Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 891 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 7:52 am: | |
Top Detroit teachers want raise Union's 15.6% pay hike request may prompt contract fight with destitute district. Catherine Jun / The Detroit News DETROIT -- The teacher's union for the state's largest school district is seeking a 15.6 percent pay increase for its top-tier teachers next year, a bold move that may signal that negotiations with the cash-strapped district could be sticky again this summer. Janna Garrison, president of the Detroit Federation of Teachers, said the increase would bring the pay of the most senior teachers to the top 10 percent of that in the tri-county area. "It's not fair that if you choose to work in an urban district … you're penalized in your retirement years as well," she said. Top-tier teachers are those who have master's degrees and at least nine years of experience. "While other teachers are cruising the Caribbean, we'll be cruising the Detroit River," she said. Last summer, stymied negotiations almost threatened a teacher strike and a delayed start of the school year. Teachers agreed a week before school started to accept the terms of the contract, which included a freeze in pay rates and loaning portions of their paycheck to the district to help balance the budget. But when pay raises were approved for principals, teachers marched in rallies and organized a sick-out during the school year that forced the closure of 53 of the district's 235 schools. The sick-out was not sanctioned by the union. Debra Williams, chief human resources officer for the district, did not return calls for comment on the proposed pay raises. Board member Jonathan Kinloch, who chairs the board's human resources committee, declined to comment on the pay increase, but said he hoped both parties will keep in mind "the effect of the terms on the district's bottom line as well as what's in the best interest for providing a quality education for the children of Detroit." He added that his committee will monitor the negotiations throughout the summer to ensure that school starts on time. The district, which is losing about 10,000 students a year, is still under state watch to bring its budget out of deficit. The district borrowed $213 million to avoid bankruptcy last year. The annual salary of teachers in Detroit tops out at $70,046, while the median top pay in districts in Wayne, Oakland and Macomb counties is $76,100, said Patrick Falcusan of the Detroit Federation of Teachers. Last year, the teachers' concessions were far less than what was outlined by the district in a state-mandated plan. District officials said they would have lost more students if there was a prolonged strike. You can reach Catherine Jun at (313) 222-2269 or cjun@detnews.com. |
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette
Post Number: 939 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 68.60.177.56
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 9:11 am: | |
We love to talk about children in this country, we love to say USA! WE'RE NUMBER 1! But we don't give a shit about them and we wish to give them - no, we FIGHT to give them the worst cheapest education with cut rate teachers. Every frigging teacher in this country should make what a poltician makes. |
Spartacus Member Username: Spartacus
Post Number: 121 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 209.114.251.65
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 9:18 am: | |
If we could throw a few thousand a year more at teachers we could pass California and have the highest teacher pay in the country (Michigan teachers already have the most expensive benefits). Then our children will be far and away the best educated. This is the only thing holding our state back. |
Ravine Member Username: Ravine
Post Number: 176 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 69.220.62.66
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 9:20 am: | |
Well, well. Before all of the forum authorities arrive, foaming at the mouth with overwrought opinion and leaving highlighted links to God-knows-what-all, I offer three suggestions. One: Let's find out how much is paid to comparable-level teachers in other large midwestern cities. Two: Before the "screw them, they do a lousy job anyway" line forms, let's remember the multitude of kids who graduate from our public schools every year with not only excellent grades, but with a quality education and good personal literacy skills, WHY, because a) THEY gave a damn about amounting to something in life, b) THEIR PARENTS were on the job, instead of acting like kids, themselves, and c) the educational resource was available, which is to say that there ARE some good teachers in the system, without whom the values of points a & b are diminished. On the other hand, before we get hit with the rant about how these long-suffering teachers risk life & limb, every day, entering the squalid blackboard jungle so as to carry out their selfless life's work, let's remind ourselves that they "knew it going in," and that, for some of them, the ONLY reason they are THERE is for the big paycheck. Now, maybe I should duck outta here, before the shit-storm ensues. |
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander
Post Number: 1914 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 9:30 am: | |
Screw them, they do a lousy job anyway. |
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies
Post Number: 1931 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 129.9.163.106
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 9:34 am: | |
If they wanted high pay they should get a different job. I'd love to earn more than I do. Unfortunately the company I work for is unwilling or unable to pay more. Welcome to the real world. |
Bvos Member Username: Bvos
Post Number: 1563 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.238.170.40
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 9:35 am: | |
There are hundreds (thousands?) of teachers in DPS who have 9 years of experience under their belt and have master's degrees. I'd say it constitutes the majority of DPS teachers. I just don't understand how they think the DPS can afford this. It's one thing to demand pay equality when there's some wiggle room, but the DPS is loosing money like crazy with all the students leaving. Other school districts in Michigan aren't doing much teacher hiring so teachers that would leave DPS over pay would have to move out of state. If you were the type of teacher that would leave over pay, you're probably also fed up with the lack of supplies, politics, poor operations, poor building maintenance, etc. as well so I don't see pay as being something that is going to be a make or break for keeping quality teachers in the DPS. As someone who works with DPS teachers, I don't agree with this DFT fight. I think it's selfish and does not serve the best interest of the students. If the DFT is truly about "the kids", then fight for getting the facilities maintained so that they're at least up to health code. Fight for getting toilet paper. Fight for getting books and other learning materials in the classroom. Fight for libraries with more than a few dozen books. Fight for computers that work and have high-speed internet access that doesn't go down all the time. Don't fight for a pay increase in a recession, in a district where the vast majority of kids get free lunch and in a district that is loosing 10,000+ kids a year. |
Goat Member Username: Goat
Post Number: 8567 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 70.53.97.136
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 9:36 am: | |
If you pay teachers decent wages you can afford to weed out the bad ones and attract the best and brightest. Take a look at the state of Florida for the reverse... |
Pffft Member Username: Pffft
Post Number: 1009 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.221.71.17
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 9:37 am: | |
This reminds me of the Consumer Reports thing..Consumer Reports consistently rates Japanese and European cars above American, not because the quality is better, but because the small group of Consumer Reports readers who are polled, EXPECT American cars to be worse. The test of this; they rated the Toyota Matrix higher than the IDENTICAL Pontiac Vibe. They are prejudiced. Same for the Dittoheads on public school teachers. The talking points are getting a bit tired. Overpaid teachers, blah blah blah. Just as the UAW is reponsible for all the ills in society, so are these g.d. teachers! My private theory is that you guys were humiliated in class by a teacher, made to stay after school, given bad grades...and by golly, you're gonna get back at them. Just give it a rest. Free your mind and your ass will follow. |
Bvos Member Username: Bvos
Post Number: 1565 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.238.170.40
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 9:42 am: | |
Goat, that scenario doesn't really work in the DPS with the DFT. Some of the most senior teachers (which translates into the highest paid) are some of the crustiest, meanest folks out there. The DFT gives a vigorous defense for teachers who have well known histories but are trying to be weeded out by administrators. Meanwhile the newer teachers (both new from college as well as new from other districts) who are motivated with fresh ideas and to create change get laid off and moved around time and time again while they watch the cranky old-timers stick around and uninspire another generation of kids. |
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette
Post Number: 941 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 68.60.177.56
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 9:44 am: | |
The State of Arizona is paying teachers $70/year to start, paying your first years rent and paying off your student loans in exchange for a five year "contract". We will see more bright teachers leave for the desert, and our children will be left to wander in the desert. |
Goat Member Username: Goat
Post Number: 8570 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 70.53.97.136
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 9:48 am: | |
Bvos, you said it..."some" and not all. Sure there are always going to be carppy individuals in all aspects of the job world but paying the teachers should be a non-issue. Take alook at the states that invest in their teachers compared to the ones that don't. Is there a parallel to be seen? There sure is. BTW: Not a fan of tenure either. |
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies
Post Number: 1932 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 129.9.163.233
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 9:52 am: | |
And Arizona is a growth comunity. The number of jobs available far outstrips the number of applicants. We are not in Arizona. We have a declining student population, no growth and no need for more teachers. In the real world this always means declining wages. Why should the teachers job market be any different from any other job market. |
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 108 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 64.131.176.232
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 10:02 am: | |
Why shouldn't they be paid the same rates as their suburban counterparts? Most times they're dealing with a lot more adversity... |
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette
Post Number: 942 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 68.60.177.56
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 10:05 am: | |
No, we're not in Arizona. And we'll never be a growth community as long as our schools fail. We will always be a third world community. We hate those disadvantaged Detroit kids iheartthed. Fuck 'em till they go to the Middle East to fight, then really fuck 'em, they volunteered. Sheeesh. |
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies
Post Number: 1933 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 129.9.163.233
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 10:08 am: | |
Looking at the American fedration of teachers salary study, Michigan ranked number 5 in teacher salaries. Arizona ranked 26th. http://www.aft.org/salary/2004 /download/2004AFTSalarySurvey. pdf So Oldredfordette you may have heard of one district in AZ paying the earth for their teachers, but it would be a statistical fluke. So i don't see how a teachers union in Michigan can justify asking for more money. You're in a top 5 wage state, only earning 10% less than the top wage in that state. You're already way above the mean for the entire nation. If you don't like being one of the highest compensated teachers in the nation find another career. |
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa
Post Number: 917 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 208.39.170.90
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 10:10 am: | |
quote:Some of the most senior teachers (which translates into the highest paid) are some of the crustiest, meanest folks out there.
