  Ventura67 Member Username: Ventura67 Post Number: 42 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 68.41.239.143 |
I spent some time in downtown Milwaukee last week and could not help but to compare and contrast it with Detroit. Downtown Milwaukee is in impressively good shape. Saw just a few boarded-up buildings, not the ruined or neglected ones like in Detroit, just mothballed and waiting for their time once again. Nearly all of the city's pre-depression buildings were in fabulous shape and occupied, many undergoing or having finished restoration, many others looking like they were never neglected. The Pabst Theater is beautiful. City hall, a very impressive building, is undergoing a VERY intensive restoration, and it doesn't look like it was that bad to begin with. They are taking down each decorative peice one-by-one and restoring them or remaking them on the spot. While Milwaukee's buildings are not generally on the scale of Detroit's, there is a beautiful city fabric that is left intact. There are no gaping holes where buildings once stood. There are no freeways gouged out of downtown. The CBD is very clean. My biggest complaint was the occasional post 1950's buildings intermixed with the old turn-of-the-century architecture, looks odd. (Better than weeds, gravel or parking lots, though). We hung out in Cathedral Square, a main park. A few bums but not one of them ever approached us looking for hand-outs or to harass us. Went to the River Walk area, where several restaraunts and grand buildings line up along the Milwaukee River, which is a very nice, scaled-down version of the Chicago riverfront. A lot of people out enjoying the city all on a Thursday afternoon. Ate some great Thai. It just makes me feel sadder about Detroit. By the way, drove through Chicago for the first time in half a dozen years, unbelievable progress as they continue to make that one of the world's classiest cities once again. Rotting neighborhoods rejuvinated all over the city. Will Detroit ever be more than what it has become? I lose hope when I see these other midwestern cities that are making substantial comebacks, while Detroit still smolders and crumbles. | ||
Livedog2 Member Username: Livedog2 Post Number: 572 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 24.223.133.177 |
Ditto Indianapolis! Of course they don't have the same kinds and amounts of problems we have in Detroit. I say tear that schitt down and start over. Maybe FLW had the right idea. Monument Circle  Livedog2 | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 6227 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.136.149.133 |
Excuse me, Ventura, but I'm curious if you've ever been to Detroit. We're in the middle of a multi-billion dollar renovation spree, with almost weekly announcements of adaptive reuse of abandoned buildings. And all you see is smoldering and crumbling? | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 6228 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.136.149.133 |
Oh, and the Cathedral Square and Thai food references really got me jealous. If only downtown Detroit had some sort of central park that attracted lots of people, maybe with some statuary, a monument and, I dunno, a fountain... with Thai food nearby... Guess I'll just have to keep dreaming. | ||
Ventura67 Member Username: Ventura67 Post Number: 43 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 68.41.239.143 |
Ah..... yes, Born here, raised here. I want to be a believer, I really do. But the city's fabric has been shredded beyond repair or recognition. The facade of pet projects cannot compare to the disinvestment of the last 40 years. Restored buildings are nice in-and-of themselves but what about the structure of the city, the continuity that makes it a city? Every building lost, every neighborhood shattered is another hole in the irreplaceable fabric of this city's identity. Sure, you can restore or remodel a few buildings here and there but the stripmalls, cheap condos, and parking lots in between make those buildings stand out like sore thumbs. That's what I see that has not happened as badly in our midwestern neighbors; Milwaukee, Chicago, St. Louis, Cleveland. They are able to reconnect the intricate patterns of cityhood, if they were ever disconnected in the first place. (Not to suggest these are flawless cities, I am discouraged by how much faster they are making their comebacks.) Detroit, I feel, may never be able to stand as a coherent city again. It may only ever be a shadow of its former self, and that is sad. | ||
Ventura67 Member Username: Ventura67 Post Number: 44 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 68.41.239.143 |
I do have a hard time going to Campus Martius and not getting begged for money or harassed, I did miss that while in Milwaukee! | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 6229 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.136.149.133 |
Christ, and people call me a drama queen. | ||
Ventura67 Member Username: Ventura67 Post Number: 45 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 68.41.239.143 |
Don't take me too seriously, I just wish better things for the city and like to look towards other places to see where we stand. | ||
Livedog2 Member Username: Livedog2 Post Number: 574 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 24.223.133.177 |
Ventura67, your reality is as valid as anyone’s. I hear you and agree with you. Detroit is beyond repair as far as I am concerned. There has never been a major metropolitan area in the history of the world that has lost the amount of population that Detroit lost. There are many reasons for the demise of the city but the overriding reason was cross district bussing forced on the people of the City of Detroit by the federal government. It was a disastrous experiment that continues to reverberate and cascade into the present and foreseeable future. With “white flight” the city was left to the black population and I won’t go into that can of worms other than to say that Detroit is again the only major metropolitan area that can elect a black person to any elected position without a coalition. I’m not saying that electing a black person to an elected position is bad what I am saying is that no one else has any input to the system as in a coalition and that’s bad. The white people in the Metro-Detroit Area, right or wrong or for good or ill, are not going to concede and/or support a city they perceive they have no input into. The way it stands now is that we are seeing a Mexican Stand-off. Meanwhile the city is crumbling, decaying, going broke and slowly suffocating to death. Stick around it’s going to get curioser and curioser! I love the City of Detroit but what I love is what it was and it’s not that anymore. Livedog2 | ||
