  Tetsua Member Username: Tetsua Post Number: 669 Registered: 01-2004 Posted From: 68.61.194.237 |
The transit study findings are supposed to be released on the 22nd, innit? Any predictions? | ||
Herbpowell Member Username: Herbpowell Post Number: 12 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 69.212.62.132 |
I have no idea about the study over my head in a technical sense. I do predict though that this is going to happen and sooner than people think. I think Ann Arbor and UofM really sees Detroit as a partner and a place it wants to be connected with, unlike the OC. I think the coridor between the two will see a ton of growth in the next couple of decades. All the involved parties really want this to happen, sure LBP and croonies will try to stop it but it it is such a high priority for both that it will happen. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 901 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
All AA wants is a fast way to fly out of Dodge. That means Romulus--the airport and back. AA folk going to Detroit in large numbers? Are you nuts? | ||
Wsukid Member Username: Wsukid Post Number: 148 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 69.14.145.38 |
Just to let you all know again the transit options for the study have yet again been delayed. They will not come out with a decision for what type of mode of transit until the SEMCOG october meeting. For me this was the piece I wanted to see so this is again a disappointment. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3899 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 24.11.154.56 |
AA to the airport would still be a start, and it makes sense. At this time, anything is an improvement over halving to drive nearly every where. There is currently no freedom in transit. You either drive or you don't get anywhere. Freedom of movement is limited like few other big metros in the country. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1775 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 70.228.2.13 |
Livernoisyard, are you nuts? Please, that was sarcasm, right? Let me tell you personally that the UM crowd has a pretty big delegation of folks who are into Detroit, but are literally held back because of transportation issues. And even among the UM crowd which isn't "in to Detroit," i.e. Greek system kids, even these people still take plenty of outings to Detroit for concerts and parties and games, and certainly wouldn't shun reliable rapid transit, especially since many of them are from Chicago or NY and are quite used to it. A2 needs to be more connected to Detroit. We need to make it seem less distant and less inconvenient. A2 is a powerhouse of human capital because it holds the no. 2 or 3 public school in America...we need to plug this into Detroit. The best example I can think of is school of Education teaching candidates...most of them get student-teacher hours in by traveling to nearby Canton, Westland, Chelsea, etc., with only the most intrepid traveling to Detroit to get urban education experience. I have been told, by those with high rank in that School of Ed, that more teacher candidates who are interested in urban education would teach in Detroit, if only there was reliable transit connecting the two places. Like Lmich says, our freedom of movement is limited way too much. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1776 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 70.228.2.13 |
Not to mention all the UM students who live in Detroit or right near it i.e. Dearborn or GP...we don't all have cars. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 464 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 35.12.21.229 |
Prediction: The study will be released with great fanfare and speeches. Then it will take its place on the shelf with all the other studies. After a few years, someone will get another grant and do another study that reaches more or less the same conclusions, but with cost estimates revised upward. | ||
Eric_c Member Username: Eric_c Post Number: 781 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.73.194.208 |
...but, hey, at least some folks will have gotten some paychecks, right? | ||
Jjw Member Username: Jjw Post Number: 114 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 68.33.56.156 |
Hello?????? Doesn't Detroit need a fast way to Dodge???? | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 465 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 35.12.21.229 |
I forgot to add that this present study will probably call for the hiring of consultants, who will shuffle paper and speeches for a few years. Then they'll finish up and recommend that new consultants be hired to determine if another study is required. Those consultants will declare that a special consultant will be needed to figure out how to get more tax dollars for another study. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4350 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 141.217.174.223 |
Too much talk!!! WE NEED REGIONAL TRANSIT NOW!!! | ||
Haydenth Member Username: Haydenth Post Number: 177 Registered: 05-2005 Posted From: 67.107.50.35 |
Danny, you gonna build it? | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 777 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.242.215.8 |
I went to a TRU, Transit Riders United, meeting last night. They said the results of the Detroit to Ann Arbor mass transit study would be released June 28. Those results will include projected ridership, cost, etc for each of the five plans being considered. SEMCOG will then hold a series of public comment meetings in the following months. A decision on which plan to pursue will be made in October. TRU is a non-profit organization dedicated to improving transportation access and mobility in Greater Detroit. TRU's Web site: www.detroittransit.org One of the five plans being considered is one put forward by TRU. That plan calls for a commuter rail line between Detroit and Ann Arbor with stops in Ann Arbor, Ypsilanti, Metro Airport, Dearborn and Midtown. That plan also advocates setting up a streetcar line to feed the commuter line. The lightrail line would run east from Dearborn along Michigan Avenue to downtown and then up Woodward to 7 Mile. Here's a link to the proposal: www.detroittransit.org/Ann%20A rbor%20Detroit.pdf Also of interest at that meeting, the head of the Woodward Avenue Action Association or WA3, made a presentation about how it is pushing for lightrail up Woodward between at least downtown and Birmingham and perhaps as far north as Pontiac. State Rep. Marie Donigan, D-Royal Oak, also spoke about that plan and how the state legislature and MDOT is in the process of finding money to fund a study for a Woodward lightrail line. She seemed quite optimistic about the whole idea, saying this is something a lot of prominent politicians are speaking about publicly in Lansing. Barbara Hansen, head of the Detroit Transportation Corp. which runs the People Mover, also spoke. She said the city is looking at establishing mass transit lines up Woodward, Michigan, Gratiot and along an interurban loop inside the city that sort of follows the Davison Highway. She didn't devulge many details about these plans. If you haven't already, I suggest checking out TRU. That group is well on its way to becoming a lobby for mass transit equivalent to what the NRA is for gun owners. They're a small group, but they're becoming louder, making more and more powerbrokers listen to them. You can check them out on their Web site: www.detroittransit.org or they will also have a table set up inside the Fisher Building during the Comerica Tastefest on June 30 through July 4. | ||
Tetsua Member Username: Tetsua Post Number: 670 Registered: 01-2004 Posted From: 68.60.110.77 |
How could she drop a bomb like this and not give any details ... arrrgghh? Sounds like good stuff though (being optimistic). Thanks for the info, when's the next meeting? | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 778 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.242.215.8 |
Schedule of upcoming TRU meetings: June 26, 6:30 p.m. Communication Committee June 27, noon Finance Committee June 29, noon and 6:30 p.m. Vision Committee June 30 - July 4, TRU table at Tastefest July 13, 6:30 p.m. Rapid Transit Initiatives Committee July 13 Get on the bus rally for SMART at Campus Martius July 14-15, TRU table at Spirit of Detroit Music Festival at State Fairgrounds July 17, 6 p.m. Riders Voice Committee August 8, 7 p.m. TRU Board meeting All meetings are held in the TRU office in the Guardian Building, 500 Griswold, Suite 1650 | ||
1630 Member Username: 1630 Post Number: 38 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 71.159.22.7 |
Am Not Holding Breath | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 467 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 35.12.21.67 |
Haiku: They wanted transit But would not raise their taxes The plans went nowhere Or in 1630's style: Show Me The Money | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1551 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Yeah, but this time, they do have the money--$100 million of it. That should be plenty to start a spiffy new commuter rail service. | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 1938 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
Most rail systems cost billions of dollars so 100 mil isn't much. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1552 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
If you're building several dozen miles of subway, then yes, you're looking at billions of dollars. If you're looking to start a commuter rail line (buy train equipment, build stations) on an existing right-of-way, then you're looking at $1-2 million per mile. I haven't seen a heavy-rail subway as one of the five proposals, though, so it looks like the $100 mil should go a long way. Knowing the facts helps to form a reasonable opinion. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3902 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 24.11.154.56 |
Burnsie, Why keep pushing you pessimism? We got your point in your first post. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 468 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 35.12.22.228 |
From Detroit News, 8/29/05: "...SEMCOG, which will administer the grant, could not provide specific cost estimates for the Ann Arbor-to-Detroit mass transit plan. The group also could not specifically project how many people would use it..." ... "SEMCOG...in July 2001 estimated a bus rapid-transit network would cost nearly $2 billion to build, while building a light-rail system could top $8 billion." ... "Roadblocks in Metro Detroit include: Job sprawl; there is not one concentrated area of Metro Detroit where a large majority of people work. Lack of a regional transportation authority that could oversee a project. Lack of local and state funding." | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1773 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.68 |
That is because they hadn't run the numbers then. That is what they are studying now.