Better than nuns. |
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander
Post Number: 1915 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 10:12 am: | |
I have no problem with them be paid more if there were funds available. Pffft please tell me where the money is going to come from? Pffft you are one of the clueless ones that doesn't understand fiscal responsibility. You believe people should earn more money just because, who cares if there is no money or if they actually will earn it. |
Bvos Member Username: Bvos
Post Number: 1567 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.238.170.40
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 10:15 am: | |
Goat, Yes, it's just some, but those "some" teachers are enough to be a wet blanket and bring the whole process to a grinding halt. It causes a lot of very talented younger teachers to leave because they're getting all the commendations from parents and prinicpals and then get "rewarded" by being laid off or transfered in the middle of the school year to another school while the sticks in the mud are outspoken downers who can do just about anything and stay at the school. |
Gambling_man Member Username: Gambling_man
Post Number: 766 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 199.178.193.5
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 10:26 am: | |
Susanarosa, Do you have any idea what you are talking about? I went to Catholic high-school and the nuns we had teaching were some of the brightest and kindest women I have ever met. Nuns being "cruel" to students in school is a bad stereotype, and one that bears little resemblence to reality at least in this day and age......Also, ALL of them have vowed to live in poverty, which means that they give their teacher's salary back to the school and to their order.....better people than you and I for certain.... |
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 892 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 10:27 am: | |
ORF: "The State of Arizona is paying teachers $70/year to start, paying your first years rent and paying off your student loans in exchange for a five year "contract". We will see more bright teachers leave for the desert, and our children will be left to wander in the desert." $70 per year doesn't buy much even in Arizona, even with free rent thrown in and all. Perhaps, Rip van ORF was living in the 19th Century and just woke up. |
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander
Post Number: 1917 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 10:28 am: | |
I went to Catholic school for 8 years and look how I turned out. I blame the nuns. |
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa
Post Number: 918 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 208.39.170.90
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 10:29 am: | |
quote:Susanarosa, Do you have any idea what you are talking about?
Yes, I do. |
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander
Post Number: 1918 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 10:31 am: | |
Ms. Rosa I think you are reaching with that statement. |
Pffft Member Username: Pffft
Post Number: 1010 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 12.34.51.20
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 10:50 am: | |
Merchantgander, Try reading my posts rather than having a knee-jerk "anti-liberal" response to them, please. I didn't say they should get more money in this instance. I'm just sick of the teacher-bashing, especially public school teachers, especially, the Almighty-forbid, unionized public school teachers. Demonize them as the cause of high gas prices, inflation and all of society's ills if it makes you feel better. Don't put words in my mouth though, thank you. I have plenty of my own. |
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa
Post Number: 919 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 208.39.170.90
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 10:55 am: | |
Thanks Merch. I know I can always count on you for a hard kick in the teeth. But after 13 years (if you count Kindergarden) Catholic School education, I do actually know something about Catholic schools. |
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander
Post Number: 1919 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 10:59 am: | |
You were the one with the knee-jerk reaction. I don't see anyone say the teachers union was the reason the apocalypse was coming. I think you should read the thread and wait to see what direction it goes before you chastise people for what they might say. Just so you know I’m a super liberal. |
Bob Member Username: Bob
Post Number: 1030 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 64.12.116.204
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 11:00 am: | |
Now, I must admit, you will be hard pressed to find a school district anywhere that will be able to give a 16.5% raise, but Michigan has been able to attract the best of the best of teachers (in most cases) because of the benefits, pay etc. Michigan colleges are known for turning out the best teachers, which is why MI teachers are so sought after in other areas of the country. You look at areas where they do not invest in teachers (southern states) and the schools are a mess. Arizona is doing this because they get it, they are not going to get a top notch education system without paying teachers to come. Good teachers are not the only factor in a successful education system, (parent involvement being another huge one). In this day and age MI cannot afford to shortchange teachers, because if we lose the education system we have, any hope of turning around this state economy is gone. There are bad teachers anywhere, just like there are bad cops anywhere, bad politicians, bad CEO's etc. |
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander
Post Number: 1920 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 11:00 am: | |
Ms. Rosa I will always have your back. |
Dougw Member Username: Dougw
Post Number: 1186 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 136.2.1.103
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 11:16 am: | |
Interesting points, Bvos. It does sound like it would be in the best interest of the district (and the kids) to weaken the DFT and have the ability to fire some of the more stick-in-the-mud types, who I'm sure are out there, while keeping most other teachers. Also, IMO poor schools are not a root cause of many of Detroit's problems... they are a side effect. |
Ravine Member Username: Ravine
Post Number: 179 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 69.220.62.66
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 11:38 am: | |
I think Susanarosa was kidding about the nuns. Scary as they may have seemed, sometimes, they were truly dedicated to teaching. I was taught by the IHM's... We figured that stood for "I Hate Men," not "Immaculate Heart of Mary." But seriously, folks... Y'know why they're called "nuns?' 'Cuz they're not gettin' none. Here's an idea (and I'm just {sort of} kidding, so don't jump on me): Pay them LESS, so only those truly dedicated to teaching as a vocation, not just a "job," will apply. With the money you save, you can buy the materials, and pay for the programs and resources, that the REAL teachers need. |
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 110 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 64.131.176.232
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 11:44 am: | |
It's funny how people always somehow attribute the falling of a successful Detroit renaissance to the state of the public school system. Yet, whenever Detroit teachers ask for competitive salaries as surrounding communities, it's always vehemently opposed. So is the key to fixing Detroit schools (and by extension, the city itself) a community service, work-for-less scheme? It seems kinda un-American to me. Maybe we should cut suburban salaries? That's a thought. On another note, New York City's school system is even crappier than Detroit's. Yet, somehow the city survives and manages to continue attracting residents... |
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa
Post Number: 921 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 208.39.170.90
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 11:45 am: | |
I was kinda kidding. I only had two really horrible mean nuns for teachers in 13 years. I think that's a pretty good percentage considering. |
Viziondetroit Member Username: Viziondetroit
Post Number: 534 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.42.176.190
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 11:47 am: | |
A higher salary does not equate to better students... However it is a tool to attract the best teachers who can make a difference.. but it is not an automatic fix... |
Bob Member Username: Bob
Post Number: 1032 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 64.12.116.204
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 11:56 am: | |
Catholic Schools were at their peak when there were lots of nuns who would work for next to nothing. Nuns taught because it was part of their calling. But since there is such a huge shortage of nuns and priests, Catholic Schools have had to rely on lay people to teach in them. And to attract top notch teachers, to compete with other schools (charters and public) they have had to pay more in salary and benefits. This is part of the reason for the decline of Catholic Schools, they have had to raise tuition to pay the teachers, hence less people can afford to send their kids there, equals school closings. Some people saw vouchers as the answer, but you cannot get state money without oversight (ie No Child Left Behind and testing) so the Catholic Schools quietly stopped trying to get the voucher thing passed, because they did not want to be told by the state what to do. Although if Dick DeVos has his way like he and his family have wanted (and bankrolled the fight) any school could receive the state money, but only public and charters would have the oversight. Will be interesting to see if this comes out in the election. |
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 895 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 12:23 pm: | |
Overpaying an incompetent teacher merely further entrenches that teacher. Where else could such a person earn a comparable salary in the free marketplace? Also, time-in-grade as a teacher is no guarantee of competency. Furthermore, being admitted to a Masters in Teaching (MIT) degree program at Wayne State University only requires an undergraduate degree in any area with a GPA of only 2.6. Whoopy! |
Bob Member Username: Bob
Post Number: 1034 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 64.12.116.204
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 12:30 pm: | |
If there is an incompetant teacher, that means there is an incompetant administrator that is not doing their job. Even a tenured teacher can be removed, or forced to improve, but that relies on an adminstrator who does their job, documents it, and then they can be removed. |
Bvos Member Username: Bvos
Post Number: 1572 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.238.170.40
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 12:42 pm: | |
Livernoisyard, it's a M.A.T. - Masters in the Art of Teaching. And Wayne has a very highly regarded program. Bob, it also means an administrator who has the time to figure out all the loopholes to get a tenured teacher out. I don't know of many administrators who have the time or energy to deal with parents, bureacrats, grant writing (to buy supplies that the district can't afford to buy), maintenance issues, safety issues, behavioral issues, teacher scheduling, etc. as well as having it out for a certain teacher. |
Warriorfan Member Username: Warriorfan
Post Number: 408 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 68.43.81.191
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 1:25 pm: | |
In a perfect world, teachers would make as much money as doctors. This is not a perfect world. I would love to see the teachers get their pay raise, but where will the money come from? Did Kwame forget to plant those money trees again? |
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_
Post Number: 1402 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.220.230.150
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 1:53 pm: | |
Doctors save lives, teachers mold minds. Not exactly the same thing. They could pay teachers 250k a year and the state of education would be the same. The majority of kids and parents just do not care about education. It is about discipline, jobs and sports. (Message edited by _sj_ on June 20, 2006) |
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 896 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 2:52 pm: | |
Bob: "If there is an incompetant incompetent teacher, that means there is an incompetant incompetent administrator that who is not doing their his job. Even a tenured teacher can be removed, or forced to improve, but that relies on an adminstrator who does their his job, documents it, and then they she can be removed." I know you're a nice guy and all, but you're a teacher working on a "teacher's" Masters! But, "Hey! Get your grammar down correctly. You're busted! Turn in your chalk and laser pointer! Do not pass GO, and do not collect $200!" And my bad on WSU's MAT. But another Hey! Only a 2.6 overall GPA in any undergrad discipline for being admitted there?! Aren't you aware of the massive GPA inflation during the past forty years? That's probably equivalent to a C+ high school student today who would have gotten an overall D GPA way back in 1960. |
Jokerman Member Username: Jokerman
Post Number: 19 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 67.125.189.14
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 2:55 pm: | |
More power to the Detroit teachers and the DFT. I taught in the Detroit Public Schools in the 70's. When I moved to San Diego and began teaching there I had to take a pay cut. Since that time, San Diego's teacher salaries have surpassed DPS. And, San Diego teachers are among the lowest paid of the large urban districts in California. The motto of many large school districts seems to be, "Stack 'em deep and teach 'em cheap!" |
Rjk Member Username: Rjk
Post Number: 358 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.41.145.5
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 3:58 pm: | |