Mind_field Member Username: Mind_field Post Number: 591 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.38.24.65 |
I think everyone that travels to another city likes to make comparisons to their hometowns, and those comparisons can seem especially stark when your hometown is Detroit. Admitedly, the pace of development in this city can seem mind-warpingly slow, even moreso now that we don't have a huge event looming in our future. But those other midwestern cities would kill for some of the ammenities that Detroit has. They don't have the Fox Theater, or a restored Opera House. They don't have an incredible sports scene with 3 out of 4 franchises in the city limits. They don't have an international waterfront, a bustling Greektown, or a vibrant Campus Martius Park. They don't have a Guardian, Fisher, or Penobscot building. The list goes on. Detroit had its own unique set of events that made our decline one of, if not the most severe in the nation. So we had to play catch up to our midwestern neighbors just to be at their level. But Detroit's potential is far far greater than St. Louis, Cleveland, Cincinnati, or Indianapolis. I'm not going to be ridiculous and claim that we can ever compare remotely to Chicago, that city makes us look like a backwater village. | ||
Illwill Member Username: Illwill Post Number: 71 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 71.194.123.139 |
I think Detroit has come along way over the last 5 years or so. The only thing that scares me is the state and local economy. I currently live in Chicago and would like to return home to Detroit, however I feel the city is unable to sustain the type of work that I do. I'm constantly reading about all of the cuts and layoffs that are taking place in the city and quite frankly, it worries me. People are also leaving Chicago in large numbers because it's getting pretty expensive, but at the same time the buildings are filling up just as quickly with thousands of young college grads and empty nesters. I wish Detroit could somehow get more businesses in the city because if that were to happen, this city could easily compete with any other city in this country. But until then... | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 963 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Consider this: Both Milwaukee and Detroit had their race riots on the very same night. One city recovered nicely after the National Guard took control--a minor hiccup, whereas one city didn't. Unbeknownst to me, I had the minor inconvenience of driving my hog Harley through the riot area that night and having some sheriff deputies pointing their sawed-off shotguns while going home from the radio station where I was its chief engineer. So after a few minutes of delay, I left but made a slight detour home. No big deal, really. Still, Milwaukee and Detroit are considered to be the two most racially segmented US cities. | ||
Hunchentoot Member Username: Hunchentoot Post Number: 29 Registered: 03-2005 Posted From: 69.14.75.150 |
I visited Milwaukee several times in the last year. They have a very useful bus system and a great public library. Downtown has a sort of run-down area away from the mall and riverwalk and so on, but even that area seemed to be bubbling with activity under the surface and a new market has just been constructed there. I'm told there are bad neighborhoods. I allegedly rode the bus through one of them but things looked OK to me. There are boarded up buildings, but they're surrounded by city, not prairie. Since the city proper seemed like such a nice place to live, I was surprised when my friend's roommate badmouthed it, suggesting she's ready to move out as soon as she can. I told her to calm down and that if she thought things were bad that they had a long, long way yet to fall (actually, maybe that's not a very calming idea, huh?). She's a school teacher and claimed the Milwaukee public schools were horrendous and I sort of didn't think they could be so bad. Of course I don't live there so I don't know to what degree these things are valid. I even got a little bit of vibe from some of the suburbanites that they had a resentment for the city in the same way suburban Detroiters do, except a little milder. I felt the infrastructure in the city is comparable to Detroit's if the nine-lane roads were narrowed and half the freeways pulled out; it's mostly residential housing on somewhat small lots. It's magical to leave the city and be soon met with famland and not with Rochester Hills. Also, it's less than two hours from Chicago. I think Detroit is left out of the groundswell redevelopment that other rust-belt cities enjoy because it's like a sink full of dishes left for weeks. The other cities have their bowls to clean off and pots and pans to scour, but Detroit has to chisel off last month's oatmeal and bleach the vegetable stew mold off the basin before it can even begin with a quick sponge-down. There's a momentum that is lost when instead of just needing some historical stonework cleaned as might be the case if an old building had been kept in use or closed breifly and properly sealed, it requires hundreds of millions of dollars just to get it in usable condition. Here's a complaint about The Cream City (so-named for the former color of its streets, not for the dairy industry): no alcohol is sold after 9pm unless it's in a bar. Not very nice for a place famous for beer. | ||
Pam Member Username: Pam Post Number: 279 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 4.229.141.94 |
The Cream City name comes from bricks:
(wikipedia) I was just in the Milwaukee area this week too. I thought the parts I saw of the city were in good shape but they still had a ton of suburban sprawl. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 126 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 64.131.176.232 |
