  Kathleen Member Username: Kathleen Post Number: 1340 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.14.122.57 |
From today's Free Press: Kilpatrick wants Ford Auditorium razed for theater Detroit Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick has set a goal of razing the shuttered Ford Auditorium on downtown's Hart Plaza and building a Chene Park-type music amphitheater in its place. ..." http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20060526/BUS INESS04/605260429/1017/BUSINES S | ||
623kraw Member Username: 623kraw Post Number: 910 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.41.224.200 |
I can't believe what I am reading. 50 million to tear down Chene Park and Ford Auditorium? Someone tell me what is wrong with either facility and why either facility can't be CONVERTED to what is needed? | ||
Machoken Member Username: Machoken Post Number: 1258 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 207.145.38.104 |
Can skipper's rule be applied to demolition? If so, skipper's rule! | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1596 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 68.248.6.29 |
YESSSSSS. Tear that shit down! I'm okay with building the new Chene Park there, because it would definitly be used, and would often be used in conjunction with Hart Plaza/Campus Martius festivals. The best use would be retail with residences above, IMO. I'm sure if KK moves foward with the demo, and then consults with the DEGC, we could have something like this. | ||
Chris_rohn Member Username: Chris_rohn Post Number: 243 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 69.220.233.37 |
what about parking? ;) | ||
Genesyxx Member Username: Genesyxx Post Number: 508 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 71.159.22.4 |
I'm torn on it. Chene Park was minimally maintained, so the thought of there being a place closer to the city is a bit iffy. There's no doubt that that's prime real estate, especially for ANOTHER soundstage (Pyramid, Pyramid, Pyramid). I wonder if I can still park my boat along the river to get a free concert. | ||
Bvos Member Username: Bvos Post Number: 1461 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.238.170.51 |
I think this is great news. Ford Auditorium was obsolete the day it was completed. With the revitalization and increase in property values downtown and along the river front, the city really can't afford to have an unused parcel of land, especially in that prime location. Tear the crappy building down with it's crappy acoustics! It will also help to have a larger stage/venue for the Hart Plaza festivals. Just think of all the extra work they have to do to make it possible for folks to see performers when the bowl fills up at Hart Plaza. There's got to be a better way to do things than that. Hopefully the new design learns from the current limitations. | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 316 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 129.9.163.106 |
The city has been ignoring Ford auditorium for years now, renting the Fox for the type of events they used to stage at Ford. I wouldn't be sad to see it go, it was an acoustical nightmare, and the efforts to correct that problem took away it's 50's modern interior, to no avail. "twod be nice if private funds could be raised to move the Aeolian-Skinner pipe organ @ Ford into orchestra hall, if it's still there in one piece. The true pity of Ford is that the facilities for producing shows there were excellent--the hardware backstage and under the auditorium floor were so well thought out and executed. But, with a glut of good "golden age" auditoria in the area, I'd be more than willing to see Ford go. Bill Sr. is gonna be pissed! | ||
Aarne_frobom Member Username: Aarne_frobom Post Number: 26 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 162.108.2.222 |
After the pipe organ, who will get the Marshall Fredericks relief sculpture of transportation hardward that's on the lobby wall? Or have the scrappers got it already? | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 319 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 129.9.163.106 |
The scrappers probably got the metal out of the organ already. | ||
Pacypacy_ Member Username: Pacypacy_ Post Number: 46 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 136.181.195.84 |
Bvos QUOTE:Tear the crappy building down with it's crappy acoustics! It will also help to have a larger stage/venue for the Hart Plaza festivals. Just think of all the extra work they have to do to make it possible for folks to see performers when the bowl fills up at Hart Plaza. The "acoustics" at Hart Plaza are really great aren't they? I've never gotten rained on in Ford Auditorium, nor have I had a drunken bum sitting next to me in there either. They also do not sell those famous "ethnic corndogs" that showed up at every ethnic festival.....Many posters on here really decry the destruction of old buildings and landmarks, why should Ford be any different? | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 5945 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 208.27.111.125 |
I hate it when I agree with Pacy completely. Ford Auditorium, like the City-County Building, was a great contribution to the "International Style." Had it been maintained, it would be as architecturally important today as Toronto City Hall. Orchestra Hall is great. But if it were struck by lightening today, we have a number of other venues from that era that could replace it tomorrow. But once we lose Ford Auditorium, that'll be it for our stock of theaters built in the International Style. | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 1071 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.14.122.204 |
Your argument holds water only if you think that International Style buildings are worth keeping; if you think that the architectural style has merit. Many people do not believe that it does. | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 5946 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 208.27.111.125 |
Ford Auditorium was a perfect example of the architecture of its day. That in itself makes it important, even though that style is no longer in vogue. | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 320 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 129.9.163.106 |
Itsjeff--if you can convince the broke-ass COD to save it and use it, great. Can you name one auditorium built after WWII that wasn't a complete acoustical joke? (the few sucess stores of the last ten years excepted)The international style is wonderful, but if a building doesn't function for the purpose it was meant to, what do you do with it? | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 764 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 68.60.177.56 |
It's too bad they couldn't use Ford for something,but not for music. It was famous for its badness. I saw Tommy Tune there once (yes I am a dork), I had front row seats, he was looking me right in the eye, the sound was coming from somewhere around my right ear. Insane. Bouncing notes all over the room. Chene Park,though. Let it be. | ||
Tigersfan9 Member Username: Tigersfan9 Post Number: 35 Registered: 03-2005 Posted From: 64.118.151.178 |
PRESS RELEASES FOR RELEASE: Feb. 13, 2003 MEDIA CONTACTS: S.R. Boland (313) 224-3428 DEPARTMENT CONTACT: Marilyn L. Wheaton (313) 224-3470 FREDERICKS SCULPTURES ON THE MOVE Three unique sculptures by the late, world-renowned sculptor Marshall M. Fredericks - in place since 1956 at Ford Auditorium - are being moved from the now-vacant facility. The sculptures, affixed to the interior walls of the auditorium's main lobby, will soon be on their way to temporary storage until they can take their places inside new, more appropriate structures. The largest of the three Fredericks sculptures will occupy a prominent position in the planned addition to the Detroit Historical Museum, while the two smaller works will be installed in the new Detroit High School for Fine and Performing Arts, now under construction near Orchestra Hall. The large sculpture, on the auditorium lobby's north wall, is 120 feet long and made of formed, brazed, welded and polished aluminum and brass. Representing, according to the sculptor, the "spiritual, intellectual, mechanical and industrial might of Detroit," it tells a story, beginning on the left side of the sculpture with the "creation of the universe" and the "forces and products of nature." The left side includes motifs such as natural elements, celestial bodies, animals, plants, and minerals. On the far right side of the sculpture, Fredericks presented concepts representing the "skills and intelligence