"But since there is such a huge shortage of nuns and priests, Catholic Schools have had to rely on lay people to teach in them. And to attract top notch teachers, to compete with other schools (charters and public) they have had to pay more in salary and benefits." I went to Catholic school for 12 years in the 70's and early 80's and out of the 45-50 teachers that I had only 4 of them were nuns. At the time the price was relatively cheap compared to today, around $1,200 for my last year. I'm not sure what is causing the price increase at Catholic schools, but for decades the preponderance of teachers at Catholic schools have been lay people and not nuns. I don't know what Catholic school teachers are making today, but I doubt very much that their salaries are anywhere close to what public school teachers are making. If a teacher is looking to make money they're certainly not going to teach at a Catholic school. |
Bob Member Username: Bob
Post Number: 1035 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 205.188.116.137
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 4:16 pm: | |
The word may be spelled wrong, but the message is true. You keep refering to WSU's gradepoint average, but they are only one out of many institutions that offer graduate programs in education. MSU's is one of the top graduate education programs in the nation, as is UM. Livernoisyard, since you seem to have all the answers, why don't we elect you governor and you can tell all of us how to fix education and the economy of this state, since you seem to have all the answers. |
Southwestmap Member Username: Southwestmap
Post Number: 500 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 70.229.231.102
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 4:49 pm: | |
I'm pretty sure about the following: Catholic school teachers still make less than public school teachers - but maybe 40% less. Even the few religious order women still working in Catholic schools make the same salary - because there is a huge financial burden for them to support the many retired nuns who worked for nearly nothing all their lives and who now have high health care costs. The exception are the nuns who were nurses and ran hospitals - the Mercy Health system, for example. Those religious orders have more money. Many teachers prefer to teach in Catholic or other private schools because of the shared educational values that parents and the supporting community have. Also, much less bureaucracy. Many curriculum decisions are local, for instance. There are, for many people, other considerations beside money when making a decision about how to spend the majority of their time. Bob is also wrong when he infers that the Catholic Schools lost the voucher fight because there was an unwillingness to accept State or Federal oversight. The "No Child Left Behind" strictures apply to Catholic schools as well. While Catholic elementary schools don't take the MEAP test (to my knowledge), they do take the Iowa test - another national standards test. Catholic high schools aspire to and hold the same accredidations that public schools have. The voucher fight in Michigan was sabatoged by the teacher unions and by a rampant anti-Catholic bias. |
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 897 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 4:57 pm: | |
My rant is over, Bob. I have no gripes with MSU and only a bit with WSU. MSU doesn't buy radio time in order to paint itself as a major university. But you did have six errors in two sentences, though. It was probably somewhat unfair of me to use those two sentences as an example why a nearly bankrupt city should not pay its teachers $81K, plus "Cadillac" health and retirement plans for a job of some 180ish days a year, with workdays some 7 hours long, including lunch, "prep" time, and recesses. And you're probably much more competent than DPS's teachers. Having previously taught, I know that some teachers take home "work" sometimes, and I also know others who never do. DPS should stop rolling its customers. |
Bob Member Username: Bob
Post Number: 1037 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 205.188.116.137
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 5:09 pm: | |
That is completely untrue. Although Catholic schools tend to follow the same standards as public schools, they are not legally required to and do not have to follow NCLB by law. Many choose to follow it because it is what their competition does, and they may choose to take MEAP or Iowa Basics so they can see how they compare to public schools, but they are not legally obligated to. Now everything aside, Catholic Schools tend to have a different type of student due to the fact their parents have to pay to send them there, and they choose to follow the accrediting guidelines that public schools have to by law, but they again are not obligated to by law. Most choose to because it helps give them a benchmark to show why you should send your children there. The voucher fight is something that we will here a lot about in the coming months since it was Dick DeVos and family that have been the people bankrolling the ballot proposal for the past 20 years. The voucher fight went down in flames not because of what you said, but because it was a bad law. No one, (not even public schools) should get tax money yet, have no guildlines, laws or rules they have to follow. The way the voucher fight has been fought in Michigan is that they was to give the money to Catholic and Private schools, but they can turn anyone down they want to, not have to follow education laws, or other guildlines set forth by the Legislature and State Board of Ed. |
Bob Member Username: Bob
Post Number: 1038 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 205.188.116.137
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 5:16 pm: | |
And I completely agree with you Livernoisyard, that a 16.5% raise is ridiculous. That is way above a cost of living raise. Now DPS teachers have the right to be ticked because of the raise the administrators got, but 16.5% in todays current climate is ridiculous. Most school district right now are settling for either a very small raise, or none at all, and taking higher copays to be able to keep their health insurance. DPS is a mess that was made even worse by the state taking it over. I cannot honestly say what the solution is. Only to tell my story that I twice applied for a teaching job in DPS, and twice made it past the first round of interviews, and twice received a job offer 4 months after the interview because "that is how long it takes the paperwork to get from human resources to the next office who does the final hiring. |
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765
Post Number: 829 Registered: 01-2004 Posted From: 4.229.24.230
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 6:14 pm: | |
"(Michigan teachers already have the most expensive benefits)" Not always true. All Michigan teachers do not get the same insurance. My wife is a teacher and does not get the top package because her union did not bargain for it. Her friend has the top available insurance - but gets paid MUCH less for the same pay scale step as my wife. Shut the hell up if you dont know what you are actually saying. |
Bob Member Username: Bob
Post Number: 1040 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 205.188.116.137
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 7:45 pm: | |
Mauser765 speaks the truth, salary and benefits are negotiated by each individual teachers union. The only thing that is statewide is the pension system. But that is only for teachers in public schools. Charter school are not part of the public school pension system because they are technically not public employees. Charter School teachers are hired by a company (like Edison, Heritage academies, etc) which in turn is contracted by a charter school board to run the school (most for a profit might I add). |
Pffft Member Username: Pffft
Post Number: 1011 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.221.71.17
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 8:03 pm: | |
Unions always ask for more than they know they're going to get, this is the beginning of a negotiation. The school board will low ball them, and they'll get substantially less. I share the concern over Bob's spelling -- Bob, please tell me you're not teaching English -- but I agree with his message. Livernoisyard doesn't seem to grasp that we get what we pay for, in the way of teachers. How many fine ones left Detroit, or would never consider it because of the mediocre pay on top of dangerous/challenging conditions? Detroit used to have a world class public school system, in the '30s through '60s, and a handsome pay scale. The two things go together. You're objecting to paying the current teachers any more, yet if you don't get the money up somewhat the district will never attract more quality teachers (and edge out the mediocre ones). |
East_detroit Member Username: East_detroit
Post Number: 635 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.212.169.194
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 8:03 pm: | |
Is the problem the Michigan schools or the Detroit schools? If its the Detroit schools, why? Why should those kids receive less of a State mandated education than kids in the suburbs? Simply abolish local-only school millages and mandate that all funds for schools go to the State and then back out to the districts with the same money to be spent on each kid. Its a State education, not a Detroit or Birmingham education. Make it so. |
Bob Member Username: Bob
Post Number: 1041 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 205.188.116.137
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 8:44 pm: | |
The inequality with school funding in Michigan stems from back when they were trying to come up with Proposal A, was to promise the districts that already got large amounts (Birmingham, Bloomfield Hills, Southfield) that they would not lose money. So were able to keep their large per pupil amounts, while a minimum was established. As crazy as this sounds there were lots of districts that were happy with this arrangement because they went from getting $3000 to $5000 per pupil. They had to keep the in equality to get the thing to pass. The bigger thing that made people happy was instead of the School Aid Fund primarily coming from Property taxes, it now comes from an increased sales tax. This made lots of people happy because their property taxes went way down. Now shifting the burden of school funding from property taxes to sales tax worked when the economy was humming along in the 90s, but when it tanked so did the money going into the school aid fund, so we now are left with an unstable way of funding schools. This was why for a couple years schools had their foundation allowance cut mid-year, because there was not enough money in the school aid fund to pay, and the state could no longer make up the shortfall from the general fund, like they did during the booming 90s. Our state government knew they had an unstable source of funding for public schools, but no one wanted to be the person to fix it. Fast forward to the solution that is proposed, which is the State Constitutional amendment that ties raising the school foundation allowance to inflation or 5%, which in somewhat foolish because it ties the hands of the government to fund schools first and everything else second (including police, fire, etc). Although I will be the first person to admit we need to better fund schools, and lower the cost of college tuition, I don't think this proposal is what is the best solution. |
Angry_dad Member Username: Angry_dad
Post Number: 61 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 172.191.198.57
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 8:47 pm: | |
The problem is Detroit schools. Until the residents make schools a higher priority than football and baseball stadiums, it will always be that way. No you are not entitled to a "state" education. Detroiters don't want to pay for it and too many parents in Detroit don't care. Proof is MEAP scores and graduation rates. |
Dillpicklesoup Member Username: Dillpicklesoup
Post Number: 68 Registered: 05-2006 Posted From: 64.7.188.93
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 8:55 pm: | |
Let's see- 81,000 f0r a 4 year degree- not bad for 265 days of work- try and make that much with almost any other degree- good luck- no wonder property taxes are so outrageous- |
Bob Member Username: Bob
Post Number: 1042 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 205.188.116.137
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 9:02 pm: | |
Read my above post, schools are no longer paid for with property taxes. Most teacher are not paid $81,000 a year, even with a masters degree. |
Pffft Member Username: Pffft
Post Number: 1012 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.221.71.17
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 9:05 pm: | |
This is the same mentality where they're saying "all auto workers make" ...whatever the top pay is. People saying that are partisans trying to shout the other side down, they're not interested in the truth. |
Trainman Member Username: Trainman
Post Number: 66 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 10:16 pm: | |
Let's just vote in a small tax increase. It fixed our public bus systems and kept them going except in Livonia. I'm sure this can also fix the Detroit schools. I'm sure we can all dig just a little deeper in our pockets because it's others we should think about and not ourselves. I want to save SMART but I can't because they are leaving Livonia. |
Ray Member Username: Ray
Post Number: 717 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 68.42.133.85
| Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 11:47 pm: | |
$76K for a job that gets out at 2:30 and has 4 months vacation each year? Holy crap, I am in the wrong business. These teachers should come work in my industry.12 hour days, with at least one full 8-hour work day virtually every weekend. Grueling uncompensated hours flying from city to city. Maybe 1 week of vacation a year (please bring along your laptop and cellphone for 1-2 hours of work each day). Unrelenting stress and pressure. No retirement plan. And hour-for-hour, well below the wage rate as these $70K teachers. What pack of candy-ass babies. "We can't go to the Carribean." Wahh, Whah. I'm going to vomit. Let's see them work a couple back-to-back all-nighters, then they can think about complaining. In the meantime, they should get a second job to fill up those wasted, empty afternoons and weekends. (Message edited by ray on June 21, 2006) |
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies
Post Number: 1937 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 129.9.163.106
| Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 9:27 am: | |
Yay, let's give a raise to the teachers in the worst school district out of the 50 largest school districts: http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20060621/NEW S01/606210441 |
Spartacus Member Username: Spartacus
Post Number: 122 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 209.114.251.65
| Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 9:28 am: | |