That was estimated for the entire region!
I think the region is well aware of our true roadblocks. I'll leave it to the experts to figure out the technical feasiblility. There are many regions of the country with worse job sprawl and mass transit. But what came first, the chicken (job sprawl) or the egg (no transit)? | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 70 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
A one half cent county sales tax is proposed to pay for this by transit advocates. This is not the same as a state sales tax and is presently illegal under the state constitution. Changing the laws to raise several hundred million per year or any other means is the key. No matter the source, it makes no difference. SEMCOG estimates in the SpeedLink study shows that the taxpayers must come up with as much as $700 Million per year (operating costs only) and maybe more for this to work as an enhanced bus system is needed to make this a regional system. This will mean that the cost for each taxpayer will be $150 - $500 in non-user fees depending on many undetermined factors. Again, the key is money because unless we can pay for this project it will likely remain on the drawing boards as operating support from both user and non-user fees are among requirements to obtain federal grants and justify the costs. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1775 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.68 |
A couple of things: *I would take the speedlink study with a grain of salt, it wasn't done as an in depth transportation plan, but rather a document to support a largely predetermined conclusion. *$700 Million per year, per 4.5-5 million people is $140-$156 per year, not $150-$500. *That sounds like a pretty low price to pay for what would be the most extensive new transit system in the country. Especially when considering the benefits or job growth and property values. | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2677 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 69.17.38.194 |
Here are my questions since TRU wants light-rail: 1) Who is the ridership? If it's mostly poor people (which I am assuming it will be within the city of Detroit), Detroiters will not want to ride it. Right now, I'm currently living in DC and while I do have gripes about the Metro system here, it has its advantages. It's underground, fast, consistent, and weeds out the criminal and poor element. I don't have to worry about being around these people unless I have to ride the bus. If anyone can explain this to me, I will appreciate it because the majority of Detroiters (at least middle-class ones) do NOT ride the local bus system. It's terrible, filthy and slow. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 279 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 24.192.25.47 |
Yes, unfortuntely Detroit's transit system is quite socioeconomically separated. I took SMART downtown for a Tigers game once and the driver stopped the bus in the middle of Highland Park at midnight, and began arguing with an apparent crackhead who tried to steal someone's phone...then he got off the bus to look for the person that lost the phone. The other bus riders were formulating plans to steal the bus. That was a good time. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3904 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 24.11.154.56 |
Wait, L, so poor people shouldn't be able to ride the bus, or that somehow the division by class is something admirable and right? It's a transit systems job to move people around their regions, it's not their job to decide who and who they don't want to ride their system. Help me understand where you're coming from, because I hope I'm misunderstanding you. If this really is the case, than Detroit doesn't need a region-wide mass transit system. It is the job of transit to find popular routes, period, not find and divide routes based on someone's race or class. | ||
Jjw Member Username: Jjw Post Number: 115 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 68.33.56.156 |
Right now, I'm currently living in DC and while I do have gripes about the Metro system here, it has its advantages. It's underground, fast, consistent, and weeds out the criminal and poor element. I don't have to worry about being around these people unless I have to ride the bus. If anyone can explain this to me, I will appreciate it because the majority of Detroiters (at least middle-class ones) do NOT ride the local bus system. It's terrible, filthy and slow. Wow---now we refuse to ride metro with poor people?????? i can understand not wanting to hang with criminals but poor people?? Where the hell does this guy get off??? geeze---- By the way, I live in Baltimore and use the metro daily and have also used the DC metro on a regular basis---NEWSFLASH----Poor people are riding it with me and I don't shit my pants!!! | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2678 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 69.17.38.194 |
Jjw, I ride the Metro subway system during rush to and from work. It is not cheap when you take distance to locations into consideration. I usually avoid the busses, especially at night or in shady neighborhoods. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 912 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
"I usually avoid the busses, especially at night or in shady neighborhoods." What makes a neighborhood shady? Trees or tall buildings, perhaps? Margaret Drysdale: "It's a pity that there's no Purple Line in DC like in Evanston. Now I'm forced to ride with commoners or worse!" | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 74 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
The best solution to leave things alone. If it works then leave it alone. It was DARTA that caused the Livonia opt out by using scare tactics and false propaganda. It's most unfortunate that DARTA, MDOT SEMCOG and the city of Detroit all want multi-billion freeways to carve up the city of Detroit and nearby suburbs. This will cause more urban sprawl, a further decline of jobs in Detroit and higher taxes. Is this what you want? If so, then the present DARTA agreement is for you. If not, then please support my cause to improve mass transit because I don't talk about it. Instead I get out and made it happen. In fact, there is new evidence that I can bring back bus service to the transit supportive city of Livonia by restoring state transit money. Since my website is not welcome by some DYer's I'm being polite to not post it. It is not spam and is very transit supportive. Seriously, we should fight the trucking lobbyists in Michigan. They support the DARTA with donations because they know the facts in my website very well. And they HATE my website and do not want it known at all. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 280 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 24.192.25.47 |
I would be willing to bet that the trucking lobby feels the same as we do about your website: We don't hate it. We literally can't recite it back to you, don't remember it, don't think about it, don't care. If you have "new evidence" that YOU AND YOU ALONE ARE THE TRANSIT SAVIOR, by all means, please post it here. HERE. Now. We'll wait. | ||
Rosedaleken Member Username: Rosedaleken Post Number: 190 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 68.43.122.151 |
Multi-billion dollar freeways? Last time I checked, the current transportation policy was to repair existing roads, not build new ones. Do you know something no one else does? | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 75 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 69.136.155.244 |
A prediction: There will never be a self-imposed one half cent county sales tax for mass transit as long as the voters continue to perceive the DDOT and SMART bus systems as dysfunctional partners who could care less about conveniencing their ridership. I paid $51.89 in property taxes to SMART last year and I'll be damned if I'll vote to pay a nickle more in property or sales taxes for any bus or mass transit system until there is evidence that a single bus system can be operated in this region and that it can put it's customer's needs first. Show me a transit authority that can do that and then I'll entrust them with more of MY money to build and operate a light rail system, too.
I fail to see the equivalence, now or in the future. The TRU is an activist organization with maybe a thousand members that lobbies government to spend more of the taxpayer's money on mass transit. The NRA is a service organization with four million members that lobbies government when necessary to prevent them from passing laws that infringe on citizens' Constitutional rights. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 469 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 35.12.24.166 |
Trainman wrote, "If so, then the present DARTA agreement is for you." Uh, I thought DARTA was ruled illegal by the courts? | ||
Trufan Member Username: Trufan Post Number: 11 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 68.163.197.39 |
To clear things up, Transportation Riders United is a non-profit organization that works with diverse partners including DDOT, SMART, Detroit Chamber, politicians, current and future transit riders, and business owners to improve transportation access for all people. TRU has never hired a lobbyist. TRU advocates for a more efficient use of the people's money, and giving citizens the opportunity to decide how they would like to spend their money. SMART and DDOT might not run amazing bus systems, but, it is wrong to believe that they are opperating without riders' interests in mind. SMART and DDOT will continue to be hampered by a lack of efficient rail lines which reduce opperating expenses for other transit systems around the country. All those who continue to push for a transit agency merger I would like you to visit chicago, New York City, San Francisco, San Diego and Washington DC and tell me how bad their transit systems are because they are provided by a combination of agencies. SMART and DDOT serve much different purposes just like METRA, CTA and PACE all serve different purposes in Chicago. Coordination (which SMART AND DDOT already do, though not as well as I would like) is the key to successful regional transit, not necessarily merger. Please, before you badmouth organizations, whether it is Transportation Riders United or anyone, please at least read their founding statements or other information so that you can come to the conclusion logically, not through the strange concept in your head. Also, Trainman, stop blaming DARTA for an action by a city government (Livonia), which had more to do with their inability to see the importance of Transit than it had with an organization that was stripped of all its powers. I certainly don't remember any scare Tactics by DARTA nor false propoganda, they didn't have any money to produce propoganda | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 1190 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.73.205.142 |
Hey E_hemingway, I was at the TRU meeting last night too. One interesting thing that came out of the meeting (among others) is that it appears that DARTA is dead for the forseeable future, and that may not be a bad thing. The smaller pilot projects such as the Ann Arbor-Detroit line and the potential Woodward line project stand a better chance of happening because of the smaller scale, and the smaller area which would be taxed (e.g. Wayne & Washtenaw counties only). IMO a successful pilot project (or two) would then get more interest and momentum going for a more complete regional system. (Btw I'm tempted to attend the transit initiatives committee on July 13... it sounds like they will get down into the nitty gritty of the 5 alternatives for the Detroit-Ann Arbor line.) | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 76 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 69.136.155.244 |
Wow, where to begin with Trufan's post that attempts to "clear things up", yet does so while looking through some very rose-colored glasses. First off, I wasn't badmouthing TRU in my previous post, which I wrote after visiting their website. If we are ever going to get a light rail system here in Metro Detroit, it will take the efforts of activist groups like TRU to make it happen.
