  Tkelly1986 Member Username: Tkelly1986 Post Number: 84 Registered: 01-2004 Posted From: 68.251.56.124 |
I read on another message board that there may be an announcement about whether the Wings will stay at the Joe or move within the next few months, has anyone else heard this or can shed any light on this? The 6 months mentioned seem very soon for an issue that has not spawned any credible rumors as of yet. Thoughts? (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/ showthread.php?p=8962106#post8 962106) | ||
Eric Member Username: Eric Post Number: 506 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 35.11.210.161 |
No rumors? Crains has two stories about a new arena and these came the News. Given that the Ilitches want feasbilty studies done by end of the year 6 months isn't too soon http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20060621/S PORTS0103/606210369/1128 http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.d ll/article?AID=/20060622/SPORT S08/606220322 | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 1651 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 69.209.163.57 |
Two things about the Joe have come up recently. First off, I heard Rod Parker say on "Sports:Final Edition" that he heard his moles say that Ilitch is considering a new Joe Louis Arena on the Tiger Stadium site. Secondly, on WXYT Sports Radio on Wednesday of this week, Terry Foster and Mike Valenti discussed the merits of where to put the new Joe if renovating the old Joe was deemed not feasible. Terry Foster hinted that putting the new Joe on the Tiger Stadium site is not being ruled out despite the news about what Corktown residents want to do with the site. These two guys, being sports writers, do have an inside track to information about our sports teams so maybe there is some merit to what they are saying. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1789 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 68.248.1.7 |
I just went out to get a Crain's Detroit so I could read the two stories they have on this. I'll summarize it now, in the hopes that someone else with an online subscription will copy and paste. -The Illitches have 3 more years on their lease for the JLA. -Most real estate gurus in the city are betting on them building west of the Fox in the 'empty parking lot' district of downtown's northwest nechlace. The Illitches own at least half of this territory already, as they pursued a possible baseball stadium here already. Acquiring additional land here is difficult since prices are inflated in the hopes of a new Wings' venue being built. -Due to this, little to no residential or commercial development has taken place. Local merchants, like the Town Pump Tavern owner who they quote in one story, hopes a decision will be made soon, so that either an arena will come, or the land will be freed up with lower costs for potential developers. This same guy also believes they might build an arena complex at the Statler/UA sites. George Jackson of the DEGC said that he has other plans for those sites. -When asked for a quote, Chris Illitch vehemently denied the possibility of moving west of the Fox, saying that it didn't make sense. Insiders believe this is because he is truly targeting the rest of the area's parcels, and doesn't want to pay anymore by hyping the arena talk. ... -the story commented on the Quicken HQ possibility for the Statler Site, and the DEGC's desire in general to create density downtown, suggesting that they endorse a condensed stadia district with all the neccesary parking built in to that neighborhood as well. ... I wouldn't rule out a move to the former Motown Building site at the Fisher Fwy., but don't ask me why I believe that. On the whole, I think they will probably move to the area behind the Fox, with an arena in the new, smaller style i.e. the arenas in Cleveland or Columbus. It will probably have a Grand River Ave. or Cass Ave. address. I think it will be announced in a year or two, after they do some slight improvements to the Joe and ask for a couple more years of leasing it. A rehab of the JLA won't happen, I think its site will be incorporated into a new convention center, same with Cobo Arena. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 10206 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 64.118.137.226 |
Royce, you can't seriously believe that do you? | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1790 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 68.248.1.7 |
btw, Crain's said that the announcement re: Tiger Stadium last week DOES rule out the possibility of the Wings moving there. | ||
Rjlj Member Username: Rjlj Post Number: 77 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 63.171.81.130 |
All speculation with nothing new to add. Exactly, they may be sports writers and have the inside on sports but are they land developers and follow development projects? All assumptions and rumors at this point. Anyone with an ounce of business sense can see that a new arena is the likely scenario. We will have to wait and see how this unfolds but in the mean time keep feeding the rumor mill. | ||
Baltgar Member Username: Baltgar Post Number: 3 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 67.38.83.5 |
The location behind the Fox would be good for a new hockey arena. The only stipulations I would have are that it does not close off Cass Ave. (Clifford would be fine) and that it does not interfere with the recent developments of Centaur (plus lofts above it), Cliff Bells, and the possible restoration of the Detroit Life Bldg. The bars are already operational, but I would hate to see the urban feel this area has created ruined by the development of a suburban looking building. (Message edited by Baltgar on June 22, 2006) | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2334 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.3.71 |