Mauser: When I was talking about Michigan teachers I did not mean "every single Michigan teacher." Obviously we are talking about averages. I've seen statistics that show that Michigan spends the most on benefits as a percentage of pay. In a quick search I found the following: http://www.eiaonline.com/stati stics/table9.pdf Michigan is near the top in this measure. When you figure in that Michigan is a very high paying state then you find that the benefits are very near the top. Want to see something disturbing? Check this out: http://www.eiaonline.com/stati stics/table10.pdf Michigan is the highest (in 2002-2003 at least) paying state when you factor in benefits. The teacher salary discussion frequently ignores the defined benefit pension plan. That is worth A LOT of money. |
Goat Member Username: Goat
Post Number: 8571 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.71.58.62
| Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 9:33 am: | |
Ray, your post doesn't even merit a response. Look into the details before spouting off because you are waaay off base. |
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander
Post Number: 1924 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244
| Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 9:42 am: | |
quote:Yay, let's give a raise to the teachers in the worst school district out of the 50 largest school districts:
Ndavies I agree that Detroit teachers do a poor job of inspiring detroit's youth to stay in school and graduating from the PSL. I believe the parents are more to blame. I would break it down this way: Parents = 70% Teachers = 30% |
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765
Post Number: 832 Registered: 01-2004 Posted From: 4.229.24.135
| Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 9:50 am: | |
Spartacus - personally I am far more concerned with statistics that place our state senators as the second highest paid next to California, although we have the crapiest economy around. There arent many teachers out there rolling in money, and most of them have been doing that job for the insurance: mess with that and you will see a massive exodus from Michigan school systems. (I am sure Mr. Amway will make that a reality. ) People currently finishing their teaching certification are already gushing out of the State as we speak. Let the teachers eat cake. |
Southwestmap Member Username: Southwestmap
Post Number: 502 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 70.229.231.102
| Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 9:51 am: | |
Ray needs a union badly. |
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa
Post Number: 923 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 208.39.170.90
| Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 9:58 am: | |
If Ray's so busy.... what's he doing with the rest of us slackers over here? |
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies
Post Number: 1938 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 129.9.163.233
| Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 9:58 am: | |
I agree Merchant gander. They are only part of the problem. However, we should not reward complete failure. Coming in dead last out of the 50 largest districts is complete failure. Also since the largest 50 districts probably have the largest issues, I would assert that if they went through all the districts in the country they would still come out near dead last. If we want to be real about this, let's add some incentives to the discussion. Let the teachers get their raises when the dropout rates improve. |
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander
Post Number: 1925 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244
| Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 10:05 am: | |
I agree with you Ndavies, but unfortunately the teachers unions would never agree to incentives because that means they would have to perform. Ndavies we have been in agreement way to often lately. |
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto
Post Number: 2118 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.2.148.117
| Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 10:09 am: | |
Funny how so many folks think teaching is just so easy....yeah, you just waltz in at 8am, waltz out at 2:30 and then go home and hang out by the pool...then in June, you're done and you jet off to Ibiza for a couple of months, where you hit the clubs and snort coke off of model's breasts! Why, anybody could do it! There's quite a few details left out there. Like all the ridiculous tests and classes one has to take on top of one's college major...then there's endless checking of papers, meetings, and trying to keep the attention of 30, often more, students. Then your starting salary starts off around 40k. It's the long term teachers that get paid more, and that's because a lot of people get burned out and quit. So yeah, these folks demanding raises when many districts are laying off teachers, are being very unrealistic. But it seems like many people's perception of the teaching profession is also very unrealistic. |
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa
Post Number: 924 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 208.39.170.90
| Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 10:10 am: | |
The way I see it incentives with regard to children and incentives in the business world are two completely different things. I just can't see how it would work when you have a low-income, high-unemployment school district where dropout rates are high whether or not the teachers perform or not. If the kid is going to drop out, s/he is going to drop out whether the parents or teachers have anything to do with it. That sounds defeatist... but... oh well. |
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 902 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42
| Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 10:19 am: | |
Maybe we were being too uncritical about DPS...A timely Detroit News article, in addition to the one in the Free Press: Officials dispute claims that Detroit only graduates 1 in 5 State, school district say new dropout study is inaccurate, did not account for transfers. Catherine Jun / The Detroit News DETROIT -- District and state officials are disputing the findings of a new study that concluded the city district graduated only a fifth of its high-schoolers in 2003, and Michigan only two-thirds. The study -- conducted by Editorial Projects in Education, a Maryland-based nonprofit -- found Detroit Public Schools graduated only 21.7 percent, the worst among the nation's 50 largest districts. District officials said the figures are inaccurate, characterizing them as a "guess." "I don't accept it or believe it," said Juanita Clay Chambers, chief academic officer of the district. She said the district actually graduated 44.5 percent that year, and steadily increased its graduation rate to 68 percent in 2005 through retention programs. The study determined the national graduation rate is 69.6 percent and ranked Michigan 34th in the country with a rate of 66.4 percent. State officials insist the latest graduation rate is 89 percent. Low graduation rates are often considered an indicator of a dropout problem, which swells welfare rolls, fills prison cells and drives up the state's unemployment numbers. "The bottom line is, one high school dropout is one too many," said Martin Ackley, spokesman for the state's Department of Education. "That's unacceptable, and we're working on that." District and state officials contend that the study didn't take into account Detroit's circumstances. The district lost 7,873 students between 2002 and 2003. The study, however, did not account for students transferring out of the district. "We do acknowledge that a significant number of students are not progressing in a way that we would like to see them, and we are working on strategies to ameliorate that," Chambers said. In response to low graduation rates, the district has in recent years implemented a few programs to try to improve retention. Among them are: a summer program to help eighth-graders make the transition to high school and counseling to help ninth-graders adjust, Chambers said. A Detroit News analysis last year found that an estimated 77 percent of Michigan students who started high school graduated with a diploma in 2003. For Detroit, The News calculated 48 percent. The complete study can be viewed at www.edweek.org/dc06. You can reach Catherine Jun at (313) 222-2269 or cjun@detnews.com. (Message edited by livernoisyard on June 21, 2006) |
Bvos Member Username: Bvos
Post Number: 1583 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.238.170.33
| Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 10:21 am: | |
I don't neccessarily agree with incentives either. There are administrators and/or board members that create problems which would make things unfair to teachers working on incentives. As Susanarosa mentioned, the factors of parents, kids and the neighborhood are additional factors that would be out of the teacher's control. Now if there were an incentive program that ran from top to bottom, that might be an interesting concept. |
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander
Post Number: 1928 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244
| Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 10:23 am: | |
Ms. Rosa I think you are down playing the role parents and teachers have in the children’s lives. I know I couldn't drop out even if I wanted too. Ms. Rosa what would your parents do if you wanted to drop out of your silly little Catholic school. |
Dabirch Member Username: Dabirch
Post Number: 1601 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 208.44.117.10
| Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 10:27 am: | |
quote:Ndavies we have been in agreement way to often lately.
That's because you are both members of the old curmudgeon's club. Which reminds me: The next meeting is scheduled for Tuesday; please remember to pay your dues on time. |
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa
Post Number: 925 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 208.39.170.90
| Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 10:34 am: | |
quote:I know I couldn't drop out even if I wanted too. Ms. Rosa what would your parents do if you wanted to drop out of your silly little Catholic school.
I could even fathom what they would've done but I didn't go to or live in a low-income, high-unemployment, school district where the dropout rates are high no matter how the teachers perform. I never really liked any of my teachers when I was in school so I'm a bad person to ask about the roles they take in shaping children's lives. I just look at the kids who did drop out and I think they're mostly lost causes anyway. |
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander
Post Number: 1930 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244
| Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 10:45 am: | |
Personally I believe that just because the parents are low income and unemployed doesn't mean that they couldn't react the same way your parents or my parents would react to their kids dropping out and not completing high school. |
Swingline Member Username: Swingline
Post Number: 525 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 4.229.60.20
| Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 10:57 am: | |
Mauser stated: quote:People currently finishing their teaching certification are already gushing out of the State as we speak.
I suspect the exodus has much more to do with job availability and purported lifestyle benefits of other locales than it does with the compensation packages in Michigan school districts. The starting pay may not get you into that $350K loft in Royal Oak, but you know what? Stick it out for ten years (not that long, age, early 30's) and if you saved wisely, affording those trendy digs will be no problem. Get married to another teacher and you might be able to afford a Birmingham loft. The cost to taxpayers of average teacher compensation including benefits and employment taxes is in the $85K-$100K range. How many of these skilled individuals could start a business and earn that much annual profit within five years? Yes, many could but most probably could not. I know, I don't have empirical data. But I'm sure the figures for start ups and their profits are out there some where. I'm also sure that the figures will show that teachers do better than most self-employed people. I'm not complaining about teacher salaries. But I don't think teachers should either. I guess my point is that teacher compensation is just fine where it's at right now. 16% raises are not warranted. Given the economic situation in most districts, no raises are warranted. |
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 903 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42
| Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 10:58 am: | |
Many low-income "parents" are single, never-married mothers on welfare or whatever and many are merely unknown, transient sperm donors. |
Bvos Member Username: Bvos
Post Number: 1584 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.238.170.40
| Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 11:01 am: | |
Wow, Livernoisyard failed biology class. Mother's can't be sperm donors, no matter if they're known or unknown, transient or not. |
Danny Member Username: Danny
Post Number: 4355 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 141.217.174.223
| Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 11:02 am: | |
Enough with the blameworthiness for the teacher student money situation. All DPS Teachers should be happy and blessed of what they have. Trying to make themselves instant millionaires by forcing the Detroit Board of Education to raise the precentage just won't do. I'm asking all DPS Teachers to cut the fat of your cost of living and accept your what you have and what you make. GET THESE STUDENTS TO LEARN. And stop being greedy. See what the symptons of Captalism can do to the human race and their frail psyches. |
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 904 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42
| Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 11:11 am: | |
Can't males become "parents?" [Wonder how Bvos entered this planet. Hmm...] Or is having a male "parent" in Detroit such an "alien" concept that it isn't even considered to be possible. |
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa
Post Number: 926 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 208.39.170.90
| Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 11:21 am: | |
quote:Personally I believe that just because the parents are low income and unemployed doesn't mean that they couldn't react the same way your parents or my parents would react to their kids dropping out and not completing high school.