Haha, cross district bussing?!?!? Yeah, that's it. Why didn't I think of that? It couldn't have been the racism. Nope. Cross district bussing forced 1 million white people to flee a city. (Message edited by iheartthed on June 30, 2006) | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7530 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.251.24 |
Ventura - Did you venture into all of the neighborhoods of the other cities. Why do so many compare downtowns of other cities to Detroit as a whole. (Damn - Coming out of retirment a tad early for a day) | ||
Dnvn522 Member Username: Dnvn522 Post Number: 126 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 204.24.64.25 |
Glad they don't have any of those pesky freeways downtown. Especially I-94...I'd hate to have I-94 going through beautiful Milwaukee. Lucky bastards.  | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 192 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 65.92.153.43 |
I liked Milwaukee when I visited also. There is no doubt, the downtown has seen better days. Its retail is lacking. But other then that, the city does not seem in that bad of shape. Downtown Milwaukee is reversed downtown  On a Saturday morning it was dead, when we where walking around. Just a few people strolling around. But man at night after 7PM, downtown was just totally packed with people going out to restaurants and clubs, etc. Was so weird that the main street was totally packed on a Saturday night, but totally devoid of people during the day. Nice city though and has amazing potential. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 10256 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 64.118.137.226 |
No..no...no...we call you DRAG queen. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 966 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
I-94 downtown Milwaukee is just off or in the Menominee River valley industrial flats. As such, it displaced few older commercial/industrial buildings. No big deal. Very few (if any) people lived there anyway. I used to love the smells of Milwaukee: its one-time six breweries, the Ambrosia Chocolate factory downtown where Jeffrey Dahmer worked, the Red Star Yeast Company along I-94 near 27th Street... | ||
Rocket_city Member Username: Rocket_city Post Number: 71 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 141.217.214.203 |
^ I think it's because we all want so much for our city, that it's easy to wonder how other cities' successes can be had in our own, and what we need to do to get to that point of vitality. Whenever I travel to new places, I'm always thinking of how it compares to Detroit, both positively and negatively. | ||
Tomoh Member Username: Tomoh Post Number: 238 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.136.10.153 |
Milwaukee is a good old mid-sized rustbelt city with some dense residential neighborhoods and I'm not going to disparage the city. But when comparing it to Detroit, after seeing that one is in better shape than the other, one should consider the scale of the two cities. Despite the long hard fall of Detroit in both buildings and people, it still remains more densely populated than Milwaukee. There still remains more developed urban land in Detroit, the fabric of street layouts and zoning, there is still almost twice the population in Detroit, and almost twice as many highrises in Detroit's downtown, which are much taller. Many of them, of course, are in disrepair. Detroit has lost a lot yet it still remains a large city with a lot remaining relative to other rustbelt cities, excluding Chicago. So Milwaukee is much closer to realizing its potential, while Detroit has much potential remaining. I think that is exciting in and of itself. Some folks would prefer a smaller city and could care less about the relative size of Detroit. Well, if you really want to talk about smaller cities that are in great shape with totally renovated downtowns, you needn't go further than Windsor or Ann Arbor. Anyways, yes, much damage has been done to Detroit's urban fabric, especially (or mostly) in the core. Many buildings remain, and almost all the streets and blocks that make up the fabric remain (excluding certain recently created superblocks). Things are improving and have been for a good five years, which is a shorter time than many other rustbelt cities, but it's now happening and in several different areas of the core and much more is clearly underway for the immediate future. | ||
Hysteria Member Username: Hysteria Post Number: 657 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 216.223.168.132 |
Very well put, Tomoh. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 4475 Registered: 02-2004 Posted From: 141.217.84.77 |
What make Milwaukee better than Detroit? It's a small population of under 600,000. They produce a lot of beer and a racially demarcated neighborhoods. Blacks moslty in the north and northwest side, whites in the lower south side and ethnic Hispanics in the near south side. It has a well develop booming downtown and excellent modern skyline.  For City development – An unprecedented amount of urban development is happening throughout Milwaukee in the form of new construction, historic renovation and neighborhood revitalization. The downtown condo industry continues to boom as increasing numbers of people desire to live, work and play amongst the unlimited opportunities of downtown Milwaukee. Historic renovations can be seen in the Third Ward, Walkers Point, Brewers Hill and many other neighborhoods. The Hillside neighborhood project and Tower Automotive site are among many redevelopment efforts in areas of the City affected by economic hardship. WHY CAN DETROIT DO THAT!!! OH YEAH KING KWAME AND HIS T.H.U.G. MAFIA AND THE REST OF THE CITY "CLOWNSIL" ARE SO BUSY TALKING ABOUT THIS AND THAT SO THEY CAN'T FIGURE WHY THIS CITY IS LOSING MANUFACTURING JOBS, CITY WORKERS ARE REVENUE MONEY. Milwaukee Green Team – Mayor Barrett recently launched the Milwaukee Green Team – a group of eleven business, community and environmental leaders who will create a plan for a greener, cleaner Milwaukee. The Milwaukee Green Team will provide recommendations on innovative, cost-efficient ways the City and private sector can preserve Lake Michigan, reduce energy costs and create jobs in the growing environmental technology and green building industries. The City of Milwaukee already has many green projects, including Highland Gardens, a public housing facility that