of man." In the central portion of the work, nature and man come together to depict "the might of industrial progress," according to Fredericks. Two smaller metal sculptures - more lighthearted in tone - complement the large work. One includes clowns and a circus parade, and the other features a ballerina with clown musicians and a complete orchestra. "I feel that the new locations for these wonderful works of art will be perfect," said Marilyn Wheaton, Director of the Cultural Affairs Department. She said that interior spaces in the sculptures' new homes would be designed specifically to showcase the artworks. The three sculptures were commissioned by the Ford family and Ford dealerships, and donated to the City when Ford Auditorium was built. Christopher Fredericks, the sculptor's son, said that the pieces are important Marshall Fredericks works. "Those sculptures were fabricated by my father's own hands; the metal was shaped and pounded by him over a period of three years. The pieces are remarkable and critical to his legacy. "My family appreciates the fact that the City of Detroit took steps to preserve them. We're elated about their future placement; we feel that the Historical Museum and the new high school are perfect venues for the sculptures. To see them eventually lost would have been a tragedy." The sculptures will be de-installed and packed in special crates over a two- to three-week period by Fine Arts Services and Transportation. When the new buildings are ready - the High School for Fine and Performing Arts will open in fall 2004 and the Historical Museum addition will be completed in 2006 - the pieces will be cleaned, reinstalled and rededicated. Ultimately, the public will benefit, Wheaton said. "These sculptures deserve to be enjoyed by more people. In Ford Auditorium, because the building has been closed, they haven't been accessible. Not too far in the future, everyone will be able to appreciate them again." Wheaton added that two busts - of composers Franz Liszt and Frederic Chopin - were moved several weeks ago from Ford Auditorium, to the main Detroit Public Library building. The busts, not created by Fredericks, were donated to the City by civic organizations. Fredericks created many sculptures in the Detroit area. One of his best-known works is the famous Spirit of Detroit statue in front of the Coleman A. Young Municipal Center downtown. PR-03-28 ?? http://www.ci.detroit.mi.us/cc sd/releases/03releases/pr02133 3.htm | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 5947 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 208.27.111.125 |
I dispute that the acoustics at Ford were bad. Not perfect, like Orchestra Hall, but hardly "bad." The last time I was at Ford was to see Itzhak Perlman. I was in the cheap seats, but heard every note with perfect clarity. Regardless, since the orchestra and opera have their own venues now, the fact that the acoustics aren't perfect isn't as important. I can think of lots of uses for a restored Ford Auditorium: Hydroplane museum, Hockey Hall of Fame, rental for private occasions, arthouse movie theater, theatrical productions... (Message edited by itsjeff on May 26, 2006) | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1597 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 68.248.6.29 |
Honestly, who would do a rehab of FA? You are in the minority of people who like the style. I can respect that you like the style, just like I like 99.9% of things built pre-1940, but the fact is that the FA is unwanted, has sat vacant for years, and occupies some of the best land in the city. It is an eyesore of eyesores in a prominent location. Even if the acoustics were perfect: we can do much better, and like I said, most people don't care for the place, anyhow. Thanks for finding that info, Tigersfan. (Message edited by mackinaw on May 26, 2006) | ||
Crew Member Username: Crew Post Number: 967 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 146.9.52.47 |
Twenty years from now, the next generation of us will be shocked and horrified that we were stupid enough to tear down a fine example of mid 20th Century architecture. | ||
Crew Member Username: Crew Post Number: 968 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 146.9.52.47 |
Mackinaw, The same thing could have been said about the Old City Hall, Capitol Theater (Opera House), Madison-Lenox, Orchestra Hall, Book-Cadillac, Statler, etc. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1599 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 68.248.6.29 |
HELL NO. I'm not saying that the current idea of 'progress' is always the right thing to do. There is merit in architecture. You are proposing that, with time, we will all grow to like FA. That will not be the case. There shouldn't be this architectural relativism. We would be better off if we still had the places you mentioned. We will not be better off if we still have FA in 20 years. Gistok--where are you? | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 5948 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 208.27.111.125 |
Thank you, Crew. You may have punch and pie. | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 5949 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 208.27.111.125 |
You are in the minority of people who like the style. The public's tastes in archicture changes. Look at the Fisher Theater. Everyone loved the 1960s update. Until the 1980s. Also, people's opinions of Ford Auditorium will be influenced because it's a big wreck right now. Few people will recall it in its glory. | ||
Alexei289 Member Username: Alexei289 Post Number: 1161 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.61.183.223 |
unfortunatly, its really a single use building... you cant do anything with it but host events. Remember that Hart Plaza is home to the Hoedown, DEMF, and other large scale events... Having an apmitheater on a large scale RIGHT there is going to be a real big draw for these events and others like it. I think thats the idea kwame had in mind when he wanted to build something THAT close to chene park. They both host seperate events... I dont think they would really be in competition. Lets put it this way... Imagine if the Ford Autitorium could be used for the DEMF?  | ||
Alexei289 Member Username: Alexei289 Post Number: 1162 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.61.183.223 |
O ya... i might as well add that as a lover of all Pre 1940s architecture... the FA is Butt Fugly... | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1730 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.68 |
There are lot of good points being tossed around here. I can't say I disagree with anyone, but we've got to step back and think of the big picture. We've got two facilities of limited use (Chene because of its remote location and Ford because of the other theatres and auditoriums that have replaced it and its function). One of them would be extremely useful if it were recreated in the location of the other. While there are special things about Chene, and it always sucks to loose a significant building, it seems to me that this is what is best for the city in the long run. When it comes to the international style, I'm frankly more concerned about Cobo arena. This facility serves a niche that will not exist if it is demo'd for an expansion of the convention center. Now I wonder if Ford could be deconstructed and put back up somewhere else. There is room on Woodward across from the State and the Fox. What might it be used for? Is there any need for the space at all? Would it fill a niche, or would it compete directly with existing venues? (BTW - the reason that I would like to see the UA redone is that there aren't many venues that size and configuration nearby.) | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 5951 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 208.27.111.125 |
It is ugly because it is in disrepair. If it were restored, with landscaping and proper exterior lighting, it would compliment both CAYMC and Veteran's Memorial and take its rightful place as a part of our Civic Center. | ||
Spartacus Member Username: Spartacus Post Number: 114 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 209.114.251.65 |
For the sake of argument let's say that it has some architectural signficance and it could be made to look good. Who cares if nobody wants to use it? | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1732 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.68 |