Exceptions to every rule but when you're in a school district where parents won't even wake up on time to get their kids to school then I have no faith. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this Merchy-poo. |
Dabirch Member Username: Dabirch
Post Number: 1602 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 208.44.117.10
| Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 11:27 am: | |
quote:Personally I believe that just because the parents are low income and unemployed doesn't mean that they couldn't react the same way your parents or my parents would react to their kids dropping out and not completing high school.
I know that my grandfather was low income and often unemployed while my father was growing up. The thought of the beating my dad would've taken if he told his father that he wasn't going to school runs chills down my spine. |
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa
Post Number: 927 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 208.39.170.90
| Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 11:33 am: | |
I was talking about the school district guys, not painting that broad of a brush as to what Dabirch's dad was doing 40 years ago... I thought of anyone around here you two would be ones to admit that there are lots and lots of really bad parents in metro-Detroit who just don't give a fuck. They didn't give a fuck about their lives and now they could care less about their kids lives. Shit, girls I grew up with who got pregnant and dropped out of school are living in trailer parks now. I met their parents, they were nice people but they weren't all that motivated. |
Rotation_slim Member Username: Rotation_slim
Post Number: 39 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 207.203.254.110
| Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 11:38 am: | |
Teachers are emperors with no clothes with the "we work so hard" debate. We all drive past the neighborhood schools and see the parking lot essentially empty at 3pm. We all have kids that come home and say to us "teacher had us grade our own papers". And the fact of the matter is, they have all 3 months of summer off, 2 weeks at Christmas, etc etc. Never can be forced to work an minute of overtime without being paid, Incredible benefits, Hour off during the day for "prep" hour, and the majority of teachers develop their lesson plans, and re-use them year after year.. so don't give me this I spent all summer preparing for the year ahead.. that is just garbage. I admit, there are occasional teachers who do go the extra mile, and works extra, but they are clearly the exception, not the rule. The sense of entitlement by teachers is incredible. They want a complete exemption from the rules the rest of the universe lives by, Supply and Demand. Detroit School population is shrinking, we will need less teachers, so their pay should be going down, in order to push them to move to places like Arizona where they are needed, and pay is rising. Why are they exempt from this? Also, supply and demand should keep teachers salaries low because so many folks can do what they do. Half the teachers (all lower grades) need no particular intellectual rigor to teach, they need compassion, and love kids, and some basic training. Those traits are not in particularly short supply in our society, most moms that I have met in my life qualify for the first 2, and could be easily trained. For math and Science teachers, they do bring particular traits into the classroom, and are in short supply, and they should be highly paid(more than other teachers). Bottom line is this, deep inside teachers know they got a pretty sweet gig, a much better circumstance then virtually all the rest of us who are paying their salary, so they spend hours upon hours gossiping on the staff lounge about how bad it is, just to convince themselves that they do deserve the high wage. If they don't like it so much they could move on to private industry, but we all know that would not happen as they would have to work all summer, Get only a couple days off for Christmas, and work a few weekends as well. I don't begrudge the teachers, frankly I am jealous of their gig. My mom, grandmother, aunt, uncle, and 2 siblings are teachers, and they will admit, when you really pin them down, that they have a good deal. Of course I doubt anyone on this board will admit it publicly.. they have an unspoken pact that they will all pretend the emperor has clothes on. (of course no logical or factual argument will be laid against my accusations, it will be met with any one of the following: * "You try controlling a class of 30 kids" (everyone's job is hard, get over it) * "We work day and night" (just plain bunk!) * "Low wages will send away good teachers" (no, perhaps it will do just the opposite. Maybe the only people who would do it if you lowered wage is those who are motivated by love of kids and their craft, and those who just do it for the paycheck would move onto other things.) |
Dabirch Member Username: Dabirch
Post Number: 1603 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 208.44.117.10
| Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 11:49 am: | |
Susanarosa -- I was actually agreeing with your point, in a round about way. The poor, unemployed, uneducated Detroit my father grew up in, was much different than the world today. At that point, my grandfather assumed that he was making sacrifices for his children. That he might not be able to get out of poverty, but if he made sure his kids went to school, then they would be able to break the cycle. The reality that is viewed by many today is that the cycle can't be broken. And with the way society is set up, with the job market as it is, with the lack of mobility of the ultra-poor, I tend to agree. Paying teachers more ain't going to solve the problems. But expecting a generation of hopelessly poor, disenfranchised, and marginalized citizens to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" is also not going to happen. The only answer lies in a combination of societal accountability and personal responsibility. |
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 906 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42
| Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 11:50 am: | |
Some of the teachers where I taught almost beat the kids out the door at closing time. The usual policy that a teacher should stay behind after class for a quarter to half hour to accommodate a possible parent-teacher dialog rarely was followed. Hell, parents rarely show up for mandatory parent-teacher meetings when their spoiled brats are continually underachieving, even when special evening sessions are provided. Some teachers demand "overtime" for doing anything out of their ordinary daily seven-hour routine AND OFTEN GET IT! Even monitoring the lunchroom at noon merits overtime pay at some metro Detroit schools. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on June 21, 2006) |
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa
Post Number: 928 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 208.39.170.90
| Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 11:56 am: | |
quote:The only answer lies in a combination of societal accountability and personal responsibility.
Which I believe is virtually impossible to change from the outside looking in. It's kind of like watching a boat sink from the shore and without the means to get out on the water to rescue the survivors. Total helplessness. |
1953 Member Username: 1953
Post Number: 887 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 209.104.146.146
| Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 11:58 am: | |
I support merit pay for DPS educators. They'd be broke within no time. |
Dabirch Member Username: Dabirch
Post Number: 1604 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 208.44.117.10
| Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 11:58 am: | |
quote:Total helplessness.
Of course if you are on the inside of that boat and have never been taught to swim, you kind of feel the same way... |
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa
Post Number: 929 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 208.39.170.90
| Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 12:02 pm: | |
quote:Of course if you are on the inside of that boat and have never been taught to swim, you kind of feel the same way...
Good point. Let's move to the suburbs. |
Alexei289 Member Username: Alexei289
Post Number: 1184 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.61.183.223
| Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 12:51 pm: | |
vouchers... let parents put their tax dollers where they will get their moneys worth. It works great in Canada. |
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander
Post Number: 1933 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244
| Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 1:08 pm: | |
quote:I thought of anyone around here you two would be ones to admit that there are lots and lots of really bad parents in metro-Detroit who just don't give a fuck. They didn't give a fuck about their lives and now they could care less about their kids lives.
I agree 100% with that statement. The only statement I disagreed with you is:
quote:If the kid is going to drop out, s/he is going to drop out whether the parents or teachers have anything to do with it.
I believe if the parents and teachers of Detroit cared more about whether the kids finished school the dropout rate would be lower. |
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander
Post Number: 1936 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244
| Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 1:32 pm: | |
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20060621/NEW S99/60621007
quote:Along with many borrowed from traditional Republican playbooks, like curtailing health insurance costs in public schools, merit pay for teachers
Teachers should be afraid, very afraid. |
Bob Member Username: Bob
Post Number: 1043 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 64.12.116.204
| Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 6:03 pm: | |
Teachers, parents, and everyone who cares about public schools should be very afraid of DeVos. This is a person whose family (wife and father) have gone on record saying bashing public schools. These people do not want to fix public schools, they want to kill them because they believe in religious education, which is why they bankrolled the voucher fight. They will never talk about this because it will take away votes, but if he gets elected, expect it to come forward. Wonder why he leaves out many details in his plans? Because he knows the details but if he gives them out he will surely not get elected. |
East_detroit Member Username: East_detroit
Post Number: 636 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.212.169.194
| Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 6:32 pm: | |
Lets blame the teachers, the parents, the cities, etc.... Lets forget about the kids, who are mandated to attend a school with a State determined curriculum but unequal funding. So, if you're a kid in Detroit and have to share a book and a broken building, its your fault and so are your MEAP scores. Actually, let's not. One funding, each kid gets the same amount. Institute inter-district busing and see how fast people realize that schools should be equalized. |
Pffft Member Username: Pffft
Post Number: 1015 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.221.71.17
| Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 7:43 pm: | |
No, don't deter folks like Merchantgander who are determined to punish the teachers, and don't care who gets in the way. Kids? What kids ...Damn those teachers for having three months off while I work and slave! |
Jasoncw Member Username: Jasoncw
Post Number: 186 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 67.149.141.170
| Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 8:31 pm: | |
"One funding, each kid gets the same amount. Institute inter-district busing and see how fast people realize that schools should be equalized." I agree with that. As far as the teacher problem, I think the administrators should be more involved with the teachers so that they know if someone needs to be fired and replaced. It's the administration's job to do that stuff, so they should do their job. |
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander
Post Number: 1939 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244
| Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 7:38 am: | |
Pffft where did I say punish the teachers? |
Mike Member Username: Mike
Post Number: 624 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.41.90.235
| Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 8:41 am: | |
My sister currently has a Master's in teaching, working at a charter school in Detroit and making 32 grand a year. I am sure she is willing to take one of those jobs, heck for even 40K. When the market is saturated with teachers, I do not think they are in a great barganing point. |
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 914 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42
| Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 9:43 am: | |
Seniority and tenure are important issues to union members. Getting a teaching job might mean shoving aside another teacher. Ain't gonna happen. Just see how hard the school administration and the unions work together to entrench their incompetents. How else could that happen otherwise? |
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_
Post Number: 1410 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 69.220.230.150
| Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 10:14 am: | |
quote:Lets forget about the kids, who are mandated to attend a school with a State determined curriculum but unequal funding. So, if you're a kid in Detroit and have to share a book and a broken building, its your fault and so are your MEAP scores