Nobody ever said they hired a lobbyist, but are you really trying to imply that TRU's activism does not constitute lobbying? TRU once joined in a lawsuit filed against SEMCOG, they have successfully worked to defeat bus fare increases and they have filed public comments arguing against proposed highway expansion projects. If that isn't lobbying, what is it?
Then why did TRU have to create the "Riders Voice Committee"? Why wasn't there a regional transit map showing the DDOT and SMART routes until TRU shamed them into finishing the job TRU started? Why does it take some people two hours to go to work by bus simply because SMART and DDOT cannot coordinate their routes and schedules?
So by this curious logic, all we have to do here in Metro Detroit is create a third transit agency to run a light rail system and then all will be well with DDOT and SMART. Other cities with multiple competent agencies that work together have produced good results. However, there has been no evidence here of a working relationship between DDOT and SMART and I'll leave the subject of their relative competencies for others to debate. My point is that maintaining the status quo with our bus systems will hinder the support and development of any light rail project here in Metro Detroit. | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 75 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
Trufan, I still want to debate you in public. But you won't. You think we should pay more taxes but you are wrong. It's the users and those who benefit and want rail that should pay and not the taxpayers. We already have just about the highest transit taxes in the country and it's a fact that Chicago pays less. Yet, you and the TRU and M.O.S.E.S advocate for even higher taxes. I would go away if people would just leave my money alone and let me decide for myself. But, I can't because of much false propagands and hype. I lost my bus service in Livonia because of scare tactics. The voters are getting angry with mass transit tax increase advocates who refuse to debate the real issues in public until after we are tricked into another tax increase. I work in the transportation industry and I know what needs to be done to make mass transit work. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1555 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Wow. Tons of misinformation since yesterday afternoon. I thought this thread was about the proposed Ann Arbor-Detroit transit study. Apparently not.... Ltorivia, you should be smacked. Metro doesn't discriminate, and it's not the goal of Metro to "weed out" any poor or undesirable elements. You obviously don't ride much, do you? If you think the subway is expensive, try driving in DC. Good luck. And Trainman? Geez, educate yourself.
Do you have a source? Last I checked, the Detroit region pays something like $20 per capita per year for transit. That's among the lowest in the nation, and pretty close to third-world levels. Is it any surprise that third-world service is the result? Then there's this gem:
Apparently, the concept that transit riders are also taxpayers has eluded you. It's not just the users who benefit--it's everyone who benefits from good transit. Aside from riders, property owners benefit from increased property values, employers benefit from their employees having reliable transportation, drivers benefit from less cars on the road. If you want to go "every man for himself", I suggest you start looking into purchasing your own personal island. | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 1941 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
I haven't read one thing that suggest that it won't cost over a billion dollars if the decision is to build a rail system. I know you think you have all the answers in D.C. but like most thing you talk about youare wrong. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1556 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Nyah nyah, you're wrong. Spare me. What is your knowledge of transit systems? The figures I have quoted are typical of the industry, and based on actual implementation. In 1997, MDOT (yes, THAT MDOT) released a study estimating a cost of $100 million to start THREE commuter rail lines from downtown Detroit to Mount Clemens, Pontiac, and Ann Arbor. If it costs billions of dollars to start a commuter rail line, then you've been screwed.
It might help to start reading something, then. Anything. Ya know, cost estimating is part of the reason they do these studies--or has no one proven that yet either? | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 151 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 63.85.13.248 |
I find it terrible anyone on this board would say things such as the DC's metro weeds out the poor! This shows me how much many of you know about the plight of the average transit rider (particularly here in Detroit). We should be working at ways to improve levels of service. All of this talk of mode type does not mean anything if we are not servicing those that need this the most: 1). the poor 2). Business community 3). Medical facilities In addition there is not a whole lot of socio-economic difference between the riders of SMART and DDOT. I ride both systems. If anything there is a race difference, but for the most part, the folks that use the system due so either because they are poor. You can say all you want about rich whitie in the suburbs riding the SMART system downtown, but maybe whitie riding the SMART bus ain't so rich, and parking downtown is expensive. You are also not seeing that the SMART busses fill up on their reverse trips from the city to the suburbs bringing the poor inner-city users to jobs in the suburbs. Supporting buses also supports the notion of fewer parking lots downtown, and helps to unclog freeways during morning commutes. | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 1942 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
Wow 1997 number that is relevant. Shit why even bother with the study it has already been done. You keep talking about a 100 mil that would go towards building the rail line but there won't be 100 mil. The study alone will cost millions, and then they will spend millions debating about what should be built. You need to realize how politics work. In the end we will be lucky if anything actually gets built. If something is built the funds the gov have given us we will be lucky if it 5%. So you keep living in you fantasy world and I will stick with the real world. The People Mover cost a lot more than 100 mil. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1557 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
I'll have both of my Hill staffer roommates explain politics to me when I get home tonight. Thanks for the advice. There is no reason the 1997 MDOT study could not be implemented. I quote that figure because it is from the most recent completed study available. The current study will update the figures for the Ann Arbor-Detroit route. Given that inflation has been low since 1997, though, I hardly think it would cost $1 billion for even the entire 120 mile system proposed by MDOT, unless of course, inflation has averaged 29% in the past 9 years (which it has not). The DPM cost $200 million in 1986 dollars. That's an apples-to-oranges comparison to commuter rail, though. The DPM uses expensive, clunky technology, and also required construction of an elevated guideway. For a commuter rail option, the technology is predictable and the track is in place, but might require some upgrading, depending on the speeds desired. Stations would need to be built, and locomotives and passenger cars would need to be purchased (You can get these from Chicago's Metra for $1 each.) That's really about it. And yes, I too will be surprised if anything gets built. So many taxpayers in Southeast Michigan have already made up their minds that transit is a waste of money, yet they wonder why jobs keep fleeing to other cities. Maybe businesses realize that Detroit doesn't care to invest in itself. | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 1944 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
That is a good idea they might be able to give you a clue about how much money will be left once everyone gets their hands on it. The only thing I you suggest is that you breakup the session so you don't have to take it all in at once. I would hate for you to miss out on something important. Good luck with your studies because you have a lot to learn. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1558 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Merchantgander, why don't you go hang out with Karl, Gildas, and Craigd? You can all sit around and put each other down with canned barbs while having completely meaningless conversation. If you don't have anything of substance to contribute, why do you bother? Some of us actually enjoy engaging in discussion and debate, and prefer to do so without making everything a personal assault. | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 1946 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
Same reason why you bother. Also I am not a republican. Just because I'm talked about how much it might cost doesn't mean I'm against. Please find one post where I said I was against it. Dan you really are one clueless person. | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 780 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.242.215.8 |
The cost of establishing a comutter train lines is minimal because the land is already purchased, the track is already laid and in this case the stations are already built. The only thing left is to do is buy the cars for it and do a few upgrades to the track, like Danindc said. The cost of TRU's proposed comutter lines between Detroit and Ann Arbor would only be a few million. Once again, TRU's plan: www.detroittransit.org/Ann%20A rbor%20Detroit.pdf However, the key part of that plan is to build a lightrail line along Michigan between Dearborn and downtown and then up Woodward to Highland Park. TRu's plan, you can read it on page 20, estimates that local government would only have to chip in about $80 million to make this happen. Let's be generous and call it a round $100 million for cost overruns. The feds will pay for the rest. To basically pay $80 to $100 million for the start of a real mass transit system linking the airport with two of the big three, four major universities, five major stadiums and not mention millions of people is a bargain. However, TRU's plan only has estimates. The study, set for release June 28, will have much more accurate cost and ridership projections. So wait a few days and there will be much more firm numbers to debate. Dougw: I agree, that if a viable mass transit system is established in Wayne and Washtenaw counties, Oakland and Macomb counties are going to want to jump on that bandwagon asap. If TRU's plan is adopted, I can definitely see L Brooks doing and about face and ask that the streetcar line be extended up Woodward to at least Royal Oak, if not to Birmingham or Pontiac. | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 1948 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