I think we can pretty much rule out a Statler/Tuller site for a new arena. And it has nothing to do with the Quicken possibilities. The reason is.... Bagley Avenue CANNOT be closed off. Bagley is the main western freeway entrance/exit to the Theatre/Stadia district (just like Madison is the main eastern freeway entrance/exit). | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 1652 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 69.209.163.57 |
Sport, I didn't say that I believe it. Just relaying what I've heard. However, I'm not ruling out anything. This is Detroit you know. BTW, an arena behind the Fox could help connect Foxtown to the new MGM Grand Casino complex. My only wish, if they decide to build behind the Fox, is to keep Cass Avenue open. Cass is a vital north-south street into Midtown. Using Grand River to go north and south takes you through too many detours. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1791 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 68.248.1.7 |
Cass won't be cut off, neither would Bagley. I assume if somehow (it won't happen) the build on UA + Statler, then there would be a tunnel through the complex, like Farmer St. @ Compuware. Between Cass and Grand River is a decent area for the facility, and that's where I'll put my money. And Baltgar said it right. Whatever we get will have to be pretty high density, as these are not large sites. A new arena would also be more complementary to the streetscape than a 1970s arena. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2335 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.3.71 |
Mackinaw, yeah a tunnel would be possible for Bagley, although it would be a hindrance for pedestrian traffic (tunnels always are!). I wonder if in the post 9/11 era tunneling under an arena would be considered a Homeland Security nightmare? But then we already have (older) tunneling under Cobo. But anyway, the city has something taller planned for the Statler and Tuller sites. I too think that either east or west of Cass would be an ideal (west Foxtown) site. Last year we had a thread that showed a satelite pic of west Foxtown and demonstrated that there was enough room either east or west of Cass for a new arena. | ||
Merchantgander Member Username: Merchantgander Post Number: 1952 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 150.198.150.244 |
A little birdie told me that it would be a floating stadium built right on the river that way the city wouldn't have to acquire any land. | ||
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa Post Number: 933 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 208.39.170.90 |
Obviously due to the increasing shortage of available land in Detroit. | ||
Tkelly1986 Member Username: Tkelly1986 Post Number: 85 Registered: 01-2004 Posted From: 68.251.56.124 |
could somebody post that sattalite pic again? I tried to find it on the forum and could not. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 286 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 209.220.229.254 |
Please forgive the terrible MS Paint graphic, I'm at work and can't do better. But you can see the footprint of JLA here, and if it were rotated and some streets were shifted by a couple dozen feet, it'd be very feasible.  | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 10208 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 64.118.137.226 |
In all honesty, being close to MGM would likely be reason enough NOT to have the new arena in Foxtown. Same reason that it likely wouldn't go on the land Greektown Casino bought and decided not to build upon. Ideally, I'm sure they'd like something smack dab next to their casino. In all honesty, that could be a realistic spot for them. Just north of Motorcity Casino lies a solid stretch of nothing but vacated old factories/buildings, pretty much all the way until you hit the MLK/Grand River/Trumbull intersection. If not there, then possibly putting it on the river somewhere in the middle of the rivertown development, but then you run into parking issues unless many parking garges/lot rise up, which I doubt is in the game plan for the development. It's not that there aren't vacant lots around town, it's just that the required area for an arena is quite large. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1792 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 68.248.1.7 |
Focus, it would fit even easier between Cass and Grand River. I also think a new arena will be smaller and taller. | ||
Tarkus Member Username: Tarkus Post Number: 58 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 69.222.98.86 |
Lets not forget who owns Motor City Casino. Ms. Marian Illitch | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 287 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 209.220.229.254 |
My only problem with that is that it would likely leave the parking lots between Woodward and Cass as parking lots, thus leaving a hole between developments. I would prefer parking lots be on the outskirts if they have to be somewhere. | ||
Genesyxx Member Username: Genesyxx Post Number: 528 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 71.159.22.4 |
Yep.. anyday now. <loud> | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1793 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 68.248.1.7 |
That's a good point, Focus. I'm fearing that the Ilitches might use the new arena to justify tearing down the UA for parking... | ||