The problem is not funding the problem where they have to spend it. |
English Member Username: English
Post Number: 506 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.221.32.114
| Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 12:12 pm: | |
Correcting a few facts above: it's 10 weeks' vacation for teachers. Personally, I wouldn't mind if the school year was lengthened. I've been teaching for going on 8 years. Five of those summers, I've taught summer school for 4-8 weeks. Three of them, I've gone to school myself. What is this mythic "summer" of which you speak? *snicker* If teachers have it so great and have no reason to complain, then why isn't everyone teaching? My friends always say there's no way in the world they could spend two-thirds of the year with a bunch of teenagers, even for the fabulous pay, vacation, and benefits. I have no idea what's wrong with them. I'm getting paid very well to do exactly what I love. I do agree that Michigan teachers are compensated well, which is the main reason I spent my 20s here. Only my friends who are engineers and attorneys make more. (My cohort is still too young to have finished up doctoral residencies, attained tenure, or climb to the top of the corporate ladder.) As a Detroit teacher, I complained mostly about the conditions, not the pay. But now, I'm supposedly in the Promised Land. From what I'm seeing teaching elsewhere in the state and the nation, especially after starting this Ph.D on the matter, the ENTIRE public education system in the United States is in dire trouble. (Hello, China and India...) There is a LOT of C.Y.A. going on in suburban districts, and if this is our nation's "cream of the crop", I'm frightened. It's not just the teachers, stupid. It's not just the parents, the kids, or society. It's ALL of us. As a NATION, we do not value education. And I do not mean throwing more $$$ at it. Almost NO ONE ALIVE TODAY has the same work ethic and innovative, pioneering spirit that was the storied hallmark of our national character anymore. Sure, talk about lazy teachers, and I'll agree--but don't forget to talk about lazy kids who half ass their homework and cheat, parents who defend them and demand LESS homework, etc. People don't care about rigor in education... they scream their heads off if you give their kid a "B" and complain to administration that you're being too hard and unreasonable! Young teachers learn EARLY a HARD LESSON: the LESS you rock the boat, the MORE likely it is that you will achieve tenure. The current system punishes excellence, rewards mediocrity, and protects incompetence. My problem with the Republican ideas for education: there is a stupid assumption that charter, parochial and private schools will assume the growing task of educating special needs and ESL kids. The number of such kids in Detroit is HUGE, and the cost of educating them is more. By 2020, 1/3 of all American schoolkids will be on an IEP or labeled LEP. I will support vouchers IF private schools are not allowed to kick these "untouchables" out, and are forced to educate a percentage of them. I was treated badly by my first union, but I refuse to teach without the protection of one. Not because I'm incompetent, but because this is a society that loves litigation. Our union membership (which is expensive, by the way) covers a multimillion dollar insurance policy in case we are sued by someone crazy. In 6 years in Detroit, I had more than my share of nutty parents, one of whom tried to get my head to roll all the way up to Dr. Burnley's office (because I had the nerve to NOT give her skipping senior daughter an A in my elective class--she did no work). I had solid documentation, and a good rep, and my butt was saved. I dated a guy several years back who was a young teacher like me and extremely handsome. He had to be very careful NEVER to be alone with any of the teenage girls who were extremely aggressive going after him. In front of me and other staff, they would launch into hugs, rub up against him... hormones going crazy. One of these heffas complained that my friend touched her inappropriately, which proved to be a lie (as he was never alone with her, and the other kids -- boys and girls) said they saw nothing. Still, he was forced to transfer and pushed down the pay scale to a building sub. The parents threatened to sue, but there wasn't enough evidence to pursue it. I have said this on this forum so many times before, but it bears repeating: schools are a mirror of society. You have the schools that you deserve. Only because you STAND FOR IT are educators and students this lazy, and schools this ineffective. Your fault. (Message edited by English on June 22, 2006) |
Cafe Member Username: Cafe
Post Number: 1284 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 84.162.37.16
| Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 12:24 pm: | |
Wow English. I read every word. Nicely done. |
Fury13
Member Username: Fury13
Post Number: 1127 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.222.11.226
| Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 12:29 pm: | |
Hey, great post. My father was a teacher and counselor in the Detroit Public Schools. Never have I thought that teachers have it easy. They face daily challenges that few of us in other professions would take on. Children will be educated to the degree that parents are involved. |
Spartacus Member Username: Spartacus
Post Number: 123 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 209.114.251.65
| Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 12:40 pm: | |
English: It sounds like you agree that throwing additional money at teachers will not solve the underlying problems with our educational system. A lot of what you say makes sense; I'm curious what the teacher union's position is on lengthening the school year. I'd guess that they would not go for it without a commensurate increase in pay. A minor quibble: does your 10 weeks include Christmas, Winter Break and Spring Break? That sounds like 4 weeks vacation right there. Also, you don't need a union to have an insurance policy. |
Rotation_slim Member Username: Rotation_slim
Post Number: 40 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 207.203.254.110
| Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 12:41 pm: | |
Hey English.. you forgot to mention that for teaching summer school you recieved pretty decent pay... over and above your salary. |
English Member Username: English
Post Number: 507 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.221.32.114
| Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 1:20 pm: | |
Folks, you're kind. I am no saint, however, and I don't think teachers have to be. I did leave Detroit Public Schools when I was treated badly, and landed a position in one of the top districts in the state after several years of work. I'm not one of those "incompetents", or I could have never gotten this job. Rotation_slim: inaccurate. Summer school in Detroit ran about $27-28 per hour, here it's $34. I'm nearly at the top of the 10 year salary scale, and almost at a master's plus 30. We are also not paid for our time off... when I first started with Detroit, not only was there no such thing as a 26-week pay option, we weren't paid for the Christmas and Spring vacations, which no one told me. So I had the nasty surprise of a few "half checks". My students are getting a world-class education from me. I can't speak for my colleagues, but I have 2 1/2 degrees, speak a couple of languages, am bidialectal (which means I can reach some of the most at-risk kids), and have visited several foreign countries. I have a deep knowledge of my subject area (according to Pres. Bush's NCLB standards) and *my* students' test scores in writing leapfrogged from the 59th percentile to the 95th at the first school where I was hired. So yes, dear, I *do* deserve at least $1 - $2 per hour per child/teen of my time, a rate that generations of teachers fought long and hard for. My work takes more than intellect, though. It takes a lot of heart. I'd do it for free. (In fact, I did it for free from August through November 1999, because incompetent DPS didn't put me on the payroll until nearly Thanksgiving--it took me three years to pay down my credit cards). But if society is willing to compensate me fairly, I'm not going to say no, because I do think that my expertise is worth that and more. I think my job is one of the most important in society, and I treat it as such. Again, if anyone would like to become a teacher, by all means, do so. Volunteer at your kid's school, or send me an email. I have lots of contacts in several districts who'd be more than happy to work with you. Teens especially are desperate for adults to listen to them and take them seriously, I've found. They love it when I have guest speakers come in to talk about their work. I wouldn't trade what I do with anyone for the world. Great pay, benefits, and unlike 95% of their own parents, I *love* working with adolescents and teens. (If I had a nickel for every time *I* heard something major before a teen's mom or dad did... and many of my effective colleagues can say the same!) In eight years, I've affected thousands of lives, I see my students on Michigan's campus (yelling across the Diag), and many stay in touch with me. My friends who have the fancy engineering and IS jobs are regularly bored and clock-watch. Me, I love what I do. There isn't a dull moment. Some days I leave work drained. Some days I leave it crushed and feeling horrible. Some days, I'm energized and my heart is soaring. That's when you know you have more than a job... you have a calling. As far as overpaid teachers, I'm stepping outside of that realm next year. I will be an overpaid University of Michigan GSI--making about $13,000. I suppose that is the amont people think all teachers ought to earn. (Why a significant portion of teachers' unions--contingent university faculty who work for poverty wages and keep our nation's community colleges and universities going--are ignored shows the real agenda behind the debate.) |
Southwestmap Member Username: Southwestmap
Post Number: 503 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 70.229.231.102
| Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 1:23 pm: | |
I taught for ten years in a SW Detroit school and now I work in a business office. Now I can walk to the bathroom any time and I don't have to worry about anyone getting hurt or running away or falling while I'm gone. I can call my Mother, check my bank balance and/or look out the window. I could do none of those things while teaching. Unless you are a parent of a large family, you can't know the stress and tension of having all those bodies, eyes, hands and phychies (spelling wrong, I know) crowding up against you for hours. I loved teaching but I was really, really tired at the end of every day. When I was young I slept for hours when I got home. I had hundreds of papers to check, plays to supervise, fund-raisers to organize, parents to meet, records to keep (!!!)plans to write - and not during class. Really and truly - it's not what you think. It's hard, tiring work. English is right - if it's so easy and such a piece of cake, why don't you volunteer in a school. Or maybe be a Big Brother or Sister. Anyone should be able to do that right? Schedule fun, engaging time for a young person who needs an adult role-model? You spend one day trying all by yourself to keep one youngster happy and healthy and maybe you'll understand. People are jealous about that time-off. They don't understand the stress of the time-in. |
English Member Username: English
Post Number: 508 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.221.32.114
| Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 1:26 pm: | |
Forgot to address this part of the debate: Spartacus: "A minor quibble: does your 10 weeks include Christmas, Winter Break and Spring Break? That sounds like 4 weeks vacation right there." Weren't we talking about summer vacation? But you're right. Teachers only work 3/4 of the year, which is a huge incentive to teach. It has allowed me to work on my master's degree and study abroad, which is a huge incentive. I'm not a teacher who's embarrassed about my job perks, though... I use this as a selling point for friends who hate their corporate jobs, who I'm trying to convince to teach. "Also, you don't need a union to have an insurance policy." Granted. But someone has to pay for it. Why do you think healthcare is so expensive? And I'd be willing to bet you'd be tarred and feathered before you'd pay all teachers in this country six figures... so the point is moot, isn't it? |
English Member Username: English
Post Number: 509 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.221.32.114
| Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 1:28 pm: | |
Thanks to SWmap for the corroboration. Again, I always call people's bluff--if teaching is so great and luxurious, then everyone should want to do it, and the cream of the crop intellectually would be clamoring to get into schools of education. |
English Member Username: English
Post Number: 510 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.221.32.114
| Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 1:34 pm: | |
One more thing before I leave this thread: Suggested reading is Teachers Have It Easy: The Big Sacrifices and Small Salaries of America's Teachers by Dave Eggers (author of A Heartbreaking Work of Staggering Genius and founder of the 826 Valencia movement). http://www.amazon.com/gp/produ ct/1565849558/sr=8-9/qid=11509 97308/ref=pd_bbs_9/104-0874551 -3527911?%5Fencoding=UTF8 |
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette
Post Number: 964 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 68.60.177.56
| Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 1:36 pm: | |