features the largest residential modular green roof in the country. FINALLY DETROIT IS CATCHING UP WITH ITS CLEAN DOWNTOWN PROGRAM BY NEXT DETROIT CO. BUT WILL IT LAST? Vacant Lots & Abandoned Buildings – The City of Milwaukee sold over 200 lots in 2004. The sale of these lots will result in over $30 million in neighborhood redevelopment. In addition, Mayor Barrett recently signed a City ordinance that aims to force owners of boarded-up buildings to repair or sell their properties instead of leaving them empty. These efforts provide economic opportunity while greatly improving the appearance of Milwaukee's neighborhoods. THAT'S FUNNY DID DETROIT'S CITY "CLOWNSIL" AND KING KWAME HAVE A URBAN DEVELOPMENT PLANNER. THEY DO BUT THIS PERSON IS LOUSY! THEREFORE OVER 40,000 VACANT LOTS IN MOST DETROIT GHETTOHOODS ARE TURNING TO CRUD. WHAT ABOUT THE " CLOWNSILWOMAN" THAT FORMER MOTOWN SINGER MARTHA REEVES. DID SHE CLEAN UP HER ACT CONCERNING ABOUT HER VACANT PROPERTIES? HELL NO!!! While Milwaukee continues develop. Detroit is stuck in the stone age. | ||
Ray1936 Member Username: Ray1936 Post Number: 665 Registered: 01-2005 Posted From: 207.200.116.139 |
Here's a Detroit/Milwaukee connection worth a chuckle. At least it was to me. There was a Detroit Police Commander, Phil Arreola, who retired back about 1985. Phil had fine academic and professional credentials, so applied for several Chief of Police positions around the country. Milwaukee was one of them, and after the usual intensive interviews and all, he was hired by Milwaukee. Just one month after he took the position, the Jeffery Dahmer case broke, and Phil had one of the worst can of worms on his hands that any Police Chief could have (due to the inefficiency of certain Milwaukee police officers that were involved). I don't believe Phil lasted there a full year. Last I heard, he was in some podunk in Colorado. | ||
Jiminnm Member Username: Jiminnm Post Number: 804 Registered: 02-2005 Posted From: 68.35.85.184 |
Actually Ray, he was chief in Milwaukee for 7 years, and then chief in Tacoma Washington for 2 years after that. He is now with DOJ in Denver, as Region Director of Community Relations. | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 6240 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 208.27.111.125 |
People, can we stay on track here? Detroit is a cesspool of grime and decay without any Thai restaurants. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7535 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.251.24 |
I went looking for a Thai restaurant downtown but couldn't find one and was shot when I asked a band of angry panhandlers where I could find some Thai food. They also took my car and have since layed claim to my home. All because I wanted Thai food downtown. | ||
Mind_field Member Username: Mind_field Post Number: 592 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 67.38.24.65 |
^LMAO @ Jt1. I had a similar experience. Except I was beaten and kicked by a band of angry homeless nuns. | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 6241 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 208.27.111.125 |
The nuns in Milwaukee generally keep to themselves. | ||
Rustic Member Username: Rustic Post Number: 2591 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 130.132.177.245 |
itsjeff, but milwaukee smells yeasty ... I dunno about you but that's kinda a turnoff ... yuck! | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 6242 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 208.27.111.125 |
That's the nuns you're smelling. | ||
Bibs Member Username: Bibs Post Number: 514 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.159.18 |
I recently spent 4 1/2 days in downtown Pittsburgh. Some minor areas of downtown Pittsburgh are abandoned but the buildings are still in reasonably good shape. The pollution from the steel mills still coats old retaining walls and historic buildings. I arrived at the new airport terminal and then took I-94 East Bound through Detroit to I-75 North Bound. Along this stretch of I-94, all the bridges have been painted mostly white with a blue strip. The sun was shinning and the sky was blue. I noticed that some of the homes along I-94 in Detroit had new siding. I thought to myself that Detroit and that stretch of I-94 has never looked better. Th | ||
Matt_the_deuce Member Username: Matt_the_deuce Post Number: 653 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.14.248.252 |
Certain things from my childhood were just cleared up | ||
Matt_the_deuce Member Username: Matt_the_deuce Post Number: 654 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.14.248.252 |
timing | ||
Rustic Member Username: Rustic Post Number: 2592 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 130.132.177.245 |
itsjeff, is it bad hygiene or simply bad habits? (Message edited by rustic on June 30, 2006) | ||
Dalangdon Member Username: Dalangdon Post Number: 37 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 66.54.213.11 |
I only know Milwaukee from going through it on the train at Christmas, but it's been interesting to see the warehouse district immediately south of the station develop. It used to be nothing but abandoned buildings, but every year there is more and more development, and you see more and more apartments with people in them. | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 1153 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.222.11.226 |
Amazing how Ventura67 makes some valid points and then how the Detroit Rah-Rah Squad gets so defensive. I've been to Milwaukee a few times. It has a lot of positive, vibrant energy. It is, simply, a very livable city that's miles ahead of Detroit on the comeback trail. No doubt about it, Detroit could learn a thing or two from Milwaukee. | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 6243 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 208.27.111.125 |