Correction/clarrification: The UA is basically the same number of seats as the State. But I believe it is acoustically much better and is more square, as opposed to the states long and tall balcony. http://www.cinematreasures.org/theater/241/ http://www.cinematreasures.org/theater/1934/ Can anybody confirm or expand on this? I agree Itsjeff. In many ways, FA is ugly like the Book Caddy is ugly. But could it be used? BTW - How many seats? Maybe it can be made into a convertable, for summer events just roll the top down. (Message edited by jsmyers on May 26, 2006) | ||
Kathleen Member Username: Kathleen Post Number: 1341 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 140.244.107.151 |
If Ford Auditorium is replaced with an amphitheatre, it appears that Chene Park will go away. From the Freep article (last paragraph).... "If the plan comes about, Jackson said the current Chene Park probably would be demolished to make way for nearby new development." | ||
Pacypacy_ Member Username: Pacypacy_ Post Number: 47 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 136.181.195.84 |
itsjeff QUOTE: Ford Auditorium was a perfect example of the architecture of its day. That in itself makes it important, even though that style is no longer in vogue. I agree with itsjeff. Can you imagine someone saying "wow, that Guggenhiem Museum sure is ugly and out-dated, I wish the city would tear it down", or "man, that art modern design of Fallingwater sure is an eyesore". | ||
Kathleen Member Username: Kathleen Post Number: 1342 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 140.244.107.151 |
Thanks, Tigersfan9, for posting the press release about the Marshall Fredericks sculptures. Does anyone know whether the two slated to go into the Detroit High School for Fine and Performing Arts made it there? I assume that the remaining sculpture is in storage indefinitely as there's no telling when or if the Historical Museum addition will be built. | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 5952 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 208.27.111.125 |
For the sake of argument let's say that it has some architectural signficance and it could be made to look good. Who cares if nobody wants to use it? Okay, first, if people will go to Cobo Arena, they'll anywhere. That said, with some vision and money, Ford Auditorium certainly could be turned into a venue that people would want to visit. If not as a theater, than as something else, like my suggestions above. If Skulker were alive, I'm sure he could shout out a dozen viable uses for Ford. | ||
Eric Member Username: Eric Post Number: 464 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 35.11.210.161 |
Were not talking Lafayette Park here I just don't think FA is that great of an example of the style. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2163 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.6.59 |
OK, this may surprise some of you but.... as much as I don't like Ford Auditorium accoustically or esthetically, there's one thing that Katherine Clarkson (former Preservation Wayne Executive Director) once said in the past that keeps popping into my head.... "at some point in the future, we're gonna have to put some of those ugly mall shoebox theatres onto the National Register for Historic Preservation".... And that has me wondering about Ford Auditorium. Yes it is out of style, taste wise, and yes I don't care for it... but would it at some point in the future have been one of the "rare survivors" of mid 20th century theatre architecture (regardless of accoustics), had it been saved? This whole moving of the Chene Park amphitheatre also bothers me a little. What a waste of rare city dollars to rip it down only to rebuild it a mile downstream. When I think of the money being spent on such an undertaking, I think of money that could have been used to restore or refurbish something else... And I wonder just how Hart plaza is going to look with all that additional stepped concrete. The 5,000 seat amphitheatre at Chene park is quite a presence at its' current site. Will the new amphitheatre be a large dominating presence in Hart Plaza, blocking out a large chunk of waterfront views from Jefferson? Will the new amphitheatre have 5,000 seats as well. Will it complement the waterfront of the Civic Center, or be the 500 pound gorilla? It's too bad that GM didn't buy Ford Auditorium and use the existing building shell as meeting rooms, classrooms, and smaller auditorium spaces. And then there is the Ford family... are they on board with this decision? Or will they take their money elsewhere? How is city government handling this delicate issue? Again, I don't care for Ford Auditorium, and I won't miss it once its' gone... but there are other considerations in this decision.... | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 5954 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 208.27.111.125 |
If not an exemplary example, then a typical one. Either way, it's worth saving. And, post-modernism being what it is, if a new auditorium were to be built today, I don't think it would end up looking too terribly different from Ford Auditorium. Ford Auditorium would fit right in next to most of Detroit's newest buildings, like the Max or anything at Wayne State. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1733 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.68 |
I agree with you...but.... Will that money help the city's greater good? Would it be in the city's best interest to have that use in Hart Plaza? Would it help foot traffic and the business climate to use the UA or the National, or build a new venue somewhere else downtown? Will it help Hart Plaza function for festivals to have a large amphitheater? I think that this is a case of the architecture being good but not the use. But I have an idea! Lets build a barge and then slide FA onto it, it can be the worlds largest floating performance venue. It can get towed all over the Great Lakes to be used as needed! But seriously, if it could be moved (or taken apart and reconstructed), a good spot might be the big parking lot behind the Museam of African American History, the Detroit Science Center, and the DIA. Those organizations might be able to help program the space (as well as WSU and CCS). | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1734 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.68 |
How many forumers have been to Summer fest? http://www.summerfest.com/ It occurs to me that Hart Plaza with an amphitheater would be a lot like this, except smaller. I think an amphitheater would be a great thing for Hart. | ||
Psip Member Username: Psip Post Number: 1084 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 68.60.45.70 |
Tonight on the 5:30PM News, WJBK Fox2 will air a story about the past of Ford Aud. | ||
Eastsidedog Member Username: Eastsidedog Post Number: 424 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 12.47.224.7 |
Itsjeff, I like the International Style. It seems the issue with FA is that, because it's a theater, it lacks the trademark International Style large windows facing the street. This makes it look a bit hulking. But overall it has some nice clean minimal lines.  But since the International Style has totally fallen out of vogue, it seems unlikely that the FA will be reused any time soon. Probably the only way to get that piece of the riverfront in use in the next few years would be to raze the site and build new. As usual in a rush to rebuild we destroy what can be reused. The main problem is that the city won't sell it and let it be used for anything but a premier sort of theater. If the building was privately owned and not worth much, it might have been converted to some low budget use years ago, like a dollar show, porno theater or low-budget rock venue. | ||
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa Post Number: 847 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 208.39.170.90 |
An outdoor amphitheatre next to a church. This city amuses me. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1736 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.68 |
The church is over 500 ft away. The bridge plaza is in between. | ||
Eastsidedog Member Username: Eastsidedog Post Number: 426 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 12.47.224.7 |
It's interesting how churches never go anywhere as their surroundings constantly change. It's like they are trapped in a timewarp forever. Most big city downtowns have the old churches next all sorts of shiny glass and steel skyscrapers, a really good example is the gargantuan parking structure going up along 375 by that little old Italian church. They look so ridiculous next to one another! | ||
Spacemonkey Member Username: Spacemonkey Post Number: 25 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 63.102.87.27 |
Tear it all down. | ||
