.42.133.85 |
What's actually a great paradox is that 25 year old Americans today are the most highly educated generation in history. I recall (may be wrong) that at the start of WWII only 9% of the country had any college education at all. Today, it's much higher. It seems like the K-12 public school system is doing badly in some districts, but that post-secondary education and employer training is picking up the slack. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 2953 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 72.25.177.194 |
Another message possibly relevant to Detroit: ALBANY'S SCHOOL TEST By DICK MORRIS June 19, 2006 -- The Legislature adjourns in the next few days, and the fate of education reform hangs in the balance. Under pressure from the teachers' union, lawmakers limited the number of charter schools in New York to 100, a cap that's now been reached. It's the special interests vs. the children - will legislators raise the cap? Nationwide, normal public schools aren't getting any better, despite a dramatic rise in funding. Something's wrong that money won't cure. Since 1990, almost 200,000 students in the fourth and eighth grades have taken proficiency tests in reading and math. In 15 years, reading scores are up just half a percent; math results, a mere 4 percent. Meanwhile, education spending has boomed: adjusted for inflation, from $7,143 per student in 1990 to an estimated $9,062 in 2005. The obstacles the teachers' union puts in the way of educational progress - opposition to merit-based pay, blind support for incompetent but tenured teachers, shackling principals with rigid work rules - doom our public schools to mediocrity. But charter schools work well. Consider a few facts about places where charters have gotten a fair shot. New York's 79 operating charter schools serve 22,000 students - and their records are better, often a great deal better, than public schools' as a whole. In 8th grade, two-thirds of New York charters outperformed the other schools in their district in English and in Math. In the 4th grade, three-quarters did better than other schools in the district in math; 51 percent excelled in English. Where public-school students statewide posted a 9 percent gain in proficiency from 2004 to 2005, charter kids gained 17 percent. In California, 4th-grade students at charters are 8.5 percent more likely to be proficient in reading, and 5 percent more likely to make the grade in math, than their conventional-school counterparts. In Washington, D.C., whose charter schools get one-third less funding than regular schools, charter students are still 12 percent more likely to be proficient in reading and 13 percent in math than standard-school students, a recent Harvard study found. In Michigan, 38 percent of charter students met state math standards in tests, vs. only 31 percent of all students; in reading, 63 percent of charter kids vs. 60 percent of all students. Teachers unions wage a nonstop campaign of disinformation about charter schools. But the data - from the Center for Educational Reform - don't lie. When charter schools get funding comparable to of other public schools, and when they can draw their students from the general student population, charter performance leaves traditional schools in the dust. The message to Albany: Raise the cap. | ||
English Member Username: English Post Number: 505 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.248.13.207 |
Anyone who thinks that kids in rural and suburban schools are okay and immune from educational failure needs to go read Thomas L. Friedman's The World Is Flat. Even most of our best kids don't perform on par with China or India... We're doomed. | ||
Pjazz Member Username: Pjazz Post Number: 40 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 69.212.57.249 |
These politcally motivated threads on this site get really old. We went from opinion on education to once again bashing Detroit. It was mentioned that spending increased at DPS in 2004. All this happened while DPS was still under state control. | ||
Romanized Member Username: Romanized Post Number: 211 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 71.4.97.100 |
I love how people complain about funding, and when someone notes that DPS gets more per student than most places, they rattle off a list of things designed to show why money doesn't matter in a students success. So which is it? Are we graduating ill-prepared students due to lack of funding, or due to a litany of societal factors. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 900 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
On a constant-dollar basis, Detroit is spending three times per student than it did in 1960. Or at least that's how it's reported. 45 years ago the vast majority of Detroiters graduated from high school, whereas only about 30% graduate today. If true, does that make an argument for more or for less funding? Remember that any increase in funding almost all goes toward salaries of teachers whose unions strongly bankrolled the current governor's two campaigns... | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 3020 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 72.25.177.194 |
Democrats boarding the school choice train by Clint Bolick June 23, 2006 The Arizona legislature’s 2006 session set a record for school choice legislation by enacting four new or expanded programs allowing disadvantaged children to attend private schools. Even more remarkable: The programs were enacted with a Democratic governor. School choice has experienced unprecedented legislative success over the past two years for a few underlying reasons. First and foremost, the school choice movement is acting smarter. Advocates are pursuing small programs addressing specific problems that are difficult for politicians to oppose. Another factor inducing a more tolerant attitude toward school choice among Democrats is that they are running out of viable alternatives. The U.S. Department of Education reported recently that three million children are attending schools that have failed to satisfy minimal state standards for at least six consecutive years. For Democrats who truly believe in social justice, that presents a terrible dilemma: Either forcing children to remain in schools where they have little prospect for a bright future, or enlisting private schools in a rescue mission. Democrats are increasingly unwilling to forsake the neediest children. Arizona is evidence of the possible. Although she could have allowed them to become law without her signature, as she did with the corporate scholarship tax credits, Gov. Napolitano yesterday became the first Democrat to sign new voucher programs into law. For children with disabilities or in foster care, how the bill became law is of little moment; but by affixing her imprimatur, Ms. Napolitano conveyed powerful symbolic evidence that the future for school choice is bright. Clint Bolick is president and general counsel of the Alliance for School Choice and a Goldwater Institute senior fellow. A version of this article appeared in the Wall Street Journal. | ||
Paulmcall Member Username: Paulmcall Post Number: 742 Registered: 05-2004 Posted From: 68.40.119.216 |
What works for the kids and is affordable should be a top priority. Pretty soon there won't be much of a base for supporting any education if they don't get this mess straightened out. |