What is the point of building a light rail system when one already exists? Amtrak has the Wolverine line http://www.mitrain.com/wolv.ht ml. It would be cheaper to pay Amtrak to just run a line between Detroit and AA every hour. A rapid transit line will cost more then 100 mil. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1559 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Yes, a rapid transit line (light rail or heavy rail) would cost more than $100 million. I think that given the distance between Ann Arbor and Detroit, and the speeds desired, the only reasonable alternative is commuter rail, which I've noted above is far less expensive (both in capital and operational costs). How do you figure that Amtrak is light rail? By definition, Amtrak is intercity passenger rail. A commuter rail service actually wouldn't be much different than Amtrak, other than the seating, and many commuter rail agencies, including Maryland's MARC and the Virginia Railway Express, do contract with Amtrak to operate the service. So, given that your proposal is essentially the same as the commuter rail option, how do you figure that it's cheaper? The TRU plan features a light rail line in Detroit to enable access to the stations in Detroit and Dearborn. Let's face it--Detroit's Amshack really isn't at the best location for access to the CBD, and you can't reasonably expect that people will take the train just to transfer to a slow, unreliable DDOT bus. | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 1949 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
If the ride isn't faster then a car it will never receive the ridership needed to make it work. That is the SEM mentality. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1788 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 68.248.1.7 |
Merch, I agree, AMTRAK should make it's current link hourly. If our local authorities could provide them the $$ neccesary, then by all means use the current infrastructure. It works very well for me, as I am located in AA part of the year, but you basically need to work your schedule around AMTRAK's to make it work with only three passes between the cities in each direction per day. They would have to work on right-of-way issues, because A2 to Detroit is often halted, even on high-speed parts of the track, to let freight trains clear. Plus more trains would be neccesary, even if they keep the current Pontiac to Chicago route three times a day, and then add one that only runs between New Center and AA hourly. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1560 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
The big kicker, of course, is equipment. Amtrak is short on equipment as it is. Never mind that your typical Amtrak consist runs with a cafe car and passenger cars with fewer (and cushier) seats than your typical commuter rail car. These elements make the farebox recovery a lot lower than a standard commuter rail operation. In addition, I'm not sure you would want local commuter transit to be subject to the political whim of the day on the Hill, as Amtrak is. A local transit authority could hire Amtrak to operate the service, but relying on Amtrak to provide a local service is begging for trouble. I'm not even sure they would be allowed to do that (Interstate Commerce clause). Certainly, any transit service would best be served by local control, correct? Michigan certainly gold-plates its highways. Not to advocate wasting money, but why cheap out when it comes to transit? | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 152 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 63.85.13.248 |
We do not have problems with the cappital cost of building a system. The feds would support something if we have a regional vision and a plan to fund our sides of the capital costs. We do have to be cognizant that we cannot build a system we cannot afford. Capital costs are cheap compared to operating costs so all this talk of modes is pretty silly. We also lack any vison, and this discussion demonstrates that we argue about the details instead of looking for ways to connect us. If we did not have an operations funding issue, AMTRAK could be run hourly with a feeder bus designed to meet it at Merriman Road. That however is not thinking big picture and it can't be expanded so that this can be extended up woodward, gratiot, grand river, and yes even places like 8 Mile, Telegraph, and Big Beaver/Metroparkway. I for one would love to be able to hop abord a system that would take me from my home on the West side to Metro Beach in an hour. I'm sure that workers would use it to get to jobs along woodward and big beaver from homes in Detroit and Macomb County. (Message edited by Detroitplanner on June 22, 2006) | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1563 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Thinking "big picture", this line would be part of something that (I hope) eventually would be a much larger multi-modal network. Detroit needs to get out of the mindset that there is a single mode, be it bus, light rail or BRT, that will solve all of its transit needs. Any city with decent transit uses a variety of modes, each of which serve a different function. | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2679 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 143.231.249.141 |
Dan, I live in the northwest quadrant of DC between Friendship Heights and DuPoint Circle. I do not have a car. I use the Flexcar service in the area. I know exactly what I'm talking about. I avoid the shady (since Livernoisyard is ignorant on American urban slang, it means "umcomfortable" or "dangerous" neighborhoods) areas that I have no business being in. I never feel umcomfortable on the Metro subway system. However, I avoid the buses at all cost because I've seen too many crazy people. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 915 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
"I avoid the shady (since Livernoisyard is ignorant on American urban slang, it means "umcomfortable" or "dangerous" neighborhoods) areas that I have no business being in. I never feel umcomfortable on the Metro subway system." I know the several meanings of shady, Margaret. But, I'm uncomfortably ignorant about your American urban slang regarding umcomfortable. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 621 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 209.69.221.253 |
In the past, Ltorivia has shown that she's scared of immigrants and any transit system that would take away precious ground space from motorcars. This fear of the poor and their "shady" environs in right in keeping with the paranoid nuttines I've seen from her so far. Don't go away angry, Ltorivia. Just go away. | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2681 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 143.231.249.141 |
Livernois, since you want to be Mr. 100% Anal Smart-Ass all the time, why don't you post more substantive comments and stop acting like the judge of the National Spelling Bee? For real, most people on this forum know exactly what I am saying. You just have to nit-pick and be a real jerk. That is why most people despise you. Dan, I support mass transit for Detroit. However, I know at the same time, middle-class people will not ride the train if they do not feel safe. I know plenty of neighborhoods (including Highland Park) in Detroit that are not exactly for those not from the area. Most metro Detroiters will ride a subway system in the city. I'm just not so sure about light rail. | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2682 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 143.231.249.141 |
Detroitnerd: In the past? What the hell? You are obviously an idiot. Find a post on this thread (heck, on this entire forum) where I am pro-highways. It's human instinct to want to feel safe. There are certain neighborhoods in DC that I know, as a temporary resident, I avoid since I am not from the area. The same goes for some neighborhoods in Detroit. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 622 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 209.69.221.253 |
Classic Ltorivia Syndrome. The reading comprehension is the first thing to go. (Unfortunately, typing ability is one of the last things to go.) | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 433 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 198.103.184.76 |
So, when is that transit study coming out.... | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 77 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 69.136.155.244 |
I think it will be as soon as they finish making the daily ridership projections. It took them a while to locate and hire the consultant that came up with the projection of 67,700 daily riders back when the DPM study was made some twenty years ago ;-) | ||
Erichp77 Member Username: Erichp77 Post Number: 177 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 71.148.30.112 |
LOL, rest assured, I really don't think folks who don't know where they're going will hop off at the first Highland Park stop or any other areas they are not familiar with. Good to know that someone here can speak for all the middle-class citizens of Metro Detroit. When we do get light rail, a train should definitly be named after Ltorivia. I was thinking of the, "Ltorvivia-485 Detroit-Woodward-Ho-Hum-Doom-N -Gloom-Tornados -Earthquakes-Hurricanes-Waco Texas-Line". | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2683 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 143.231.249.141 |
Eric, unfortunately your statement was not funny. And yes I live in Detroit. | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 1193 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 136.2.1.103 |