Baltgar Member Username: Baltgar Post Number: 4 Registered: 06-2006 Posted From: 67.38.83.5 |
Isn't there a church in the way that prevents the arena from being built between Cass and Grand River? Church I AM or something? I vaguely recall this being an issue with the first CoPa design to go behind the Fox. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1794 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 68.248.1.7 |
There is a historic church near the Fisher Fwy. at the corner of 2nd/Columbia/Grand River. This is at the edge of the territory we are talking about, and surely wouldn't be in the way. Then, at Grand River/Cass/Adams is the historic GAR building, but it sits on its own block and certainly isn't in the way. In the pentagonal block bounded by 2nd/Columbia/Cass/Elizabeth/Grand River that I like for an arena, there are three buildings and 5 parking lots, and I would only miss one of those three buildings. The area between Cass and Clifford from Columbia down to Adams is completely empty. With the exception of one small, old building that could probably be moved, the area inside of Park, Clifford, Columbia, and Elizabeth is also completely empty. This is the block next to the historic Women's City Club building, and SW of the Fox by a block. At the SE corner of Elizabeth and Clifford is a 6-story warehouse (pretty sure it's empty, someone let me know if otherwise) that I wouldn't mind seeing go as part of a new arena. I could see the block I described in the previous paragraph combined with this warehouse site and a blocking/tunnel for Elizabeth St. as an arena site. Of course, I'm not sure what Ilitch does and does not own for certain here, and I basically am just relaying the lay of the land. www.local.live.com is an excellent substitute for going down and looking at this area yourself. (Message edited by mackinaw on June 22, 2006) | ||
Rjlj Member Username: Rjlj Post Number: 78 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 63.171.81.130 |
I believe Cass would be blocked if the a new arena was to be built behind the Fox. A new Arena would not fit within the contraints of this major street and the properties that people would not give up cheaply. Also, they would not be able to utilize the land that Olympia already owns. Olympia owns land on both sides of Cass. The whole point of a new arena is to get more people in there. They nearly sell out every game so of course they want more people. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1777 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.68 |
Check out some previous discussions about this: https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/mes sages/62684/64187.html and: http://www.urbanplanet.org/for ums/index.php?showtopic=20328 | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1795 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 68.248.1.7 |
Rjlj, the Crain's article tossed out the probable price tag for an 18,000-seater. I think that's the direction they'll go in. The seats will be even more expensive and they'll be a lot more luxury boxes to make up for less seats. I think it will look like the Q in Cleveland, personally...indoor stadium architecture, with seats closer to the action, and more enclosure to create louder acoustics. We will not have a re-creation of the 22,000+ seat Palace. As FocusontheD's graphic shows, we can fit an arena, especially one smaller than the Joe, without blocking Cass. I'll be damned if that major road (which runs several bus routes, right?) would be blocked, even if a complex does straddle it. | ||
Detroiternthemist Member Username: Detroiternthemist Post Number: 63 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 70.60.145.218 |
What about the Gratiot site ......leave the back of the Fox alone......there's alot of developement going on now. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 1798 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 68.248.1.7 |
I would actually love to see that myself. It is still owned by the Greektown owners, right? I think it would be out of the blue, but I would welcome it. There will be a lot more needed development of the west Foxtown parking lot district once a decision is made and land values un-inflate, as I described in my first post. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2338 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.105.89 |
I believe that the arena will have a similar ownership scenario as Comerica Park and Ford Field, i.e. NOT private ownership. That way the county can use Eminent Domain, something that a privately owned arena probably could not get away with. I don't like the east side location at St. Antoine at all. Not much room for other development. That triangular strip of land between Madison and Gratiot would end up being a giant parking structure, since no other land around that site is available. And then there would not be any other room for restaurants and bars, etc. At least if it was between Cass and Grand River, the west Foxtown area could have development going on (between Cass and Park). And with an arena on Grand River, it would help promote that street as an entertainment destination, what with 2 casinos along that stretch and an arena. I don't think that being closer to MGM than to MotorCity casino matters at all. What would be wrong with the arena getting additional business from MGM sponsored events there?? (Message edited by Gistok on June 22, 2006) | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 1656 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 75.9.243.171 |