Ventura's observations would have been better received if he'd been a little less dramatic about the present state of Detroit. I'm fine with his report on the state of downtown Milwaukee, but then he had to add, wrongly, that Detroit is "smoldering and crumbling." He then evidenced Milwaukee's superiority by discussing their nice public square and availability of Thai food. Actually, downtown looks better than it ever has in my lifetime and is midway through billions of dollars of investments. And we ain't exactly lacking in a good public square or Thai restaurants ourselves. When I pointed that out to him, he denied it and said that Detroit has been "shredded beyond repair." Then I'm pretty sure he had a good cry. I'm game for honest criticism of Detroit, but the "crumbling, smoldering" stuff was silly and worthy of a little derision. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 7536 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 198.208.251.24 |
I'm still waiting to hear if he went through all of the neighborhoods for an apples to apples comparison. Too many around here go to other cities, see their touristy areas then compare that to Detroit as a whole. Downtown Milwaukee is nice and a lot of fun but you can't fairly compare downtowns to entire cities. Drop me in the biggest slum in Chicago then let me compare that to downtown Detroit. Would it be a fair comparison? | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2369 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.90.154 |
Livedog2.... one footnote on your population loss comments.... Rome went from a million plus people during the time of the Caesar's 2000 years ago to less than 20,000 during the dark ages. Even by the time new St. Peter's basilica was started in 1506, the population was only about 25,000. That number greatly increased again during the renaissance, and today numbers about 2.5 million. | ||
Jjw Member Username: Jjw Post Number: 128 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 68.33.56.156 |
I lived in Milwaukee for six years after graduating from Wayne state. MIlwaukee has some down-and-out neighborhoods but they are few in number, very few. Most of the neighborhoods are vital and active. In fact, in Milwaukee--most people enjoy their Friday or Saturday night in the neighborhood--not downtown. They really don't obsess with downtown this and downtown that. Now I live in Baltimore and the same is true here. Baltimore progressed because of the neighborhoods--not downtown. There is hope for Detroit with the urban pioneers in Corktown and the great neighborhoods of southwest Detroit and Hamtramck. Once the surrounding areas of downtown get developed, the downtown area will begin to greatly improve. But really folks--there is a REAL BIG DIFFERENCE between Milwaukee,Baltimore and Detroit---the car thing. Im Milwaukee and Baltimore, people use mass transit and don't rely so heavily on cars to get around. Go to an Orioles game---more than half the people who are in attendance used mass transit to get there and home. --- | ||
Dabirch Member Username: Dabirch Post Number: 1637 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 208.44.117.10 |
Ummm...itsjeff...ummm...walk down your street a block or two...or actually not even a full block. Or take Parker a few blocks north of Kerchavel. Or take Goethe a few blocks East of Burns. You live in a small island. It is a lovely island. But it is very small and surrounded by huge swaths of smoldering and crumbling (with the occasional even smaller island cutting in to the smoldering and crumbling). Now that we have that out of the way, what can we learn from Milwaukee? | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 6247 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 208.27.111.125 |
That imbibing in its most famous export makes one an unbearable, pompous ass. | ||
Dabirch Member Username: Dabirch Post Number: 1639 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 208.44.117.10 |
or a blind fool... Love ya, buddy. | ||
Rustic Member Username: Rustic Post Number: 2594 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 130.132.177.245 |
Its late and she's waiting and I know I should go home But every time I start to leave they play another song Then someone buys another round and wherever drinks are free What's made Milwaukee famous has made a fool out of me Babys begged me not to go so many times before She says love and happiness can't live behind those swinging doors Nows she's gone and I'm to blame to late I finally see What's made Milwaukee famous has made a loser out of me Babys begged me not to go so many times before She says love and happiness just can't live behind those swinging doors Nows she's gone and I'm to blame to late I finally see What's made Milwaukee famous has made a loser out of me What's made Milwaukee famous has made a loser out of me (Message edited by rustic on June 30, 2006) | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1785 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 209.131.7.68 |
Really, in Milwaukee? From what I've seen I wouldn't have guessed they use transit much more than Detroit. I'm going back this weekend acutally. Taking the ferry! | ||
Jjw Member Username: Jjw Post Number: 129 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 68.33.56.156 |
Used it the entire time I was there along with many others--just buses in Milwaukee but dependable and widely used. For a hoot, hit the National Liquor Bar on National and 27th. | ||
Eastsidedog Member Username: Eastsidedog Post Number: 595 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 12.47.224.8 |
Here's my take: When I think of Milwaukee the only thing that comes to mind is beer. With Cinncinnati... Ohio. With Pittsburgh, steel. Woopie. What Detroit has going for it is that it's immense cultural significance is on par with any other big American city - be it NYC, Chicago, or LA. When I think of NYC I think of the Bronx - the birthplace of Hip Hop, Manhattan, Central Park, the Statue of Liberty. When I think of Chicago I think of the Blues, House Music, Mies Van Der Rohe, and Wax Trax (well most probably don't think of Wax Trax but...). When I think of LA I think of Hollywood, Movie Stars, gangsta rap, the bloods and crips, palm trees, ocean and hard rock bands. When I think of Detroit, I think of Motown, Garage Rock, Rap, Techno, and Cars (If you ask most people from the U.S. and abroad they will probably list in this order: Cars, Motown music, 8 mile and Eminem). Milwaukee may seem nicer and more stable than Detroit but If I had to live there I think I'd be be bored as hell in a month. Gimme big, bad, ugly and packed with potential Detroit anyday. It may seem like a hell hole but at least it's memorable and important, kinda like New Orleans was. | ||