Spartacus Member Username: Spartacus Post Number: 115 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 209.114.251.65 |
ItsJeff: I'm pretty sure that Skulker thinks that the best use is to tear it down and move Chene park there. From August 7, 2005: "Blow out Ford Auditorium, replace with a new Chene Park and convert the existing Chene Park in to an expansion of Tricentennial Park....Ford Auditorium is not in Hart Plaza. The new Chene Amphitheter would go in the place of the now vacant Ford Auditorium and would not encroach on the existing Hart Plaza, allowing for free events at Hart Plaza simultaneous to ticketed events at the new Amphitheater. No problem there. As a bonus, if there is charged event, then the folks sitting outside the new Chene Park location would get to hear concerts for free." Does anyone really think that Ford Auditorium will ever become a viable theater? The DSO hated it. It's been sitting there a long time, it seems to me that if it were going to happen it would of happened by now. I'm all for preservation, but you have to pick your battles. Of course, if the more radical preservationists had their way the theater would have never been built because I'm sure an historic warehouse was destroyed to make way for it. | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 695 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.42.176.123 |
If Skulker were here, he'd probably say the best use for Ford Auditorium is as a target for his wrecking ball. It is a building after all... | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2164 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.3.230 |
Eastsidedog.... I hate to say it, but you are wrong about Mariner's Church! It was moved in 1955 from Woodward south of Jefferson to its' present location. The original Mariner's was only the church building itself. When they moved it they built a new bell tower for the church. So while the church goes back to 1849, the bell tower only goes back to 1955. | ||
Hornwrecker Member Username: Hornwrecker Post Number: 1207 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 63.41.8.98 |
Mariner's also had ground floor retail originally, I think it was a grocery. | ||
Rrl Member Username: Rrl Post Number: 511 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 71.213.228.212 |
Yep, HR, I believe you are correct. From WSU Archives:  | ||
Bobj Member Username: Bobj Post Number: 718 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.40.89.238 |
I always heard that they had ground floor retail to help keep their Church going since they ministered to sailors who were passing through that were probably not big givers. | ||
Mikem Member Username: Mikem Post Number: 2559 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.43.15.105 |
| ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 5957 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.242.213.167 |
Does anyone really think that Ford Auditorium will ever become a viable theater? The DSO hated it. It's been sitting there a long time, it seems to me that if it were going to happen it would of happened by now. No. No one thinks that Ford will ever become viable. I'm just making the argument that with some vision and funding, it could be. If the Ford family had arranged for any other type of ownership - private or a conservancy - Ford Auditorium would have been maintained and in use today. Of course it will eventually come down, but that will be no less a tragedy than losing the Madison Lenox. Maybe even moreso, since it'll go without a peep from Detroit's "preservation community." | ||
Eastsidedog Member Username: Eastsidedog Post Number: 427 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 69.212.122.179 |
Itsjeff, give the preservationists a little credit. When folks proposed tearing down the shopping center in Lafayette Park, International Style fans and most importantly local residents fought to get it into the hands of a developer. It was ultimately saved and the badly needed renovations were made (although the loss of the small bank building for more parking was a tragedy). Now it is home to some good retail and looks great. Let's hope enough folks come out fighting for the Ford Auditorium. | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 5958 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.242.213.167 |
Maybe, but Lafayette Park had a viable, instant use. Retail in a neighborhood that needed it. Unless there's a "Here's how we can use Ford Auditorium" scheme, it'll continue to sit there. | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 5960 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.242.213.167 |
  | ||
Psip Member Username: Psip Post Number: 1085 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 68.60.45.70 |
For a fairly indepth discussion about the Civic Auditorium, see: https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/mes sages/23585/48201.html | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 3405 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.79.88.138 |
This statement struck me;
Remote from ??? Consider DTE, Freedom Hill, Meadowbrook, etc. How is a venue a mile or so from the heart of the CBD, remote, especially with a sea oparking around it. I'm trying not to cause problems for those involved in the inception of Chene Park so I have to be a bit vague. There was a division at the very beginning of Chene Park within the Dept. of Parks and Recreation about whom the venue would service and what types of of entertainment would be booked. Some saw it as a regional venue that would compete with the aforementioned venues and others saw it as only a City oriented venue offering only entertainment they perceived the residents wanted. I'll allow you to decide what was the outcome. My favourite personal anecdote about Chene Park: In 1993 there was the NIGHT OF CLASSICAL JAZZ with Sir Roland Hanna and the DSO to honour several of Detroit's international Jazz greats. Having been involved with some of the early Chene Park in my capacity of photographer, I was given VIP tickets. I took my Mom and my 79 year old aunt from Chicago. They loved the fancy box lunches and watching all of us chatting with each other. The concert began, with the background of the river filled with boats, and was incredible. At some point my aunt leaned over to me and said, "I wish we had something like this in Chicago." I don't think I could ever be so proud of my City. BTW I agree with Itsjeff. The Civic Center was designed for its era therefore its place in history is as relevant as anything that preceded it. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3798 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 24.11.154.56 |
Jeff, The Ford Auditorium isn't being torn down for a parking lot, which is a huge difference, IMO. I could have grudingly supported the demolition of the M-L if something use for the land (besides parking) was already in the wings. | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 1074 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.14.122.204 |
"...a really good example is the gargantuan parking structure going up along 375 by that little old Italian church. They look so ridiculous next to one another!" Ah, but imagine back when the I-375 service drive was Hastings Street and that little Italian church was right up against storefronts, houses, and bars! | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1012 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
The best thing about Ford Aud was the pipe organ and the artwork and since both were taken out and put in storage, tear Ford Aud down. It is not a great place to see any kind of concert, and how much use is there for a lecture hall of that size. If it was being turned into a poorly paved parking lot like the M-L I woould say save it, but an amphitheatre would be much more useful, seeing how popular Hart Plaza festivals are. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2165 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.105.195 |
What all of you don't realize is that this isn't the first time they planned on rebuilding the amphitheatre..... Back when they first built Chene Park (circa 1980?)... they built a much smaller amphitheatre (3,000 seats) and built up a smaller hillside with a decent sized lagoon on the landward side, with trees and landscaping. And when they were finished with this nice riverfront jewel..... Someone decided that the amphitheatre wasn't big enough. So in the late 1980's they ripped up the park, ripped out a bunch of trees, made the lagoon much smaller, tore out landscaping, made the hill larger, rebuilt the seating area, and put up the tent structure. $$$$ Now they want to tear it all up again, just so that they can move it one mile downstream.... I am glad that Detroit has all this money to waste building a riverfront amphitheatre for the 3rd time in 25 years!! Do you think that they will get it right this time? | ||