Any arena along Grand River would have to force the closure of Cass. Clifford would remain open but it's a one way street heading north. It would have to become a two-way to make up for the closure of Cass. Also, there just seems to be a lot more room between Cass and Park than Grand River and Cass. Also, although they are vacant, there are more buildings between Grand River and Cass that would have to be torn down to make room for an arena than there are between Cass and Park. If the arena was built just west of park, north of Elizabeth(Elizabeth could be cut off if more room is needed), east of Cass, and south of Montcalm, only three buildings would have to be torn down, two abandoned apartments and one occupied apartment on Elizabeth(which could easily be moved closer to Park instead of torn down. If the arena was built between Grand River and Cass, about six to seven buildings would have to be torn down, including the Loyal Order of Moose Building. This is a large building and although vacant, it is worth saving in my opinion. The area behind the Fox is huge. If an arena isn't going to go there, then what can? People here talk about future development, but what other development can go there? Are developers going to build new restaurant buildings? Are developers going to build new townhouses or sky lofts? Will Ilitch sell the lots he owns to developers to build lofts or restaurants and give up parking profits in the process? In addition, an arena north of the Fisher Freeway at the site of the recently torn down Motown Building would destroy the momentum for residential/commercial development in that area. An arena behind Foxtown would make great use of all the vacant land and connect MGM Grand Casino traffic to Foxtown and vice versa. Think of all that free casino parking. Park at the casino and walk over to a Red Wings game. Sounds like a winner to me. (Message edited by royce on June 23, 2006) | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2342 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.105.89 |
Royce, for some reason I thought that the Moose Hall was east of Cass Ave. Well then, I agree with the east of Cass site. Wonder if the same guy owns the Film Vault building (with the orange panels). That building was under renovation while the Tigers were planning a move to west Foxtown, but work immediately stopped when they announced east Foxtown. That was funny! | ||
Hamtramck_steve Member Username: Hamtramck_steve Post Number: 3030 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.73.59.28 |
The Moose Building's not the same owner as the Film Vault. I don't see using eminent domain for the arena with the reversal of Poletown. It might be possible to devise a process that satifies the requirements to use it, but any such action is sure to be challenged in court. The case would surely make its way to the Supreme Court, and the legal challenges would drag out for years. | ||
Bvos Member Username: Bvos Post Number: 1600 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.238.170.50 |
As Hamtown Steve said, eminent domain post-Poletown for public purpose would be a tough go. You'd have to be crazy to try building a stadium using eminent domain. A new stadium would have to be built using private sales of land. So look at areas where large areas of land are already owned by Illitch or areas where a single entity owns large areas of land (old Greektown site, etc.) | ||
1953 Member Username: 1953 Post Number: 896 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 209.104.146.146 |
Last night I went drinking with Friends along Park Avenue. Cliff Bell's, Centaur, and the Town Pump really make that area nice - and with Proof, the State Bar, and Hockeytown around the corner, people can have a really good time in a really small area. That being said, I hope that Park Avenue can be improved without demolition of its signature buildings (i.e. the ones that are still standing). There is a very urban feel there, which is fantastic. | ||
Gmich99 Member Username: Gmich99 Post Number: 103 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 65.29.106.156 |
A recent US Supreme Court case has established that eminent domain be used in any case where the subsequent development will provide a greater good than the previous use. Public or private dollars have not a thing to do with whether or not eminent domain could be employed. There was a recent town vote out East to sell one of the justice's homes to a private developer to turn it into a bed and breakfast. This was meant to show how extreme the consequences of this poor judgement could be. It failed to win the vote, but illustrates how extreme a criteria of any greater good is when siezing private land. Too tired to look up case, will Lexis Nexis it later today and post the case. | ||
Dnvn522 Member Username: Dnvn522 Post Number: 123 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 204.24.64.25 |
Yes, we've had previous discussions about this...and I've used a few of these before too:   | ||
Hamtramck_steve Member Username: Hamtramck_steve Post Number: 3032 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 136.181.195.17 |
Gmich, Michigan's Poletown decision sets a higher standard than the US Supremes did in Kelo V Connecticut. In the US decision, they specifically said that states are free to have tougher eminent domain restrictions. | ||
Bvos Member Username: Bvos Post Number: 1602 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.238.170.50 |
And the opinions in the Kelo case allowed for states to have stricter E.D. standards than the Federal standards. So in Michigan, and increasingly in other states, ED can only be used for public use, not public purpose. | ||