Jjw Member Username: Jjw Post Number: 130 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 68.33.56.156 |
I love that optimism but I don't think Detroit is in the same league as NYC or Chicago. When I think of Detroit, I think of people living and working in a big city but with none of its benefits. Sorry. | ||
Eastsidedog Member Username: Eastsidedog Post Number: 596 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 12.47.224.8 |
Culturally, Detroit is totally in the same league! Imagine America without automobiles and everything that goes with them (the good and the bad). Imagine America without Aretha Franklin, Stevie Wonder, Eminem or the sounds of Techno. Music and Cars are of huge cultural significance the world over and all from a run down rust belt midwestern city that only maxed out a 2 million people. Detroit's at least on par with New Orleans... and we're bigger too. | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 6248 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.136.149.133 |
When I think of Detroit, I think of people living and working in a big city but with none of its benefits. Sorry. Jjw, may I ask what benefit you want from a big city that you can't get in Detroit? Except for mass transit and retail, pretty much everything else is here. Arts & culture, universities, every pro sport, major hospitals & research centers, fine dining, important architecture and 30 minutes away is an airport that will take you anywhere in the world. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 969 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Having that 30-minute exit strategy option is a big plus for Detroit. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on June 30, 2006) | ||
Tomoh Member Username: Tomoh Post Number: 240 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.136.10.153 |
Detroit even has a tunnel right in its downtown that can take you to another country if you need to get out! But seriously, DTW is a pretty damn good asset. The exit strategies for people living in smaller cities involves a layover at DTW whereas Detroiters have a direct flight out. | ||
Jjw Member Username: Jjw Post Number: 131 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 68.33.56.156 |
every morning, i walk for 4 hours from 530-930. I do this to help with my health and also to enjoy baltimore. as i walk, i get a small glimpse into the city waking up. it is a great way to start the day and encompasses many neighborhoods and the downtown area. i enjoy that aspect of my life and i want to live in a city that is walkable. yes, detroit has many fine institutions. i have yet to see many museums in the US that can compare to the DIA and i am a graduate of Wayne State and go to their alumni gatherings in the DC area. Detroit has great restaurants and beautiful architecture. it has all of those things a city needs---sparingly and always with great distance. I am not a car person. That is why I left Detroit. And... I guess I just feel whenever I am there and when I lived there that the hassle of daily life there far outweighed the enjoyable moments--driving everywhere, horrible buses, few if anyone walking, great distances, crime, and very few enjoyable, walkable areas. So jeff--in answer to your question, I am only going to live once and I have chosen to live in a place that has those aspects that I personally love. I am not criticizing you or Detroit. If you love cars, it is the town to be in. The same goes for LA--not for me. And... I hardly ever think about that airport here--it is there if i need it but i really don't have the need to "get away" By the way---go Tigers---rooting for ya!! | ||
Jjw Member Username: Jjw Post Number: 132 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 68.33.56.156 |
by the way, I can imagine America without Eminem and it's not looking to bad | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1143 Registered: 06-2004 Posted From: 69.130.18.100 |
prairie makes a neighborhood bad? I thought crime did. or do those roaming pheasants have some vices I don't know about? Maybe they're instigators of the anti-Thai restaurant attacks? (most recent: Wabash & Pine last night - struttin' his stuff into the street) | ||
Livedog2 Member Username: Livedog2 Post Number: 576 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 71.10.61.35 |
Hey Gistok you said,
Compare the timelines for population loss between Rome and Detroit! Dramatic, no? Besides we don't live in Rome 2000 years ago we live in Detroit, now! I think it might have been better to have lived in Rome during those times. Livedog2 | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 127 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 64.131.176.232 |
I drove through Baltimore once on my way to New York and a good bit of it looked worse than many parts of Detroit. I was viewing the city from my car window and the brief stop off at Walmart, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. But if you don't think Detroit is iconic then you must be living under a rock or something. Current state aside, it ranks up there with NYC, Chicago and L.A. in terms of cultural significance, hands down. Certainly much more than Milwaukee, New Orleans, or even Baltimore (not to throw stones at B-more, but I'm just sayin...). I live in NYC and I met a guy from Brazil a few days ago who lives here too. When I told him that I was from Detroit he went wild. He said he was really into techno and Detroit was way more interesting than New York. Granted, it doesn't sound like he's ever been, but just for someone from another country to have that impression of Detroit speaks volumes. You'd be hard pressed to get that type of reaction for a Charlotte or Pittsburgh. | ||
Ventura67 Member Username: Ventura67 Post Number: 46 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 68.41.239.143 |