Bibs Member Username: Bibs Post Number: 495 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
If you look at this site from an arial view point, you will realize that it would be a great location for an expansion of the tunnel. Very stategic piece of property. The Ambassador Bridge Co had a little promo about 6 or 9 months ago. The graphic showed an expanded tunnel entrance on the current site of Ford Autorium. Perhaps, the tunnel entrance will be expanded. I would love to see Ford auditorium reused or torn down to expanded Hart Plaza. Also, get ride of the elevated landscape section next to Mariners church. I would love to know what they were thinking when they built it. It only seems to break up the area, block pedestrian traffic and collect trash. Is there a purpose for it? That's where Jiffy Hoffa is buried! Please dig it up and hall it away! Far far away! | ||
Bearinabox Member Username: Bearinabox Post Number: 17 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 69.209.171.248 |
Wouldn't a tunnel expansion be an even bigger waste of that land than Ford Auditorium? I thought we were trying to treat our riverfront as an asset these days... | ||
Noggin Member Username: Noggin Post Number: 62 Registered: 09-2004 Posted From: 69.241.253.36 |
Why don't they tear it down and replace it with a Burger King like they were going to do to Orchestra Hall. It would make great irony. | ||
Fastcarsfreedom Member Username: Fastcarsfreedom Post Number: 46 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 70.53.99.61 |
When Ford Auditorium goes (it seems likely to me that it will)--it will be a sorry day for architectural preservation. To call the F.A. ugly, and to say that most people find the International Style "ugly" is nothing short of complete ignorance. "Internationalists" like Pei, van der Rohe and Detroit's Yamasaki are regarded as icons in the architectural community. Think of all the architectural treasures of the past that have been lost because their style was no longer in vogue. For those who celebrated (as it should be) the savior of Orchestra Hall, you should recall that there was a time that it was considered ugly and disposable too. Tear down the FA, and your educated children will be asking why you did it 25 years from now. | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 3407 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.79.88.138 |
I find it ironic many on this forum lament the loss of the form of architecture that is referred to as Googie, that 50's style of coffee shops, drive-ins, and other commercial buildings, yet find FA "Ugly". Judging from the many postcards in my collection, the FA was considered to be one of the "Crown Jewels" of the City's post-war 1950-60's building spree. | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 1618 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 69.209.153.202 |
One thing that people are forgetting about Chene Park is that in its current location and function it interferes with the new plans for housing along the river. People buying $300,000 condos along the river are not going to want an amphitheater next to their homes, especially when they come home from a long day of work. Think about how often people living near Freedom Hill complained about the noise. Relocating a Chene Park-type amphitheatre on the FA site makes sense if the city wants to have this kind of venue along the river. Personally, I would rather see a hotel like Hilton's Garden Inn go on the FA site. This area needs some year round foot traffic and a hotel would provide this activity. | ||
Erikd Member Username: Erikd Post Number: 634 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.242.214.106 |
I will give Ford Auditorium my first ever "tear that schitt down" vote. As a strong supporter of historic preservation, I rarely advocte demolition over reuse, but the demo of FA is an exception to the rule for a number of reasons: 1. Unlike many of the other buildings torn down over the years, the demo of FA won't result in a vacant lot or a surface parking lot. Tearing down FA to make way for an expansion of Hart Plaza facilities is a very good use for this land. 2. Unlike many of the other buildings torn down over the years, FA has very little potential for adaptive reuse. Downtown Detroit is filled with old buildings that are well suited for conversion into residential, hotel, office, or entertainment uses. This isn't the case with FA. 3. To expand on my last point, one of the big reasons that FA isn't a good candidate for reuse is because it wasn't very good when it was new. There are other 50's era theatres that were well done and worthy of preservation, but FA is not one of them. 4. One of the biggest reasons for saving old buildings is to preserve the craftsmanship, materials, quality construction, and artistic ornamentation found in these structures. Buildings like the Guardian, Fisher, Fox, Book Cadillac, etc. are not replaceable due to the incredible cost of materials and skilled labor. As one of the posters above pointed out, a brand new theatre constructed today probably wouldn't be much different than FA. ------------------------------ -- There are few, if any, reasons to save Ford Auditorium. It doesn't make financial sense, the land would be better used as a result of demolition, the building is not on par with similar structures constructed in the same style during the same time period, the materials and quality of construction are easily repaceable and not remarkable, and the building lacks the historical significance of Detroit's other performance spaces. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 10129 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 24.12.55.203 |
Spoken like a true playa. | ||
Alexei289 Member Username: Alexei289 Post Number: 1165 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.61.183.223 |
"...a really good example is the gargantuan parking structure going up along 375 by that little old Italian church. They look so ridiculous next to one another!" I go to that church... Holy Family... You wouldnt believe what they were offered for the church and the parking lot.. you would shit your pants what they offered for just the parking lot... they were going to double the size of the blue cross building about 2 years ago... or atleast toying with it.. The powers that be in that church however did a great job at shutting that offer down... and i am so glad they did, I will take god over a parking lot anyday.. lets just say they made them an offer they couldnt refuse ... | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 1076 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.14.122.204 |
Alexei, isn't that church historically the home parish of the Tocco and Giacalone families? Hmmm. | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 1077 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.14.122.204 |
"I find it ironic many on this forum lament the loss of the form of architecture that is referred to as Googie, that 50's style of coffee shops, drive-ins, and other commercial buildings, yet find FA 'Ugly'." Googie is delightfully tacky. It's tongue-in-cheek... whimsical... a big ha-ha. It's nightmarish angles, neon, and crass, screaming signage. It's a celebration of declasse American taste and commercialism. It's as fun as a pink lawn flamingo in someone's front yard. International Style, though in the same architectural family as Googie, is boring. It's repetitive, unornamented, and mundane. (Fans of the style will say "it's clean and functional.") Now, Bauhaus, from which International Style sprang, that's pretty interesting. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2167 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.3.71 |
I have to respectfully disagree with you Royce. I think that those complaining about noise near their homes around Freedom Hill have been living in suburban "solitude" for over 20 years, until now. But a riverfront setting is an URBAN setting. With the amphitheatre facing south towards the river, noise levels shouldn't be too bad. People south of Freedom Hill are the ones complaining the most, since that amphitheatre also faces south. And those homeowners tend be older folks who find the loud rock music not to their liking. Also, I think that urban home dwellers are more prone to accept the noises and sounds of the city. I doubt you will find many retirees who go to bed at 9PM buying into rivertown living. And besides folks buying lofts or condos near Chene Park would know what they're getting into. Plus the younger demographics of these new rivertown folks would tend to be more "in tune" with the sound of the music that may filter northward (jazz and rock). I think that the city has better ways to spend $50 million than on the 3rd amphitheatre in 25 years. They could spend it on much needed improvements to Belle Isle for example. (Message edited by Gistok on May 27, 2006) | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 3410 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.79.97.93 |
