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Herrera
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Username: Herrera

Post Number: 87
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 66.192.160.40
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 10:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Looking at maps like I always do, I came across some real long city blocks. Between W. McNichols and Puritan are the long blocks of Turner, Tuller, Lilac, and San Juan. Why does Florence street not go all the way through? Anyone know the real anwswer?
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Focusonthed
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Username: Focusonthed

Post Number: 319
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 24.192.25.47
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 10:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think a lot of Detroit (and other cities too) was built in pieces, like suburban subdivisions, except still mostly following the grid system. The only exception is when smaller streets are offset a few feet, or you have the large blocks.
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 6082
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 70.236.198.22
Posted on Friday, June 30, 2006 - 12:23 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Often when the city grew, it occupied land with legacy structures or deeds that for whatever reason were never pursued with eminent domain, so no right-of-way to build a cross street to split the block in two.

Same with the dead-ends...if a land-owner were sufficiently well-connected they could stop a thoroughfare, or keep it dirt.

Sometimes parks were built with land donated to insure these other traffic restrictions happened.
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Mikeg
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Username: Mikeg

Post Number: 91
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 69.136.155.244
Posted on Friday, June 30, 2006 - 7:33 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here's my two cents worth, based on the six years I spent approving subdivision plats as a city planning commissioner in one of those "evil" Metro Detroit suburbs.

Looking at that area using Google Maps in the hybrid mode, it is clear to me that first subdivision to have been developed in that area encompassed the land bounded by McNichols on the north, the rear lot lines along the east side of San Juan, Puritan on the south and the rear lot lines along the west side of Woodingham. At that time, there apparently were no subdivision platting standards for unbroken street lengths and the subdivision plat was approved with the half-mile long blocks you see today.

By the time the land to the east and west was later subdivided, the municipal planners had maximum street length standards and the result was east-west cross streets like Grove and Florence which stub into the rear lot lines of the older sub. However, since the existing sub had already been approved, the city did not have the authority to have the plat revised so that the cross streets could be pushed through. And since no developer is ever going to voluntarily give up two or more lots per street to add a cross street, you have the situation that persists even to this day.
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Herrera
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Username: Herrera

Post Number: 88
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 66.192.160.40
Posted on Friday, June 30, 2006 - 8:49 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Excellent responses. Thank you all very much. Mikeg, your job was probably very interesting. Good to be back, I havent been here in a long time.
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Rustic
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Username: Rustic

Post Number: 2589
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 130.132.177.245
Posted on Friday, June 30, 2006 - 10:15 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One thing I've wondered about those blocks were the alleys. Were there exits to/from the alleys along those looong blocks (there must have been) or were they just 1/2 mile long single lane alleys exiting onto puritan and the alley offa McNicholls. Google hybrid doesn't seem to show anything at least to me. Anyone KNOW the area?

re the lack of cross streets, I'll bet that the land was originally part of Marygrove's campus and was developed piecemeal AFTER the street grid was laid out when Detroit was BOOMING with new housing construction. Someone prolly got some sorta special dispensation (eek!) to make a little more money adding a dozen more houses in that neighborhood than they should have. Yay Detroit!

mikem often posts old city maps I'll bet they show something ... sending out the batsignal for mikem ....

(Message edited by rustic on June 30, 2006)
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Danny
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Username: Danny

Post Number: 4473
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 141.217.84.77
Posted on Friday, June 30, 2006 - 10:34 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There are some more long city blocks in the East Side starting from E. Jefferson to the (Snobbyville) borders.



Those blocks are a 1/2 mile long. No street corners.
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Dougw
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Username: Dougw

Post Number: 1207
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 136.1.1.101
Posted on Friday, June 30, 2006 - 12:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Interesting thread. And thanks to Danny for pointing out those long blocks on the lower east side... I guess I never realized they were quite that long, I will have to check them out. (Although it looks like they are a teeny bit less than a 1/2 mile long.)