MerchantG: Just so there's no confusion, TRU's proposal for commuter rail between Detroit & Ann Arbor basically *is* the Amtrack/Wolverine rail line. That's why it's a relatively inexpensive option, the track & stations can be re-used. It's also pretty fast, commute times would be roughly the same as by car (maybe faster during rush hour). I'm not sure offhand if the proposal includes contracting through Amtrack to provide the service, though. Mackinaw brings up an interesting point... would there be congestion/right of way issues with the freight trains if it became an hourly service? E_hemingway: Yeah, I can see L Brooks & Oakland/Macomb counties wanting to jump on the bandwagon if there is some proven success. TRU's idea to have the light rail line go up to 6 mile is pretty savvy, because then it's a pretty small step to extend it into Oakland County. I'm actually pretty optimistic that the funding source/tax for the Ann Arbor-Detroit line will have a good chance of passing, for these reasons: * Only Wayne & Washtenaw counties would be taxed, and these 2 counties are traditionally more liberal than Oakland & Macomb counties (let alone Livingston county), and would be more likely to approve a tax. * The fact that it's only a system for part of the region is an advantage in this case... I think there will be a sense among a lot of Wayne/Washtenaw voters that this system is something special for "us" and could give us a bit of a competitive advantage with being connected to the airport, etc. With a massive 5-county proposal you're more likely to get more voter cynicism IMO. Of course, long term we want a real system for the whole region, but I think it's a great thing that we're starting with this smaller piece first, so it actually has a chance of success. (Message edited by Dougw on June 22, 2006) | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1568 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Maybe you feel that Metro weeds out the criminal and poor element because you're currently living in an incredibly wealthy neighborhood. Is that a possibility? I hope I don't run into you. Nothing personal--I just wouldn't want to give you any of the criminal germs I picked up on the 90 bus yesterday. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 917 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
AFAIK, Amtrak purchased the former westerly (nothernmost) track #1 ROW of the Michigan Line and upgraded it to welded track. The CP-LOU switch might pose an occasional problem when its trains cross over to the southern parallel Michigan Line track #2 north of Roughmere. Ferrous Metals (west of Lonyo) on Southern in Dearborn only has, at most, one small consist per day in the nearly abandoned Junction Yard. That train may sit for up to an hour for the Amtrak to pass before proceeding if an Amtrak passing is imminent. The Milwaukee Junction's diamonds are now history. | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2687 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 143.231.249.141 |
Dan, an incredibly wealthy and SAFE neighborhood. Just like I live in one of the SAFEST neighborhoods in Detroit. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3906 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 24.11.154.56 |
L, you are one arrogant and snotty person from the sound of you posts. And, you're probably one of those people that grew up poor, too, which would make it even more ironic. Get over yourself. lol | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2692 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 69.17.38.194 |
Grew up poor? One of my parents has a PhD and makes 2-3 times the average income in Detroit. Hardly, Lmich. Now my parents are much older and they grew up poor (rural country poor). Yet, they walk and talk in the same social circles as the Vice President of Comerica Bank or Continental Airlines. They would not want to be around hoodrats (a.k.a. ghetto folks) and criminals. (Message edited by ltorivia485 on June 22, 2006) | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 289 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 24.192.25.47 |
Should we be impressed about your upbringing? You must be very important. | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 3467 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 75.9.246.83 |
Washinton's Metro is so awesome. It was like some alien place when I walked into it. Well, being from Detroit, it was a whole nother world. Thanks again DaninDC for the DC tips! | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2694 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 69.17.38.194 |
No, no one should be impressed. I am just speaking in terms of class dynamics and people's comfort zones (human instincts). I find the Metro safer and more appealing than the CTA and the MTA. | ||
Bvos Member Username: Bvos Post Number: 1597 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 70.228.2.1 |
Sorry to break up the bitching, but I thought I'd post something actually about the topic being discussed. Here's a very, very interesting idea from A2's mayor with commuter rail. Louis P. Ferris Jr. is mentioned in the article, and while he's probably just blowing hot air, it's important to note that he's a very, very, very loaded guy who's very interested in mass transit and interested in figuring out a way to make money off it since the government can't get its act together. http://www.mlive.com/news/aane ws/index.ssf?/base/news-18/115 046919871620.xml&coll=2&thispa ge=1 | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 923 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
JAP Jewish-American princess From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jewish American Princess or JAP (not to be confused with the ethnic slur directed towards people of Japanese nationality) can be taken and meant as an ethno-religious and/or sexist slur used to refer to Jewish women with privileged backgrounds. As with all stereotypes, this one is often the basis for a variety of jokes and contrived but humorous scenarios. Its factual basis seems to stem from the rapid rise to affluence of Jewish families that started out in tenements of New York City, moved to residential, urban neighborhoods in the city, and then to suburbs on Long Island, northern New Jersey, and elsewhere in the United States. The notion is that many who are raised in the affluent environments have lost any sense of continuity with their hardworking parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents. The slur is usually considered offensive both for its sexist and ethnic implications. Not always used in a negative sense, it is just for teenagers to describe what clique they belong to, just like a scene kid or goth. Characterization in popular culture * Perhaps the most famous example of a Jewish-American Princess is the character of Brenda in the novella Goodbye, Columbus by Philip Roth, and the 1969 film of the same name, starring Ali MacGraw. * In 1979, Frank Zappa wrote and performed a song called Jewish Princess in his album Sheik Yerbouti, making fun of the stereotype. Subsequently, 2 Live Jews performed a song called "J.A.P. Rap" in their 1990 album As Kosher As They Wanna Be. * In 1980, Goldie Hawn portrayed Judy Benjamin in Private Benjamin. In the film, a spoiled rich girl joins the army after her marriage fails, finds herself in a more difficult situation than she ever expected, and ultimately rises to the occasion. * The 1987 movie Spaceballs makes several references to this stereotype via Princess Vespa, their 'Druish Princess'. * The movie Clueless (Paramount, 1995), a derivation of Jane Austen's Emma characterizes a self-absorbed, affluent young woman vaguely identified to be of Jewish heritage. * In the sitcom Friends, the character Rachel Green began as the stereotype brought to life. As the series progressed however, she became less of a J.A.P. Much of the early series was about her changing in order to live in the real world. * In both Clueless and Friends the Jewish-American Princess found true love with the "geeky older brother" - her stepbrother and her best friend's brother respectively. * In the 2002 movie Igby Goes Down, Igby Slocumb, who is played by Kieran Culkin, describes facetiously his friend Sookie Sapperstein, who is played by Claire Danes, as a "JAP" in reference to her materialistic upbringing in New York. See also: * Other ethnic slurs beginning with J * Jewish mother stereotype * Black American Princess External links: * Dictionary definition (Message edited by LivernoisYard on June 23, 2006) | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2695 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 69.17.38.194 |
Great article, Bvos. I think most of us on this forum are in support of commuter rail. We need an interurban system that will connect the metropolitan region. I was speaking to one of my former high school friends who now attends Michigan Law School, and she said that Ann Arbor students want to visit Detroit or Oakland County but do not have the means to do so. Livernois, cut the crap. I'm not Jewish or white. | ||
Thecarl Member Username: Thecarl Post Number: 804 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 69.14.30.175 |
RIDICULOUS! everyone knows someone who owns a car. get a few kids together, scrape up $11 for gas, and hit i-94. there is no r.o.i. for a detroit-to-ann-arbor transit system; private commerce wouldn't back it, and government can't afford it. it's a dead issue. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 924 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Oh, oh--Thecarl! Somebody's going to be accused of being LBP in a post or three. | ||
Thecarl Member Username: Thecarl Post Number: 812 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 69.14.30.175 |
eh, livernoisyard, it bugs me. money spent on a project that everyone knows won't go, for all the reasons stated. there's better economic incentive to dig a tunnel between chicago and grand rapids, two viable and vibrant municipalities, and that won't happen. so why run a commuter line between detroit and a2? there's just no return on investment. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 926 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Commuter rail makes sense in Chicago, which is a big, nearly 24x7 city, but no way for a dedicated Detroit to AA run. Students attending the three colleges or universities in Metro AA can take the Amtrak three times daily to Detroit as it is. I wonder what the ridership stats are for that segment. All what is really needed is a bus linkage between the Smart and the AA-Ypsilanti bus system for that relatively short stretch. Perhaps, each system could extend their service a bit and connect somewhere. | ||
Deputy_mayor_2026 Member Username: Deputy_mayor_2026 Post Number: 85 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
I don't think it is that much of an accomplishment to make two to three times the average income in Detroit. How much of the city is unemployed or at least under the poverty line? | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3907 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 24.11.154.56 |
Livernois, that is an hilarious wiki article. lol! | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 935 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Anything to please... | ||
Bvos Member Username: Bvos Post Number: 1598 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.238.170.50 |
Well, Thecarl said it so that settles it. It can't be done. End of story. Shut down this discussion and all future discussions about mass transit in Metro Detroit. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 113 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 64.131.176.232 |
Eleven dollars in gas will get you stranded on the highway in the middle of the night... | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 434 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 198.103.184.76 |