Sorry but that argument is as futile as buying or building next to active train tracks, then bitching about the noise made by the trains. | ||
Billpdx Member Username: Billpdx Post Number: 1 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 198.107.48.11 |
I am surprised to hear so many people saying 'the international style is out of vogue'. In my experience I have noticed quite the opposite... Within the past decade, mid century modern design has gotten increasingly popular. This is reflected in the increased demand for modern-designed 50's and 60's homes, the resurgence of interest and respect for 50's designers such as Charles Eames and Mies Van der Rohe, and even the popularity of retail stores like Ikea and certain product lines from Target. While I understand why some people might not care for a particular style, I personally find the design of the Ford Auditorium beautiful. It is not even a 'run of the mill' international design - it really looks spectacular. I fear that demolishing The Ford Auditorium at this point would be akin to the razing of prominent prewar buildings as late as the 1970's. (Which pretty much all locales are guilty of) Essentially, it almost lasts long enough to re-appreciated by the public, but loses to the wrecking ball about 5 years to soon. I hope the City of Detroit can find a use for this building. If this Chene Park is such a nice place (sorry - although a Michigan native, I have lived in Portland, Oregon for the past 10 years, and am unfamiliar with many of these places) I think the City can find better ways to invest its money on its citizens than to spend it re-building things it already has. | ||
Ilovedetroit Member Username: Ilovedetroit Post Number: 2295 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 68.40.230.17 |
GOOD! It is ugly and of no historical value. | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 1621 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 69.209.153.202 |
Jams and Gistok, why is the mayor talking about tearing down Ford Auditorium and replacing it with a Chene Park-style amphitheater and not just talking about tearing down Ford Auditorium? Well, that's because the mayor wants to also tear down Chene Park. And why would he want to tear down Chene Park? Well, that's because the riverfront property in that area has become too valuable now that there are plans underway to open up the east riverfront with a state park, a riverwalk, and residential and commercial development, especially since the cement silos have been torn down. For residential developers Dave Bing and Jerome Bettis, the amphitheater is an impediment to their plans. People will not want to buy a condo unit in their developments if, for the summer months, they can't go out on their decks and enjoy a quiet evening because of the noise coming from the almost daily concerts at Chene Park. The mayor knows about this fact as well. Also, the land being used for parking at Chene Park has no doubt become more valuable as well. The city owns that land and they can make more money selling it to a developer to build residential or commerical developments than to keep it as a parking lot. Again, the mayor knows about this fact as well. Whether or not a Chene Park-type amphitheater replaces Ford Auditorium is problematic. However, Chene Park's amphitheater will disappear as more development, especially residential, goes up in the east riverfront. | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 5968 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.242.213.167 |
GOOD! It is ugly and of no historical value. Glass houses, dearie... | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2175 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.81.48 |
Royce.... Chene Park will be torn down and replaced by a park! Does that make sense?? When you say the land is way too valuable (for use as a park), then why does the Tricentennial Park footprint go way north of Atwater? Chene Park is south of Atwater. Does the city have an extra $40 million (for the sake of argument, $10 million to demo FA) just to make Bettis and Bing happy?? If Bettis and Bing put 1,000 residential units around what used to be Chene Park... the city would be subsidizing the project at the tune of $40,000 per condo.... ($40 million / 1,000 = $40,000). That sounds kinda extravagant. It makes way more sense to put commercial space around Chene Park as a buffer (like Stroh River place next door to Chene Park), than to spend $40 million to relocate Chene Park. Have you ever heard the residential folks in River Place next door (even those 55 condo's way up on top of their 6 story Parking Deck) complain about noise? If so, it hasn't been reported in the news services. Has anyone here on the forum heard of anyone complaining at River Place about noise from Chene Park? Had noise been an existing problem, then I might agree with you. But all we ever hear about when it comes to noise from a venue is Freedom Hill, and NOT Chene Park. (Message edited by Gistok on May 28, 2006) | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 1622 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 69.209.153.202 |
Gistok, living two blocks east and two blocks north of Chene Park, one doesn't have to deal with the kind of noise living right next to Chene Park would entail. The mayor is aware that residents would not live this close to a summer amphitheater. That's why the mayor has made the suggestion to move it to Ford Auditorium. It may not make sense to you but it makes sense to a lot of others, and their the ones making the decisions, not me. (Message edited by royce on May 28, 2006) | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 3413 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.79.100.94 |
If the land has become so valuable, if a developer decides he has a project for that site, why should the City be on the hook for the demolition, or even worse in my opinion demolition without a specific deal in place? Tax breaks or low-interest loans to the developers might be offered to sweeten the deal, but just to give a developer an additional $40million (using the above figure, as I have no idea what demo costs are) profit off the get go by the City paying for the demolition at the expense of other parts of the City's budget just doesn't make sense to me in this time of economic stress. As by no means am I an economist, I'm willing to listen to reasons why this is in the City's best interest to demolish for private developers, as opposed to better management and use of a facility that millions of City dollars have been spent already. I liken it to the many waterfront homes that were purchased in the region that were purchased only to be demolished and another home, usually, larger built on the property. Should the municipalities also subsidize that practice? | ||
Kilgore_south Member Username: Kilgore_south Post Number: 65 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 24.176.20.117 |
The best reason to tear that schitt down is to provide a beautiful unobstructed view of the riverfront as you drive down Woodward. I am a fan of the international style (love Lafayette Tower) but Ford Auditorium is just a turkey. Imagine standing in Campus Martius looking south down Woodeard and not having to see that black hole in the way. (Message edited by Kilgore_South on May 28, 2006) | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3801 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 24.11.154.56 |
Architectural significance (or insignificance) aside, there are quite a few excuses to justify the auditoriums removal from the riverfront. I see people aruging its architectural value, but another huge part of this is, I see, is its very valuable location. | ||
Naturalsister Member Username: Naturalsister Post Number: 664 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 70.8.206.235 |
Location definitely more valuable than said historical/architectural significance. later - naturalsister (Message edited by naturalsister on May 28, 2006) | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3802 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 24.11.154.56 |