I wonder if people prefer living on the long blocks. On the downside, that's a long drive down an alley if you live in the middle of the block, although I'd guess there are plenty of unofficial shortcuts across empty lots these days. On the upside, you have less cross traffic to deal with, and it's probably more secure. Overall I'd guess the positives outweigh the negatives.
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Eastsidedog
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Username: Eastsidedog

Post Number: 598
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 12.47.224.8
Posted on Friday, June 30, 2006 - 5:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dougw, read a little Jane Jacobs. She will explain in exhaustive detail why long city blocks suck, particularly that they isolate parts of neighborhoods because pedestrians (and drivers) have fewer routes to get to points of interest, shopping, etc. With long city blocks people on one side of the block are a lot less likely to visit the other side of the block.
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Royce
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Username: Royce

Post Number: 1675
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 75.9.244.48
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 2:12 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Those blocks that Danny pointed out are mostly vacant. It's a bit scary to ride down them because it's like there's no end in sight, especially when all you see are boarded-up houses or empty lots. The street Philip is so bumpy between Kercheval and Jefferson that once you go down it you'll never do it again.

At certain points between Kercheval and Jefferson you get these various lengths in the side streets. From E. Grand Blvd. to Iroquois you get the streets St. Paul, Agnes, and Lafayette between Kercheval and Jefferson. Between Cadillac Blvd. and St. Jean there are no between streets between Kercheval and Jefferson. Then essentially after Conner you get these long streets such as Lenox, Philip, and Ashland that have no cross streets between Kercheval and Jefferson.

This Jane Jacobs that Eastsidedog pointed out may have a point about long streets. The longness of the ones mentioned above may have contributed to their emptiness. If you didn't live on the street, why would you want to travel by foot or car? You can't get to anything else quickly.

Also, if people don't like to drive down streets because their too long, then how do you get people to notice your house when you want to sell it? Maybe people on these long blocks couldn't sell their homes because they got very little traffic. As a result they had to rent, and we know what usually happens in areas where most of the homes are rentals.

BTW, those streets near Marygrove are so long because they aren't bisected by Grove and Florence like the other streets in that area.
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Naturalsister
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Username: Naturalsister

Post Number: 746
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.30.12.136
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 2:20 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My DPD brother was at a fire station in the area mentioned by Royce. I don't remember the street name, but it was a long bumpy mess.

later - naturalsister
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Eastsidedog
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Username: Eastsidedog

Post Number: 599
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 69.219.118.33
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 9:01 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Royce, the lack of cross streets surely has contributed to their emptiness. Hopefully when the area is redeveloped (which is bound to happen eventually with the recent success of IV, WV and Islandview) they will add cross streets. Otherwise the neighborhood will continue to suffer from the same problems.
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Alexei289
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Username: Alexei289

Post Number: 1188
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.61.183.223
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 1:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

the reasons those blocks are so long ans skinny is because of all the ribbon farmers from the 1700s and 1800s who owned everything from the river to mack ave. but only had land 150 feet wide. Thats where you get the names of the streets.. I.E. Riopelle, Dexter, Baldwin, Townsend, Seyburn. ect. all the last names of the farmers that owned the land.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 1000
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 69.242.223.42
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 1:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Those ribbon farms had no definite length. However, they sometimes clashed with other strips near where the rivers had a convexing bend. In addition, their widths were more typically 400 to 900 feet.

(Message edited by LivernoisYard on July 02, 2006)
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Eastsidedog
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Username: Eastsidedog

Post Number: 603
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 12.47.224.8
Posted on Monday, July 03, 2006 - 11:30 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Alexei289, We're talking about the lack of cross streets (i.e. Lafayette, Agnes, St. Paul). This is what makes the blocks long and unwieldly.

I have heard though that Agnes (Agnes St.) was Moses Field's (Field St.) daughter.
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Rustic
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Username: Rustic

Post Number: 2610
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 128.36.14.165
Posted on Monday, July 03, 2006 - 11:40 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

that would be one looooooong ribbon farm to meander all the way past what is now UofD ... :-)
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220hendrie1910
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Username: 220hendrie1910

Post Number: 29
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 20.137.2.50
Posted on Tuesday, July 04, 2006 - 1:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Royce wrote:


quote:

Those blocks that Danny pointed out are mostly vacant. It's a bit scary to ride down them because it's like there's no end in sight, especially when all you see are boarded-up houses or empty lots. The street Philip is so bumpy between Kercheval and Jefferson that once you go down it you'll never do it again.