Before it got wildly sidetracked, this thread started by stating the report was to be released June 22nd. That was yesterday. Any news? | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1778 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.68 |
I don't believe that was true. http://www.annarbordetroitrapi dtransitstudy.com | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1779 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.68 |
Livernoisyard's aurgement is circular. The Detroit region is a crappy city because we don't have transit and we don't deserve transit because we are a crappy city. It is not logical and it doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Especially when sleep cities all over the country are investing in transit systems that are improving their economies. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1573 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
I got to thinking about the ROI argument, especially since commuter rail doesn't tend to promote the dense level of transit-oriented development that "urban" transit systems (light rail, heavy rail) do. Then I thought about ROI on freeways. Consider the City of Detroit pre-freeway vis-a-vis the City of Detroit today. Accounting for the disinvestment in the City due to decentralization made possible by the freeways, one could argue that Detroit has seen a massively negative ROI with the Interstate highway system. I'm trying to find sources that have calculated the ROI of commuter rail. I think the other false assumption being propagated is that students will be the only potential customers of a commuter rail system. If you don't think regular commuters and businesspeople will take a train, you're really missing the point (and really--how many regular commuters are going to transfer from AATA to a gap-filler bus to the SMART bus?). When I have meetings in Baltimore, I take the commuter rail--partly because it's cheap, partly because it's convenient. The trains run at least once an hour through the day. If there were only three trains a day, it would be a heck of a lot less convenient, and not a realistic option. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 937 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
I know how proponents of public spending work. First, they lull the taxpayers into a project with unrealistic low-ball estimates. If the project starts, inevitable (expected, actually) cost overruns occur. Obviously, the budgeted funds run out. Next, the proponents will say that the project MUST continue in order to justify the funds already spent for the partially-built, low-balled project. Now, there's a fork in the road. Either the taxpayers get rereamed after they pay the costs and future overruns for this boondoggle. Or, the project gets dumped and becomes yet another white elephant. And on it goes... | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1574 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Lyard, I'd like to know which recent transit projects have been low-balled. Something like a commuter rail line is very run-of-the-mill and has very predictable costs. Am I a proponent of public spending? Hell yes, especially since government is SUPPOSED to provide infrastructure. If Michigan doesn't spend the federal money on transit, another state will, and believe me--we could use a few more subway lines here. | ||
Bvos Member Username: Bvos Post Number: 1606 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.238.170.50 |
The Minneapolis Hiawatha line came in exactly on schedule and on budget. Ridership estimates were blown away the first week it was open. Subsequently other proposed rail projects in the state have been fast tracked by nearly all politicians, including Republicans. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1780 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.68 |
Or, The project get the support it needs to have quality work put into it, and it is on time and on budget and makes the city into a more efficient and useful place. http://www.highbeam.com/doc.as px?DOCID=1G1:83471214&ctrlInfo =Round20%3AMode20d%3ADocG%3ARe sult&ao= http://www.lightrailnow.org/my ths/m_lrt009.htm http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/ transportation/191520_gtransit 20.html http://www.lightrailnow.org/ne ws/n_sac003.htm
http://www.rtd-denver.com/fast racks/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R ail_transit_in_Denver,_Colorad o Most budget over-runs happen when either the citizens or the politicians decide they want something that was not in the original budget. Apparently, in Livernoisyard's perfect world there is no public realm. Everything is a commodity, if you want it you have to buy it. Clean air, parkland, access to a body of water? Better get out the checkbook. I could respect that idological point of view (even if I don't agree), except that it usually (and apparently in this case) comes with a support for public realm that the individual wants for themselves. (We can't pay for transit because I won't use it, but we can still pay for highways because I will use them--never mind that you won't.) (Message edited by jsmyers on June 23, 2006) | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 789 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.242.215.8 |
Upinottawa: Read the beginning of the thread. | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 1196 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 136.2.1.101 |
In short, the study results are now supposed to come out on June 28. The final decision on which of the 5 options will be pursued is coming out in October. | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 790 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.242.215.8 |
^^^ From what I have heard, that is the timeline. | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 435 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 198.103.184.76 |
Thanks. | ||
Tomoh Member Username: Tomoh Post Number: 224 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.136.10.153 |
That might be true for most (and still not everyone) who lives in an apartment near campus with on-site parking. But for the first few years of college at UM they are living in dorms, not knowing many people, and living with others who don't know many people and are living in dorms (none with cars). I think it's ridiculous to assume that the tens of thousands of people in Ann Arbor and Ypsilanti just happen to have ready access to a car. If you don't think that people wouldn't use rail to get from A2/Ypsi to the airport, you should just take a look at the number of private shuttle companies that exist. You can't look at the current Wolverine line and say "see, commuter rail doesn't work" -- it runs at odd hours three times a day and costs $10 each way. OTOH, do you really think noone who is making that 40-90 minute (depending on traffic) trip would not rather be sitting on a 45 minute train? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 944 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Pity that all overly pampered college kids everywhere can't get more amenities in life (a vital necessity, for some) like cheap train transportation for slumming around while they're working so hard. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 299 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 24.192.25.47 |
MMMM yay for stereotypes! | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 76 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
TRUFAN Yes, there are many false propagandas and scare tactics that sabotaged my bus ride to work. Im the only white person on my bus and I fought for my bus seat by getting SMART of come to Livonia on my own by defeating the 2002 tax increase to attack the freeways. I had no bus service but I knew that I had to fight to ride an all black bus to stop the freeways and the further destruction of Detroit. It was the scare tactics and false propagandas of the Transportation Riders United TRU and MOSES that largely caused the Livonia opt out. I won by paying for the blacks thus I will not give up my bus seat. It just happens that I can look out my bus window and see the building where the Rosa Parks bus is at. The August 8, 2006 SMART renewal will only mean more discrimination. The only purpose of this tax is to abolish all state transit money to pay for the cost of operations. DARTA has put this fact in writing by means of illegal force, scare tactics and supported by false propagandas.. When I drove by Wonderland which soon will have over a thousand new jobs, I know the truth and the facts. The per-passenger cost for these workers is $10.00 per ride. Similar public systems such as Chicago and areas that have no rail cost $1.30 to 3.00 for the same ride. Those who wear rose colored glasses dont see this but instead want higher taxes for the promises of more federal transit grants. Unfortunately for all of us, this is a lie. Everyone agrees that good public transportation is essential thus will contribute in some way or anther. We can support just leaving things alone by capping all transportation related tax increases or we can support more lies. TRUFAN, I want to debate SMART on how to get Livonia back. But, I cant because you will not debate me in public. I dont know your name but thanks for caring and your efforts which Im sure will help as you educate the importance of mass transit. TRUFAN, Im sure we both agree that mass transit provides a quality of life that cars will never provide. So, please lets meet on the bus again and say hello and both make sure someone other then ourselves will always have a ride. If anyone wants my website to support my cause of fixing wheelchairs then ask. I promise not to push may cause on this forum and I do not spam. I have a name and if I get no supporters then Im gone. So, lets talk about Baseball or anything that will not make you angry. | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 1197 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.252.124.43 |
Hey Trainman, this forum is public, so you can always have your debate here. Somehow I think there are more people reading this thread than would attend the in-person debate you're proposing. | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 78 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
I know this and it is my hope that we can improve mass transit and not to debate SMART or TRUFAN. Just because I won and lost public bus service does not meant that I want others to lose bus service. On August 8, 2006 when we vote on the SMART tax. Let's make sure that we all do more like riding the bus downtown instead of jumping in the car every time we go somewhere. If we all just ride the bus once we can make up for the greed of the Livonia city council members. They gave themselves pay raises with money that used to pay for the SMART buses. | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 800 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.242.215.8 |