Another HUGE thing missing for some arguing from the historic preservation perspective is that unlike the architectural styles of old, which are nearly entirely unfeasible today, the International Style of Architecture is STILL being constructed to day. It's not as if the city would be demolishing a priceless piece of architecture, especially since all of the materials, skills, and more importantly, money, are still being used today to create the International Style. The International Style is not yet to the point in its existence where you could consider its examples priceless or invaluable. Ford Auditorium could still be feasibly and exactly constructed today. The same could not be said for the Statler, Book-Cadillac (etc...). The whole point behind historic preservation is not only about sentiment, but the saving of buildings that would be nearly impossible to replicate in today's market. I can see someone arguing from sentiments sake. I can not, however, give into the argument that the Ford Auditorium is somehow just as invaluable as say the B-C, ML, Statler...It just doesn't fly. (Message edited by lmichigan on May 28, 2006) | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 5970 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.242.213.167 |
Because Ford Auditorium was allowed to rot, it has become an eyesore and is now of little value. Had been maintained, it would have the same architectural value as its contempories, D.C.'s Kennedy Center and NYC's Metropolitan Opera House at Lincoln Center. BTW, Ford Auditorium had an interesting dedication ceremony. Ed Sullivan inaugurated the theater by hosting his show there, with guests Johnny Carson, Rock Hudson and Elizabeth Taylor. (And "Jinx," the performing monkey.) On that show, William Clay Ford presented the keys to Mayor Cobo. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3805 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 24.11.154.56 |
Are you sure about those comparisons, Jeff? I don't think the thing looks horrible (inside or out) as some other's do, but I'm not quite so sure if they rank up there with the Met and Kennedy Center in the looks department. | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 5971 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.242.213.167 |
Ford is 10 years older than those buildings, but built in the same style. None of the buildings will win a beauty contest : ) | ||
Kilgore_south Member Username: Kilgore_south Post Number: 70 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 24.176.20.117 |
FA always reminds me of East German/Soviet architecture. They would build stuff like that when they were really trying to impress people, trying to show that they could do 50's mod too. But it always came out looking heavy-handed and depressing and cheap. Just like Ford Auditorium. | ||
Billpdx Member Username: Billpdx Post Number: 2 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 71.34.99.141 |
This whole thing is absolutely nuts... and a little sad. If you want to create a vibrant city, you want to add to what you have, not tear down already good things and replace them with others. That strategy will get you nowhere... Fast. I’ve got some questions: 1. How is it that instead of replacing a vacant lot, condemned building, or parking lot, Detroit is considering tearing down perfectly good city assets? Is there really no other available land left? 2. Ditto for the riverfront housing. Is the only available land on the river at this Chene Park? Wow. Detroit real estate must be booming. 3. Do people really think it’s a good idea for the city to destroy itself and spend a considerable amount of tax money doing it, for a private developer’s benefit? 4. Is there some crazy need to consolidate everything within on spot in the central business district? I have a feeling Detroit is big enough that a little ways up the river is not out in the sticks. I know this kind of thing used to be done all the time (spending public money for private interests, tearing down nice things), and in some places maybe still is, but I’m pretty sure that it’s generally limited to places that aren’t going on the right direction. | ||
Eastsidedog Member Username: Eastsidedog Post Number: 428 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 68.250.2.124 |
BIllpx, It is a very underused hot location right between the Ren Cen and Hart Plaza. There is abundant vacant city owned land along the river just to the east but that is being cleared for a lot of high-density residential development. It is my opnion that further up Jefferson near Sinbads and the Roostertail woul be an interesting location for a new Chene Park. I think there is plently of land in that area (can anyone confirm?).
No, but the closer the riverfront property is to downtown, the more valuable it is. The value of the land, and the popularity of the location is much, much lower as you get further from downtown, that's why this is a good site for luxury housing.
If anything is for sure, Detroit city government loves to tear things down, as much as possible to build almost anything, IHOP's, Burger King's you name it. "Tearing Schitt Down" for decades has been the absolute measure of progress in Detroit. Build new, new, new. Everyone loves new. Everyone talks about new this, new that. When folks cite the progress of Downtown they exclusively cite what's NEW. NEW Compuware, NEW Stadiums, NEW lofts. Rehab and upgrades to the old buildings are hardly mentioned. Only in the last ten years has their been much effort at preservation. IMO, Kilpatrick realizes some of the value of preservation although their have been some losses on his watch.
Outside the the CBD is the sticks for most suburbanites and visitors. But if the new Chene Park is to focus on entertainment for city residents and not be a regional draw, there's no reason why it even needs to be near downtown where there are few city residents in comparison to the rest of the city. Technically downtown isn't even central to the city's population. Hope I answered some questions, oh and I agree that post-war modernism is not out of vogue at all. It's very hot with younger generations right now. One can visit at least a dozen antique shops in Metro Detroit that specialize in post-war modern furniture that work great in lofts. My friend lives in Toronto and their condo is all decorated modern and their are DOZENS of modernist only antique furniture stores all over downtown Toronto. BTW, they love Lafayette Park and would probably dig FA too. Detroit can be so unfashionable sometimes.  | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2182 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.3.110 |
Well, as I have stated before, I don't like the idea of a 3rd amphitheater in 25 years. However, Eastsidedog did mention one thing that I agree with. That is the fact that suburbanites will come downtown for entertainment venues, but they seem to shy away from other areas of the city, even the east riverfront and Belle Isle. Perhaps... rather than another 5,000 seat venue in Hart Plaza, they should make it larger, say an 8,000 seat amphitheatre. And they should get Mike Ilitch to spring for some of the money so that in turn he can book Olympia Entertainment acts to the amphitheater to compete with Pine Knob and Freedom Hill. What... 8,000 seats is too many? Not when you have 100,000 people in Hart Plaza for the summer music festivals. Now where are all those people gonna park..... | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 393 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 198.103.184.76 |
Trainman should have a response to the above parking question.... | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2184 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.72.27 |
LOL.... Upinottawa.... on second thought, 8,000 seats may be a little to big. But anything with even 5,000 seats will probably require a berm obstructing the view of the river from that stretch of Jefferson. | ||
Detourdetroit Member Username: Detourdetroit Post Number: 213 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
imagine tearing down the whole city so we could all benefit from an unobstructed view of the Detroit River. just get that silly architecture out of the way! oh...how glorious it would be! | ||
Eastsidedog Member Username: Eastsidedog Post Number: 430 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 12.47.224.8 |
Yeah! We should plow it all down and change the name of Jefferson Avenue to RiverDrive! | ||
Dnvn522 Member Username: Dnvn522 Post Number: 121 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 204.24.64.25 |
I think FA would make a nice location for the Michigan Sports Hall of Fame. | ||