On the topic of Philip St. between Kercheval and Jefferson, why is it that Manistique St. (one east) has a missing section in that block? Google Maps shows the street as continuous, but the air photo clearly shows a section not cut through (but with dirt tracks now across it). There appear to be alley outlets to Philip St. at the north and south edges of the property, suggesting that there may have been a monumental building on that site at one time.

Puzzled in Ottawa.
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Mikeg
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Username: Mikeg

Post Number: 112
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 69.136.155.244
Posted on Tuesday, July 04, 2006 - 1:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Looking at the 1961 DTE aerial photo of that area from WSU/CULMA, it appears that it was a school site:

1961 aerial photo of Manistique St., north of Jefferson Ave., Detroit, MI
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Mikem
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Username: Mikem

Post Number: 2624
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.43.15.105
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 12:14 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rustic, I was too busy watching fireworks to see the bat signal. A little birdie delivered the message.

I have no answers, just maps.


1918

1918


1923

1923
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Mikem
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Username: Mikem

Post Number: 2626
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.43.15.105
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 2:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I realized this is the Fitgerald neighborhood, of which I have an intriguing book about its history. Here's a platt map centered on those streets from 1917, apparently an early subdivision. These streets seemd to have been renamed, some more than once, with Lilac the only one to retain its original "flower" name:

Fitzgerald 1917
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Mikem
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Username: Mikem

Post Number: 2627
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.43.15.105
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 2:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A social map of the area, 1900-1925:




The "flower" streets extend halfway from Six Mile (a one lane trail) down to Puritan (Kanada Road). The scalloped line from the left outlines the eastern end of "Burrell's Woods"; according to the map, predominately maple and oak and a good area for hunting squirrels, rabbits, raccoons, and pigeons. Also home to big blue racer snakes.

Tuller (Primrose) evidently had a quicksand bog which nearly took the life of old man Yelinek when he was a young man.
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Rustic
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Username: Rustic

Post Number: 2633
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 128.36.14.165
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 2:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

for gods sake man more images of the "social map"! what the hell is that map?

6-8' snakes, quicksand, rattlesnake pits ... that sounds more like eastside than westside ...

note: that there was apparently a black owned business in that part of town beofre it even became part of town.

finally gypsy music in NW detroit? I thought ya had to go to Delray for that! :-)
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Mikem
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Username: Mikem

Post Number: 2628
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.43.15.105
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 2:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Near the top left corner of the map above is the "Present site of F. Siterlet house" on Violet (Woodingham). However a page in the book dedicated to its history places it at 16784 Turner (Carnation):

quote:

The Siterlet House was built in 1853. Now 118 years old [pub. 1971], the house is the oldest documented house in the region. The basement still contains the original one-foot-thick, pioneer rounded oak beams.

Most of the pioneers lived off the land like the Indians, and like the Indians they gathered berries and went hungry when they found nothing; deer, bear, wild turkey, fox, wildcat, raccoon, squirrel, fowl, and fish were abundant at first. However, some of the pioneers chose to live not off the land, but off the naivete of other people - not only the Indians, but white settlers too. The very first pioneer in Fitzgerald, Gildersleeve Hurd, made his living by swindling other white pioneers.



Siterlet 1898

"The Siterlet house first stood near the corner of Snyder Road (Wyoming) and Kanada Road (Puritan). In this 1898 picture, the pile of cord wood, the garden in the front yard, the uncleaned woods in the background, and the lack of trees around the house despite their gift of shade, point to the continuing battle against the forest even at this late date. It was at the front door of this house that the Ojibwa band from Burrel's (Marygrove) Woods dropped deer meat in barter for corn. Frederick Siterlet stands next to his father."