Thanks, English. Your posts have nailed the issue. The teachers I know work all the time. They deserve recognition, respect and a decent living. My best friend lives in a fancy white suburb and teaches developmently delayed kids. She went to school for a very long time and the school district is very lucky to have her. The shit she has taken from day one would be enough to discourage a lesser person, but she sticks with it - because she believes so deeply in what she is doing. Her reward was in the last contract talks to be attacked by the people in her suburb for wanting her fellow teachers to have a contract and have decent health care benefits. They don't deserve her, but the kids she teaches do. What a fucked up situation. |
Rotation_slim Member Username: Rotation_slim
Post Number: 41 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 207.203.254.110
| Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 2:32 pm: | |
With all due respect, I was not inaccurate for pointing out that your summer school was paid above and beyond your salary. You seem to say that I was inaccurate, then went on to confirm that it was in fact accurate. I will take it on faith.. that your teaching skills are better than your debating skills. You should also point out that your Summer School was entirely voluntary, you held it up as something that infringed upon your summer.. but you choose to take the money or fulfillment, rather than the free time.. sounds like you made a good choice. Bottom Line: Second only to lack of parental involvement, the teachers union/union mentality is a major problem. You paint yourself as a teacher extraordinaire, I believe you. Now let me ask you a question: Does it bother you that teachers in your school who are "phoning it in" (be honest, they exist in your school as they do in every school) and are slackers get the same salary scale as you. Does it bother you that teachers that you know of who do not belong in a classroom are protected? Granted, teachers who are bad enough to be fired are far from the majority, but they do exist, and they exist in EVERY school out there, from Cleveland Middle School in Detroit to Andover High School in Bloomfield Hills. Now be honest, and answer my question. Would the kids you care about get a better education if teachers like you were rewarded (with higher salaries, recognition, more freedom to teach as you wish) and horrible teachers were send off to find employment elsewhere? |
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485
Post Number: 2684 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 143.231.249.141
| Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 2:48 pm: | |
Rotation, does it bother you that George W. Bush is president of the United States and is one of the richest Americans in the country? |
Spartacus Member Username: Spartacus
Post Number: 124 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 209.114.251.65
| Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 3:14 pm: | |
I'm not sure what gave you the impression GWB is one of the richest people in the country. He is not nearly as wealthy as John Kerry. But what is your point? He didn't get rich from his government salary. |
Rotation_slim Member Username: Rotation_slim
Post Number: 42 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 207.203.254.110
| Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 3:16 pm: | |
Lt... do what you can to stay to stay focused here.. this one is about "teachers".. follow along... stay with us. If you have an opinion on Teachers please share it. If you want to talk about Bush.. start another topic, although it would be off OT for this group (I wouldn't mind.. but others may) |
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485
Post Number: 2685 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 143.231.249.141
| Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 3:26 pm: | |
No, the issue is we have a lot of people in positions who are underqualified yet they are elected (or hired) to do them anyways. I just think the focus on bashing teacher unions is silly. |
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485
Post Number: 2686 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 143.231.249.141
| Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 3:27 pm: | |
Spartacus, George W. Bush made almost $700,000 last year. Sure, his salary is not much, but he has stocks and trust funds. |
Danny Member Username: Danny
Post Number: 4368 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 198.111.166.19
| Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 3:33 pm: | |
HAH! These days BASKETBALL ATHLETES make a average of 5 to 25 million dollars a year, more than the President. It's consider better to play professional basketball in the NBA than become President of the United States. Even back than in the 1920s Professional Baseball Athlete BABE RUTH makes more money than the President everyone claims. |
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485
Post Number: 2688 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 143.231.249.141
| Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 3:44 pm: | |
Yet, we say teachers are overpaid (::rolls my eyes:: ) |
Rotation_slim Member Username: Rotation_slim
Post Number: 43 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 207.203.254.110
| Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 4:58 pm: | |
OK.. little economics lesson for you: basketball players do something almost no one else can do... scarcity.. that is why they are paid too much. Think of it this way, their bosses pay them that much because fans will pay hard earned money just to watch them play, in other words, their bosses make money off them. They are worth that kind of money because they create more money than that for their owners. Is it fair?.. no opinion on that.. it is however a reality of the world we live in.. Here is a little cheat sheet for you on how the real world works: Nobility of one's profession has little to do with salary level. It does however have everything to do with your sense of fulfillment. Supply and demand has everything to do with pay scales.. perhaps it is unfair to leave nobility out of the equation.. but never-the-less that is a fact of human nature and virtually every society.. except maybe the communists. |
Metrodetguy Member Username: Metrodetguy
Post Number: 2655 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 70.228.57.202
| Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 12:28 am: | |
Ltorovia, the President makes $400,000, not $700,000. Also, GWB is not one of the richest Americans. Bob, using your line of "reasoning" the general public (other than teachers and their immediate families) should also fear a continuation of a Democratic Governor's Office. It could easily be argued that Democrats seek to maintain the status quo in public education (at the expense of students) in order to pacify teachers unions (an important voting block for Democrats). |
Jerome81 Member Username: Jerome81
Post Number: 1025 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 64.142.86.133
| Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 2:35 am: | |
These dudes make way more than I do.... and they only work 9 months a year! Sign me up! |
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette
Post Number: 974 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 68.60.177.56
| Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 2:48 am: | |
Jerome, did you read any of this thread or just the headline? |
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 932 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42
| Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 2:57 am: | |
"Rotation, does it bother you that George W. Bush is president of the United States and is one of the richest Americans in the country?" The best means to counter Margaret's anal retentivity and continual attempts at revisionism is through cold, hard facts. [Do we really want to cloud the issue with facts?] Neither of the Bushes is nowhere to be found among the Forbes 400 richest Americans. Furthermore, neither Bush is a billionaire. The poorest in the Forbes 400 list had net worths of around $900,000 and are all better off than George Bush. Where's Bush in this list? Nowhere... |
Rotation_slim Member Username: Rotation_slim
Post Number: 44 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 207.203.254.110
| Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 2:03 pm: | |
Apperantly this thread is dead... I am not surprised, toss a little logic into this thread instead of a bunch of bleeding heart weepy histrionics which normally populate the "teachers are underpaid" argument and the teachers abandon it.. it becomes much like the school parking lot at 3:20pm on a weekday.. EMPTY |
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 939 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42
| Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 3:40 pm: | |
Well, it's now about that time on a Friday. |
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485
Post Number: 2704 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 69.17.38.194
| Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 11:37 pm: | |
MetroDetGuy, anyone who makes over $250,000 in my dictionary is "rich" or "wealthy." Less than 10% of the country makes that kind of income. |
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher
Post Number: 8 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204
| Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 11:46 pm: | |
I am a teacher in Detroit. Haven't had a raise or cost of living increase in FOUR years. They took my pay (5 days worth). I spend, on average, over 500.00 per year buying kids supplies, my own supplies, plus tuition to go to school (so I can better serve my students). I am young (ok, not that young), have 9 years in, am NOT at the top of the pay scale, and I am still teaching. Why?? I love my students! I care about my students! I am a GREAT teacher and my students need me. Am I complaining (sometimes)....but come on...we deserve to live, too. DTE, the phone company and basic necessities of life all raised their prices....yet my pay didn't go up in any way shape or form, it went down! Just pay us enough to keep up with our bills. I don't want another job. I am helping kids. It's who I am. Anyone blame me for this? TOUGH. I am keeping my job......for better or worse. All I ask is that I can support my family, just give us what will bring us up to the cost of living increase over the last 4 years when we weren't getting anything. I'll keep paying out of pocket for my students' supplies, etc. Why not? I knew what the job was all about before I signed up for this tour of duty. Like I said before, I am in it for the kids..... |
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher
Post Number: 9 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204
| Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 12:16 am: | |
Some of you posted about our luxurious vacations. Let's not forget the 4 hours of work I bring home each night (papers to grade, lesson plans to do, etc). I stay after school many nights to help a kid. I attend the games and such after school, I am there in the summer making my room ready for next year, I attend class and do homework for those classes (so I can better serve my students). I put in far more hours than someone who works a traditional job. Many times I am unable to do family things or have a social life because of the work I do at home (during my so-called vacations). Just wanted everyone to know that my day doesn't end at 3:30.....I am up until at least 12 working on things for work or my classes. BTW, I am required to take so many semester hours in so many years to keep my teaching certificate. Yes, I knew this going in, and I don't regret a minute of it......and I am NOT making even close to 70k a year! I WISH!! Yes, some of those old crusties needs to go, there are plenty where I work that could use das boot out the door.....please acknowledge the young/doing their job, or however you want to put it teachers....we are busting butt out here trying to help kids. |
Royce Member Username: Royce
Post Number: 1659 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 75.9.243.171
| Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 2:48 am: | |
Well said, Detroitteacher. Well said. |
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher
Post Number: 11 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204
| Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 7:17 am: | |
Thanks. it needed to be said. Don't get me wrong.....those at the TOP of the pay scale probably shouldn't get those raises, and certainly not 15.6%. They should try paying the teachers, like me, who are going broke working for DPS. Top level teachers don't pay out of pocket for Medical Insurance. I do. They don't have to pay for classes. I do. I am highly qualified (according to NCLB), some of them are not. Not to toot my own horn, but we youngins need something extra in our pay more than the old crusties do....I drive a beat up old "hooptie", most of them drive Jags and Caddys. I'm not knocking them....but most of them do earn 70k a year. I earn alot less. I mean ALOT. |
Themax Member Username: Themax
Post Number: 33 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 69.246.123.118
| Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 11:27 am: | |
What do Detroit school admins make and do they really do 2x or 3x as much work as most teachers? A teacher I know gets no support from her principal regarding enforcing discipline. |
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher
Post Number: 12 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8
| Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 12:26 pm: | |
I am not slighting administration in the buildings. What really needs to change is all the waste at the Detroit Board of Ed. I wouldn't want to be in administration in Detroit.....I also get no support from the top regarding ANY issues......I am not here to lambast my colleagues but your friend is not entirely wrong. |