Mallory Member Username: Mallory Post Number: 3 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 207.230.140.240 |
OK, don't get me wrong because I'm all for new things and growth in the CofD, but let me get this straight - you tear down a theater to build a theater? Am I reading this right? | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3809 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 24.11.154.56 |
Technically. The plan is to tear down an indoor theater, for an amphitheater (outdoor). | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1747 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.68 |
Any comment on what it would cost to take apart FA and reconstruct it here: http://maps.google.com/maps?f= q&hl=en&q=detroit&om=1&ll=42.3 5944,-83.062284&spn=0.004091,0 .01148&t=h ? Or maybe you'd be building a replica? Then maybe everybody wins. | ||
Mallory Member Username: Mallory Post Number: 4 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 207.230.140.240 |
QUOTE: No, but the closer the riverfront property is to downtown, the more valuable it is. The value of the land, and the popularity of the location is much, much lower as you get further from downtown, that's why this is a good site for luxury housing. HUH? Mind explaining that one to all of us who used to frequent all of the places in Rivertown? The Rhino? Closed. Woodbridge? Closed. Soup Kitchen? Closed. It's been a ghost town for how many years? How can that possibly be considered prime real estate. If it was, the old warehouses would/should have been torn down YEARS ago! You can take a two-block wide bulldozer and start from the RenCen all the way to the Belle Isle Bridge. Now THAT is real estate. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1748 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.68 |
Have you been down there recently? BTW - Those places closed largely because the city took their land for casino development. (edit: added "largely") (Message edited by jsmyers on May 30, 2006) | ||
Bibs Member Username: Bibs Post Number: 497 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Lmichigan - That's hilarious. Quit being so logical! This is the D and "The Man has the Vision". Let's see if you remember that campaign slogan! | ||
Eastsidedog Member Username: Eastsidedog Post Number: 433 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 69.212.125.82 |
Mallory, it is precisely because the land was prime real estate that the city tried to sieze it all for the casinos. And it was a disaster IMO. | ||
Mallory Member Username: Mallory Post Number: 6 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 207.230.140.240 |
Sorry, I am a transplanted Detroiter now living in Southwest Florida (thanks to the Pistons, I am eating alot of Miami crow right now). I recently found this website and am now able to catch up on what has become of my beloved C0fD. If life offers it, I will move back some day. I used to work in the Penob and also worked in the warehouse district "back in the day." I was the house DJ at the old Tangerine Room back when John Salley used to throw parties there. It pains me to see what has become of that area. The only thing missing from the pictures on this site are tumbleweeds. I am all for renewal. Was it Archer that screwed up the land deal for the casinos? It would have been a perfect location. Please fill in my dated blanks. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2202 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.81.168 |
No, it was the greedy landowners. Archer quit buying land when he got to $150 million. I believe he got about 42 acres ($150 million), and still needed another 30 or so. Boy were the holdouts pissed off when Archer changed locations (let the casinos decide where they wanted to build). And the 3 casinos coughed up the $150 million. Those 42 acres are mostly going to be Tricentennial Park, which will be the only state park in Detroit, on the waterfront. Also, the cement silos are gone (or nearly gone). Also Mallory, the formerParke Davis complex of 10 buildings, now known as River Place, has commercial offices and loft condos. And there's Harbortown, a gated community with a 17 and 19 story appartment towers. And then there's the new GM/UAW training center, a huge 10 story complex. So it ain't all abandoned warehouses. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1624 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 69.220.63.57 |
And importantly, just about every empty space is being slotted for a new mixed-use development, with most of the developers already having been chosen. Good work has been done recently by the DEGC. There will also be a walking/biking path from the riverfront to Eastern Market along the Dequindre cut. Is Detroit Screw Works still standing? It is a historic site, and we were debating what to do with it about a year ago on this site. Mallory, there is still a little density with older buildings remaining in a couple spots. Mainly along Woodbridge, Jos. Campau, and around the Mt. Elliot government offices. This area is about to undergo a huge makeover, and we'll see how everything meshes. | ||
Mallory Member Username: Mallory Post Number: 7 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 207.230.140.240 |
Thanks to Gistok and Mackinaw for filling in the blanks. It actually sounds like great news. I still think that the warehouse area would have been awesome for the casinos, but I know how real estate holdouts can either screw or get screwed. How is the occupancy of the apartments (their name escapes me) next to the Joe? Used to be a cheeky place to live, but they've been there for a while now. I used to park in the Joe's garage when I worked at the Penob. Now THERE was/is a beautiful building. I've actually been on the roof of the Penob (not sure if that is against the law but it was one of those things that you heard about being possible to do so I did it). | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2211 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.72.39 |
During the weekly summer Downtown Art Deco Office Building tours that Preservation Wayne sponsors, they do get to visit the roof of the Penobscot Building. But I don't think that the building management otherwise allows it. Also, recently the new owners of the Penobscot Building have put outdoor spotlight lighting onto all the setbacks of the building. At night it looks spectacular! Anyone have a pic?? | ||
Eric Member Username: Eric Post Number: 465 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 35.11.210.161 |
I think most of that 42 acres is what's being marketed for development the state park planned as part of the casino district. Whatever case the casino debacle is working out the for the best the new mixed used projects and Riverwalk are much uses for the east riverfront Here's the Penobscot pic you asked for http://static.flickr.com/37/12 1904505_efeffeb76e_b.jpg Riverfront Towers is still very occupied they're curretnly going condo http://www.modeldmedia.com/dev elopmentnews/riverfront2.aspx | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3815 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 24.11.154.56 |
Mallory, as Eric has pointed out, Riverfront Towers is undergoing quite the change, and I'd say better than ever. Two towers are going condominium, with the smaller one remaining apartments, I believe. A new gourmet market is going in, as well: Gourmet market, restaurant set to open in Riverfront Towers - scroll down to May 23rd http://www.modeldmedia.com/dev elopmentnews/default.aspx Don't worry about greater downtown; it's doing just fine. The same can't be said for some of the outlying neighborhoods, though, although many of them are seeing new development themselves. I urge you to check out Model D to keep up on development and redevelopment: http://www.modeldmedia.com/ | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 403 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 198.103.184.76 |
bump for Inquisitor. | ||
Brian Member Username: Brian Post Number: 3316 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.73.32.143 |
The reason they want to tear down Chene Park is to keep facilities like that in the control of the DDA. Then the City Council can be removed from the authority of who grants contracts to run the location. This is about getting control of revenue produced at Chene Park which competes, and has the ability to compete, with other theatres in the CBD. | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 1852 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
Brian when was the last time that Chene Park wasn't subsidized by the general fund? |