Siterlet 1918

"The same house in 1918 with a new roof line, basement, porch, windows, and siding. The frontier look is completely gone, and two cars are visible in the barnyard."


Siterlet 1970

"The house was moved in 1922 to its present site, 16784 Turner, just south of McNichols."
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Mikem
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Username: Mikem

Post Number: 2630
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.43.15.105
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 3:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Brown's Thrasher

"Men stand with a power-driven machine, Humphrey Brown's thrasher, at Six Mile and Lilac in 1907. The machines took their price in flesh, too, including one of Brown's arms. How long in such a mechanical environment before one of the bright young men would invent an automobile?"
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Mikem
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Username: Mikem

Post Number: 2631
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.43.15.105
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 3:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I love neighborhood history:


quote:

Another myth explodes under examination. The pioneers did not live in an open egalitarian society. From the beginning, there was great social stratification on the frontier. There were class differences among individual homesteaders, and even greater class differences between homesteaders and renters. The wealthiest homesteaders, like Hurd and Witherell, possessed considerable capital, and hired others to clear the land. Mary Sasançon, a homesteader from the Twelfth Street (Fenkell) Phillips family, suggests both the superiority and the sympathy that many homesteaders felt towards the renters:

I do not mean that renters were bad people, but they just were people who did not seem to get ahead. You know if you did not own anything you had a hard time to save your money to buy it. If you were fortunate enough to have somebody leave you something, perhaps a piece of a farm, you were pretty well set.

In spite of early land ownership, the Pocherts fell on hard times and became one of the poorest families. The father Pochert would not work, and the children never had enough to eat. Other girls at school would give part of their lunch to the Pochert girls, but they would still be hungry and would resort to taking other people’s food. Mrs. Horkey was their favorite target, as Rudy Nemecek reports:

Mrs. Horkey used to put skimmed milk, the whey, in a great big dishpan in the yard for the chickens. They had a high gate and kept it shut because they had a couple of savage dogs. But the Pochert girls would squeeze through that gate and eat that sour milk out ot those pans. They were hungry.

Like many poor people, the Pocherts tended to be touchy. The Pochert girls were never liked by their classmates, the other girls at school, even though these other girls condescended to give them some lunch. When a Pochert girl and another girl from school got into a fight, the Pochert girl’s mother, "Old Lady" Pochert, would really retaliate. Rudy Nemechek tells of one incident:

A Pochert girl was having some trouble with Eda Holman. They had quite a row. When the Pochert girl went home and told her mother, her mother went over to Eda Holman’s house and waited until Eda came out. She attacked Eda on the road and blacked her in the eye. "Old Lady" Pochert was a miserable buzzard.

Old Lady Porchet

The renters sensed their differences from the homesteaders, and formed their own society.

The leader of the "renters" was "Old Jake" or "Chicken Thief" Phillips, as the homesteaders called him. He was not a relative of the 12th Street Phillips’. He worked as a horse jockey (horse trader). Tough but understanding, he was the friend of the other less socially prominent members of the community, including “Nigger Kennedy" and "Black Jack" Cavanaugh.

Monica
The marginal house of "Chicken Thief" Phillips, on Six Mile and Monica.

Chicken Thief
Renters butcher hogs on Six Mile in 1916. The butcher, with a knife in hand, was a narcotics addict whom the renters seemed to treat with sad regret, even tenderness. "Old Jake" or "Chicken Thief" Phillips is seen at the far right of the picture.

"Black Jack" Cavanaugh was Irish, and an alcoholic. Frank Phillips tells how he lived and how he died:

The Cavanaughs still have an undertaking establishment. Bill Cavanaugh, Jack’s brother, laid all my family away. We called him "Black Jack" because he had whiskers that came way down to here and they were black and his hair was curly. He never liked to work. But Jack would not harm anybody. If he had a bottle of whiskey, he had all he wanted. In those days there were gypsies, so when we kids saw Jack we would run. He came up to the house one time and Dad said, 'Jack, you got any potatoes down there?' 'Oh, I might have one or two.' Dad said, 'Well, there is the fork, go out and dig some for yourself.'