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485
Post Number: 2711 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 69.17.38.194
| Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 12:57 pm: | |
Principals, assistant principals and department heads get NO MONEY. There are TEACHERS who already make more money than administrators, who usually have extra degrees by their names. Ridiculous. That's why some of the best administrators in the district are leaving the district via retirement, relocation, etc. It's not worth it! How would you feel if you were an assistant principal and you realized that some of the teachers you monitor (and have authority over) make more money than you? Again, ridiculous! Note: Detroit school administrators are not part of a union. Thank the Engler-led Republican legislature for taking this basic right away. (Message edited by ltorivia485 on June 24, 2006) |
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher
Post Number: 13 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204
| Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 1:34 pm: | |
Itorivia: I agree, BUT.....my beef is with those higher than building admin. Even so, without TEACHERS the schools won't run and you MUST hire good teachers who care....Teachers are in direct contact with the kids each day! Building admin usually isn't. I was there prior to Admin unions being ousted and I am there now. No union is why I won't become an Admin. Too many uncertainties (there are with teachers, too...such as layoffs each year but it's not as bad as Admin). I've seen great Principals and APs leave the district and that is SAD. Many teachers are going to leave before too long, many GOOD teachers, because of the Ivory Tower not managing things right. Another SAD note. I'll stick with it as long as I can...like I said, I am in it for the KIDS and nothing more. |
Bvos Member Username: Bvos
Post Number: 1610 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 70.228.2.1
| Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 10:06 pm: | |
Detroitteacher, I can tell you personally that you are absolutely correct about the crusty, non-Highly Qualified teachers taking up spots that younger teachers can and should be taking (check the DPS literature or website(under Human Resources in the Intranet) on Highly Qualified Teachers and compare it to my screen name. You'll figure it out.). Unfortunately these old birds know the DPS Exec. Dirs. can't get their shit together on just about anything important, so they make no attempts to get HQ because they know the Admin. won't be able to follow through on their threats. Even if the Admin. did follow through on their threats they have enough union seniority to bump out any teacher they want in an assignment where they are HQ or don't need to be HQ. I sometimes wish I could fire folks myself for the sake of the kids who have to have these crusty critters and have what little interest they had in learning killed off. There are a lot of these older teachers that I'd like to tell to just retire. They seem to hate kids, hate their job, hate their supervisor, hate their pay, basically hate life. They could retire when ever they want, but they choose to hang on for some massocistic reason. Good luck to you. I'll assure you that you're attitude is shared with a silent majority of DPS teachers. I've been blown away by the qualifications and dedication of teachers in the DPS I've meet this year. If you have any question s about your HQ status, be sure to give my office a call by Monday. We're shutting down forever after that. |
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher
Post Number: 14 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204
| Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 10:31 pm: | |
Thanks. I know for a fact I am HQ. I am 6 months shy of 2 Master's Degrees, have taken the state test and have my portfolio. There are quite a few crusty critters in my building that were told to retire but won't. The Board of Ed in Detroit can't possibly get HQ teachers to fill all of their positions. Most have only a Bachelors, haven't taken the test and have nothing to put into a portfolio. All of the teachers I come across that are relatively new (10 years or less) are quite dedicated but are beibng ousted from what they love because of these crusties. I won't be one of them. I also have a Special Ed qualification (or I will in 6 months), have my MAT and MLD and am also going to school for Autistic endorsement. Many of the critters can't afford to retire because they have been bilking the board for so long, driving their Jags and have house payments they can't afford otherwise. Now tell me who needs any type of a raise. I say, if you can't give to all, don't give to any. DPS just can't afford to give raises. End of story. I'd love to have up to date books and materials for my students instead of the textbook I am using from the 80s. I spend most of my "vacation" time looking for current and relevant resources for my students. I even bought each of them copies of Hamlet (for a buck each) so that they would have something to take home......I love my job (I really don't consider it a job, per se....it's more like a daily adventure). I'm not scared (yes, I'm white), I am well respected because I am honest with my kids, treat them fairly and always listen to their side of the story. I am flexible. I take into account their home lives (some of which don't leave room for homework or buying extra materials). I always allow and welcome student opinions and have been known to have them sway me because of their debate skills. ALL this from someone who took a pay cut for the sake of the kids...... |
Bvos Member Username: Bvos
Post Number: 1612 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 70.228.2.1
| Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 11:25 pm: | |
Most teachers doing Gen. Ed. in your position are HQ because of the MTTC. However with your Sp. Ed. endorsement I'd highly recommend you give me a call on Monday. There are a lot of Education schools who are not giving their graduates the proper information they need to know to become HQ. I've talked to dozens of Sp. Ed. teachers who are newly certified as Sp. Ed. teachers but their endorsement is essentially worthless because they haven't completed a few simple steps to be HQ upon the granting of the Sp. Ed. endorsement. I don't know which portfolio you completed, but the HQ portfolio is its own thing. It's not like a portfolio you'd do for an MAT. Also I can hook you up with a couple of boxes of books for your class if you come Monday as well. I might be able to do it on Tuesday, but there's no guarantees there. It's my last day on the job and there's lots to wrap up. 866-3796, ask for Brian. |
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher
Post Number: 15 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204
| Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 12:07 am: | |
Brian: I'd be delighted to come by. I have to drop off my Prof Cert as my old one expires at the end of the month. I'd also be happy to have books. I have to go to the Welcome Center to drop off my Cert. I am not, as of yet, Highly Qualified in LD. I attend a great University and they have been great in insuring that our Certification is correct. They are members or quailified by NCATE. No one else has had issues in getting the endorsment so far.....and I am pretty well read on that point. But still, would love to meet you and check on things anyway. Will call early Monday morning. |
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485
Post Number: 2712 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 69.17.38.194
| Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 12:15 am: | |
Detroitteacher, In what subjects are you getting your Master's degrees? |
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher
Post Number: 16 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204
| Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 12:22 am: | |
Well, I am getting THREE Master's. One is in Teaching and Learning and another is in Special Educaiton/Learning Disabilities and the other is (or is going to be) Autistic Education. I might just get the endorsment for the AI. Not sure yet. My Special Ed will allow me to bypass many classes that are in both programs. Basically, all in the fields of Education. I teach English but have no desire to get a Master's in that....can't do much more with it than teach anyway. I really always wanted to teach Autistically Impaired kids anyway, so I am shooting for the gold! |
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher
Post Number: 21 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8
| Posted on Monday, June 26, 2006 - 2:58 pm: | |
Brian: Sorry I couldn't call today and meet with you. I took my son downtown with me and we drove around for hours just looking at the amazing buildings. We did lunch and I just completely forgot about life. I wish you luck and thanks for the offer. |
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485
Post Number: 2718 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 143.231.249.141
| Posted on Monday, June 26, 2006 - 3:02 pm: | |
Jeeez! Well, I'm looking at a dual Master's in Educational Studies (Social Foundations) and American History with a possible concentration in Black World Studies at Michigan. In addition, I hope to take a few urban history courses in the Urban Planning department. I have no idea if this is possible since Michigan does not really offer a Master's in History program. |
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher
Post Number: 22 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8
| Posted on Monday, June 26, 2006 - 3:13 pm: | |
One of my colleagues is working on her Doctorate in Urban Studies/AA History. She is pretty knowledgeable. She taught at Eastern for a while and decided she would be better utilized in DPS. She is getting ready to leave because of all the red tape.....she is an awesome teacher and I really benefit alot from co-teaching with her. In summer school we team-taught and had a blast (she's black, I'm white) and we offered kids different perspectives on things (from Romeo and Juliet to 50Cent, the real one and Curtis Jackson). I can say that I find those subjects in which you are studying fascinating. I wish you luck and we can always use good teachers at DPS so keep teaching in mind when you decide what to do with your career path. DPS kids need dedicated people who can explain things the way they really are, not just how some teacher wants them to think. I teach my students to question everything and to form their own opinions about an array of subjects. That is what they will have to do in the real world. Go figure, I teach English and I always tie what we are learning into history. Good luck, sounds like you have some intriguing subjects to study. |
Bvos Member Username: Bvos
Post Number: 1618 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.238.170.33
| Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 8:58 am: | |
Detroitteacher, It won't work out to do an evaluation today. Be sure to take the Elementary #83 MTTC test when you take your Sp. Ed. MTTC tests. This will make you HQ K-12 in your Sp. Ed. endorsement areas. Hope you have a much needed relaxing summer! |
Bvos Member Username: Bvos
Post Number: 1619 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.238.170.33
| Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 9:01 am: | |
Oh boy, this is going to get ugly this summer: District asks unions for $105 million
quote:"This budget has little, if any, flexibility," Dori Freelain, the district's chief financial officer, said.
quote:...leaders of the unions, representing about 19,000 employees, said they don't intend to give up the money.
http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll /article?AID=/20060627/NEWS01/ 606270417 |
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher
Post Number: 29 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 207.74.168.127
| Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 9:57 am: | |
Hmmmmm, we already loaned them money.....do they want body parts next? |
Paulmcall
Member Username: Paulmcall
Post Number: 746 Registered: 05-2004 Posted From: 68.40.119.216
| Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 1:08 pm: | |
Talk about fiddling while Detroit is burning. These teachers should wake up and smell the coffee. They are about to become an endangered species like city workers if things don't change for the better fast. No money and soon to be no students means no need for your services. They should be filling out resumes for other teaching positions outside of Detroit. The milk has dried up from the sacred cow. |
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher
Post Number: 30 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 207.74.168.127
| Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 1:49 pm: | |
I'm marketable so I'm not worried....ANY MILLIONNAIRE SUGAR DADDYS IN HERE WANTING A YOUNG HIP TEACHER?? No seriously, I can pretty much write a ticket for a job with my credentials. |
Paulmcall
Member Username: Paulmcall
Post Number: 750 Registered: 05-2004 Posted From: 68.40.119.216
| Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 8:15 pm: | |
Count yourself lucky because there should be a glut of teachers for out of state schools soon. |
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher
Post Number: 33 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204
| Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 10:04 pm: | |
I count my blessing each and every day! I am a good teacher and have some extra skills and degrees that districts want. I am not going to abandon DPS though, they'll have to abandon me first. I will need a STRIKE Sugar Daddy though! HA |