There is no doubt that the great heritage that Detroit carries keeps it famous; and it is certainly one of the greatest heritages of any American city. But how many of you still wear that jean jacket that made you look so cool in high school out to find dates and expect it to get you laid. Keep the jacket in the closet and just keep yourself groomed and handsome as you go through time and the girls will still find you attractive. Stop shaving and bathing though, and things get dicier. (obscure analogy?) No, I didn't walk every neighborhood on my visit to Milwaukee, but, I haven't walked every one in Detroit either, even after living here for 30 years. You do get an impression of the current state of affairs, though. A side story, several years ago I visited friends in Milwaukee for the 4th of July. On a drive through some northern neighborhoods I saw an area that was obviously once slum but was nicely recovering, just like Cork town 10 years ago. Most of the houses had been restored or rejuvinated very nicely but every 5th or 6th one was as bad as any you'd see in central Detroit. As I said it was the 4th of July and the only U.S. flag I saw hanging off a house was on one of the worse ones in the neighborhood. I should of knocked on that door and met that family. Weird? | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 1628 Registered: 07-2004 Posted From: 4.229.132.135 |
I love Detroit.But to compare it culturally to NYC, Chicago or New Orleans culturally is wrong.Detroit has made some great contributions.But then so has Pittsburgh and Philadelphia and Boston and Baltimore and Cleveland and probably some other cities as well.Each of these cities has had a black musical heritage similar to Detroits. However in Chicago and New Orleans much of the music was germinated and has it's origins in those cities as well as the south in general. Nyc is....well....Nyc it is the the place where so much of our cultural heritage happened there is no other city besides Chicago that comes close. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2375 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.72.34 |
Livedog2... yessirree ancient Rome... oh the debauchery..... | ||
Tomoh Member Username: Tomoh Post Number: 241 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.136.10.153 |
Jjw, it's painfully true that between the walkable neighborhoods of the Detroit area lie vast distances of auto dependence with few people walking and a lot of ugliness. Hopefully a combination of greenways and transit will stitch together various neighborhoods from the East Riverfront to Eastern Market and up to Hamtramck through Milwaukee Junction. Then it'll require much infill development of a denser type. Btw, I can't imagine a world that never had techno. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2376 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.72.34 |
Getting back on track.... Milwaukee.... both Detroit and Milwaukee have fancy top office towers... Detroit's Comerica Tower with a German Gothic top, and Milwaukee has a smaller version with a German Renaissance top. IIRC they were both John Burgee designs. Wasn't there a multi block indoor mall in downtown Milwaukee called Grant Mall? What became of that? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 976 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
So what "slum" streets did you visit? It's possible it was near to where I was born--8th and Burleigh, about two blocks west of I-43. But, I had no memory of the place. It was 1/2 block west of Borchert Field where the AAA Milwaukee Brewers played until the Boston Braves in the NL came to town in 1953. Another place of mine, which I can barely remember, was right across the alley from the former St. Leo's at 24 1/2 Street and Chambers. From there we moved into my grandparents' former farm house at 42th and Capitol Drive, where I lived until almost 14. Then, my parents poshed it several miles west to 157th and Burleigh in Brookfield in Waukesha County. That site was on the Niagran Escarpment atop the Subcontinental Divide, separating the Atlantic Ocean and Gulf of Mexico watersheds. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2378 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.72.34 |
Deja Vu Livernoisyard... back when I worked at Ameritech (in Southfield), my director had his office in the Brookfield Office Park next to the Brookfield Mall. And I remember the rise in elevation along I-94 nearby.... never realized it was the western edge of the Niagara Escarpment. | ||
Broken_main Member Username: Broken_main Post Number: 1139 Registered: 06-2005 Posted From: 69.222.11.226 |
I haven't been to Milwaukee in years. It makes it hard for me to compare the two cities. I would probably be biased anyway. I love my city(always have and always will). I will always believe that the progress of my city's future all depends on the dedication of its inhabitants. Ventura, I am glad that you are impressed by what you saw in Milwaukee. I do think that you are missing some things in your observation of Detroit. Lots of positive things are happening here in the "D" and I believe that it will be better sooner than we all think. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 977 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
The eastern edge of the Niagran Escarpment is Niagra Falls. This concurrent DYES thread doesn't specifically mention the Subcontinental Divide being in Brookfield, but its topic is directly related to it. [New Berlin is directly south of Brookfield, which apparently partially drains into the Fox River, and eventually into the Mississippi and the Gulf.]: Michigan shuts tap to lake (Message edited by LivernoisYard on July 01, 2006) | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2380 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.72.34 |
Somehow the Brookfield end is not as dramatic as the eastern edge... | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 979 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Water doesn't flow uphill... | ||
Pam Member Username: Pam Post Number: 281 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 4.229.81.95 |
Site with pics of Milwaukee buildings: http://people.msoe.edu/~reyer/ mke/ | ||
Detroit313 Member Username: Detroit313 Post Number: 112 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 12.45.2.184 |
I joined the post tooo late. Gistok I was going to correct Livedog on Rome too. Good Shot! I know the census ranks Detroit's Population at 9oo,ooo but it is a "CITY" and a real city. Not to take anything away from Milwaukee, but it is in a category with Indianapolis and San Jose. When a city in terms of size reaches 1,ooo,ooo and rode the waves of diversity Like Detroit, Chicago, New York, Philly, then you can start comparing. Everyone on the forum knows Detroit's issues. No American can say that it has been there do that like Detroit. BTW good post on Milwaukee. I was there right before they built the art museam on the lake. Detroit should've used that $1oo,ooo,ooo from the casino to update/add to the world's oldest aquarium.313 | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 500 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 69.242.39.114 |