"Black Jack" went down off Six Mile and Hamilton and took two of those old piano boxes and put them together. There was a hole in the bottom and he crawled in that hole. It snowed and it was pretty cold, and Dad wanted to see him for something, so we got a horse and a wagon and went on down. Jack lived way back in the woods. I went and knocked on his place and there was no answer; so I went back to Dad and he said, "He must be there because there are no tracks in the snow." So Dad went to look while I held the horses; he found Jack dead. He may have frozen to death. We never knew. His brother buried him, but not from his luneral parlor.

By 1890 farmers began to work the land as a market garden for Detroit. As Detroit grew, the need for huge quantities of vegetables became pressing, and farmers expanded their gardening, which had originally just provided food for their own families. They turned from such products as milk, oats, hay, hogs, and cows, to such cash crops as melons, tomatoes, peppers, cucumbers and green onions, and still later to Will Barr’s berries, especially strawberries. People began to buy automobiles and trucks. Most people no longer had that dirt-poor, that Appalachian poor, look to them.

Gradually, the value of the farms increased. Some farm families did very well. For instance, in 1852, Frederick W. Pochert paid one hundred and sixty dollars for forty acres of land at the southwest corner of McNichols and Livernois. In 1916 the same land (no longer owned by Pochert) sold for two thousand dollars an acre. That is, its value increased five hundred times in sixty-four years. The rise in value was coincident with the expansion of the City of Detroit. Some families, such as the Meyers, did very well indeed.


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Mikem
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Username: Mikem

Post Number: 2633
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.43.15.105
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 5:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To answer Herrera's original question,

"All the forests were thinned by settlers whose lumbering activity peaked between 1850 and 1860, but some of the land was never completely cleared for farming. The strip of land running south from Post Junior High School to Fenkell was known as the Huckleberry Swamp. It was subdivided by Albert and Rudolph Longbegger in a land boom between 1892-1894. Lots were sold and, when the boom was over, the ownership was too confused to be returned to farming and it was pastured as Lonbegger's Commons. A similar strip of land from Puritan to McNichols just east of Greenlawn started as bad swampy farm land which was also subdivided in a premature land boom which clouded the titles and left it in a commons called Reed's. This last bit of irrationality led to the inconvienient half-mile-long streets from Greenlawn east to San Juan with no cross streets."
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Mikeg
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Username: Mikeg

Post Number: 121
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 69.136.155.244
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 5:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mikem - Well done! Some mighty fascinating background info and photos, I might add.
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Danny
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Username: Danny

Post Number: 4501
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Posted From: 198.111.165.50
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 5:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Most of those townships are in the Redford, Dearborn, Fordson and Greenfield TWP. area. Today annexed to Detroit and turned into middle income homes for white-folks and then black-folks moved in and turned into a ghettohood.
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Missnmich
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Username: Missnmich

Post Number: 523
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.32.180.75
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 9:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great job!

Now. Any information on those East Side blocks?
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Neilr
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Username: Neilr

Post Number: 289
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 68.60.139.212
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 9:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I believe that the longest uninterrupted block in Detroit is Fairway Drive between 6 and 7 Mile Roads. It's a straight mile shot with no cross streets at all. And only one open entrance, at 7 Mile.
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Rustic
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Username: Rustic

Post Number: 2636
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 71.234.183.131
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 10:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

mikem comes through!

... so just for the record, Detroit realestate was a snakesnest with dubious title history etc even before Detroit was Detroit.

Yay Detroit!
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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 1291
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 12.64.24.205
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 10:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is from a 1916 map, showing the Eastside streets in question. Need an earlier map to see why nothing went through.

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Dougw
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Username: Dougw

Post Number: 1222
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 136.1.1.154
Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 3:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Dougw, read a little Jane Jacobs. She will explain in exhaustive detail why long city blocks suck, particularly that they isolate parts of neighborhoods because pedestrians (and drivers) have fewer routes to get to points of interest, shopping, etc. With long city blocks people on one side of the block are a lot less likely to visit the other side of the block.