E-mail from TRU regarding a delay in the release of the Detroit-Ann Arbor transit study results. As many of you have heard, the much anticipated release of the last report on the Ann Arbor to Detroit rapid transit line has again been postponed. According to SEMCOG, the consultants doing the analysis were not quite finished with all the analysis they needed for a truly complete study. The latest schedule anticipates the report finished and released by the end of July. It will include a detailed analysis of the five alternatives, including estimated ridership, travel time and cost of each. SEMCOG will schedule three public hearings in August with the hope of deciding which option is the best, the "locally preferred alternative," by October. Public input will be critical in ensuring that the best option, not just the cheapest option, is selected. TRU will notify you as soon as the report is out and the hearing dates are announced. We will have a response to the report available as well. In the meanwhile, we will continue the important work of building support and figuring out funding for this line. To review the five alternatives under consideration or for more information, visit http://www.annarbordetroitrapi dtransitstudy.com/. Megan Owens Executive Director, Transportation Riders United 500 Griswold, Suite 1650 MOwens@DetroitTransit.org Detroit, Michigan 48226 www.DetroitTransit.org Phone: 313-963-8872 Fax: 313-963-8876 Our mission is to improve transportation access and mobility in Greater Detroit. | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 86 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
Please support the efforts to increase bus rider-ship and improve mass transit for everyone in southeast Michigan http://savethefueltax.tripod.c om/theplan.html | ||
Apbest Member Username: Apbest Post Number: 131 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 68.42.220.61 |
have you ever seen that MadTV skit with Bob Newhart? Maybe you need to seek clinical help to JUST STOP IT | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 88 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
Learn the facts about the August 8, 2006 SMART property tax renewal http://savethefueltax.org | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 816 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.242.215.8 |
 | ||
Rbdetsport Member Username: Rbdetsport Post Number: 135 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 68.61.11.146 |
I hear you E_Hemingway. | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 97 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
quote: We already have just about the highest transit taxes in the country and it's a fact that Chicago pays less. end of quote YES, Chicago pays less. Documents from the FTA database shows Chicago pays $2.30 per passenger and we pay $10. per passenger. On August 8, 2006 when the SMART millage expires, this fact will mean nothing to the Transportation Riders United. They refuse to fight the Michigan Department of Transportation. It is clear that our leaders in Lansing are pushing the entire operating costs of SMART and DDOT on the backs of local taxpayers. This is clearly discrimination and wrong as a thousand people will lose bus service in Livonia. It is the responsibility of the state to pay for SMART and not city hall. | ||
Apbest Member Username: Apbest Post Number: 133 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 68.40.65.66 |
how do u only have 97 posts? | ||
Motorcitymayor2026 Member Username: Motorcitymayor2026 Post Number: 998 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 24.231.189.137 |
lol.. 97 posts on probably 97 different threads on 97 different topics too. | ||
Brian Member Username: Brian Post Number: 3320 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.252.6.152 |
Regardless to the number of posts a person has, the issue of how to pay for any different transit idea is always ignored or dodged by those pushing to change transit in SE Michigan. The plan in all of these studies is to use the DDOT funds. Interesting that this is not discussed and when someone refers to the SMART tax the issue is ignored. Will TRU advocate higher taxes to pay for any new system? I don't need an answer but for those who are wanting new forms of transit or DARTA, higher taxes will become a reality. Under DARTA, the suburbs will pay more taxes. ALL burbs serviced by DARTA will pay a tax equal to what is currently paid for DDOT. That is not a small sum. Create a rail line and the Teamsters and other larger unions will fill those jobs. The cost will not be any cheaper than any other city in the US. Just like the Detroit water dept takeover plans dried up when it became clear how much suburban cities would pay for that idea, this too will not become a reality while the suburban politicians sell their residents and their re-election plans on cheap living and low taxes. Will they pay for in taxes for Transit or Schools? While these same households run out and get a new car with Employee pricing. | ||
Thecarl Member Username: Thecarl Post Number: 857 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 69.14.30.175 |
wow. how governmental. besides, who's going to pay for any such system? has anybody made note of the fact that michigan's economy is third-worst in the nation? can we levy funds from homeowners who are losing their properties to unpaid taxes, and are sunk in consumer debt, while facing job loss and job insecurity? are there leftover funds somewhere in the state treasury? maybe the feds have some money for us (forgetting about the war, homeland security, social security, medicare, fema, etc.? ) or maybe private enterprise sees great value in this; we can tap on any big michigan firm whose stock is soaring and has generous venture capital. i'll say again, fruitless studies - or research that proves the obvious - are wonderful ways for politicians to steal from the taxpayers. countless cronies are hired in as "consultants" and bring home fat paychecks while the public gets nothing. (and by the way, if anyone wants to talk about the accuracy of estimates for public transportation spending, i have two words: people mover.) | ||
Apbest Member Username: Apbest Post Number: 134 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 68.40.65.66 |
well we have 100mil to start from the feds. But how do we expect our economy to grow without transit? u got to spend money to make money brother...Campus Martius was a 20mil investment that generated some 500+million(and growing) investments. A transit line complimented by metro detroit light rail will do what it was done for many other new urbanism movements around the country: centralize and concentrate large amounts of development | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1037 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Transit isn't going to induce firms to relocate here, and it won't even stem the inevitable, major job losses expected from GM, Ford, and their Tiers throughout the decade. It'll be another costly white elephant toy like the People Mover. The sensible approach would be to introduce expensive transit only if there were an actual, not a pretended need for it. One sensible project would be to simply extend the Smart Michigan route westward toward Ypsilanti and for the AA/Y system to extend itself eastward in order to connect the two. This way, the taxpayers wouldn't be hit so hard afterwards when the ridership stats indicate that any Cadillac transit system won't be needed. And study expenditures won't have to be expended on the worthless profs and other cronies, feeding off the public trough. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 1600 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.100.158.10 |
Um, that's why they conduct these studies. You know, so it's not like, pretend and stuff. | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 101 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
Both SEMCOG and MDOT claim that the tax on fuel is no longer a viable means of paying for the operating costs of mass transit. There are two solutions to solve this. 1. Raise user fees and money from those who benefit 2. Raise non-user taxes such as a county sales tax Its a proven fact that only the first method works and will bring Michigan's economy back. There are many ways to raise user fees, but unfortunately SEMCOG regional planners are only interested in raising taxes on those who will least benefit or can least afford to pay higher taxes at this time. The Transportation Riders United TRU supports regressive transit taxes which encourage incompetence and promote urban sprawl as evidenced by their actions of allowing our state to siphon off state revenue sharing without any protest. This is why Livonia opted out of SMART and also why SEMCOG planners get away with the plan to spend over one billion dollars to expand Detroit freeways. We see the dreams and not reality. In another 40 years, our grandchildren will look back and see the damage of the TRU efforts. But when I-75 gets widened to four lanes in each direction all the way to Flint and beyond, it will be too late. The TRU refuses to debate anyone in public that wants mass transit to work competitively. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1040 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Um, studies are often a continuing form of "employment" for those in the public sector. Their conclusions are often trashed anyway. And on to the next studies... | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1647 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.132.87 |
Unfortunately transit from A2 to Ypsi almost ended.AATA somehow found money to extend it 2 more years.But Ypsi i.e. the city of Ypsilanti is not in great financial shape and has cut back on contributions to mass transit(AATA). How this will affect the various studies I of course don't know but I think it might indicate a bumpy road. | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 440 Registered: 09-2005 Posted From: 198.103.184.76 |
Yah, Trainman, TRU sucks. Only stupid cities have commuter rail or street cars. That and people who advocate subsidizing public transit have cooties. | ||
Bvos Member Username: Bvos Post Number: 1674 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 75.10.21.159 |
If light rail were to become a reality, believe me Ypsi would find the money to make it happen. That would be the biggest boost and economic development activity the city has had in a long time (i.e. decades). Anyone suspect that the delay in the AA to Det study was due to the Google announcement? 1,000 high tech workers, many of whom are likely to be current users/fans of mass transit, could significantly alter mass transit usage and traffic patterns in Metro Detroit, especially in AA. | ||
Thecarl Member Username: Thecarl Post Number: 867 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 69.14.30.175 |