Responding to something Livernoisyard posted way up in this thread-- I know of at least one house demolished for I-94 in Milwaukee-- my great-grandfather's. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 178 Registered: 04-2006 Posted From: 152.163.100.8 |
ItsJeff: "Oh, and the Cathedral Square and Thai food references really got me jealous. If only downtown Detroit had some sort of central park that attracted lots of people, maybe with some statuary, a monument and, I dunno, a fountain... with Thai food nearby.." I just wish we had a nice sandwich place downtown. | ||
Messykitty Member Username: Messykitty Post Number: 8 Registered: 03-2006 Posted From: 24.21.198.33 |
^^^ Sandwiches? You should try Milwaukee. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 1010 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.242.223.42 |
Milwaukee's old Suburpia brandname returns... New sub chain plans 25 Milwaukee-area stores The Business Journal of Milwaukee - August 26, 2005 by Todd Beamon Milwaukee's submarine sandwich wars has a new entry -- and it's a name from the past. A firm using the Suburpia name, the chain of shops that operated from the late 1960s to the 1980s, is planning to open its first store in the Milwaukee area in Wauwatosa Oct. 1, said Tony Frank of Nexus Realty, the Menomonee Falls firm that was involved in leasing the location. The shop will open at 10853 W. Blue Mound Road. Sandwich Kings L.L.C., which Frank described as a group of Milwaukee investors, have taken a five-year lease on the space. The group will own the Suburpia stores, he said. The company plans to open as many as 25 sandwich shops in the Milwaukee area over the next 30 months, Frank said. He declined to further identify the members of the ownership group, only saying he was not involved in the ownership. "It's a local group of investors who just have a love of the sandwich," Frank said. "They're a group of different business owners, and they're all old enough to remember the Suburpia name." The investor group is looking to expand aggressively, even considering sites in Racine, Kenosha, Green Bay and Madison, Frank said. "They're putting a full-court press on this," he said. The original Suburpia chain, known as Suburpia Sandwich Shoppes Inc., was founded in Milwaukee in 1967 by entrepreneur William Foley. It was known for such signature sandwiches as the Miles Standish and the Gold Coast. By the mid-1970s, Foley owned as many as 19 shops in Milwaukee, Madison and in other parts of Wisconsin with a payroll as high as $14 million. Citing credit problems, Foley filed for bankruptcy protection in 1981 and ultimately lost the chain. He later won Suburpia back through a court process before going bankrupt again in 1985. NCS-Milwaukee Inc., which owns Subway sandwich shops in the Milwaukee area, bought the stores in 1988 and converted them to the Subway brand. Foley, currently on probation for tax-related charges stemming from three sandwich shops he operated in 1991 and 1992, will be an adviser to Sandwich Kings L.L.C., Frank said. Besides Subway -- the Milford, Conn.-based chain now with 91 shops in the Milwaukee area -- the new Suburpia will face the region's industry leader, Cousins Submarines Inc., Menomonee Falls, which has more than 70 area stores, and Quizno's, with 27 stores. There's also two smaller chains: Jimmy John's Gourmet Sandwiches, with headquarters in Champaign, Ill., and about a dozen area stores, and Austin, Texas-based Schlotzsky's Deli, which has about 10 shops in the Milwaukee region. Wayne Chrusciel, who operates the Subway franchises under the name of Subway Development Inc., and Larry Weissman, a spokesman for Cousin's, declined to comment. Stacie Lange, a spokeswoman for Denver-based QIP Holder L.L.C., which owns Quizno's, recalled Suburpia from her Milwaukee childhood and welcomed the chain's return. "Competition is good," she said. "We have seen a migration from traditional fast food -- and it raises the overall awareness of the benefits of sandwiches." Paul Carrier, a coordinator of the culinary arts program at Milwaukee Area Technical College, said Suburpia also will face off with such chains as Panera Bread -- which serves soups, salads and sandwiches -- and Starbucks, many of whose outlets now are offering lunch. "Everybody's so busy, so they just need something to grab and go," he said. "There's competition, but there's not a lot of time for people to go food shopping and cook meals." St. Louis-based Panera Bread Co. entered the Milwaukee market in 1998 and now has 10 outlets. Seattle-based Starbucks Corp. has opened 34 stores since it entered the region in 1997. "The name recognition is going to help," Carrier said. "Look at how Subway and McDonald's are household names." | ||
Hysteria Member Username: Hysteria Post Number: 669 Registered: 02-2006 Posted From: 216.223.168.132 |
This Milwaukee hotel is similiar to how I envision the restored Book-Cadillac Hotel to look: http://www.thepfister.com/hote l_overview/hotel_overview.asp | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 2385 Registered: 08-2004 Posted From: 4.229.105.114 |
Milwaukee has old unrestored theatres, just like Detroit. Check out the interesting conversations among Milwaukee theatre buffs. They discuss Detroit, and the restoration of the Detroit movie palaces. Their argument is why they can't be more like Detroit! This is from the Cinema Treasures, the Milwaukee WARNER/GRAND Theatre (their largest old downtown palace, at 2,400 seats), an (as of now) unrestored theatre.... http://cinematreasures.org/the ater/1903/ | ||
Brandonz Member Username: Brandonz Post Number: 33 Registered: 04-2005 Posted From: 68.40.195.29 |
Many other differences aside, I would argue that former mayor John Norquist (now president of the Congress for the New Urbanism) was instrumental in Milwaukee's revival. A lack of visionary leadership in Detroit (and the larger region and state) does unfortunately seem to be part of the equation. I don't see any freeways being torn down in 'round here any time soon, unfortunately. |