Eastsidedog -- Basically, you are right. Extremely long blocks are probably detrimental to a functioning urban environment... they make it harder to get to corner markets and that sort of thing. I was thinking more in terms of these particular long eastside blocks in their current state, which is not remotely urban.

I drove up Philip St the other day, and it was pretty rough going as Royce says, very bumpy and also desolate, nearly empty of homes. Kind of had the feel of driving down a dirt road in the country. I was thinking that since these blocks are basically dead (for now) as urban areas anyway, it might be a perk that these long blocks provide some extra security through inaccessibility.

But yeah, if this area gets redeveloped with some infill housing at some point, it might be nice to add in a cross street to make the blocks a bit more accessible. There is some urban potential in that area since those blocks are right next to Jefferson.
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Mikem
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Username: Mikem

Post Number: 2667
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.43.15.105
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 11:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Drove by 16784 Turner today to see if the Siterlet house were still there:



The only empty lot on the block.
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Mikem
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Username: Mikem

Post Number: 2671
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Posted From: 68.43.15.105
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 11:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)



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Mikem
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Username: Mikem

Post Number: 2672
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Posted From: 68.43.15.105
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 11:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rustic asked about the alley situation:




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Mikem
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Username: Mikem

Post Number: 2675
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Posted From: 68.43.15.105
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 1:07 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Hurd and Witherell: The Pioneer Syndicate

Gildersleeve Hurd was the first white pioneer in the region. Arriving from Fair Haven, Vermont in Detroit in 1826, he settled up the entire area of what was to become the University of Detroit (from McNichols to Puritan and from Livernois to Fairfield) in 1835. He would seem to be a perfect pioneer with all the red, white and blue credentials. He was a portrait artist, and one of his portraits, of Mrs. James Witherell, is held today by the Detroit Historical Society.

Gildersleeve Hurd had followed his brother, Dr. Ebenezer Hurd, to Detroit. Dr. Hurd seems a brave man:

One summer evening in 1858 Dr. Hurd’s daughter Elizabeth was crossing the railroad bridge which spans the avenue at Dequindre Street. Suddenly a colored man of Herculean build emerged on the bridge from the abutment below and, pointing across the river, said, “I want to get over there. I want to be free.”

Elizabeth went home and informed her father, who immediately put on his hat and coat and sallied forth. He took the fugitive up the river to Pitts Lumber Yard and procured a boat. The fugitive said he could row. He pulled out of the slip with superhuman energy and the boat went swiftly across the river. The doctor watched the boat until it was out of sight, and went home with the consciousness of a good deed well done. (The Sunday News-Tribune, October 25, 1896.)


Dr. Ebenezer Hurd, abolitionist, was also Fitzgerald’s first doctor and probably its best. He married a Witherell of that distinguished Revolutionary War family after whom a downtown street is named; another marriage in the family united the Palmers with the Witherell-Hurds. All this points to a neighborhood pioneer family history of culture, patriotism, and humanism; but it is not the full story.

The incident of the runaway at the bridge also involved Dr. Ebenezer Hurd’s brother-in-law Judge Benjamin Franklin Hawkins Witherell. Before going to her father, Elizabeth Hurd had gone to Witherell, as The Sunday News-Tribune had also reported:

After a moment’s thought she concluded not to summon her father, who was then seventy-nine years of age and generally exhausted after his daily round of calls. So she went to the house of her uncle, B. F. H. Witherell, which was close by.

She found her uncle at home and asked him to get the slave across the river. “What!” said the judge sternly, “Go home. You must not talk to me that way.”


Big Fat Hog


Judge Witherell was a Copperhead, a Northerner with slave-holding sympathies. The Copperheads in Detroit succeeded in burning down the black ghetto in 1863 as part of their “fire in the rear” policy, best exemplified by the “draft riots” in New York in the same year. In 1860, Witherell publicized a one-sided history of an 1833 black rebellion in Detroit in an attempt to create an atmosphere of fear and racism on the eve of the Civil War. Part of the account of the rebellion reads as follows:

During the revolt, the lives and property of the citizens were jeopardized to an extent which rendered it necessary for the Common Council and the Mayor to solicit aid and protection of government troops from Fort Gratiot.