nope. more likely, is the revelation that with drastically increased oil prices, highway work requiring asphalt - a petroleum derivative - has seen its raw material costs escalate 50%. rebudgeting. recronying. i wish corruption worked as well here as it does elsewhere. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1045 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Those 1000 Googlers entering the job scene during the next half decade will most likely reside in AA's sphere of influence, not Detroit's. AA already has a much better transit system than metro Detroit will ever have. [30% of AA's bus drivers don't play hooky as do DDOT's.] Besides, they will have to work eleven months a year to make less than overpaid government school teachers make in nine months. How many teachers plan to be taking mass/rapid transit anywhere? | ||
Thecarl Member Username: Thecarl Post Number: 868 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 69.14.30.175 |
sad to say, furthermore - during my tenure in a2, the "big city" was chicago. detroit was, well...detroit. | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 6345 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.136.149.133 |
1,000 high tech workers, many of whom are likely to be current users/fans of mass transit, could significantly alter mass transit usage and traffic patterns in Metro Detroit, especially in AA. Mass Transit in Ann Arbor? First thing I thought of:  | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 6346 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.136.149.133 |
1,000 high tech workers, many of whom are likely to be current users/fans of mass transit, could significantly alter mass transit usage and traffic patterns in Metro Detroit, especially in AA. Mass Transit in Ann Arbor?  | ||
Gumby Member Username: Gumby Post Number: 1328 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.60.143.186 |
Oh you would like that wouldn't you jeff | ||
Gumby Member Username: Gumby Post Number: 1329 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 68.60.143.186 |
Oh and fuck off Livernoisyard. If you ask me teachers should be paid a lot more for the work they do. Having to put up with assholes making blanket statements about them being overpaid. Why is it that the people who say that seem to have no problem with the shop workers getting paid 30 bucks an hour to screw around on the job and have makeshift beds in their work space? | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 6348 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.136.149.133 |
I've just received an advanced copy of the study, with their mass transit recommendation.  | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 134 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
First, teachers aren't governement workers. We are School Board employees. We receive no benefits from the government. Amazingly enough, we are not all overpaid. In fact, I have to loan my employer money so that we can educate kids! Even though we only work 9 months of a year, we have to attend classes, plan our lessons, etc. I work more hours than an average worker (at least 3 hours at home each night AFTER teaching all day). I often live paycheck to paycheck, not because of overspending, but because DTE, Ma Bell, the water dept, the house payment, etc., have raised their rates, while I've taken a pay cut. When I say "I" I mean my colleagues and myself. Granted, some teachers don't do their jobs. For those of us who care about the kids, spend our own money to benefit the kids (books, supplies, food, bus fare so they can get home), and have to take classes so we can keep doing what we are doing (ever priced a Master's degree??) please don't say we are overpaid. Considering that every other person who needs any type of reading and math skills to do their job needed a teacher to get there, I think teachers are grossly underpaid (that is not a complaint, just an observation). If you'd like to come and see what I do each day (from 5am to midnight) please let me know. You can come and be a guest teacher, plan the lesson, grade papers, and go to classes with me then do my homework/research papers/projects. You won't be clucking the same BS about teachers being overpaid then! This is a valid offer and if you care to take me up on it, let me know. | ||
Bvos Member Username: Bvos Post Number: 1680 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 134.215.223.211 |
Detroitteacher, you forgot the social worker hat! | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 135 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
OH, and the amount of stuff we schlep to work each day would not be appreciated on any type of mass transit. Most teachers make 2-3 trips to the car for supplies, papers, etc. each day. Not to mention running out to get "student A" lunch because his diabetes is running rampant and he's going to pass out any minute and the cafeteria food has zero nutritional value. I'm not walking to any type of mass transit station with a 50 pound bag and more schlepping behind me in a roll around. If you care to carry it for me each day to and from work, mass transit I'll welcome. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 136 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
Well, that is true Bvos. Add to my post above: Social worker! Visiting student's homes, listening to hours of problems, answering unlimited email from kids wanting help...the list goes on. All in all, I put in a 14 hour day...and that's on a good day. According to my calculations, that adds up to more than the 40 hour work week. | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 122 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
Quote on DY Regardless to the number of posts a person has, the issue of how to pay for any different transit idea is always ignored or dodged by those pushing to change transit in SE Michigan. End of quote It comforting to know that there are others on DY that use their brains. I actually went out and increased bus rider-ship on SMART because I know that THE answer is money. If we can't get more money from those who directly benefit or use mass transit by increasing rider-ship, then the best answer is to just leave it alone. If it works then don't fix it. Basically our transportation systems as a whole works. Why do so many people want to pay more to support rail and bus lines several miles away from their homes? Why do we not support many different tax mechanisms to pay for the operating costs of transit? My website is only to educate the voters and nothing more. And YES, the plans on it actually worked and YES, the buses will be full if the public supports my cause or similar competent efforts. http://savethefueltax.tripod.c om/theplan.html | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 1232 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.215.254.162 |
That issue is often ignored, however, it has been discussed in this thread, see my post 1193 above. Basically, this transit line would need to be paid for by a new tax, probably just for Wayne & Washtenaw counties, either an additional 1% sales tax, or a new property tax. Although part of the cost would already be paid out of the $100 million granted from the federal government. Getting the funding from existing MDOT funds or the existing fuel tax would be nice, but that doesn't seem feasible as far as I can tell. | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 123 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.204 |
MDOT and SEMCOG officials claim that the fuel tax is not a viable option to pay any operating costs for mass transit. Next August 8, 2006 your NO vote is needed to stop this abuse and the shut down of the SMART 285 bus line to widen 18 miles of freeway in Oakland County. The exact same money that used to pay for bus service in Livonia is now funding urban sprawl thanks to those who vote in regressive local tax increases that allow SEMCOG to support the trucking lobbyists at the expense of destroying the city of Detroit with more bulldozers. | ||
Cabasse Member Username: Cabasse Post Number: 8 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 69.133.90.28 |
detroitteacher, there are plenty of teachers in more than a couple of major cities in the us, not to mention the world, who do just fine 'schlepping' their things to work and back on transit. to each their own; just because you're used to driving doesn't mean other teachers won't/haven't adapt(ed) more readily. i spent a year riding atlanta's marta, and more than a couple of times i saw professors and tas from my classes also aboard. shit, you probably can't even begin to imagine those who use the train to get to and from the airport in some cities, carrying multiple suitcases and laptop bags with them. (Message edited by cabasse on July 15, 2006) | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2735 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 69.17.38.195 |
Detroit teacher, most K-12 teachers drive to work. The schools have stickers that you must put on the windshield of your car so that they won't tow it away. I don't know many teachers here in Washington DC (unless they're professors or teaching assistants) who take the train to work. | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 147 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.137 |
qoute Yah, Trainman, TRU sucks. Only stupid cities have commuter rail or street cars. That and people who advocate subsidizing public transit have cooties. end of quote I'm a member of the TRU but we all failed to stop the $533 Million dollar SEMCOG approved I-75 freeway. Supporting more taxes will only help this freeway become reality at this time. A supporter of the SMART taxs says, I love sprawl. | ||
Mani Member Username: Mani Post Number: 13 Registered: 07-2006 Posted From: 68.60.182.26 |
The P C Ann Arborites don't really care much about Detroit. They come off as open minded, open to people of all races. The truth is the lower class african americans live to the east (in lower housing section) completely segregated from the rest of the white, rich (with a few races sprinkled in) open minded! Ann Arbor is a very segregated town filled with hippy wanna'bees. It is a rich town...all similiarly minded. | ||
Mani Member Username: Mani Post Number: 14 Registered: 07-2006 Posted From: 68.60.182.26 |
P.S. don't get me wrong, the people of ann arbor are very nice. and that is exactly how they want to keep it! | ||
Ray Member Username: Ray Post Number: 740 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 69.209.182.243 |
Any mass transit is good, but I worry that the proposed AA Detroit line is not going to draw a lot of ridership and therefore will hamper efforts to build more logical lines. The comment above about teachers reminds me that in some cities, the students get to class on mass transit. Also, although off topic, the comment that teachers have to leave 2-3 times a day for supplies is troubling on multiple levels. This sounds like a waste of the teachers' valuable time and another example of how badly the public school systems are run. |