Rjlj Member Username: Rjlj Post Number: 80 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 63.171.81.130 |
How does building a new hockey arena to replace one that currently exists qualify as subsequent development will provide a greater good than the previous use? Eminent domain has not been a consideration and it a mute point related to this subject. | ||
Gmich99 Member Username: Gmich99 Post Number: 104 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 65.29.106.156 |
no official stadium being built, mute thread? c'mon there isn't even much purpose to threads, outside we all obviously enjoy gossiping about detroit. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 296 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 24.192.25.47 |
Since you answered your own question, your post is also mute. BTW, you mean "moot" | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2344 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.81.159 |
Wait a minute.... Comerica Park and Ford Field were built with Eminent Domain. Who actually owns them?? I thought it was the city or county? Didn't the recent Eminent Domain rulings that dealt with Poletown... were in regard to using it for a private use, such as the auto factory. But that begs the question... isn't a publicly owned arena still allowable with Eminent Domain?? The Rock... where are you, we need some legal info here??? Rjlj... Huh??? Can you say that again, but in relation to how Eminent Domain WAS USED for Comerica Park and Ford Field??? Both of which replaced buildings that currently EXIST... | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 3910 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 24.11.154.56 |
I'm not sure about the rest of the questions, but the stadiums are owned by the Detroit/Wayne County Stadium Authority, a quasi-public arms of the city. | ||
Hamtramck_steve Member Username: Hamtramck_steve Post Number: 3034 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.73.59.28 |
Gistok, your questions point to how complicated the issue can become with "public use" and why eminent domain won't be used for the hockey arena. It's possible that CoPa and Ford Field used eminent domain, as their land acquisition came before the Poletown reversal. Even though both buildings are publicly owned, there's pretty strong argument that they are not "public" buildings. You need a ticket to get into both of them when they're open, whereas a city hall is open to anyone just walking into the building. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2349 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.105.98 |
Well if they can't use Eminent Domain for a new hockey arena, then it will really put a kabosh on any Cobo expansions without that tool. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2351 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.81.229 |
Ya know, the more I think about this, the more I am sure that Eminent Domain can still be used for public buildings such as stadiums, arenas and convention centers. The Michigan Supreme Court ruling was for the Poletown plant. And Wayne County was trying to buy up land for their Aeropark next to Metro Airport. Those types of buildings I am sure can no longer use Eminent Domain. But if that ruling were to include arenas, stadiums, airports (proper) and convention centers, wouldn't we have heard about this?? Wouldn't city and county government lament the loss of that tool, and mentioned how it would hinder future Cobo plans??? Still wondering...... | ||
Hamtramck_steve Member Username: Hamtramck_steve Post Number: 3035 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 68.73.59.28 |
You need to reread the court's decision. The case at hand may have been about the aeropark development, but the court's ruling applies to the use of eminent domain for any capacity. Now, like I said, it might be possible that eminent domain could be used. The problem comes in that any use of eminent domain would be challenged by the property owners in court. The case would undoubtedly travel up to the Supreme Court, and the legal process would take years to resolve, not to mention big time bucks for the lawyers. Who would want that kind of headache? Easier to put the new arena on land you already own, or land you can put together yourself. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2354 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.72.59 |
Thanks H_S.... now we know what a Cobo expansion can expect. Look at all the litigation in regards to the Buckland Vanwald warehouse fiasco during the last Cobo expansion. | ||
Docmo Member Username: Docmo Post Number: 46 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 170.232.128.10 |
Isn't the discussed Cobo expansion potentialy going into the space of both Joe Louis Arena and Cobo Arena? At least, that is what the Crains articles indicated. It seems like land acquisition of those two properties should not be a problem. | ||
Detroitstar Member Username: Detroitstar Post Number: 64 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 35.8.144.6 |
What about the Donovan/Sanders buildings site? Perhaps an arena there would bolster new housing and business to connect the downtown and cultural center areas. I know it is not exactly centrally located, but it would not mess up the street grid and it would provide ample space in an area that is ripe for development. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4409 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 141.217.174.192 |
Why not put the New Red Wings Area at Lafayatte Park. So a few low-income homes would be torn but progress must go go on. |