Sheriff Wilson had been dangerously wounded in the execution of his duties. An old Negress, carrying a white rag on the top of a pole, is said to have led a motley crew of Negroes, under her flag, through the principal streets of the city. At length the troops were reported approaching the city and a general scramble for Canada was the result.


The actual historic facts, as opposed to Witherell’s one-sided account, are that in July of 1833 a runaway couple who had been in Detroit for over a year was caught by the local sheriff and jailed for shipment South. A black woman visited the wife in jail and changed places, freeing the woman. “They all looked alike,” even in those days. The next morning the husband was freed by the entire black population, armed to the teeth, who slew the resisting deputy sheriff and seriously injured the sheriff, literally at the southbound stagecoach. This black rebellion ended the hunt for fugitive slaves in Michigan.

Judge Witherell also purchased a large tract to the immediate east of what is today the University of Detroit (McNichols to Puritan, Fairfield to Log Cabin.) He set up his brother-in-law, Gildersleeve Hurd on the very land which was to become the University of Detroit, then the two worked on a flim-flam:

Judge B. F. H. Witherell was a speculator in north Woodward property. He laid out a big parcel of property into lots, in section 15 of the township of Green field, about nine miles from the city hall. They called it Cassandra. He had a wicked partner (Gildersleeve Hurd) who sought to stimulate the sale of lots in an illegitimate manner. This “w.p.” sent down to Ohio and procured several wagon loads of iron ore, which was brought to the subdivision and half-buried in the land. Subsequently the iron was “found” and the newspapers of the day, in advertising Cassandra, dilated on its mineral rocks. (Detroit News Tribune, October 28, 1900.)


Cassandra


Thus, the first white Fitzgerald landowners, Hurd and Witherell, were swindlers, and Witherell was also a racist of treasonable proportions. Nor were Witherells contempories fooled. Wags of the town had a nickname for the portly judge, B. F. H. “Big Fat Hog” Witherell; Witherell, of course, had bankrolled the job. But for all the public scandal, the two robber barons got away with it. Witherell became Michigan Supreme Court Justice, President of the Michigan Historic Society (of which both Hurds were prominent members), and died with great public honor, elaborate tribute from the Michigan Bar and, most of all, with wealth. Hurd, his muscle, had $3,000 worth of property in 1850, a tremendous amount for that day.
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Mikem
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Username: Mikem

Post Number: 2676
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 68.43.15.105
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 1:55 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Did I tell the story of how Father McNichols bought the land for the current site of the University of Detroit?

Horkey farm


quote:

Another important feature of today's landscape, the University of Detroit, was gradually moved during the 1920's from its original downtown site to the present campus in Fitzgerald. The campus occupied land once owned by Gildersleeve Hurd, but most recently by the Horkey family. The Horkeys had several farmhouses, one, the oldest, on Livernois and three on Six Mile. Their land, partially boggy at first, had gradually been improved and agricultural production had intensified with the coming of truck farming. The Horkeys had gone in for green onions in a big way, and had prospered. Except for the elder Horkey's anti-theism, the family was highly conservative.

When Father McNichols, who led the move of the University to its present campus, came to purchase the property, the assembled Horkeys insisted on payment in one dollar bills. Father McNichols was stunned, but evidently retained his practicality, for he and his aides dutifully marched off to the bank and returned with an enormous was of one dollar bills, which the Horkeys counted carefully. After the papers had been signed and the Father had departed, the Horkey family carefully divided the money into small piles, rushed out to the hen house, and placed the piles under various nesting hens. There were enough country slickers around so that the farmers were afraid of robbery, and the entire male contingent of the Horkey clan stood armed guard in the hen house all night, waiting for the bank to open in the morning.



UoD
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Rustic
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Username: Rustic

Post Number: 2685
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 128.36.14.165
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 10:20 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

mikem ... terriffic stuff ... thanks!

Real estate flim flams, abandoned cars, housing blight, crime, a decades old riot used allegorically ...
and you knew who you were then,
girls were girls and men were men
Mr we could use a man like Witherell ... Poindexter ... Dennis Archer(?!) ... LBpatterson again
...
those were the days
....................
Your posts re black people in Detroit in the antebellum north should remind forumers that blacks have had a significant presence in metro Detroit since its earliest days, not just from auto boom mississippi delta diaspora in the 20th century (and not just from the undergrond railroad either).

I like the iron mines, mineral springs and cool clear water in the town of "Cassandra" ... if you compare that to the other map that seems to indicate snake pits (literally), sand pits, quicksand and woods full of criminals and vagrants ... it kinda puts some of the claims of today's developers in historical perspective. -- quick! where to I sign up for a BC condo or a Clinton twp townhome? lol --

.............................. ................

So, it seems that these long blocks are residue of a PRE-Detroit greenfield twp development that has since been overgrown by an auto boom detroit. The housing along these street were likely old (1800s) and generally blighted back when the modern Detroit subdivisions were being built and the lack of cross streets imo likely segregated those streets from the surrounding neighborhoods. I'll bet the housing was eventually torn down and replaced piecemeal and all that's left are these weird long blocks ...

Yay Detroit! What a terrible wonderful place!

(Message edited by rustic on July 13, 2006)
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Danny
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Username: Danny

Post Number: 4550
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 141.217.173.162
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 10:28 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rustic,

It took the power or SEGREGATION, XENOPHOBIA, DEMARCATION, THE GREAT JEWISH EXODUS AND WHITE FLIGHT to make Detroit ghettohoods black, blighted, crummy, dirty and improperly unclean and crime laden what it is today. YAY Detroit!! The great Black city.
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Royce
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Username: Royce

Post Number: 1725
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 69.209.152.173
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 1:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just a thought about city blocks. In Woodbridge the blocks are very short as opposed to the streets like Philip along Jefferson, east of Conner and west of Alter. Could the shortness of Woodbridge blocks be one of the reasons for its success, good walkability and easy access by car?

Now where my parents live and where I grew up we were sandwiched between Warren and Forest. On average each side of the street could house up to 25 houses. I believe that Woodbridge blocks contain less than half this number of houses on a given side of a block. There are only seven houses remaining on each side of my parents' block. Again, I wonder if the length of the block plays apart in its abandonment?

I know that there are many factors that go into the success and failure of a neighborhood. Could having shorter blocks in many areas of Detroit have slowed or eliminated so much of the blight?

BTW, I just got the bio of the late Jane Jacobs and can't wait to read her groundbreaking book "The Death and Life of Great American Cities."

(Message edited by royce on July 25, 2006)
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Bvos
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Username: Bvos

Post Number: 1735
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 134.215.223.211
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 1:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Those long blocks on the eastside are supposed to be broken up into shorter blocks by the east/west streets as part of the Far Eastside Plan (if the FEP ever happens). The city planning department is aware of the problems it causes from a neighborhood viability standpoint.

Once again, a big WOW and thanks to MikeM, MVP. Where do you get this stuff!? Is it just lying around your house?
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Eastsidedog
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Username: Eastsidedog

Post Number: 678
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 12.47.224.8
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 1:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Royce, "Death and Life" is great book. Unfortuantely she has few kind words for Detroit. Detroiters pretty much did every single thing that she said would destroy a city, freeways everywhere, lack of diversity of use, one way streets, lack of density (she says you need 100 units per acre to have a thriving successful city). It can be depressing when you realize how badly Detroit fucked up - and continues to fuck up. Although I must say there are many in Detroit fighting an uphill battle trying to implement some of her ideas, but it is such a grueling fight against the city and against the rest of ignorant suburban-minded society. Yeah, BTW she hates suburbs.
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Eastsidedog
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Username: Eastsidedog

Post Number: 679
Registered: 03-2006
Posted From: 12.47.224.8
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 1:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So there is hope Bvos.

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